Lets talk shops, as in buildings

[Tman]

Hey kids. I close on my own 5 acres of heavan in about 30 days. I have shops on the brain (even though I wont be building for over a year). I have been asking and measuring friends shops and have come up with a little question. What would be a good balance between size vs. heating costs vs. property taxes vs. building cost? It sounds easy until you start to really think about it. I am working in a pals shop that is 28x28 with a 10x10 tool room. That is enough room for a 10 foot brake, 6 foot lather, Hausefelt tubing bender, frame jig (off to one side) his A and my T (cars not body parts). But, he also has anothe garage the same size for daily drivers and such. Another pal has 38x38 for a shop which is even better but still feels like a garage. I think I might want bigger. We plan on building the shop/guesthouse in one step and live in it til we build a larger house. Then, the living area becomes a guest house and play room fo all my shit. So, what input do you guys have?

[Unkl Ian]

Nobody ever complained they had too much space.Build it bigger than you think you need.

[Crestliner]

I have a 40x80 with a 20x64 loft. You can never build one big enough. Insulate well and put heat in the floor. Tempature doesn't very much and when you under a car the floor isn't cold. The biggest expense is putting it in and you can save a bundle by doing it yourself.

[fatabone]

When you finally decide double it and that might be enough room. I've got a 30x40 and putting up a atleast a 40x40 with it. I also wish I would have put radiant heat in the floors.
Howard

[Tman]

Well, remember that my guest house area will be another 1000 square feet. I plan on making it able to open up to the shop for a "showroom" effect. A person always needs a clean room to assemble finished parts anyway.

And as far as cost, I am building the place myself, many years of building is worth quite a bit of savings to me.

[Kanadia Kev]

hey Tman. If you have any Questions on in floor heating, ask me. Ive put alot of them in. they are difenitaly the way to go. ttyl.

[Tinbender]

I'll be talking to the bank next week. I wasn't going to go further in debt, but WTF, I'm tired of paying shop rent. I'm limited to about 24 X 48 (gotta talk to the city to know for sure) If they'll let me I'm going two story. That is the cheapest way to get more room and saves some on heat.
Spend some time with paper and pen, and plan it out carefully. You've spent enough time in shops to know how important space planing is. I'm also going to get a 4 post hoist right away, along with an in ground. The in grounds are cheap to free, and are still legal right now where I'm at. The 4 post, with wheels will help with space, and doubble as an elevator for the loft.

[Tinbender]

Kanadia, how about some basic info on floor heat? I'm thinkin that would be a good thing to do.

[Kanadia Kev]

sure! well first off you want to put styrafome down. the 1 1/2"stuff, folowed by some thick plastic (moisture can travel up through the concreet still if you dont) then you want to put down some 12" square mesh (the flat stuff,, not the rolled up shit) the longest run of in floor tubing you want to have is around 300 to 350 feet. any more than that and it will cause head preasure problems. when you start putting the tube down stay 6" away from the inside wall, then on your second pass, stay 6"away from the first pass, on the third, stay 12" away from the second pass. keep the rest all 12" apart. Diffrent shaped rooms will require difrent in floor patterns. to tie down the pipe use plastis tie straps. i usualy put them every two feet. to make the header look good use 1" pvc 90 sleaves. any more questions just ask. im more than happy to tell ya how to.

[Tman]

Benco displayed some nice 4 post hoists at our show this weekend. They run $2195, I was Impressed.

[purple]

<font color="purple"> OK, do your research on the regulations. I know our county does not allow a second residence if not thier idea of acres per house allowed. And a friend down outside Manteca that after he bought the building he found out it was too big. They didn't allow a shop with more sq ft than the residence. </font>

[28rpu]

Check city or county regs, depending on where you're at, and find out at what square footage they require fire suppression. May not be a factor where you're at. When I built mine (county, but city impact zone) over 3200 sq ft required fire system, so I built a 3200 sq ft shop. Insulate well. floor heat's a good idea.

[Tman]

Ahh Purple, you simple man. This is ranch country! Folks generally have TEN TIMES the shop footage over their house http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Dont worry, I have generalled some projects, I know some of those details.

