View Full Version : Flathead Jack Is A Crook!


luckystattoos
01-12-2006, 01:39 PM
Guys Whatever You Do, Do Not Give Your Hard Earned Money To This Guy. I Purchased A Flato Kit And A Bellhousing/starter Plate From Him So I Could Put A C4 Into My 52 Merc. The Starter Plate Cost Me $220.00 And It Does Not Work. It Angles The Starter And Jams Into The Flyswheel. He Refuses To Help Me, AND Will Not Exchange The Part. He Told Me He Is Done With This Conversation And I Am Wasting His Time. Flathead Jack Schafer Is A Crook!

plan9
01-12-2006, 01:42 PM
Guys Whatever You Do, Do Not Give Your Hard Earned Money To This Guy. I Purchased A Flato Kit And A Bellhousing/starter Plate From Him So I Could Put A C4 Into My 52 Merc. The Starter Plate Cost Me $220.00 And It Does Not Work. It Angles The Starter And Jams Into The Flyswheel. He Refuses To Help Me, AND Will Not Exchange The Part. He Told Me He Is Done With This Conversation And I Am Wasting His Time. Flathead Jack Schafer Is A Crook!

angles the starter in which axis? up, down? lateraly?

perhaps shave some metal off to fit...

we are in the business of hot rodding.. make it fit ;)

riverrat
01-12-2006, 01:45 PM
for 220.00 it ought to fit.

riverrat

53sled
01-12-2006, 01:45 PM
Maybe it is the wrong nose cone? I won't pretend to know the situation, but when I worked the parts counter I recall Different ford starters for stick/auto on most applications. could be a simple mistake

Thirdyfivepickup
01-12-2006, 01:46 PM
angles the starter in which axis? up, down? lateraly?

perhaps shave some metal off to fit...

we are in the business of hot rodding.. make it fit ;)


Is the starter itself (on the mounting point) flat? I had a friend with a 400 Chevy that had a bum mini starter that had a bur on it and cocked it.

RenoRat
01-12-2006, 01:46 PM
That guy is a Dick.. just speakin from personal expierence but.. take a grinder to that adapter and grind a lil of it till it doesnt bind anymore then smoth it over with some sand paper.. done!!! fire it up and drive and call it a learning expierence

plan9
01-12-2006, 01:50 PM
for 220.00 it ought to fit.

riverrat

unfortunately, life doesnt always work that way.

luckystattoos
01-12-2006, 02:06 PM
YES HE IS A DICK! THE PLATE IS STAMPED STEEL AND ANGLES THE NOSE DOWN, WHICH BINDS BAD. UNFORTUNATELY I WILL HAVE TO PURCHASE ANOTHER, NO WAY TO GRIND ENOUGH OFF TO MAKE IT WORK. I WOULD NEVER OF PURCHASED PARTS FROM HIM UNDER HIS RECCOMENDATIONS KNOWING I WOULD BE TREATED IN SUCH A MANNER.:mad:

fuel pump
01-12-2006, 02:09 PM
That guy is a Dick.. just speakin from personal expierence but.. take a grinder to that adapter and grind a lil of it till it doesnt bind anymore then smoth it over with some sand paper.. done!!! fire it up and drive and call it a learning expierence
I've heard that time and time again about him. When I built my flathead I got everything from Red and when something wasn't right they fixed it. No questions asked.:)

plan9
01-12-2006, 02:10 PM
YES HE IS A DICK! THE PLATE IS STAMPED STEEL AND ANGLES THE NOSE DOWN, WHICH BINDS BAD. UNFORTUNATELY I WILL HAVE TO PURCHASE ANOTHER, NO WAY TO GRIND ENOUGH OFF TO MAKE IT WORK. I WOULD NEVER OF PURCHASED PARTS FROM HIM UNDER HIS RECCOMENDATIONS KNOWING I WOULD BE TREATED IN SUCH A MANNER.:mad:

well, if you end up selling the adapter give me a shout.

fuel pump
01-12-2006, 02:12 PM
That guy is a Dick.. just speakin from personal expierence but.. take a grinder to that adapter and grind a lil of it till it doesnt bind anymore then smoth it over with some sand paper.. done!!! fire it up and drive and call it a learning expierence
I've heard that time and time again about him. When I built my flathead I got everything from Red and when something wasn't right they fixed it. No questions asked.:)

Flatdog
01-12-2006, 02:15 PM
YES HE IS A DICK! THE PLATE IS STAMPED STEEL AND ANGLES THE NOSE DOWN, WHICH BINDS BAD. UNFORTUNATELY I WILL HAVE TO PURCHASE ANOTHER, NO WAY TO GRIND ENOUGH OFF TO MAKE IT WORK. I WOULD NEVER OF PURCHASED PARTS FROM HIM UNDER HIS RECCOMENDATIONS KNOWING I WOULD BE TREATED IN SUCH A MANNER.:mad:
Calm down boy.Jack ain't on my A list but shouting like a spoilded kid won't solve the problem.If it is a FlatO kit its a good one .Post some drawings or pictures and we will walk you through it.

