how did they trick out the NASCAR Y-blocks back in the day?

Just like the title says. I'm looking for info on what the fellas did back in the day to make the Y-blocks DOMINATE the NASCAR circuit. I tried googling...must not have typed the right sequence of wording in, because I couldn't find anything...

any little piece of knowledge will work...I'm building my 292 up for LSR, looking for ideas. thanks once again. JL

 

Does this help?

http://www.rodandcustommagazine.com/tipstricks/74739/index.html

 

I think they used small block Chevy parts...

 

No, they were racing cars ...not boats. They DIDN'T NEED NO STINKIN' BOAT ANCHORS...

 

They never Dominated anything. For instance Tim Flock won the first Daytona race when it was on the beach in a borrowed 56 plymouth. That was before there was NASCAR. The only Ford that won anything that i remember was Tiny Lund in a 63 Ford Galaxy in 1963 it was powered by a 406 FE. I know they have some fans. But by and large Y blocks where and still are boat anchors. The ones that dominated where Guys like Fireball Roberts with 421 pontiacs and of course the Pettys Dodges. OldWolf

 

There was a guy back in the early 60's who did amazing things with his y-block including setting several bonneville records. His name is Karol Miller. Google him, there is plently of info on him and his y-block combo.

 

55-56 were the years the Kiekhafer Chryslers won a lot of stuff. But guys ran good in Fords those years. I have a great copy of a full page ad from '59 offering race-prepped 1959 Thunderbirds for five grand, ready to roll. I forget what motors those were using, if they went to the big block or not.

 

lots of no nothing nonsense being put up here. Apart from dodgy intake porting there is nothing wrong with the block. Those naysayers should stick to their crate SBC's and leave the hot rodding to folks like you.
There are heads that have smaller combustion chambers and there are tricks like improving the flow to the rockers,hard chroming rocker shafts etc . But all in all it's all typical hot rodding stuff and let us not forget that Doane Spencer,one of hot roddings hero's built a couple of red hot Y blocks .

in the meantime ,Here is a typical factory big block,Sir Garwain Bailie's Galaxie in 1965.

Y blocks were raced back then,this picture was taken in 1957.Australian grand prix.

 

Y-blocks were way before the 421 PONTIACS. You need to check the NASCAR RECORD BOOK...and if you have one of those 300hp supercharged 312 "boat anchors" I'll trade my boat for it!

 

Try asking these guys. http://www.y-blocksforever.com/

 

When they ran Y-blocks the rules restricted you to factory parts without modifications. Sure guys like Yunick (and others) cheated but the cars were basically stock... and Y blocks never dominated NASCAR.

 

Y-blocks may not have "dominated", but some folks need to take some history lessons: NASCAR was founded by William France, Sr., on February 21, 1948

Tim D.

 

The did fair in the mid '50's. Bill Strope (sp) was the Ford factory racing store. They had two cars in the top 10 in points in '56, Ralph Moody and Marvin Panch. For '57 two cars again, .

 

the great fireball roberts ran a 57 ford blown y-block and a 57 chev black widow dont know which one he won more in but take it from a old man them y-blocks that ford raced in 57 were no boat anchors they was fast,there is still a few being raced on the drag strips i believe in the carolina area and there still spanking a few butts type in f-code 57 ford and go baby go

 

Many used the Mercury Y block with the 2x4 set up and was right up there . They were very fast and did rule some tracks . Ran the Chevys down with no problems ! The Y block will do more than you give it credit for . Now days a blown Y block is pulling over 660 HP & NO NITROUS . There are some big drag racer using nothing but Y blocks in Texan & Ohio every year ! Don't under estimate the Y block .

 

What they did "back in the day" simply can not be duplicated today. Almost every trick you can think of was at one point exploited for the factory "back door" racers.

Production block? Yes.... But that dont mean it wasn't special. Just because it came out of the same foundary as the block that went in 'Granny's grocery getter doesn't mean they didn't spend extra time centering the sand molds, or making a particular part of the block a little thicker in known problem areas... It's also quite likely they were cast of superior [high nickel, low carbon] iron.

