Any web designers on here?

[JamesG]

I'm going to school for web based design and then getting my degree for computer information systems. Any advise for a newbie? Resources maybe? I'm working on my first website now. Thanks

[Mart]

There's some guy called "Ryan" hangs around here from time to time.....
Mart http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[2tall2beahotrodder]

been making tiny webpages here and there for over 3-4 years now... www.pugner.tk (http://www.pugner.tk) is my page right now... working on www.geocities.com/ratrodhangout/home (http://www.geocities.com/ratrodhangout/home) (url will be shorter)

advice- GOOD LUCK! dont bet on the horses

[zman]

One piece of advice. Stay out of the big tech centers (Raleigh, NC; Austin, TX; San Fran, CA) you can't swing your dick without hitting an unemployed web designer...

[JamesG]

Looking good man.......I'm in Arkansas so getting a job should'nt be too hard. I hope anyway.....

[JamesG]

[ QUOTE ]
There's some guy called "Ryan" hangs around here from time to time.....
Mart http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yea..........................lol......

[fuel pump]

Donzie isn't a real web designer but I think he plays one at the newspaper.

[41ChevyTrucker]

learn as much as you can about databases and mid tier component programming and you will have more opportunities to make more $

[whizzerick]

Low, here is my 2 cents worth.
I've been a (freelance) graphic Designer fo a decade now and Art Director in the magazine industry. While it's not where the core of my business is, I've done a few for 'print' clients. This is what I've learned:
- 3 important words: content, content and content.

What does this have to do with design?

Well, for one thing, when you choose your design 'tools' or the 'orientation' you'll give your schooling, stay away from the web gimmicks (i.e: Flash, etc). You can ALWAYS 'farm out' that kind of work to individuals specializing in that field (learn by yourself, on the side). Concentrate on content-driven tools (i.e: database driven, PHP, SQL, etc). Everybody hates a 'static' website and adding dancing doo-dads does NOT enhance the browsing experience: fresh content does! .

PLUS: I find that, while the delivery and billing of a client's website is always pleasing, the good money is in monthly (or weekly) updates. When you have 10-12 websites that need monthly updates (hence, monthly billing), both the client and yourself benefit...
whizzerick

[magnet]

dude, study up on PERL.. you will be amazed what you can do with it.. which will lead you to PHP.. and you will be amazed with it... which will then lead you to SQL databases (MySQL especially)... this is where the moolah is. Combine artistic skills with a solid knowledge of programming languages and database interaction and you are on the way to building your own web app or consulting company... and making some dough. And then you are a head above all the dime a dozen web people out there.
Start on linux or some brand of unix.... stay off those windows boxes as servers... you will go farther in the long run knowing unix.

my 2cents

[zman]

[ QUOTE ]

Well, for one thing, when you choose your design 'tools' or the 'orientation' you'll give your schooling, stay away from the web gimmicks (i.e: Flash, etc). You can ALWAYS 'farm out' that kind of work to individuals specializing in that field (learn by yourself, on the side). Concentrate on content-driven tools (i.e: database driven, PHP, SQL, etc). Everybody hates a 'static' website and adding dancing doo-dads does NOT enhance the browsing experience: fresh content does! .

PLUS: I find that, while the delivery and billing of a client's website is always pleasing, the good money is in monthly (or weekly) updates. When you have 10-12 websites that need monthly updates (hence, monthly billing), both the client and yourself benefit...
whizzerick


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I work in the IT industry, and have seen a big shift from static html for PHP and now postgres. Database driven pages are where it seems to be moving.

As for the monthly billing. Recurring income is the bomb. Less sales work while still bringing in the moola.

One suggestion is get a page up that your especially proud of and use it as your resume. You can get local as well as long distance business out of it.

[OldSub]

Find a specialty.

I moonlight doing forms and database work for an ad agency that sells lots of web sites. They have used a bunch of different people to do the graphic elements, but they always come back to me when they need the site to interact or store information.

And they pay more for that stuff than the graphics parts.

I started out doing mostly Perl with Oracle, but the cheap hosting usually supports PHP and MySQL so now that's all I do.

Understand who your clients are before you commit yourself to a technology. My clients are small companies that are buying cheap hosting for sites that will never see big traffic demand.

PHP/MySQL is cheap and does the job and is a good match for my clients. There are other clients who will never believe MySQL is a viable answer, and you'll have to offer Oracle or SQL Server or maybe DB2 to seem credible to them.

And there are people doing real well in a Windows server environment, so I wouldn't just rule it out. Knowing ASP.Net could open some lucretive doors that I'll never go through because I'm not wiling to learn the technology.

Oh, and stay away from Seattle and Portland. Seattle was second hardest hit after San Jose by the dot-com crash, and Portland was close behind. Lots of tech people around here who are underemployed...