[Revhead]

we just signed a lease to rent a 30X50 shop and put two cars in there and realized it is gonna get filled quick. cars are alot bigger than they appear sometimes and if you plan on working on them you'll probably want at least 4ft extra around them.

[fab32]

I've got a 40'X80' 2 story. When I built it 8 yrs ago I could not imagine ever needing more room. Now I'm dreaming about a 30'X'80" addition along one side to catch the overflow. There is no such thing as TOO MUCH shop.

Frank

[Tman]

But what about property taxes? I dont want to be a slave to this place. Not saying that I am lazy, but life is too short to work too hard. I wanna enjoy my new place not work 80 hours every week to afford it!!!!

[Unkl Ian]

So build a smaller house.You will save time and money.

[customcarpainter]

Tman,I don't know how old you are,but when ya build your house,think about the long term things,such as how long it will take to clean,the usual maintenance issues,when ya get old whats it gonna cost to pay someone else to do these tasks,etc.Realistically,a person don't need a house as big as they think they do.Build small bedrooms for the kids,so when they go off to college,they won't feel the need to move back home to their comfort zone.They way I figure space needed is to open the doors on a car,measure,then add enough room to comfortably walk around the car,know exactly how you want things laid out.Spend a few extra dollars with an architect.

[Petejoe]

[ QUOTE ]
hey Tman. If you have any Questions on in floor heating, ask me. Ive put alot of them in. they are difenitaly the way to go. ttyl.


[/ QUOTE ]
Kanandia, My concerns over this type of heat is this.
The temps in Ohio get very cold and the times when I need it most is during the days that are below 25 degrees. The shop needs to heat quickly and the floor heat doesnt allow this to happen. Secondly, and most importantly. I have never seen a garage floor that hasn't cracked over the years of use, regardless of the installation. Any shift in the concrete will crack the floor piping and cause a leak.
Whats everyones feeling on this?

[atch]

tman,

You got access to AutoCAD anywhere? If so I'll e-mail you a couple of versions of a 50'x100' shop/house I designed. I never built it, 'cause I found and bought the place where I'm at now, which already existed.

[Bugman]

Anybody here desing buildings? My school shop is supposed to have a paint booth. I have the booth and a concrete slab, but no building to put it in. It needs to be a special building because of the paint booth. Special ventalation and whatnot. The estimate just to have somebody design the building was $1000, and we can't afford that. Can anyone help?

-Shop Teacher Jeff

[CherryBlossom]

[ QUOTE ]
I've got a 40'X80' 2 story. When I built it 8 yrs ago I could not imagine ever needing more room. Now I'm dreaming about a 30'X'80" addition along one side to catch the overflow. There is no such thing as TOO MUCH shop.

Frank

[/ QUOTE ]

Frank.
Do I need to spank you?
You're shop is friggin HUGE. Most of these guys would die to have what you do http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Dan]

Trent I am sure you have heard this before but here is a piece of advice a contractor friend gave me. Design the inside of the house (shop etc.) first and then design the exterior to go around it. Dont come up with an exterior first and then try to make your stuff fit in it...

Oh by the way, where is the land if I can ask?

[TomH]

Yea T-man what Dan said, you in town or out in the country??

Went out to eat with Gene ( the guy with the 54 vett at your show) last night. He showed me pics of Carl's and A &amp; A's place. Two more places we could go next summer.

[manyolcars]

http://www.metalhomes.com/Library/garage5.htm

[just steve]

T --

Is this a personal shop, or a business space? If it's personal, I'd build it so there was one heated area with room to work on one car, plus room for shop tools. This would probably equate to about a 3-4 car garage space. One stall for hoist, one stall for chassis, one for body, one for equipment/work area. High enough ceiling for a hoist. Any other enclosed space that's just storage can be cold in the winter.

Don't spend the money on more space -- it'll just get filled with shit. Spend the bucks on extras and details that will make the space more useable.

I want to build our next house -- and there's a book out called "The Not So Big House" that has a lot of ideas on building smaller but more interesting and more liveable homes. A lot of the thinking applies to shop space too.

