Register now to get rid of these ads!

Projects Kinmont brakes (thinking of taking the bull by the horns)

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Cowtown Speed Shop, Sep 19, 2014.

  1. Pops1532
    Joined: Jun 19, 2011
    Posts: 544

    Pops1532
    Member
    from Illinois

    You need to talk to a lawyer.
    Whether you make complete units or just service parts I suspect you'll be on the hook for liability.
    I remember someone winning a high dollar lawsuit against Firestone back in the 1980's after a 20-some year old (stock car) racing wheel failed leading to a crash that killed the driver. Hard telling how many times that wheel had been bent and straightened in 20 some years of dirt racing, yet the manufacturer was still liable. Liability laws (and the public's opinion of who should pay) have NOT gotten more friendly towards manufacturers in the past 25-30 years.
     
  2. Cowtown Speed Shop
    Joined: Sep 26, 2010
    Posts: 1,192

    Cowtown Speed Shop
    Member
    from KC

    Steel alloys and aluminum Alloys are alot better today than they were in the 40's So Making them as good or stronger should not be a problem...
     
  3. Cowtown Speed Shop
    Joined: Sep 26, 2010
    Posts: 1,192

    Cowtown Speed Shop
    Member
    from KC

    From the studying I have done today and talking to my cousin who is an attorney.....I do not think I want to offer complete ready to install kits. I think I am just going to make the main componets And guys will have to Source and assemble their own brakes from the parts that is available. I wasn't planning on doing the wheel cylinders anyhow, As their is already a guy who has made them and sells them. (I will give his info as long as he is ok with it).....I am Seriously not really planning on doing this for Profit reasons, My profit would be Having a couple of sets of Kinmonts for my hotrods. And like I said I don't think they would be something that would Fly off the shelfs. Someone suggested a preorder earlier, and taking deposits....Which would fine, But Right Now this is just an idea, I don't really Need to work off of someone else's Money....What I Need is Someone with Good Parts for patterns, And is willing to let them be used for patterns. And if there ended up being profit in this, They would be a full partner on all net profit. But what I have been running into is the Guys who have Kinmonts, Want No part of them being reproduced, because they are afraid it will hurt the value of the ones they payed up for.....Which I kinda understand where they are comming from, But They will always have originals and the new ones will always be reproductions. Anyhow I want to thank everyone for your input, And For anyone who is interested in being part of this project, Please PM me and if there is enough interest. There is No good reason why we can't make this happen.
     
  4. nrgwizard
    Joined: Aug 18, 2006
    Posts: 2,516

    nrgwizard
    Member
    from Minn. uSA

    Hey, CT;

    While I'm not interested in purchasing (way out of my price range) but hey, they *are* real disc brakes... :D , I'm rather sorry I don't have a set, as they'd already be coming your way, if for no other reason than to hose off the "it's gotta be original & repops shouldn't ever exist". Most of the cats of that persuasion, really haven't; given things much serious thought. W/o re-pops, this hobby would have very little participation, much less growth. W/o stuff remade, we'd be similar to the hi-end restorers at PebbleBeach, & about as many, w/about the same costs involved. WTF?, even the restorers need stuff repopped (call it remanufactured/recast/remade/hand-hammered patchpanels/whatever.
    As far as the lousy stopping, I'm guessing that pad material & lack of pressure has a lot to do w/it. I can't remember the name of the material, or mfgr that developed it, but it was for serious upgrading drum brakes, for those who wouldn't, or couldn't, go to disc brakes. Stopping ability was said to be equal to disc brakes. Downside was seriously quick wear-out of the drum - when used hard. Thinking this was somewhere around the late 70's->early 80's, maybe even mentioned in StreetRodder, or RodAction or some-such. Was aimed at the resto-crowd, but of course, would work just that much better for hot-rods. Oppsie, there's that improvement deal again... Lack of ability to get applying-pressure could be more interesting to solve.

    Go for it. I do wish you all the best, & I hope you can sell everything you can make. To paraphrase a political slogan from the 30's: "Kinmonts for every hotrod, in every garage"

    & IIRC, since the Tuckers used them, there's maybe 50 full sets or parts for them, that should have some interest.

    Marcus...
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2014
  5. Here is the set that was for sale at the LARS this year.

    LARS 2014 005.JPG
     
  6. Cowtown Speed Shop
    Joined: Sep 26, 2010
    Posts: 1,192

    Cowtown Speed Shop
    Member
    from KC

    Does anyone Know if they sold at LARS...?....Or Does anyone Know who the seller was and might have contact info?...On another note I dig the "No Change" center section, I have had alot of them over the years.
     
  7. Cowtown Speed Shop
    Joined: Sep 26, 2010
    Posts: 1,192

    Cowtown Speed Shop
    Member
    from KC

    Looking at many pics on the internet, It looks like Some backing plates were cast steel and some were Cast aluminum.....I wonder what's up with that?
     