Production rods? Yes... But believe me, they went thru thousands of "candidates" before they picked out 8 of them that were spot on perfect.

Production crank? Yes... But you just know it was forged out of better steel than a regular piece, and it was ballanced to within a millionth of a gram of perfection.

Then they were machined and polished by elite gear-heads, and blueprinted and indexed and tested and tuned with the very best the manufacturer could offer.

I know this to be true... I used to be an engineer for GM, and I'v talked to a few of the old timers who were there and participated in the program.

 

those old 292/312 - just with a little breathing work, and 3 x 2's they were bad in my day - cam bearing would spin is about the only bad thing - they did not need a cam change, like a sbc to run right out of the box.

 

There were a few guys who had the knowledge and means ($$$) to build special stuff within the rules...Carl Kiekhaefer and Smokey Yunick come to mind. But most cars in NASCAR's early years were box stock...many guys bought cars off the showrrom floor, added needed safety equipment and DROVE the cars to the races.

Factory participation was limited...most guys were independents working out of their home garages and gas stations. Rules were very strict... you didn't get away with a lot of stuff. Every part had to have a factory part # or it was illegal.

By the late 50's things were opened up a bit to allow more aftermarket parts and modifications to engines and chassis. But from 1948 until about 1957 not much was allowed other than factory parts.


Great NASCAR history...
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-racing/nascar/season-recaps

 

Check out this guy, Charlie Burns. He's over on the y-block forum and all over the web too. He runs his Y up to 130 mph at el mirage and the like. That's the kind of anchor I want....

 

tough crowd...must be a Chevy guy...what about 1957?????

I think that R&C ad I have some place gives some good ideas. I was jsut wondering what kind of stuff they did to their engines that a guy like ME could do in my garage...mods, carbs, etc. I did see the superchargers....nice....I THINK I have seen Charlie over there, I'll make it a point later on

thanks

 

And that explains the "Black Widow" Chevys and supercharged Fords...............but "factory participation was limited". Blueprinting was still allowed too.

Tim D.

 

karol miller is alive and well up here in nor cal.he is very sharp on y block performance.and still has his ford that he set records with .

 

Yeah...go thru the race recaps of any early NASCAR race...how many of these guys do you think had factory money behind them? 3..maybe 5? The factorys made parts available thru their dealers but most guys couldn't afford to buy the stuff so few guys had the stuff.

And there wasn't any factory money for the most part until the 60's. The Big 3 pulled out of racing in '57 after some folks were killed in a racing accident. Chevy ignored NASCAR and USAC unitl 1970.... I was a Chevy fan in those days and I'd go to the races and only one or two competitive Chevys would show up...

 

And its only 258 cubic inch, Not an anchor.....

 

The Karol Miller story:

Monday, July 9, 2007
Ford Success Stories: Karol Miller ... Bonneville Legend





While the Chevy small block has dominated hot rod history, it might be said the Ford Y-block was the Rodney Dangerfield of hot rod engines. However, the fact that Y-blocks didn't get much respect was not because they didn't perform. Texan Karol Miller is a case in point and the extraordinary performance he achieved with his 1956 Ford Fairlane that he drove to the Utah salt flats made me realize the Ford Y-block had plenty of potential. Ray Brock captured Karol's innovative feats in this story from the 1962 "Ford Performance Handbook":

"Our first meeting with Karol Miller took place in the middle of the hot, blinding expanse of the Bonneville salt flats in August of 1956. None of the old time hot rodders who had been participating yearly at the annual SCTA (Southern California Timing Association) National Speed Trials knew anything about this soft-spoken Texan -- he just drove in one day near the start of the week-long meet and asked for an entry blank.