Bruce Lancaster
01-12-2006, 02:16 PM
How about trying flat-o matic directly?

VonXulu
01-12-2006, 02:20 PM
I bought some stuff from him a few years back and had a conversation with him, he wasn't so much a dick as he was real egotistical, I won't buy from him again. As for the product, try contacting Flat-O and explaining the situation to them, they may replace your part directly, be sure to mention how one of their distributers is a class act asshole, they may have words for him. Most reputable companies don't want that kind of association. BTW I bought the Speedway kit, it works just fine. Another thought is if you paid with a credit card, sometimes you get consumer protection. If the part was faulty, they may reimburse you? Just a thought.

RenoRat
01-12-2006, 02:24 PM
I have to say it was easy to but and ask any questions from reds .. I totally agree.. ya gotta watchout for people livin walnut creek $$$$ big bucks and dont give away fucks!!!

blown49
01-12-2006, 02:47 PM
How about trying flat-o matic directly?

I saw a thread like this several months ago on either the Fordbarn or MSN flathead sites. Bruce didn't the later model (1949 thru 1953) bellhousings w/automatic trans. have an angled plate on the bell and required a differetnt starter than norm?

Steve
01-12-2006, 02:52 PM
YES HE IS A DICK! THE PLATE IS STAMPED STEEL AND ANGLES THE NOSE DOWN, WHICH BINDS BAD. UNFORTUNATELY I WILL HAVE TO PURCHASE ANOTHER, NO WAY TO GRIND ENOUGH OFF TO MAKE IT WORK. I WOULD NEVER OF PURCHASED PARTS FROM HIM UNDER HIS RECCOMENDATIONS KNOWING I WOULD BE TREATED IN SUCH A MANNER.:mad:

what about shimming the back to level it with the nose of the starter?

HotRodFreak
01-12-2006, 02:57 PM
CORRECTOMUNDO the FH w/auto trans starter is unique to itself and will not fit stick trans.



I saw a thread like this several months ago on either the Fordbarn or MSN flathead sites. Bruce didn't the later model (1949 thru 1953) bellhousings w/automatic trans. have an angled plate on the bell and required a differetnt starter than norm?

Bruce Lancaster
01-12-2006, 03:09 PM
I saw a thread like this several months ago on either the Fordbarn or MSN flathead sites. Bruce didn't the later model (1949 thru 1953) bellhousings w/automatic trans. have an angled plate on the bell and required a differetnt starter than norm?


There is definitely a combination of wrong parts that goes together but tilts the starter. I THINK it involves a passenger stickshift shield and truck or merc bell, but don't really know. The sets of this stuff I have are matched, but I have heard numerous trouble stories...

Remember, this is a 2-stage swap here...Ford truck parts (or Merc) to adapt late engine to early trans, then the flat-o part...lots of possible parts in there to make trouble.

Is this plate a Ford part or flat-o?? Their site indicates plans to manufacture a plate.

Someone with a good pile of identified late flathead parts needs to do a photo essay on bellhousings and starter plates covering the numerous variants! Most of my stuff is early flathead.

plan9
01-12-2006, 03:17 PM
Someone with a good pile of identified late flathead parts needs to do a photo essay on bellhousings and starter plates covering the numerous variants! Most of my stuff is early flathead.

most of my stuff is later flathead, although i dont have any adapters.

there must have been numerous possible swaps... but i rekon the essay could be on the more popular ones.

this leads to my question, what Were the most popular swaps back then? perhaps i can compile something. :)

b29chevy
01-12-2006, 03:19 PM
Okay, we got it, he's a dick. Now, that's been established, don't cut off your nose to spite your face. Shim the starter where it engages smoothly and get back to your life.[QUOTE=luckystattoos]YES HE IS A DICK! THE PLATE IS

Bruce Lancaster
01-12-2006, 03:25 PM
The adapters under discussion here are just the '49-eqrly '51 Merc and '49-52 Truck stock bellhousings and starter plates (different), which convert late block to '32-48 bolt pattern. The FOM adapter bolts to the early pattern. The part being discussed is either a stock Ford part or is the Flat-o-matic part that is still in preparation according to their site. Adapting a late flathead to other trans is usually not much of a problem since a late Ford trans flange is used on all passenger bellhousings.
The parts that need a sorting guide are the truck, merc, and Ford passenger stick housings--Merc, truck, and one version of the passenger starter plate
(I think 1949 stamped housing) all fit the same holes, but are different.

97
01-12-2006, 03:52 PM
Aaahh you guys , remember two small things I learned as a cadet journo
"the pen is mightier than the sword", and
"the written word ,remains"

and there is a new one to add when dealing with traditional rodders

" power of the HAMB"

this will determine a lot of the future for Flathead Jack.
Eventually most of his customers will be Hambers or will at least have lurked on the HAMB.

I sent "Jack" an email as follows , lets see if he really cares, or couldn't care less. His website says he is a Flathead Guru, who has all the knowledge.
It even says his "Gems of knowledge" are known through the "industry"?? as the flathead bible.

He should take the time to help sort this out, in fact if he knows so much it shouldn't be any sort of a problem for him, it is called customer service and standing by your product.