  8. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,711

    55willys
    Member


    The backing plate is one of the friction surfaces the other being the pressure plate so it makes sense to make it out of steel or iron. The other option would be aluminum with an iron wear surface bolted to it, I like this option as it would be lighter. Jim Ford
     
  9. Cowtown Speed Shop
    Joined: Sep 26, 2010
    Posts: 1,192

    Cowtown Speed Shop
    Member
    from KC

    Yeah I saw them....And while I am not saying they are not worth it. But $10K just for fronts is not happening here!!....I could have bought a set of 4 for $12K last year...And I think someone said the ones at LARS was priced at $8K for the set of 4....Don't get me wrong I have watched them sell as high as $15-16K but that has been awhile, And Our economy was stronger. I don't want to really, but putting up $8k on a set of 4 to use as patterns is doable. Then when I was Done using them for patterns I would rebuild them and sell them to someone with big money who had to have originals and put that money back into my daughters college fund.....LOL
     
  10. For what it's worth....I still don't understand why no one has attempted such a re-animation before. Yes, the tech is antiquated. Aviation to auto, when both were in near infancy.....I get that. Yes, they are quirky......probably for lack of new parts, of late......but many have been successful in the past......you can read the 1973 article posted and figure that out.......author had a 394 Olds '40 Coupe with Kinmonts.......hope you read that.....he loved 'em......rain and shine.
    Demand? Give me a "brake" .....you can make a thousand and not make a dent in the market.......they will sell . Liability? Keep in mind that anything can happen....but if made correctly....all things considered....you are still remaking an 80 year old design, marketed for the antique market today. Lots of people making old design items today for same said antique cars.
    I don't see the mega cube blown hot rodder putting them on his dual purpose....land speed record/driver rod. There are better brakes for those guys. These are 80 year old disc brake infancy pieces. Some moron puts them on his 'Vette? Yeah I guess.............
    MAKE your dozen, twenty, fifty......whatever. Let us know how it goes. Don't sell any of them, if you're worried about liability....just make your items bad ass. Perfect patterns will be wanted by someone.....financially able to take the risk the small guy can't. Sell off your work then.
    I just want to see this shit made. How about that? Would love to see it.
     
  11. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,711

    55willys
    Member

    A lot of company's get around liability by using the line " for off road use only" Jim
     
    kidcampbell71 likes this.
  12. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 20,407

    alchemy
    Member

    I notice a lot of brake kits for sale by Speedway do not come with the spindle nut. Looks like they are not selling a "complete brake set".

    I have a pair of Kinmonts, and applaud your efforts, but have loaned parts to guys before and then they are gone forever. I won't do that again.
     
  13. Cowtown Speed Shop
    Joined: Sep 26, 2010
    Posts: 1,192

    Cowtown Speed Shop
    Member
    from KC

    alchemy,
    I can completely understand where you are coming from....But I would be willing to Give you a Nice deposit and only take 1 piece at a time. That pretty much assures you I am not going to disappear with your part, As by itself it would be pretty much useless. Just something to think about. I realize in todays world you can't trust anyone......But I was raised in a time when a handsake was good enough, And When I went to school they still whipped your ass for doing wrong....If you have Good parts that could be used for patterns And we could work something out that you were comfortable with. As I said earlier We would share in any profits.....I was going to buy the backing plates that were on ebay, But I started thinking about it and I would still need too many other parts for patterns. Also the guy was very honest and told me because they had been chromed, From polishing some of the fins were thin. No point in casting a part from a bad pattern...Ponder on it a bit and let me know if we can do something, No hard feelings either way.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  14. Doc.
    Joined: Jul 16, 2005
    Posts: 3,558

    Doc.
    Member Emeritus

    Hey man, I'll partner up with you. If that set from LARS didn't sell, I'll put up 4 grand towards their purchase. You'll have 4 grand in all the patterns you will need. Once you get through with the original set, rebuild them and get them ready to go on a car and send them to me. I'm not interested in takeing any of your profit. You get an original set to use for patterns without a huge cash outlay, and I get a cheap pair of Kinmonts. Let me know where to send the check.
     
    loudbang and porkshop like this.
  15. porkshop
    Joined: Jan 22, 2004
    Posts: 1,738

    porkshop
    Member
    from Clovis Ca

    Doc your the man!
     
  16. Cowtown Speed Shop
    Joined: Sep 26, 2010
    Posts: 1,192

    Cowtown Speed Shop
    Member
    from KC

    Doc,
    Your proposal
    Doc, Your proposal sounds fair too me. But I do not have any info on the set at LARS other than what has been posted, Hopefully Someone who Knows the seller will chim in.....I have gotten alot of interest in this project, I am still hopeful that someone that has a set will see this needs to be Done and jump in. I am confident I can get this project Done, But if Someone who has a set would rather take the wheel and do this, I am ok with that also. I just want to be able to have kinmonts at a realistic price, Instead of this $10-12K for brakes BS....Like I said before, My original plan was just to wait on Bob Wilson, No offense to Bob, But I would like to get these brakes before I Die.....
     