Unlike most of the other Bonneville entrants, Karol wasn't towing the car he intended to race, he was driving it. He and a friend had decided to see what the famous salt flats looked like so they threw a couple of sleeping bags in Karol's 1956 Ford Victoria and left Houston for the 2000-mile drive to western Utah. Karol was used to long drives though for his full-time job was operating oil exploration teams for his father's Houston-based drilling company and the test locations might be all over the country, from Louisiana to North Dakota. When the two Texans and the Ford arrived on the salt, there was already more than 25,000 miles logged on the odometer. A 3.23 rear axle ratio was fitted to the car and an overdrive transmission was used. The O-D was strictly for highway cruising, giving a 2.26 final ratio.

As Karol explained later, the 25,000 miles on the engine didn't hurt his chances at all; they made the engine nice and loose. During the few months prior to Bonneville, Karol had performed quite a few experiments with the car and knew that it was running good. The pan had never been off the engine but a fresh valve job had been given the cylinder heads. Ports and valve sizes remained stock. An Iskenderian E-2 camshaft and spring kit were installed and an Edelbrock dual-quad intake manifold was fitted with a pair of Holley carburetors. A Mallory ignition with centrifugal advance weights was used in place of the stock distributor which used only vacuum advance. Total spark advance was about 38º.

Karol used Ford cab-over truck carburetor bonnets on each of the four-barrels with flexible ducting to the fresh air vents which passed beneath the inner fender panels on their way to the passenger compartment. These ducts provided cool air directly to the carburetors for maximum induction efficiency. As the car speed increased, so did the air pressure through the ducts so jetting was complicated somewhat by the slight pressurization of the carburetors at high speed. Karol experimented with jetting quite a while before he found the right combination.

Stock '56 312 exhaust manifolds were used on the engine with a pair of cutout plugs fitted so the mufflers could be bypassed by uncapping the head pipes 24 inches downstream from the manifolds. The Ford chassis was stock except for a set of heavy-duty Monroe shock absorbers. The rear spring shackles were reversed from their normal tension position to a compression position, giving the rear of the car a noticeable forward rake. Stock street tires with most of the heavy tread rubber buffed off by a retreading shop were pumped up to 60 pounds at the front, 50 pounds at the rear.

Since Karol Miller was an "unknown" to the predominantly West Coast entrants at Bonneville, no particular attention was paid to the orange and white hardtop coupe as it pulled away from the starting line on its first run. Some minutes later when the speed of almost 140 miles per hour was flashed back from the finish line 2 1/4 miles away, many thought that perhaps a timing mistake had been made. The speed was unheard of for a Ford sedan.

Hot rodders hadn't thought anybody would have much success using the Y-block Ford engine with the odd intake port arrangement but, all of a sudden, here was a Ford with 312 cubic inches running in a popular sedan class that permitted from 305 to 488 cubic inches and it was beating almost everybody. The only car that could hold its own was a '56 Chrysler 300 with a 400-inch stroker engine. These two cars battled for the whole week before the Chrysler emerged the winner at 141 mph with Miller's Ford runner-up at 139-plus. By the end of the week, everyone knew who Karol Miller was and they were also starting to revise their thinking about Ford's Y-V8 engine.

Although Karol Miller had been unknown to the regulars at Bonneville in 1956, he had already earned a reputation as a sharp tuner of Fords on his own home grounds around Houston. His first Ford was s 1949 coupe which he bought new and, in his own words, "just played around with it a little to see if I could make it run better." Among the changes made were the installation of Merc crankshaft and pistons to enlarge the displacement to 255 cubic inches. Carburetion, ignition and other changes made Miller's '49 the scourge of the area and all those who had tried unsuccessfully to take his measure on some of the long straight Texas roads were mighty happy to see him join the Army early in 1950.

After Army duty, Karol bought a 1953 Ford with the then new overhead valve six. A short time later Karol was back in the thick of things after he'd milled the head to up the compression, installed dual carburetion, opened up the exhaust and a few other little Miller touches to aid performance. It didn't take the boys in the Houston area long to learn that Karol was back in circulation because the I-block six proceeded to show its taillights to all the hot flatheads in town.