Here is what I sent.

I thought you might be interested in this post on the most widely read, traditional Hot rod internet forum, worldwide, it sure won't do your reputation any good.
I guess you could join up, log on and reply or just get hold of the guy and fix the problem.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87778 (showthread.php?t=87778)

In the meantime don't bother filling either of my orders until I find out what the score is. I cannot afford to buy parts and have them transported 12000 miles only to find they don't work and/or I have no back up service.
yours
etc..





(altos@ihug.co.nz)

50shoe
01-12-2006, 03:55 PM
if its a flat-o adapter call Gene. He's a hell of a nice guy and will take the time to talk to you. I think there were 2 starter plates. but Gene would know for sure.

http://www.flat-o.com/contact.htm
(503) 364-2934

if its not flat-o ditch it on ebay and buy something from them, they T5 kit worked out perfect for me.

b29chevy
01-12-2006, 03:57 PM
want the cold truth? For fixing starter mis-alignment, call a mechanic.

Tudor
01-12-2006, 04:01 PM
Guys Whatever You Do, Do Not Give Your Hard Earned Money To This Guy. I Purchased A Flato Kit And A Bellhousing/starter Plate From Him So I Could Put A C4 Into My 52 Merc. The Starter Plate Cost Me $220.00 And It Does Not Work. It Angles The Starter And Jams Into The Flyswheel. He Refuses To Help Me, AND Will Not Exchange The Part. He Told Me He Is Done With This Conversation And I Am Wasting His Time. Flathead Jack Schafer Is A Crook!

that's why you should by from "Small Chevy Steve" :D j/k folks

Bruce Lancaster
01-12-2006, 04:07 PM
"want the cold truth? For fixing starter mis-alignment, call a mechanic."

This particular misalignment is a sharp tilt off axis, not a matter of shimming, and the tilted part (designed to bolt to an angled flange on a different housing) is a sheet pressing...it could probably be adapted, but with more work than fabricating a new one--this, if it's the combo I think it is, isn't a normal alignment problem but a seriously incompatible part that closely resembles the right one, in a hopeless sorta way...
__________________

53sled
01-12-2006, 04:22 PM
want the cold truth? For fixing starter mis-alignment, call a mechanic.

Good luck finding one that will touch a flathead with an adapter plate on a adapter plate in an old car. Mechanics cost money.

RF
01-12-2006, 04:36 PM
Good luck finding one that will touch a flathead with an adapter plate on a adapter plate in an old car. Mechanics cost money.

While tattoodude probably does need a mechanic, as Bruce pointed out, that isn't an issue here. I'm not sticking up for Jack in any way, but too often I see people bitch cause something didn't fit/work/taste right without first fully researching the situation. A shitty conversation with the source of the product and it's all over. In this world, it's not uncommon to run into problems with items designed to "mate" two other items completely foreign to each other, especially when there are a lot a variables at hand. But, I guess it's just easier to make a big deal on the Internet...

Smokin Joe
01-12-2006, 04:43 PM
I dealt one time with Flathead Jack. I ordered a polished 3 deuces manifold from him and it came on time and packed well. I wasn't impressed with the polish job , but it only took me a few hours to finish all the tight spots they'd skipped. He did try to convince me to go with a super dual instead but I finally convinced him that I really wanted a progressive 3 deuce setup for my 276.

Then I made the mistake of asking him if he had an alternator mount. I got told in no uncertain terms that a damned alternator has no business being on a flathead and if I wanted one of those to go somewhere else. So I did. Been happy ever since....

Really surprised me to see you got a C-4 conversion setup from him. Guess he's mellowing out a bit nowadays.

286merc
01-12-2006, 04:51 PM
Guys Whatever You Do, Do Not Give Your Hard Earned Money To This Guy. I Purchased A Flato Kit And A Bellhousing/starter Plate From Him So I Could Put A C4 Into My 52 Merc. The Starter Plate Cost Me $220.00 And It Does Not Work. It Angles The Starter And Jams Into The Flyswheel. He Refuses To Help Me, AND Will Not Exchange The Part. He Told Me He Is Done With This Conversation And I Am Wasting His Time. Flathead Jack Schafer Is A Crook!


Im guessing that you started with a Mercomatic. In that case all you need is a stick shift starter to mate with the new starter plate which is how Flato supplies the package.
And as mentioned contact Flato. CALL Flato directly and talk to Gene. He is an honest person and a true gentleman and rodder. Ive bought 2 of his flathead kits and one for a Y Block.
Not an asshole like Fl$$hole jack. Ive met the guy, that was enough to convince me to never buy from him.

blown49
01-12-2006, 05:00 PM
Im guessing that you started with a Mercomatic. In that case all you need is a stick shift starter to mate with the new starter plate which is how Flato supplies the package.
And as mentioned contact Flato. CALL Flato directly and talk to Gene. He is an honest person and a true gentleman and rodder. Ive bought 2 of his flathead kits and one for a Y Block.
Not an asshole like Fl$$hole jack. Ive met the guy, that was enough to convince me to never buy from him.