First decide what you need to do in the shop. Then design it from the inside out, and concentrate on efficiency and useability, not sheer size.

My two scents.

Steve.

[Tman]

Steve, you are thinking like me, scary huh? atch, TomH, we will NEVER go to Carls or Dickhead Dans (the OTHER A&amp;A). The next time I go there is for his estate sale, hopefully soon....oh thats cold! Tell Gene I dug his Vette, my fav of the show.

And the land is 25 miles out in the country, it will be a personal shop. I have a buddy that is an architect and one that is a structural engineer. I like the idea of a smaller shop with more tools! Hoist, lath, mill etc.......

We are doing straw bale construction which takes little to heat, I dont know the heat source yet, need to run some #s on costs. Kanadia, might look ya up.

Thanks for all the info so far, keep it coming!!!!

[48_HEMI]

If you build twice as big as you think you need! you'll end up with a shop thats half of what you'll want!!

The most important thing is partitions. A couple of 30X40 work areas (one clean and one you can dirty) then a big storage area is required to keep a clean room clean. If you have good ventilation and heat its easier if you only have to heat sections instead of a whole building.

I had a 80X144 and only used 30X40 area.I now have a 30x50 and can't get a second car in because I have no stoarge area. It sucks big time to have project cars sitting out side. I've sold 12 cars and still have 10 sitting outside for sale

I guess my suggestion is no matter what size shop you have put up at least two walls even if there only one or two stalls and half of the total size should be storage, that you can put racks floor to ceiling and store projects or finished cars. so you don't have to compromise your work areas and you have at least one clean room and one fab and bondo room http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I've got a 32 by 40 and love it. I wish I had room to store more cars but for working it is perfect. I devided it into two rooms. The wall between the rooms is insulated with an insulated double door in it. I can shut the doors and shut the heat off to that side if I'm not using it. The bathroom is the same way. I can just heat it if I don't plan on working in the shop. The small room is 15 by 32. I use this room for painting and other misc. stuff. The big room is 22 by 40. I wanted a big area to work on one car and have plenty of room for equipment. The shop has 10 foot ceilings and the windows are mounted high on the wall. The best part is I have a second floor for storage.

Here's a pic of my big room with my RPU and Larry's truck in it.
Clark

[Leon]

I built a 36 x 48 and went 2 story on the one side to give me enough height in the main bay for a hoist and a 4 post lift. Upstairs I have laundry, bathroom, storage, etc. and under it is the wood shop, machine shop, and cleen room. I put the compressor and paint storage on the other side in a room with 2 lavers of 5/8 drywall for fire protection, plus the walls in that room were constructed like a motel with staggered 2x4s so not to transfer the compresser noise to the outside.

[Cword]

PeteJoe

I'm running floor heat here in Calgary, at -30 I've found it to be a real treat. During the winter I thermostat the garage at 5C that's about 40 degrees F. I do that so that chemicals, (paints etc) won't freeze. The shop is comfortable for evening work in a shop coat. In fact it's more comfortable than my fathers similar sized shop with an overhead blast furnace. In dad's shop even when the room gets up to temperature your feet still are cold and ache because of the frozen floor. In mine the floor is comfortable, even feels warm to the touch, and the slightly cooler air temp is nice to work in especially once youget used to wearing a shop coat or other "layer". On weekends I bump the temp (usually friday night) for a T-shirt environment.
I've also found the temperature recovers better after moving a car in on cold days. the meltwater off the car drys quickly on the wrm floor and the "warm slab" causes the overall shop temperature to recover better than dad's shop as well.

Frost heave of the floor, is minimized because of the warm floor. I also expet the three layer pipe I used (Kitek) would require quite a shear to break. You can also plan ahead when building by using smaller loops (zones) so that if a floor disaster were to occur you only loose one zone, rather than a whole floor. I've no experience but have consulted with a plumber who had experience repairing broken loops in an existing floor, it is possible to repair these installatins in case of a badley aimed floor anchor or heave.

mike

[zman]

My main room is about 30x60 with a 30x12 room in back and a 10x60 of storage on the side. The bigger it is the quicker it fills up. The fuller it gets the more deals you find. Go with what you want. Personally I want more....

