bad urethane experience-need info

I completely understand that your issue was caused by exposure to isocyanates and understand how serious this can be . I have not mixed up the issues of what caused your situation or the legalities involved. My mention of EPA regulations regarding paint, freon or other hazardous chemicals ,was made to emphysize the proper handling of chemicals regardless of what they are. 134a or r12 freon may or may not be hazardous to your health or the enviroment. ( Just get some in your eyes and see what happens. I dont think you would laugh.) . Believe what you want . Just because something isnt illegal doesnt justify doing it. Having a gun in your house isnt illegal but you wouldn't leave it loaded on the kitchen table with unsupervised young children around ????? Common sense , Due diligence comes to mind.

If you read my first post you would have seen that I mentioned there was an exemption placed ( at least in Illinois) in the law for the hobbist and for agricultural equipment. This has since been tightened and it quite difficult to secure these products here without proper IEPA & EPA documentation. I as well as other shop owners here in Illinois supported the legislation because of the awareness of those in the industry that foresaw these situations , after expieriencing similar workplace scenarios to your event. Legislators here thought our proposal to limit sales to professionals only was unreasonable and as such placed the mentioned exceptions in the law.

It is surprising that the company you bought your paint from didnt supply MSDS info , given the inherited legal liabilities involved with these products. Many PBE vendors here in Illinois will not sell over the counter due to these liabilities and have been told by the paint manufacturers to limit exposure to the sale of these products to the untrained through their sales distribution contracts. I believe these contract limitations are in all national sales contracts between the PBE vendor and the paint manufacturors.

 

WHOA !!! Don't be too quick to blame the paint .... It may be just a mechanism that enhanced a condition you already had.
The reason I say this is I suffered EXACTLY the same symptoms 6 weeks ago and am now just getting over them, and I wasn't painting anything but I was using something that could irritate the breathing a little.
I too went to emerge where full blood tests were arranged an E.C.G. was done, Stress Test was ordered, I think I gave a pint of blood for testing. The results ... All they found was my initially my blood pressure was up (understandably, I was in distress) The E.C.G had indications I had blockage in the lower part of my heart thus the stress test. The stress test showed my heart was fine except when going into rest after the workout it was throwing in extra beats now and again (weird). All the blood tests revealed (no cancer markers or other annomallies) was my bad cholesterol was slightly elevated and the good choleserol was low.
I'm finally starting to feel better, sleeping at night again, eating a little less (because of the constant gas I was experiencing) ,I still have the odd bout of heavy chest but not to the degree it was at first, along with aches in my back, muscles and joints.

I am thinking that what I had was a virus that was exaberated by the irritant. I have since done some priming and worked with the irritant again without any drastic effects.

I hope you get to feeling better, and keep me updated on your progress or any info you may discover on the subject.

Good Luck

 

One of my friends dads was a painter for a big car company, He had work there since the late 60s His dead now didn't get to 60, partly because of this. He was that bad in the end that he couldn't walk in the shed the next day after I had painted and I dont use two pac paint.

 

I'm really sorry for your mis-fortune. But ALL of this comes down to personal responsibility.

Every can of material we use these days has warnings on it. Automotive coatings (and other types of materials) are usually clearly labeled as "FOR PROFESSIONAL USE ONLY". The pros have the training on how to safely use and dispose of these materials, the pros have the required P.P.E. (personal protective equipment) and **know the limitations** of the PPE they use, and the good professionals (should) go through great lengths to minimized exposure to these hazardous materials.

3M isn't at fault here either. Those respirators ALWAYS allow iso's through...ALL of the time. Filters NEVER remove 100 percent of ANYTHING EVER.....its a percentage game from the word GO. Its the point at which the filters allow more than the regulated amount of bad stuff through that determines the point at which they are considered spent. You cannot smell iso's therefore there is no way for YOU to tell when the respirator is spent. THAT is why supplied air systems are always recommended over a cartidge respirator when working with urethanes and hardened acrylic enamels. Speaking of respirators, you do know you don't just toss them on and go - right? They need to be fitted and tested everytime you put one on....and even if you've got a little bit of stubble on your face they leak and are basically useless, RIGHT? Your mustache makes a great flavor saver but as a filter is pretty much sucks.