So 286 Merc are you saying the starters are different for the Mercomatic and the stick shift? I think that was what I was alluding to with my post to Bruce. I seem to remember something like that just can't nail it down in this 67 year old mind. :rolleyes:

luckystattoos
01-12-2006, 05:05 PM
Well Guys A Few Things, I Have Receipts For A Couple G's From Flathead Jack Schafer, I Continued To Shop With Him Because He Had The Parts I Was Looking For. Though I Never Appreciated His Egotism (i Call It An Attitude) I Still Gave Him My Money. Now He Sold Me These Parts Telling Me They Would Work, In The Instructions From Gene It Clearly States That There Are Four Possible Fomoco Starter Plates, Three Will Work And The Fourth Which Was Stamped At An Angle Because Some Of The Bellhousings Were Not Manufactured Properly Will Not Work . It Says Do Not Use This One It Jambs The Starter Into The Flywheel. Jack Sold Me This Combination Of Parts. When I Spoke To Gene ( Always Very Informative And Helpful) He Was Very Displeased To Hear Of His (jack) Disservice To His Customers. Gene Also Said He Has Heard This Many Times Before. All I Am Saying Is Jack Should Give Me My Money Back Or Purchase The New Machined Alluminum Plate That Gene Offers And Exchange It For Me. That Is What Any Customer Would Expect, Not To Be Told He Didnt Have Time And Then Hang Up On Me.

Crestliner
01-12-2006, 05:25 PM
Like 97 said "power of the HAMB". I have alot of flatheads and don't need to buy from somebody like this.

Sweats
01-12-2006, 05:55 PM
I gotta tell ya my personal experiance with Flathead Jack has been nothing but great, he always had what I needed, was nice to talk too, and my stuff arrived in a timly manner. Hell he even gave me a t-shirt and a book once. I will continue to buy from him.Thats my 2 cents.

enjenjo
01-12-2006, 06:06 PM
want the cold truth? For fixing starter mis-alignment, call a mechanic.

Ain't that the truth. If you know what you are doing, you can make anything work. If you don't, nothing will work.

Are you using the parts recommended, or something that looks like it's right? I've done several Flato conversions, and there is some measuring and fitting involved to make it work right. If you have the plate mismatched to the bell, it won't work. There is one plate for cast bells, and another for stamped bells.

There are some customers that you would rather have bitch because you wouldn't deal with them, than bitch because you did.

skidmarks
01-12-2006, 06:15 PM
there are also 2 different stick flywheels on the 49-53 motors, one will lay flat on the floor the other rocks on the ridge by the bolt holes for the crank. ive always used the 49-52 truck bell thats cast iron so i could run a truck clutch, the merc stamped steel bell only lets you use the small car clutch. the starter mount plate has to match the flywheel for clearence. also does anyone know if the starter mounting plate for the flathead ford 6 is the same as the 8 ? the 6 had a stamped steel bell that is deeper then the 8 and a differnt bolt pattern to the block, also 52 ford truck had a OHV 6 , what about the starter plate on it ?

luckystattoos
01-12-2006, 06:19 PM
I AM USING THE PARTS HE SOLD ME AND SAID WOULD WORK, I PURCHASED THE COMPLETE PACKAGE TO TRY AND AVOID THESE TYPES OF PROBLEMS. I AM NOT ONE TO BITCH, BUT I HAVE FOLLOWED ALL AVENUES AND TALKED TO MANY PEOPLE WHICH HAVE ALL SAID THIS PLATE WILL NOT WORK UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. NOW WITH THAT SAID IF JACK IS THE "GURU" THEN MAYBE HE MADE A MISTAKE WHEN HE SOLD ME THIS PART, I THEN CONTACTED JACK FOR HIS GUIDANCE ON THIS PART AND WAS SHUT DOWN, I GAVE HIM THE OPPORTUNITY TO HELP ME OR EXCHANGE THE PART TO CORRECT THE SITUATION AND HE WOULDNT. WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE ME, HIS CUSTOMER? WITH A USELESS PART! AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED THAT MAKES HIM A CROOK.




Ain't that the truth. If you know what you are doing, you can make anything work. If you don't, nothing will work.

Are you using the parts recommended, or something that looks like it's right? I've done several Flato conversions, and there is some measuring and fitting involved to make it work right. If you have the plate mismatched to the bell, it won't work. There is one plate for cast bells, and another for stamped bells.

There are some customers that you would rather have bitch because you wouldn't deal with them, than bitch because you did.

zman
01-12-2006, 06:43 PM
Will you quit fucking yelling, damn you're acting like a little cry baby. Yeah it sucks, yeah it's not right, but quit fucking yelling about it....

Luke Jivetalker
01-12-2006, 06:51 PM
what about shimming the back to level it with the nose of the starter?

That would be way too easy Steve, besides if he did that he'd have nothing to bitch about, Heaven forbid someone has to modify something to make it work on a hot rod!

plan9
01-12-2006, 07:22 PM
That would be way too easy Steve, besides if he did that he'd have nothing to bitch about, Heaven forbid someone has to modify something to make it work on a hot rod!

whats a shim and how does it work?? did they use shims back in the 50's?