[Rocknrod]

In my opinion if your going to build a shop you need room for 9 cars. 9 cars worth of space means you can have 2 cars apart (frame in one spot... running gear in the other... body in the other.)

So, ya need to figure out the length of 3 cars plus 3 feet of room in between each... across the same as the depth on this, so you could park em either way. Then you'll want to figure out the size of the parts storage racks and size of the bench/tool organazation area. Do ya want a mini-library and a bathroom/shower? Extra bunk and fridge? Coffee pot? Blender (southern guys know what I'm talking bout... right 'rita http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

You want to have enough room so that you can pull a car in with projects going at the same time... I am starved for space in one direction but not the other... 3 cars wide but 18 feet deep. It doesnt work all that well, and I'm thinking about building onto the front of it. More then likely I'll end up with an addition on two sides: one coming off the front, the other going off the 3rd bay to the back so I have one spot thats 3 cars deep.

Electrical supply... you want em low enough that you can plug in your light while on the creepr, ya want em high enough ya dont blow your back out while bending down! You might want an air drop line going by every electrical plug...

One thing alot of guys dont consider is how much driveway they have in front of the garage... if ya need to pull in a BIG something (that'll fit in the door that is...) You need more turn around room. Put an outlet on either side of every door, water spickets on the outside, airlines of the inner part of the wall.

You dont want to ever have to grab an extension cord while in your shop... and dont want to drag a hundred feet of hose out so you can get out the front door and on the other side of the car parked right at the door.

WORK BENCHES! I'm starved for work benches... because of the 18 foot depth. I cant put a bench in front of the cars.. I cant put em on the sides cause the building isnt wide enough to accomodate a bench on either end and still park cars. Once I get the place cleaned out I'll be able to call it a 2 car garage + benches and racks. Until then I've got one big bench... the floor.

Build it bigger then you need, bigger then you can afford... and with air/electrical every arm span (measure with your hands spread out as far as ya can... gives ya a good idea of how far apart then need to be!) Even closer on the benches!

LIGHTS! All over the place... you want it bright enough that you need sun glasses on to walk in at night... you want it so bright that the shadows hide! Put the lights over your benches on chains so you can drop em down or pull em up.

If your going to pull alot of engines... you might want to put in some I-beams over head and make the structure your cherry picker... conserves floor space! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Hope I added something that helps to your argument with the wife http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[TagMan]

Don't matter what size it is.....as George Carlin said, "Stuff multiplies to fill the available space". http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[shoebox72]

T, It sounds like you will have quite the set-up when you're done, but whatever you do don't go with a flat roof. The place I rent has an almost flat roof (slightly pitched) and it's always giving me trouble. If i can ever afford a garage of my own it wont have a flat roof. A friend of mine has a barn style roof on his garage &amp; there is plenty of room for work &amp; storage on the 2nd floor.

Billy

[Tman]

Right now, SoWhats dimensions fit my layout the best. I am thinking 2 story, 32x40 with the lower level cut into the hill on 3 sides. Nice and cool in the summer!

[mr.midnite]

my garage is 26' x 42", but built into a hill. First level has 10" poured walls and 10' ceilings. I used floor trusses so it is completely open, no poles. Second level has 10' ceilings which will be my shop and then used Gambrel roof trusses for the third level which has 8 1/2' ceilings. All framed 2" x 6". Close to 3000 square feet. Here is the start with the walls poured and floor trusses

[zman]

Whatever you do, if you are building this as a new building make the roof high enough for a lift. Really it'll change your life....

[fuel pump]

You could always build one like this (not mine)

[mr.midnite]

voila, it's up, just needing siding and a roof at this point

[mr.midnite]

one more,

[tucker]

What would be the minimum ceiling height for a lift? I guess it might depend on how much you want to squat.

[Tman]

The Benco lifts and Backyard Buddies need 12 feet.

Thanks for the pics Mr Midnight! I stopped by the lumberyard tonight and talked to my Contractor Rep. I found that floor trusses come in 32 feet for a 24" deep version and 26 feet for teh 18 inchers. I am liking your measurements as well.