OSHA, the EPA and other regulatory bodies have plenty of laws on the books in regard to use of hazardous chemicals, especially automotive paints. If you do a search here on the HAMB there was a significant post on paint regs/small shop and hobbiests refinishing in regard to the mandated use of paint booths and impending legislation in regard to limiting access to paints/materials to trained and certified professionals only.

It comes down to this. Your sensitized to isocyanates. This occurs over time. You had to had been exposed prior to this one last time that got you good in order to be as sensitized as you are. Check out the info/training link below and you'll see that urethanes are EVERYWHERE as so is the potential for isocyanate exposure. The basic rule of thumb is to not use cartridge type respirators with isocyanate containing materials. Because you can't smell iso's there's no good way to tell when the respirator is spent, defective or worn properly. Supplied air systems are the only way to significantly reduce your exposure to isocyantes. As you can see from the link below there are many MANY ways to get exposed to iso's.....

Take some time to read this:

http://www.cdc.gov/elcosh/docs/d0600/d000641/d000641.ppt#265,1,Slide 1

Good luck with your recovery and PLEASE be more careful.

-Bigchief.

 

I'd have to disagree with you on that one. I spoke to 3M twice by phone, and they emailed me twice, and in all cases recommended those charcoal respirators as being totally effective against ISO's.

In fact, those charcoal respirators are not effective against ISO paints, at all- it's a gross misrepresentation- and puts the users' health and life at risk. Had I been painting that car inside, I'd be dead.

Read the email again.

#2- Eastwood sells and ships the paint to your door, but they don't send you the MSDS sheet with it. The MSDS states "maximum 1 hour with charcoal masks with adequate ventilation". If you read the health hazards on the MSDS sheet, you would not spray the paint under any circumstances- that's how dangerous it is. So they are also playing a game to some extent- we should know up front just how dangerous any product is to use, full disclosure. In this case, they are withhodling information by default, "unless you ask for it"

If they don't supply that warning on the LABEL OF THE CAN, and sell you the paint, they also share liability. So does the actual maker of the paint.

The problem is, it takes people like myself and others who answered here, to expose this paint for just how dangerous it is, and expose the charcoal respirators for just how useless they are against it.

the bottom line is, don't spray urethane at home. It should only be sprayed in a powerful downdraft booth with water in the floor grates, to eliminate and take away all overspray- and only with a supplied air hood and suit- and only by people with no prior respiratory issues. It's not a home hobbyist product at all ! Using urethane for a home spray paint job, is like taking a nuclear weapon deer hunting. Sure it will do the job, but it may kill the user as well.

IF 3M and Eastwood and the paint mfrs. put the FULL WARNING INFORMATION on the labels of their respirators and paint cans, in respect to urethane dangers- their sales would drop drastically. No one would want to use it. Most hobbyists won't spend $500 for supplied air respirator to paint one car- they'll use single stage uncatalyzed paints instead.

so the vendors and mfrgs. are playing the "wait and see" game. This paint has a long history of killing people and causing lawsuits against the paint mfrs. For some reason, rather than come clean as to just how dangerous the paint is, they chose to continue to stifle and cover up the information.

finally, it's easy for you to say it's my own fault- but your lungs, chest, and stomach have not been hurting and burning and in a spasm now for the past 10 days. If they were, you'd be singing a different tune.

 

actually it is the paint- I have the exact same symptoms you had ! Yes, you get a lot of gas and bloated feeling. I've been eating a bag of dried peaches a day, just to combat that. These chemicals not only hit your lungs, they hit your GI tract, your gut. That's common knowledge. You didn't have a virus, you have typical isocyanate poisoning symptoms, just like I had.

the recovery period can be quite extended. It sounds like you had a worse does than me, because I'm sleeping pretty good and it's only been 10 days now.

I'll post the MSDS sheets for this paint, you'll shit when you read them.