T-Bone
01-12-2006, 07:26 PM
Guys Whatever You Do, Do Not Give Your Hard Earned Money To This Guy.

If you exibited the same interpersonal skills one the phone with Flathead Jack that you have exibited thus far on the HAMB, its no surprise he hung up on you.

Where Did You Learn To Type?

Jim Marlett
01-12-2006, 07:47 PM
There were two starter plates for late model flatheads. One had the starter mount parallel to the plate. The other mounts the starter at an angle to the plate. You have the one that mounts the starter at an angle. This one was used on the stamped steel full bell housing the bottom of which was angled slightly for God only knows what reason. All you need to do it get the other style starter plate that mounts to the cast bell housing. These things should be a dime a dozen. If you can't find one locally, call Red Hamilton at Red's Headers. He can probably get you one for not much money.

xadamx
01-12-2006, 07:56 PM
Posts like this really don't amount to very much, they seem like they do in the beginning but then they spiral downward so fast. I have not dealt with Flathead Jack a lot, but I have dealt with him...and he was great. I know a few others that have also had good relationships with him. There are always two sides to everything and getting on here and dissing him won't fix your problem. Give it a day or two, calm down, call him back, and maybe you guys can sort it out. Maybe he was having a bad day, I can be a real asshole when I am hungry or frustrated with a client. Maybe there was a miscommunication as to which combo of parts you have and needed to fit together? Anyway, really none of my business, so I hope it all works out for you and you can get that car going. I had a starter plate problem once and the starter was angled and would bind up, I had the wrong starter plate. Never knew there were a few made. Oh well, live and learn.

Good luck,
Adam

seymour
01-12-2006, 08:10 PM
haha. we need a baby crying smiley.

Luke Jivetalker
01-12-2006, 08:14 PM
whats a shim and how does it work?? did they use shims back in the 50's?

yes Mr 9, they did use them in the 50's, I'm not sure if it was Vic Edelbrock or Barney Navarro that invented the illusive shim, also known as an angle washer, boy what times those must have been. :D

trailer-Ed
01-12-2006, 08:23 PM
yes Mr 9, they did use them in the 50's, I'm not sure if it was Vic Edelbrock or Barney Navarro that invented the illusive shim, also known as an angle washer, boy what times those must have been. :D
I've tried to deal with O'l Jack a couple times. I new exactly what I wanted, I didn't want anything other than that. Well I had to get asked why do you want this with that, and dont use this if you have that. I've probably forgotten more about flatheads than He'll ever know. Then last time I wanted a sling shot alt bracket, not the cheap Speedway one, but the nice cast aluminum one, well I thought he would have it, when I asked I got a lecture on how stupid i was for wanting to put an alternator on a flathead! All he had to say was sorry sir, I don't carry that item. He is a total DICK as far as I am concerned, and I hope he does loose some $'s over this post. Red's, Speedway, and Motor City are the ones I care to deal with.

Crestliner
01-12-2006, 08:34 PM
If you exibited the same interpersonal skills one the phone with Flathead Jack that you have exibited thus far on the HAMB, its no surprise he hung up on you.

Where Did You Learn To Type?
I believe we have been through this before. This is a car site,not typing class.
Now if I read his post correctly, he bought the complete kit. He didn't use a different starter plate.

blown49
01-12-2006, 08:36 PM
If you exibited the same interpersonal skills one the phone with Flathead Jack that you have exibited thus far on the HAMB, its no surprise he hung up on you.

Where Did You Learn To Type?

Internet rule #1 DO NOT TYPE IN CAPITAL LETTERS as it appears you are shouting and who in the hell wants to hear somebody shouting at them? :)

Internet rule #2 If you're gonna type in CAPS don't do it one HAMB or you'll get dizzed. :rolleyes: You have ignored the hints before on this post. :p

Internet rule #3 If you continue to type in CAPS on the HAMB you'll be banned and then who in the hell are you gonna shout at? :mad:

Internet rule #4 Shouting at someone never helps anybody and it is prolly why FH Jack said goodbye :eek:

seymour
01-12-2006, 08:40 PM
Internet rule #1 DO NOT TYPE IN CAPITAL LETTERS as it appears you are shouting and who in the hell wants to hear somebody shouting at them? :)

Internet rule #2 If you're gonna type in CAPS don't do it one HAMB or you'll get dizzed. :rolleyes: You have ignored the hints before on this post. :p

Internet rule #3 If you continue to type in CAPS on the HAMB you'll be banned and then who in the hell are you gonna shout at? :mad:

Internet rule #4 Shouting at someone never helps anybody and it is prolly why FH Jack said goodbye :eek:

hahahahaa... best post in this thread so far!

286merc
01-12-2006, 08:46 PM
So 286 Merc are you saying the starters are different for the Mercomatic and the stick shift? I think that was what I was alluding to with my post to Bruce. I seem to remember something like that just can't nail it down in this 67 year old mind. :rolleyes:

ABSOLUTELY different and not interchangable. This holds with any Fordomatic or Mercomatic behind a flathead.
Everyone keeps harping about different starter plates and flywheels when it has nothing to do with this guys problem.