The next Ford was a 1955 model with the 292-inch engine. Karol installed T-bird heads which had been milled and ended up with a compression ratio of about 9.5:1. A four-barrel carburetor was also used. A few more Miller improvements and the '55 Ford attained its proper spot as top dog in the neighborhood. After the '55 came the '56 Vicky and that's where we came in.

After shaking up contestants and spectators at Bonneville, Karol went home, made a few minor changes to the engine and decided to take in the 1957 NASCAR Speedweeks event at Daytona Beach, Florida, where speed trials were held on the hard packed sand each February. Since the car was not of current model year and not strictly stock, it was required to run in the Experimental class. Rough beach conditions held up the meet for several days before Karol got a chance to run but when the time finally arrived, the Vicky set sail for a two-way average of 140.070 mph over the measured mile. This speed placed Miller well up in the class standings ahead of many high powered entries from factory-sponsored race teams.

During the waiting period from Daytona to the 1957 Bonneville Nationals in August, Karol made a number of changes beneath the hood of his '56. First of all, he decided to play it smart and quit trying to compete against as much as 488 cubic inches in D class with his 312 and drop back to C class for gas coupes and sedans. The class limit was 305 cubic inches for C class. Karol took a 292-inch block and crank, bored .060-inch oversize and came up with 302 inches. 1957 cylinder heads gave the larger intake valves needed and Karol also fitted 1/8-inch larger than stock exhaust valves to the heads.

With larger exhaust valves, the combustion chambers in the head crowded the valve closely and would obviously cause restriction to gas flow. Karol opened the chambers out generously around both intake and exhaust valves to improve flow and the lengthened chambers were then wider than the cylinder opening. Carefully, the top of each cylinder bore was chamfered from the chamber outline to a point just above the top of ring travel. This eliminated the ledge at the top of the bore which extended into the enlarged chamber. All of the grinding to the cylinder head and block gave an extremely large volume in the combustion chamber. To get the needed high compression for maximum performance, Karol used Jahns deflector head pistons and then milled the heads .100-inch to reach the desired ratio of 11:1.

Karol then selected an Isky cam for the engine but this time it was a "smoothie" grind with high rpm potential and less torque than the E-2. Karol devised his own stroboscopic test stand to check valve action at various engine speeds. In the single stall garage behind the family home, Karol mounted a Y-V8 block on an old kitchen table, installed a cam, tightened down an old cylinder head with single intake and exhaust valve in one chamber, used a pair of lifters and pushrods to drive rocker arms actuating these valves, dropped a distributor in place and then drove the setup by a small 3 hp four-cycle utility engine.

A battery supplied primary voltage to the distributor which operated in the conventional manner but with only one secondary lead which was connected to a timing light. A V-belt from the small engine turned the cam fitted with two sprockets to give a wider surface for the belt to ride on.

With this setup, Karol checked out dozens of combinations in cams, springs, valve weights, rocker ratios, etc. Advancing or retarding the distributor gave stroboscopic viewing through the timing light. By the time late summer rolled around and Karol was ready for Bonneville, he had come up with a perfect combination. Both intake and exhaust valves were lightened the limit; an Isky Ford inner spring and Isky Chevy outer, plus an Isky Chevy retainer and .060-inch shims under the outer springs made the valve gear stable in excess of 7200 rpm.

The Edelbrock dual intake manifold was retained with four-barrel Holleys, but had been carefully matched to enlarged ports. Fresh air to the carburetors was doubled in volume with two large flexible hoses to each carburetor bonnet from openings behind the grille. The exhaust system also came in for its share of attention as Karol attempted to "tune" for maximum power at about 6000 rpm. Individual 1 1/2-inch pipes 32 inches long from each port extended almost straight out, through a long narrow opening in each front fender. A little rough on appearance but darned helpful for performance.