 

question, what were you using that caused that ?

these types of chemicals do more than just hit the lungs, they hit the central nervous system and digestive tract- your post is of interest, because much of my discomfort is my gut, from gas and bloating-

do these symptoms found familiar ? this is what I experienced too, I found this writeup online, and it applies to many chemical irritants- the highlighted ones I experienced- this was from 12 different patients


<TABLE borderColor=#ffffff cellPadding=8 width=576 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top colSpan=2>[SIZE=-1]Table I[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Associated Signs and Symptoms[/SIZE]
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="8%">

[SIZE=-1]Pt.[/SIZE]​

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="92%">[SIZE=-1] [/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="8%">

[SIZE=-1]1[/SIZE]
​

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="92%">[SIZE=-1]Shortness of breath, gastric constricture, loss of peripheral pulses, bruising, sinus, GI upset, head foggy, petechiae[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="8%">

[SIZE=-1]2[/SIZE]​

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="92%">[SIZE=-1]Chest tight, nose itched and burned, dizzy, hoarseness[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="8%">

[SIZE=-1]3[/SIZE]​

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="92%">[SIZE=-1]Leg aches, personality change, drowsy, nausea, vomiting, tingling headache, petechiae[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="8%">

[SIZE=-1]4[/SIZE]​

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="92%">[SIZE=-1]GI upset[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="8%">

[SIZE=-1]5[/SIZE]​

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="92%">[SIZE=-1]Malaise, mild GI upset[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="8%">

[SIZE=-1]6[/SIZE]​

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="92%">[SIZE=-1]Blue hands and feet, nonpitting periorbital and peripheral edema, depression, confusion, headache, dysuria, GI upset, petechiae[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="8%">

[SIZE=-1]7[/SIZE]​

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="92%">[SIZE=-1]Headache, depression[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="8%">

[SIZE=-1]8[/SIZE]​

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="92%">[SIZE=-1]Sinus, vertigo, urinary frequency and urgency, bruising, cyanosis[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="8%">

[SIZE=-1]9[/SIZE]​

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="92%">[SIZE=-1]Nose runs, neck tightness, periorbital edema, petechiae[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="8%">

[SIZE=-1]10[/SIZE]​

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="92%">[SIZE=-1]Headache, swelling, hives[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="8%">

[SIZE=-1]11[/SIZE]​

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="92%">[SIZE=-1]Headache[/SIZE]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="8%">

[SIZE=-1]12[/SIZE]​

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="92%">[SIZE=-1]Headache, shortness of breath[/SIZE]


if you go to this site, you'll see the chemicals formaldyhyde and chlorine cause this in just about all test patients- those chemicals are present in the urethane catalysts as well- these chemicals will also make your heart skip, because you're not breathing right- the lungs and heart are connected in the same system

http://www.aehf.com/articles/A18.htm
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Phosgene is a seriously deadly chemical. I rebuilt a unit at Bayer chemical that dealth with phosgene gas. Everyone wears monitors continuously. If you smell phosgene, you're in trouble. I don't remember the parts per million required for damage but it is incredibly low. One leak in another unit put 175 people in the hospital when an idiot electrician shut down an electrical panel at the main, causing a blow off.

Scary stuff all around. PPE!

 

these chemicals seem to have a great ability to get through any protection system to some degree, here is a painter who used supplied air, and still had symptoms

you need supplied air, AND a good spray booth, and a suit

 

this guy was also spraying epoxy undercoats, which is what I had used after the urethane, and that's the night I ended up in the ER

so the urethane and epoxy is both bad stuff, the urethane is worse. I realize this is a sensitivity issue now, I could probably paint my kid's models with a brush and Testors paint, and get a reaction now

here's the rest of the story on guy with supplied air. This is the same chemical I was exposed to, HDI

 

I was using a squirt bottle to spray regular vinegar ... a mild household acid. I inhaled far to much in a short period of time.
Still not good for you to breath any type of fumes. I understand your concern I'm just pointing out the particular paint isn't the only thing that can cause trouble, hell a spray bomb of anything can do it ... just don't breathe in any mists or fumes. ALWAYS ALWAYS protect yourself!
From welding gases, to smoke, to paint, whatever, can cause these symptoms if you overload your system with them.