  17. Cowtown Speed Shop
    Joined: Sep 26, 2010
    Posts: 1,192

    Cowtown Speed Shop
    Member
    from KC

    Here is what I am thinking, If I had Parts in my hand, I could get a final total cost per wheel on the finished Componets for the brakes. Because of the amount of interest I have got, What I would do is maybe Presell 10 sets to guys. And because they would be preordering they would get their sets at Cost. (when I say set I am talking about a pair) I know someone mentioned quality, Well to give you an idea of quality control, The machine shop I will be using makes Cranks, cams, Gears, And machines many other cast parts for Caterpillar diesel Engines. So Quailty is Not really a problem.....
     
    kidcampbell71 likes this.
  18. Doc.
    Joined: Jul 16, 2005
    Posts: 3,558

    Doc.
    Member Emeritus


    If we scare up that set from LARS im in.
     
  19. if it wasn't for a guy making resto part (s).....where'd we be....?
     
  20. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,711

    55willys
    Member

    I would love to be involved with this endeavor but am having to pour my resources into my wide five disc brake kit and adapter covers and can't spread myself too thin financially right now. Thank you for taking this on as I know what it takes to make patterns and have things cast and machined. Jim Ford
     
  21. Cowtown Speed Shop
    Joined: Sep 26, 2010
    Posts: 1,192

    Cowtown Speed Shop
    Member
    from KC

    Lots of Support, And lots of interest.....Maybe these would fly off the shelf!!.....LOL Also it is a long shot but If anyone Has copys of original Drawings (blue prints) or maybe published literature On these brakes that I may Not have seen please forward it to my email at [email protected]
    thanks
    Doug
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2014
  22. Not that it helps....but I read an article about a month ago, that his grandson is an artist of sorts.....I believe a graphics designer. I'll have to find it again. Dusty family relics possible? Article quoted the name, and his grandfather designed them. I don't remember if it was Kinmont, or Milan as the artist surname.

    EDIT- Seth Kinmont is his name. Northern California sculptor, and tinkerer. Article is non-HAMB, but this paragraph is intriguing....

    -Kinmont, who studied neurology and studio art (at UC Santa Cruz, followed by a short stint as an MFA drawing student at Yale), is a native of Bishop, California, where his family is on its FOURTH generation of engineers and ranchers. His grandfather had the patent on the disc brake.

    Now to find him for you......
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2014
  23. Kinmont's grandson ( or someone claiming to be him) has posted on the Hamb before. It's on one of the kinmont therads here on the Hamb
     
  24. You should ask coolhand how pre selling worked - hint it wasnt very good to him
     
  25. Cowtown Speed Shop
    Joined: Sep 26, 2010
    Posts: 1,192

    Cowtown Speed Shop
    Member
    from KC

    Really it doesn't matter to me all that much about doing a pre sell or not, I only thought about it because someone else had suggested it and it made sense. I was only going to offer that option to the 1st 10 people who was interested in doing it anyhow. The advantage to being involved in the pre sell would be those 10 would be kinda like my investors in this project and would get their sets of brakes at Cost. And because they would be invested I would keep them in the loop through the whole process....As far as what coolhand done, I have No idea about that. But I will say one thing up front to any and all who want to be involved....We are all Grown Men, So I do not tollerate Cry babies or winers....Anyone who Deals with me Needs to be wearing their big boy pants, Or sit this one out......Bottomline is I am not a rich man, But as I said I also don't need to work off of others money to get this done. I can make it work either way. I am planning on seeing my machinist tomorrow or tuseday with as much info as I have already collected. Also "31vicky with a hemi" while I appreciate you warning me, Always thinking negative will never get anything done is what I have found out over the years. I used to let people keep me from doing things Because they would get in my head and warn me about all that could go wrong....But what about all that could go right??.....Me or Someone like me Is the only realistic shot that alot of us may have of ever having Kinmont Brakes.......Could I just bit the bullet and pay 10K for a set of kinmonts?...probably!!.....But I don't want them that bad. They are Just not worth that kind of money IMO.....I realize that I am probably going to spend alot more on getting this project done. But I should be able to recover my investment and still have the brakes I always wanted. And others like me will be able to have them as well.........I would much rather Someone with deep pockets Do this, But I have waited on others long enough, And I just don't have much faith in people getting it done.
     