There is so damn much misinformation from people who do not fully understand the vagaries of the beast as well as the differences between early blocks and the 8BA family. But they have to post anyway and just add to the confusion. Bad day, end of rant.

seymour
01-12-2006, 08:50 PM
yes Mr 9, they did use them in the 50's, I'm not sure if it was Vic Edelbrock or Barney Navarro that invented the illusive shim, also known as an angle washer, boy what times those must have been. :D

Skip, I had to build a time machine to get some angled shims b/c some "asshole" HAMBER sent me an early SBC intake to go on my later SBC! Maybe I should have posted a thread and bitched about it! :rolleyes:

torchmen49
01-12-2006, 09:51 PM
for 220.00 it ought to fit.

riverratABSOLUTLY it ought to fit, all anyone wants is good value for their dollar

Jim Marlett
01-12-2006, 10:26 PM
ABSOLUTELY different and not interchangable. This holds with any Fordomatic or Mercomatic behind a flathead.
Everyone keeps harping about different starter plates and flywheels when it has nothing to do with this guys problem.
Been there and done that with both the plate and the starter. He may have both problems. According to Flat-O-Matic, you are supposed to use the cast half bell housing from a truck or you will have to do some carving on the stamped steel half bell housing. I was presuming that he has the cast half bell housing as recommended. If not, then the starter plate may be correct (I can't remember if they used the angled plate or not) and the problem could be the automatic transmission starter. The bottom line on the plate is, when it is all buttoned up, does the starter sit parallel with the crankshaft or does it sit at an angle. If it sits at an angle, then it isn't right. If it sits right, then find another starter.

Luke Jivetalker
01-12-2006, 10:29 PM
Skip, I had to build a time machine to get some angled shims b/c some "asshole" HAMBER sent me an early SBC intake to go on my later SBC! Maybe I should have posted a thread and bitched about it! :rolleyes:

Holy Shit! I can't believe what I'm seeing, it appears to be some sort of angle shim? How in the world did you do that? I am amazed that you had the patience to figure something out rather THAN BITCH ABOUT IT IN CAPITAL LETTERS ON THE HAMB

:D

lakes modified
01-13-2006, 12:23 AM
Gene At flat-o Products does not sell the kit with that starter plate. He showed me one of them one time when i was i to see him and they are for a different belhousing that is cut at an angle at the bottom and it think they are for trucks, he he knows for sure. I have the correct plate and gene now makes new ones for the stuff he sells. Sounds like it's not one of his kits, but maybe speedway?.
Kinda sounds like your gonna have to get the correct plate, regardless of what Jack does, which is really to bad. Any way to get a refund on all of it and get the correct one? I've been had by Canfield cylinder heads, so i do a ton of free negative advertising for them now and for ever. Good luck.

Jim Marlett
01-13-2006, 08:33 AM
I Purchased A Flato Kit And A Bellhousing/starter Plate From Him So I Could Put A C4 Into My 52 Merc. The Starter Plate Cost Me $220.00 And It Does Not Work. It Angles The Starter And Jams Into The Flyswheel.
Let's cut to the chase. The original post says that the starter is at an angle. It is, therefore, not the right starter plate. It is the starter plate for a stamped bell housing which is angled to match the angle on the bell housing which then lets the starter sit straight.

If you can get $220 for a starter plate, then I need to go flathead mining.

Bruce Lancaster
01-13-2006, 09:13 AM
To get some tech mileage out of this post, let's look at those plates and starters; I only personally know Merc and truck, which are similar-but-different. Merc nearly plain flat thing with raised (and straight!) starter pad, truck much the same but has stamped in boss around edge and various stiffening ridges.

There seems to be a slanted one, plate slanted to fit an odd bell, starter slanted axially to make it parallel to crank, which can fit where above two plates go but which then makes starter significantly misaligned axially. I've seen Fordbarn discussions started by several different people on this thing, but I don't believe anyone has ID'd it. If I ever had one, it went into the trash before I noticed the slant.

Anyone know exact origin of this? A picture? I have no late Ford passenger stuff myself, and all my plates are still with their original bells. Pics of the Merc and Truck plates would likely be useful to those who haven't seen them.

Starters: Though there are minor variations, there are only two basic flavors for '32-53 221-239-255 engines. Both have flat 90 degree mounting surface. All stick ones interchange, and mount using the through bolts with no external flange. The automatic has at least one bolt sticking out on a little flange, and uses completely different drive and gear. There's another one too, '42 Liquamatic, but since there are probably like two of those left on the planet you don't have to worry much...

warbozz
01-13-2006, 09:29 AM
Actually Bruce, there is only one known Liquimatic Lincoln still around, a '42 Continental that used to be in the Tom Monahan collection (Domino's Pizza founder). I saw it back in 1988 at the Dominos headquarters in Ann Arbor, MI. Anyaway back to the subject, I've only bought the catalog from Flathead Jack, and I liked the selection of parts but wasn't real impressed that for $8.00 it was a two year old catalog. A few months later the new one came out, but I would have had to have paid another $8.00 for it. No, I didn't get the new one.