 

Not for nothing but chemical safety and training folks on safe chemical use, handling and disposal has been part of my job(s)/career for 20 years. I'm a Certified Chemical Hygiene Officer. I'm not just talking out my ass and I don't care what 3M told you... OK....once again, respirators/filters OF ANY KIND allow a percentage of materials through the system at ALL times....including isocyanates. The one hour BS time limit is the point (minus what they call in the industry a 'safety factor') at which the respirator allows materials through at levels approaching OSHA upper limits and/or you've reached the maximum 'dose' of material allowed...this, of course, does not include leaks around the mask from improper fitting/use and facial stubble/hair. Which I'm betting you may have experienced. I train people on how to use these all the time. Unless they are specifically moulded/customized to your face they will leak. Didn't shave just before using the respirator? You got leaks. No full face hood? ....might as well have a chemical super-highway running through your eyeballs directly to your brain.

Filters/respirators ARE a time game and thats all. Eventually you get enough shit through to make you sick. The required P100 filters for isocyanates (they should also be supplemented with an organic cartridge - you DID have both a P100 and charcoal filter or dual filter cartridge pack installed, right?) controls 99.97% of 'bad' materials. If you've got a million particles (not too hard to do when your spraying) floating around then everytime you inhale you get 'dosed' with 300 particles that are getting through the filter. The regular 'shot' of 300 particles STILL gets through to your lungs. Keep in mind that respirator filter efficiency tests are done with the filter screwed to a fixture under ideal conditions.....leakage around the mask adds TONS of material to the mix. DON'T EVER BE FOOLED INTO THINKING YOUR TOTALLY SAFE WITH ANY RESPIRATOR. They do help alot and are very effective when properly used against most materials....but the ONLY way to go if your seriously conscerned about your health and safety is with a forced air system that includes a hood assembly and a full suit. Remember Charlie from American Hotrod? Materials absorb through your eyes and skin quite readily. It wasn't just your mask that got you, it was the lack of protection all around.

If you read the MSDS's from Eastwood and other paint companies you'll note that they recommend a forced air supply system meeting NIOSH regs TC-19. Its been this way in the industry for many YEARS and if you didn't take the time to get the proper information BEFORE using the materials then you'll have a hard time convincing anybody that these companies are at any fault.

They are not required to put the information on the can. Its the user's responsibility to obtain the proper use instructions (P-sheets and MSDS's) when using these kinds of materials....the reason being is that the industry as a whole supplies professional painters and manufacturing facilities who KNOW they are reqiured to have proper training and protection. I'm pretty sure that if you read the can labels they refer you to the P-sheets and MSDS's for information on proper use and and safe handling of the materials.

Your right about the use of these materials at home. Your dead wrong on your hypothesis about the companies hiding/withholding information and that it took folks like you to bring this problem to attention....the fact is they've been making urethane and hardened acrylic based paints for 20+ years. The hazards are well known, well documented and clearly stated in the product use and MSDS sheets. It is YOUR responsibility to protect yourself once you decide to take a product designed and intended for the professional/industrial markets (regardless of who's name is on the can) and use it in your driveway.

The warnings and information you needed is easily obtainable and should have been thoroughly read through before you began spraying. Nobody is hiding anything in regard to isocyante safety.....do a Google search and see how much information pops up. 3M says its respirators are good for an hour....good enough for what? Whats the difference between minute 5 and minute 55 in regard to filter efficiency?...what about minute 70? The PAINT (chemical) companies say to use fresh/forced air systems whenever using these materials when there is an exposure risk. The chemical compaies know thier products better than anybody and if they say to use forced/fresh air then you should do it. Period.