Since Karol still didn't have the finances needed for a second car to tow or trailer the Vicky, he again drove it to Bonneville for the '57 meet. Since the outer valve springs were almost coil bound with the high rpm setup, horseshoe shaped shims .060 thick which had been fitted under the outer springs were removed to lessen possible cam wear on the 2000-mile jaunt. Stock exhaust manifolds were also fitted for the trip.

When Karol arrived at the salt, the first day was spent installing the spring shims, headers, carburetor air ducting and setting the chassis up for minimum rolling resistance. Engine oil was used in the transmission, overdrive and front wheel bearings. Wynn oil was used to thin out the rear end lubricant. Rear shackles were reversed to raise the rear of the car for improved air flow beneath the car. Trimmed down tires with little tread rubber were used with high inflation pressures.

When everything was set to go, Karol drove the car up to the starting line and took off on his first run. This time, spectators and contestants knew who he was and all activity stopped while they watched. Through low and second gears, Karol twisted the engine up to a spine-tingling 7200 rpm and then shifted into high gear. 2 1/4 miles away at the finish line, the impressive sounding Ford approached rapidly and then roared through the timing traps at a speed of 149-plus mph. With the 3.23 gearing, engine rpm was about 6100.

The reason for the high rpm through the gears was to keep engine speed up within the best power range after shifting. If shifted at less than 7000 rpm from second to high, rpm would fall below 5000 rpm and the engine would not pick up speed.

Throughout the week of the '57 meet, the Ford ran consistently near the 150 mph mark. The only trouble encountered was a blown head gasket and once it was replaced, speed went right back to its normal. By the end of the week, Karol Miller had set a new C Gas Coupe/Sedan record two-way average of 150.097 mph for the flying mile. The speed was almost 13 miles per hour faster than the previous record held by a Chevy. The 302-inch Ford with the impressive 7000-plus exhaust tone was one of the sensations of the '57 Bonneville meet. (NOTE: To put this accomplishment into proper perspective, at Bonneville nine years later, a Hemi-powered1966 Plymouth Belvedere set a Class B, American closed cars record of 156.35 mph -- this with 124 cubic inches more than Karol's diminutive 302; with the vaunted Chrysler Hemi engine compared to the Y-block's supposedly weak "stacked" input ports; and with a decade's improvement in tires and technology! Oh, it was also a Chrysler factory-backed effort, compared to Karol's work on it in the backyard and drive it to the 'flats ethic.)

Again the following February, Karol took in the Daytona Beach Trials but this time he went to an even smaller engine displacement and then topped it off with a Latham axial-flow supercharger. The engine was a 272 fitted with Karol's special valve gear, reworked heads, an Isky blower cam, the tuned headers, Mallory ignition and the Latham competition blower with four side-draft Zenith carburetors. Running ten pounds boost, Karol shocked other contestants in the Experimental class by averaging 153 mph over a rough beach and walked away with the class win. The '56 Victoria was the fastest car on the beach in 1958. After the success shown with the blower, it was only natural for Karol to retain the combination for the '58 Bonneville Nationals. Since the use of a blower automatically jumps cars one class under SCTA rules, the engine size was cut back even further so that it would fall under the B class maximum of 259 cubic inches. Then, the addition of the Latham blower would again raise the car into C class.

To drop the engine displacement to 259 inches, Karol used a '54 Merc crank with 3.100-inch stroke and then bored the block .010-inch over standard '54 Merc bore (3.625) to achieve the proper size. Again the engine was topped by the head, valve and cam setup worked out by Karol on the table in his garage. Compression was held to 8.5:1 for use with the blower. With a smaller engine displacement than he'd run at Daytona, Karol contacted Norm Latham for blower information and switched to a unit that had fewer vanes at a slighter pitch for use at Bonneville. When Karol rolled onto the salt for the '58 meet, driving the car from Texas as always, the Ford was again the center of attention. After a day of engine and chassis setup, Karol proved that he still had the magic touch as the little 259 inch Y-V8 plus blower exceeded the 150 mph mark on the first run. By the end of the week, Karol had raised his C class record slightly to 151.997 mph and had a one-way qualification speed of 153.32 mph. At the 4300 foot elevation of Bonneville, the lower boost Latham did not put out the pressure Karol had hoped for so he actually went home unsatisfied although everybody else thought he'd done great.