  26. mike in tucson
    Joined: Aug 11, 2005
    Posts: 520

    mike in tucson
    Member
    from Tucson

    I will throw my 2 cents in regarding the experience of having designed and taken a product to market. If you decide to go forward, you should first incorporate a company that will own all the IP, the design, any physical patterns, components, etc, and the name of your product. You can isolate yourself from the product via a good attorney. Next, you need a competent CAD person who has the proper program and experience....no KiddieCAM, you gotta use what your foundry and machine shop uses. Figure paying a good subcontract CAD designer maybe $125 an hour. Probably, he will have maybe 240 hours involved. Also, he will have the need for measurement equipment....maybe a CMM. If your machine shop is friendly, maybe they can make measurements. Next, you need a set of Kinmonts to measure. You must have the ability to disassemble them and closely replicate the dimensions. No guessing, just measuring.

    When the CAD files are complete you can get a quote on the individual component parts. The castings AND the machined parts prices will be dependent upon the quantity......higher the quantity, the less the cost. These folks will want to be paid before you sell the finished product so be prepared to toss them money. Somewhere, you must decide how you market these items......HAMB is good but wont get you many sales. You also have to set up a payment handling procedure.....VISA? Remember that this is for a corporation, not your private account. Packaging is an issue and takes a lot of time.

    From my previous experience with a cast product that had machining and polishing, assembly, packaging, and sales, figure on spending at least $40,000 if you can run a tight budget and do a lot of it yourself. This is before you ever sell a unit. A copyright on your design is important if you plan on selling more than a few. A design patent is possible if you do a search and any original patents are expired....Kinmont probably didnt do a design patent since it wasnt common in those days.

    Figure that your cost per unit needs to be marked up enough to cover any wholesale account discount (usually 15% to 20%) and your overhead and profit. Your overhead includes your time, insurance, travel, misc costs, prototyping, and profit. IF you can find an entity to market them for you, you will be miles aheead....someone like SoCal or whoever can reach a lot more potential customers than you can.

    Good luck.
     
    BigDTexasKid likes this.
  27. Also "31vicky with a hemi" while I appreciate you warning me, Always thinking negative will never get anything done is what I have found out over the years

    Correct, a Pessimistic point of view is never productive or prosperous.

    What is the difference between pessimism and pragmatism?

    Pessimism is a negative view of the world, especially to such an extent that they view situations as being less favorable than they actually are. Pragmatism is an emphasis on pursuing actions that will be effective, regardless of whether they are emotionally satisfying, or in line with some set of ideals. The two are not mutually exclusive, as pessimism describes a worldview and pragmatism describes a method of solution-evaluation.

    Cowtown, don't let anyone keep you from doing anything that you want to accomplish, I've found thru the years that a pragmatic approach gets things accomplished. Sorry if you thought I was spewing negativity, not the case.
     
  28. Cowtown Speed Shop
    Joined: Sep 26, 2010
    Posts: 1,192

    Cowtown Speed Shop
    Member
    from KC

    Mike,
    Not sure what product you made and brought to market that cost you so much to produce, But I am not designing anything I am simply copying some parts that were handmade in the 40's. I am not planning on spliting Atoms......It is really as simple as Casting the parts And machining them. And heat treating. I don't know what kiddie camware You might be talking about, But For this project What I have in mind will do just fine. I know a guy who started out 8 years ago with a cheap harbor freight Mill, that he totally rebuilt with better bearings and put a retrofit Homemade CNC kit on it, And produced parts for Guys all over the country. Selling them on a forum much like the Hamb. He also did not go to school for this, he was self taught and believe it or not learned enough from youtube to Grow his business. He Now has about 250K in Haus Machines, (which is not much) But he still operates his business out of his home garage, And Runs (3) two man shifts around the clock. His parts Are praised Not just in this country but all over the world as The best Anywhere. (they are not auto related) He is One of those guys, That if it is Not perfect, He will not Stop working on it until it is.....He will be machining some of my parts for this, The rest will be done at the production Shop I mentioned earlier. As far as casting, I have not picked anyone yet, But there are plenty of guys here who turn out nice products,....As far as patent's is concerned And weather it is Right or not to do this, I have talked to "Bob Kinmont" which is "Robert Kinmonts Son" who shares the same Name as his Dad and is Now 77 years old. Nice fellow but doesn't want to be bothered with this, And He Gave me his Blessing with this project. Bell Auto Parts Bought the Inventory From Robert Kinmont, when he went out of business, (Cheap) But Never any patent's.....So since Robert Sr. Is gone...... Having the Blessing from Robert Jr. Is good enough for me.....The way things are coming together and moving along, I feel like this is the right thing for me to do....So Thanks for everyones support, And lets get this Done. I am not interested in hearing about anymore "What if''s" as I am past that point. Now we to focus on finding Some Parts that are worthy of using to make patterns.
     
  29. Pewsplace
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 2,795

    Pewsplace
    Member

    I like your viewpoint and individuals who pursue their dream - no matter what obstacles exist.
     

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2021 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.