If a hobbyist is only doing one car a year then its probably cost effective and much safer to have the car painted someplace else. Chances are, however, there are many smaller jobs throughout the year that go along with the full paint job that would warrant spending the money on a free-air system. Also, folks will spend 2500 on the latest and greatest welders and plasma cutters and 500-600 on the whizbang spray guns but they're too cheap to spend 500 bucks to save thier lungs? Give me a break. The supplied air systems lasts for years, mine is over 15 years old and doing fine. 500 dollars for a supplied air system is cheaper than the cheapest paint jobs....and a hell of a lot cheaper than new lungs. I bet your medical bills are already over 500 bucks. That fresh air system is looking cheap by the time this is all said and done.

I AM sensitized to isocyanates. My dad had a restoration shop for over 20 years and I've been doing body work/restoration off and on since I've been 10 years old (I'm 41). I DO know EXACTLY how you feel. I have symptoms all the time, especially when I get around these materials....I still use them though, I just try to work through the job and get what I need done. I agree that the MSDS's and product use sheets should be included with the materials coming out of hobby-shop type places like Eastwood. I agree that labeling should be clearer on the cans (I'm a safety guy, I can't argue that) but I also firmly believe that we're all responsible for our own actions. The chemical people tell you free-air systems, the filter people say your OK "for a while". Hmmmmm.......I'd listen to what the boys who made the paint say first.

Again, I'm sorry to hear about your illness. I hope you get well soon.

-Bigchief.

 

yes people have died from inhaling refridgirents like freon. They need to be handled correctly as well. Like I said there are lots of things we need to be very careful about. Paint, solvents, refrigerents, all kinds of chemicals. Ventilation is very important. Quality respirators help with some, not so much with others. Supplied air is the best way and to cover all exposed areas. There have been many times that the government has tried to put tougher restrictions on all of these things. People fight it because they think it's their right to have access to these things. Industry fights it so they can sell more of it. People continue to have issues with them.

 

I'm with Pimpin on this, the new paints are bad stuff. Find someone else to do that for you.

 

OK I admit I have not read in their entirety all of the posts but one thing I remember and will never forget seeing about 40 years ago myself and a friend went to visit a guy..
He came out of his garage under his ranch house trailed by a huge plume of paint where he had been spraying his car - he had on a complete suit with a positive pressure oxygen tank...
Was he affected by the paint? Dunno but he took precautions... all I can say is I was impressed with his safety measures so many years ago....

 

Bigchief thanks for reply, check you PM- I sent you one. My replies in bold here

thanks

 

here's the section of MSDS from Eastwood for the PAINT, that says a charcoal respirator will work for under 1 hour

it's misleading- charcoal respirator does NOT protect you from ISO's- the chemical reaction occurring when the catalyst is mixed with the paint, is so powerful, much of it goes right through brand new charcoal filters. And in one hour, it's "too late"- you're bit by ISO's and hurting, and in for many weeks of agony and recovery.

again, this was NOT on the can- this was NOT with the respirators- this was NOT stated in person by sales reps of 3M or Eastwood- this is on the MSDS, and you don't get the MSDS with the paint, you have to request it by fax or mail afterwards- and by then it's too late, when you realize you're sick and need help

in a time when even cigarette packs state warnings that you can get cancer, etc.- why isn't this on the label of the paint can ? And if indeed charcoal filters don't work with iso's, why did they even say this on the MSDS ?

the truth is, these paints require FRESH AIR and a HIGH DOLLAR SPRAY BOOTH to be used safely- because how is the home hobbyist or average garage going to measure "relatively low levels" of ISO's for use with charcoal filters ? that would require test strips and expensive monitoring equipment- that no one even has

the answer is, shitcan the paint- I returned 2 gallons of this SHIT, and got my money back. And if I had the guys from 3M and Eastwood here in person, I'd wring their necks with my bare hands, for selling me this toxic shit and false/confusing safety info, and causing me this pain.

 

The MSDS clearly states "....organic vapor cartridge and a particulate pre-filter....". The organic cartridge catches the solvents and most of the nasties but the particulate filter (the required P100 for isocyanates) does the rest.....again, only to a point because filters don't stop everything. When you inquired to 3M that you were spraying isocyanates I'm quite positive that they should have recommended a dual cartridge system containing both a P100 and a charcoal canister. Most of these come as a single 'double cartridge' unit these days....back in the old days we used to stuff the outer basket of the charcoal cartidge with what looked like 'leak pads' that nursing mothers use to, uuhh, keep thier shirts from soaking through between feedings.