Bruce Lancaster
01-13-2006, 09:41 AM
There's a '42 Merc Liquamatic in Holland! I corresponded with the guy a couple of years ago. I should have asked how the hell it got there--by '42, Holland was German occupied, and by 1945, Ford had probably hunted down and scrapped every other one...I think someone in the club has a liquamatic V8 engine, too.
I have fairly good parts coverage on these things--absolute screaming nightmare of a design! 4 speed standard behinf a liquid coupler, extra synchro in middle of cluster, pile of control junk like a 1970's car...

blown49
01-13-2006, 09:44 AM
I have a Merc/Lincoln service manual for '49 thru '51 and it states the following:

The Mercury CM starting motor is mounted to the fltwheel housing cover (converter cover on Merc-o-matic transmission units) wth two "through" bolts and supported at the commutator end with a bracket to the oil pan on STANDARD and OVERDRIVE transmission units.

Om Mercury ICM equipped with Merc-o-matic transmission, a cap screw, in addition to the two through bolts, supports the starter motor at the converter housing.

On vehicles equipped with Hydra-Matic (Lincoln) and Merc-o-matic transmissions, the starter motor and bendix drive IS OF DIFFERENT DESIGN and not interchangable with vehicles equipped with standard and overdrive transmissions nor interchangable between Lincoln and Mercury models.

So if the original starter came off of a Fordo-o-matic or Merc-o-matic transmission it prolly won't fit the mounting in this case for the C-4.

Thanks again to 286 Merc and Bruce for the enlightment.

warbozz
01-13-2006, 09:46 AM
Hmm, maybe the Nazis smuggled in a Liquimatic to sabotage the thinking of European engineers... I had a Motor Repair Manual that showed the design of that thing. No wonder Ford didn't revisit the automatic 'til '51- unless you count buying from GM for the Lincoln, now that's desperation. :D

Jim Marlett
01-13-2006, 01:10 PM
There seems to be a slanted one, plate slanted to fit an odd bell, starter slanted axially to make it parallel to crank, which can fit where above two plates go but which then makes starter significantly misaligned axially. I've seen Fordbarn discussions started by several different people on this thing, but I don't believe anyone has ID'd it. If I ever had one, it went into the trash before I noticed the slant.

Anyone know exact origin of this?
I will say this once again. The slanted starter plate goes with the FULL stamped steel bell housing. This bell housing goes all the way from the back of an 8BA to the front of a late model transmission. I believe it was used on 1951 passenger cars and maybe other years. It is NOT the same thing as the partial stamped steel bell housing used in '49-'51 Mercs. I couldn't remember whether the slanted plate went with the partial stamped steel Merc bell housing or not, but Bruce has confirmed that it does not. The mating surface of the stamped full bell housing angles away from the engine below the block mounting surface. The angled starter plate compensates for this. Presuming Bruce is right about the Mercury partial bell housing, and I have never found Bruce to be wrong, then there is no way the angled starter plate can go with anything on the Flat-O-Matic conversion since neither of the partial bell housings match the angled starter plate.

If you want to see a picture, look in the Ford Passenger Car Shop Manual, 1949-1950-1951 on page 31. You can clearly see the angle in the engine drawing on the left hand side of the page. I don't have time to scan it right now, but I will if necessary.

(Edited to reflect the correct years. Can't type in a hurry!)

345window
01-13-2006, 02:25 PM
sounds like a great topic for a tech dah dah dah...
Keeping the ball in the air on Jack. He's expesive, but my experience is that the product is better than average. He's accessable and will talk for as long as you need him too, he will tell you anything you want to know weather you buy from him or not. If you visit his shop, and I have, he will walk you through, chat up a storm, and pop the hood on the Merc. He gave me a tee shirt....his book has a lot of great tips for flathead dudes.....really
One bad experience doesnt necessarily make him a crook.

Digger_Dave
01-13-2006, 03:34 PM
I will say this once again. The slanted starter plate goes with the FULL stamped steel bell housing. This bell housing goes all the way from the back of an 8BA to the front of a late model transmission. I believe it was used on 1951 passenger cars and maybe other years. It is NOT the same thing as the partial stamped steel bell housing used in '49-'51 Mercs. I couldn't remember whether the slanted plate went with the partial stamped steel Merc bell housing or not, but Bruce has confirmed that it does not. The mating surface of the stamped full bell housing angles away from the engine below the block mounting surface. The angled starter plate compensates for this. Presuming Bruce is right about the Mercury partial bell housing, and I have never found Bruce to be wrong, then there is no way the angled starter plate can go with anything on the Flat-O-Matic conversion since neither of the partial bell housings match the angled starter plate.

If you want to see a picture, look in the Ford Passenger Car Shop Manual, 1949-1950-1951 on page 31. You can clearly see the angle in the engine drawing on the left hand side of the page. I don't have time to scan it right now, but I will if necessary.

(Edited to reflect the correct years. Can't type in a hurry!)

According to Flat-o-matic installation instructions (I have used two Flat-o-matic C4 adaptors) ....