The '56 Victoria was retired from competition after the '58 Bonneville meet and returned to strictly highway use with a 312-inch engine until late 1959 when with 120,000 miles on the odometer, it was sold to make way for a new 1960 Ford Starliner coupe. Karol really intended to quit racing when he bought the '60 Ford and it had the standard 352-inch engine with hydraulic lifters, power steering and even air conditioning. By the time summer rolled around though, Karol got the urge again and, in a matter of two weeks, put together an engine for another fling at the salt flats.

The 352 engine was bored .090-inch over to take stock Edsel replacement pistons. Edsels used a .050 larger standard bore for 361 inches and with .040-inch oversize, a total of 368 cubic inches was realized, placing the Ford in a newly established BX Gas Coupe/Sedan class with a displacement limit of 370 cubic inches. Karol then borrowed a few engine pieces from a friend who had purchased one of Ford's 360 hp high performance 1960 cars. The 360 hp heads were milled .030-inch to give a compression ratio of 11:1 and otherwise left stock. The four-barrel aluminum intake manifold was used and equipped with a '59 Lincoln four-barrel carburetor which had larger capacity than the standard Holley. An Isky RR8000 cam and spring kit was installed and these pieces were the only non-Ford parts used. Exhaust headers were the factory cast iron items; distributor and wiring were 360 Ford.

As always, the car was driven to Bonneville, this time with the added luxury of power steering and air conditioning. After arriving at the salt and passing through the inspection line, Karol drove it to the pit area, changed tires, removed the power steering and air conditioning belts and made a warm-up run. The car left the starting line with just a slight whisper from the stock dual exhaust system and a few minutes later word flashed back from the finish line that the Ford had registered a cool 150 mph -- with mufflers.

After bypassing the exhaust system and performing a little tune-up, Karol qualified for a record run at 158.17 mph and then set a new record average of 157.902 mph. When the meet was over, Karol slipped the belts back on for power steering and air conditioning and headed back to Texas. Early in 1962, Karol sold the '60 Starliner with 95,000 miles on the odometer and it was still going strong.

We talked to Karol in May of 1962 and he was driving a Fairlane 500 with the 260-inch V8. He hadn't made up his mind just what he was going to do for the '62 Bonneville meet, if anything, but he did confess that he had looked the Fairlane engine over pretty good.

If Karol does show up at Bonneville this summer, you can bet that he'll be driving a Ford product of one type or another and you can also bet that whatever class he chooses to enter will have a new record hung up before the week is over. With his slow, Texas drawl, Karol doesn't make much noise -- he lets his Fords speak for him and their voices are loud."

 

WOW! That's all I needed to know! Great read!

 

That was a great read Henry Floored, Thanks!

Good luck with the engine!

 

it depends on what c.i. y block you have in mind. i built a 66 fairlane on a budget back in the day. i bored the block .030 used 406 heads alum. intake (huge difference) and a 428 super cobra jet cam with adj. rockers. very fast car.

 

Thanks for posting that. I read it this morning and have been thinking about it all day.

 

421 pontiacs came out in 61 Y blocks in cars fron 54 to 62. trucks until 64. FE,s came in 58. Yes some Y blocks won some races But they never dominated anything. Put that same surercharger on any FE and a 312 wouldnt stand a chance. Yes you can get decient Hp from a Y block But it requires a lot of special fiddling and extra work and is costly. Do the same mods to a better designed engine Namely a FE and it will respond more favoribly. I have owned dozens of Y blocks Never had a good one at present I have 5 i would make someone a good deal on. All the 55 and 56 fords i had when i was a teen had FE,s One had a 59 high HP 352 interceptor from a cop car with a 4 speed . Outran every Y block i raced even beat a lot of chevys too.