EXACTLY. This is the standard operating procedure in the chemical and coatings industry...of which you volunteered to experiment with in your driveway without proper training on safe use and handling. I know you tried to do it right by contacting 3M and reading what you had with the paint cans but there was/is much more to it. A simple BOCES course on automotive refinishing, a brief talk with most any autobody place or even a short trip to the local paint supplier with a couple of questions migth have avoided this whole mess. Training, training, training.....even old painters learn new tricks when it comes to chemicals. The stuff they used 50 years ago still made you very sick when improperly used.....its no different today.

Because there already is enough hand holding in this country as it is. Should every bullet have a warning tab on it that you have to tear off before you put it in a gun? How long has everybody known that cigarettes are bad for you? ....well before warnings on the packs, I know that much.

Better labeling would be a good place to start. Have you approached Eastwood with a proposal on improving their labeling system? It should at least say on the can to read the MSDS and P-sheets before use. IF it says that already then they are covered all around and it comes back to the end user to be responsible for obtaining proper training and obtaining the information on proper use of the materials.

 

Hey thanks man,

Except for the "religous" bit this nails my story to the wall !!!!

You've saved me years of therapy, eletro-shock treatments and several
prescribed psyco-tropic drug therapy sessions!

Now, what does the result of that last Roshock test really mean?

Swankey Devils C.C.
"Meanwhile, back aboard The Tainted Pork"

 

i was at the paint store the other day andthe manager was telling me about the new mandate for water born paints in 2010 any one know much about this? i thought it was for emmisions but maybe its also a safty thing. hope you get better scrounger

 

http://www.tcpglobal.com/kustomshop/hrf201.aspx

http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=19627&itemType=PRODUCT

notice you can read the tech sheet online, but not the msds

if you read the msds, you would not use the paint

I'll scan/post the msds sheets, and you guys will SHIT when you read it

this paint used to cost $300-500 a gallon, now they're having "fire sales" on the stuff for $80-100/gallon, and flooding the market with it, maybe due to the economic turndown recently- but the safety program is virtually nonexistant. In the past only pro shops were buying/using urethane, now they will deliver it to your doorstep by UPS just like a carburetor or gasket set. This paint is DANGEROUS SHIT- and should not be used at home. Wait until you read the MSDS sheets next

 

the paint tech sheet says use supplied air or charcoal mask

the msds for paint says use supplied air, or charcoal mask maximum less than 1 hour

the sheets for the catalyst say only supplied air

the label on the can says only supplied air

3M says their charcoal cartridge can be used just fine, per the prior email and 2 phone conversations

so which is it ?

these companies need to GET THEIR SHIT TOGETHER, and if someone sued their asses for a $100 million and put them out of business, the fuckers would deserve it

read the effects of exposure- nice stuff like: delayed lung injury- permanent chemical induced asthma, bronchitis, cancer, digestive irritation (which is the major effect I feel now), and the list goes on and on

why isn't this info ON THE CAN ?

why isn't this info SUPPLIED WITH THE PAINT ?

why isn't this info AVAILABLE ONLINE ?

why do they keep recommending CHARCOAL FILTERS when they don't work ?

reason- so they can sell more paint- not everyone wants to buy a $500 hobby air mask, to spray one car at home

 

sheet 2

 

sheet 3

 

sheet 4- had enough ? we are nowhere NEAR finished yet- this is only for the PAINT- we didn't even get to the catalyst sheets yet- getting the picture yet guys ? this is TOXIC SHIT- this is the sheet that states "charcoal mask less than one hour with ventilation"- what a fucking JOKE- do that and you go to the hospital ER like I did

 

sheet 5

 

sheet 6

 

sheet 7- ok now we finally get to the most DANGEROUS item (can you believe it gets worse ?) the catalyst