"There are four different starter mounting plates. To check for a correct one, place on a flat surface (trans side DOWN) and measure from the starter mounting surface around the starter opening to the flat surface. The starter mount face MUST be the same distance to the flat surface ALL the way around the opening." "If the distances are different, DO NOT USE!"

fur biscuit
01-13-2006, 04:36 PM
Skip, I had to build a time machine to get some angled shims b/c some "asshole" HAMBER sent me an early SBC intake to go on my later SBC! Maybe I should have posted a thread and bitched about it! :rolleyes:

damned "asshole" hambers!

you know i bet the goober on here who started this thread talked to "flatdick jack" just like he talks on here.

btw: hotrods are supposed to be purchased complete and driven tenderly. everything that must be purchased is supposed to be picked up in a box neatly packaged and bolts right on...all parts are to be clean, presentable, and free from any oil or grime.

286merc
01-13-2006, 05:30 PM
Flathead starter plates, almost the FINAL WORD; somebody fill in the missing info:

51 Fordomatic/Mercomatic Use ONLY with aluminum housing Part 1M7991-A
51-3 Fordomatic/Mercomatic Use ONLY with cast iron housing Part 1M7991-B
49-51 Ford Part 8BA 6366-B
52-53 Ford & Merc Part EAB 6366-A

There are 3 others which I dont have part # on.

49-51 Merc stick shift
48-52 truck with full cast iron adapter ring; 6366 series
53 truck uses the half bell. I believe this was only on the F100; 6366 series

This offers us 7 different possibilities of which at least 4 are uniques

Sources I used:

49-53 Passenger Car Chassis Parts Catalog
48-56 Light Truck Chassis Parts Catalog (missing some critical pages!)

51 pickem up
01-14-2006, 12:11 AM
well thats what you get for using a ford flathead instead of a sbc.:p

luckystattoos
01-21-2006, 02:12 AM
It amazes me of the statements that so many have without the direct experience! All I can say is, thanks to those who supported my effort to educate.


Cheers, Lucky

Hackerbilt
01-21-2006, 11:16 AM
Forget Flathead Jack for a minute...did you identify and correct your problem with the starter?
Lots of info here to work from, and then a decision can be made over where the mistakes lie.
IF it turns out FJ sent you incorrect parts you now should have enough specialized information to argue your case with him or the courts...or whomever!!! (once you identify the problem)

The car should be the point of focus...NOT blind acceptance of your statement about Flathead Jack.
There's no business in the world SOMEONE doesn't think are a bunch of crooks...

RF
01-21-2006, 11:30 AM
thanks to those who supported my effort to educate.



What about the effort to "be educated"?

pigpen
01-21-2006, 12:40 PM
It amazes me of the statements that so many have without the direct experience! All I can say is, thanks to those who supported my effort to educate.


Cheers, Lucky

My direct experience with Flathead Jack has always been positive. I usually don't order much from him because I consider his prices to be way too high, but that's another issue. He will talk to you and help with any problems you may have (like the soft lifters that I got from HR&CS) and will help trouble shoot. I suppose that if you gave him a hard time he could get grouchy; that could very well be. :eek:

pigpen


"You better stay away from that guy.....he's.... grouchy."
(Tommy Jones in Men in Black)

cruzr
01-21-2006, 01:00 PM
well i dont know about your current situation with that part, but i have bought from him for years, talked to Jack on the phone several times for help and he has always come through for me,hell i even talked to him one day as he was riding down the street in his Merc. He has never been egotistical with me , and always helpfull. He ships quick, and every part ive ever got has been primo......and fit right......guess sh.t happens

steele138
01-21-2006, 01:30 PM
Thanks for the useful tech info; lots of knowledge free for the taking.
Steele

kustom_dude
02-22-2006, 05:44 PM
I personally know Jack he is a good guy im sure you may have been a P--ck on the phone with him and he was done with you,

Jack is the man! he's probably forgotten more than allot of us know about Flat heads and on top of that he's held many top speed records with flat heads and Hemi's I believe.

Just like RF said educate your self.

P.S Always remember be "smarter than what you are working on"
Later!!

slazzen
02-22-2006, 08:48 PM
it has been hashed out here on the hamb in the past. Anyone that lives in the east bay area knows that Jack is the biggest ass god ever created. I lived 2 miles from his shop for 10 yrs and never seen him at a local show ever!!! He is a self proclaimed flatty guru and he is so arogant he belives his shit smells like flowers. His only saving grace is mail order and the suckers that havent heard of his reputation. if he had to live on service and integraty like most people he would have been done yrs ago

Flatdog
02-22-2006, 09:04 PM
P.S Always remember be "smarter than what you are working on"
Later!! That is the very reason I had to give up bowling.

slazzen
02-23-2006, 11:37 AM
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14088&highlight=flathead+jack

dcs1755
12-05-2009, 04:43 PM
Have been dealing with him for many years....Never a problem as I never challenge him. He is sharp & have helped many times. In my book..a straight up good guy unless you abuse him.

Kevin Lee
12-05-2009, 04:45 PM
A little late for damage control - this thread is nearly three years old.