[mr.midnite]

tman,
mine are 18" and spaced 19 3/4" on center. I also doubled up the trusses over the door header. About 12' in from the front I ran a steel I-beam across and set it on the top plate and have a chain fall which eliminates a cherry picker and the room it takes up. I could have gone bigger but this size works well for me. It seems the more space I create the more stuff I collect. You have to draw the line somewhere. Let me know if I can be of any assistance to you,
Robert

[TagMan]

[ QUOTE ]
What would be the minimum ceiling height for a lift?

[/ QUOTE ]

12', floor to ceiling, if you want to be able to stand up straight under the vehicle.

[k9racer]

When you build shop place doors where you get the least wind in cold weather.Build in such a way you can easly put on additions.You can not have to many lights or elec recpticals or air outlets. a large mop sink is nice.One of the other things us older guys will tell you is put in larger width doors and as few steps to enter the house this way you will have room for a wheel chair to move around and get in the house. Plan ahead sometimes you can be injured or unable to walk.

[Rocky]

You guys all suck.......

[junkmonger]

Hey Atch, I'd be interested in that ACAD drawing, if you don't mind sending it to me. I'm planning on building a shop next year. send it in a PM if you would.

[Rocknrod]

[ QUOTE ]
You guys all suck.......

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey that wasnt very nice...

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Revhead]

ok Tman..here's the pics as promised...a little late though, sorry.

both are around 1500 sq ft.

1st one is 25X55, there's another car space between the '39 and where I was standing.
http://www.cliftongarage.com/images/CGshop1.jpg
2nd one is 30x50
http://www.cliftongarage.com/images/cgshop2.jpg

[PEDDRO]

midnite: where's the windows?

zman: whatcha building there? Caddy towncar?

[mr.midnite]

PEDDRO,
if there were windows someone might look in and think they need my stuff more than me. Windows on garages give thieves something to think about.

My first shop didn't have windows. It drove me crazy. Makes you feel like you're in a cave. Sunlight is good! Mount the windows high so it's hard to see in them. If they're mounted high you can still put equipment in front of them.
Clark

[The_Monster]

Id say ace all windows for theft reasons and install skylights. I love the sunlight too but theres nothing better than useful sunlight... and not having your junk stolen! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Rocknrod]

[ QUOTE ]
ok Tman..here's the pics as promised...a little late though, sorry.

both are around 1500 sq ft.

1st one is 25X55, there's another car space between the '39 and where I was standing.
http://www.cliftongarage.com/images/CGshop1.jpg
2nd one is 30x50
http://www.cliftongarage.com/images/cgshop2.jpg


[/ QUOTE ]

Nice stingray! (You seen www.corvetteforum.com (http://www.corvetteforum.com) ?)

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Tman]

Nice, thanks for the pics! I just got off the phone with a buddy in Aspen Colorado that just happens to be an Architect!!! I get my house drawn up GRATIS! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Revhead]

thanks for the link Rocknrod, Hadn't been top that one yet, but it look very useful.

[mr.midnite]

Clark, maybe out in nowhere, PA. that would work but here in Detroit thievery is considered a skilled trade.

[Rocknrod]

[ QUOTE ]
thanks for the link Rocknrod, Hadn't been top that one yet, but it look very useful.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[sentinelT]

Loose touch for a couple weeks and you go out and buy up a bunch o land, you gotta drop me a line and fill me in on the details, especially so i know when i can come help my bro out...

[Tman]

Hey lil bro, you know my # gimme a call. BTW, met with bankers all afternoon, what a drag,

Now isnt this dysfunctional? Talk about a tight family http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Southfork]

Tman, after i left the Dakotas and moved to Idaho, I decided to design and build my house and shop at the same time so they would complement each other. I also wanted to live in the second story above the shop while i finished building the home. So, I built a two story 25 X 52 shop with a 3-bedroom guest quarters above it. The shop has 4 garage doors and a person door in front that also leads to the stairway to the apartment above. The shop is connected to the house to get around county ordinances against building more than one dwelling per 5 acre parcel. It works great. Heating the shop also heats the 1,000+ sq ft apartment and visa versa.