[Ryan]

Id be happy to help however I can... Two things though:

1. Flash is not a "web gimmick". That is rediculous... I use flash to pass and and compile variables through databases everyday... Interactive web sites and product design is how I make my living and Flash is a VERY big part of it and will continue to be so...

2. PERL is an antiquated language now days in the corporate world. Stay open source and be a dork or study up on C# and get ready to make some dough with .Net if you want to be a developer... Even if you just want to be creative, you have to have a good understanding of the back end now-a-days...

[Donzie]

[ QUOTE ]

Donzie isn't a real web designer but I think he plays one at the newspaper.

[/ QUOTE ]
You got that right Rich, but don't tell my boss. I was hired to sell online advertising and now I'm the "webmaster"! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
They actually think I know what I'm doing.
I guess that's the advantage of working for newspaper people. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[JamesG]

Wow guys, some of that sounded like Chinese to me but I'm learing! Thank ya'll so much for your insite and advise. To let ya'll know where I'm at when it comes to being new at this........If you guys are old heads at it then I'm just a fetus! I'v had some computer class's at school that touched on the subject but not indepth. My class's on web design and IT stuff starts this Saturday. So I'v been sitting around on my own playing with a site design thats in one of my books that I had to have for one of my class's. It's titled "Web Site Design Made Easy" by Dennis Gaskill. He runs a site call boogiejack.com. The title might sound a little cheesy but its actually a great book thats easy to understand and is written not in a "monotone" style but with some comedy! Anyway, I'm looking forward to getting my first paycheck for all my hard work in school and at home. But first I have to get that little piece of paper that says I know what I'm doing!

Another question or two that I have is one-is there anyway or any place that I can serve an apprenticeship? And two-do any of you subscribe to a certain magazine that might be helpful and usefull to me?

One of you spoke of some area's to stay away from. I'm livong in Arkansas right now and if the rail road does'nt transfer me to Houston, my home town, then I'm going to give that career up and move back home. At that time my wife will be done with most of her schooling and we will need to move to a bigger city anyway becouse the local university do not offer what she need's to get her Graduates degree in Forinsic Psychology. How is the demand for guys like yourselve thier? High I hope! One of the main reasons for this career change is that I love doing this type of stuff. Another is that I would much rather have a 9-5 or what ever (daylight)job so that I can sleep nights and get up like the rest of the world and go to work. Right now I have crappy days off, Thurs and Fri, and I work 11pm to 7am. I'v seen what railroading has has done to my Dad mentally and physically due to the 32 years of doing it and I dont want to run myself into the ground like he has. I'd much rather ware a nice shirt and a pair of slacks or jeans to work rather overalls, steeltoed work boots and then have to get nasty, greasy, dirty and wet from the rain becouse I'm having to get some stupid locomotive up and running again asap becouse its holding up the whole world! Getting nasty and greasy is for the house when your wrenching on hot rods...................


Once again guys I want to thank each of you for all of your help and advice. This has been probably the most helpful thread I'v ever read. And should I run into a road block, some of you may be getting a PM or two from me! Thanks!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[whizzerick]

[ QUOTE ]
Flash is not a "web gimmick". I use flash to pass and and compile variables through databases everyday...

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm referring to Flash animation wich can eat up a LOT of build time, with minimal value in the overall 'browser experience'.

[Christian]

The last thing this world needs is another webdesigner.
I used to be one, been jobless for 2 1/2 years, everybody's a webdesigner these days. I'm with wizzerick: content, content content. If you see how websites have evolved over the years, they used to be all grafics and no content, the era of the zillion "splash pages" you had to go through to get to some kind of menu. Never seen a "skip intro" button I haven't clicked. I'd concentrate on being a back-end guy, if you wanna be a design guy your job will consist of choosing color schemes and making buttons with text in 'em, anybody can do that's why they get payed nuttin', PHP, MySQL all that shit that makes publishing content easy, I'd concentrate on that.

[Ryan]

All opinions and everyone has one, but I still disagree... I don't hire art directors unless they have mastered Flash animation. Motion design is getting more and more important in my world - every single one of my clients has some sort of flash creative on their pages and many of them have entire flash GUI's... In fact, we have a constant need for folks that are good flash animators - they are just hard to come by...

Again, everyone's world is different and everyone has different ideas. I'm, by no means, Al Gore - I didn't invent the internet and my opinion is no more valuable than anyone else's... I just disagree with Flash being a gimmick in anyway as we use every aspect of it on every day on accounts worth millions... It's not going away.

[JamesG]

Sounds to me that a person like myself just now getting his feet wet should try to learn everything that he possibly can.........Would'nt hurt would it?

[Christian]

Flash might not be going away but it's novelty wore off, back in the day you could sell Flash animation to any client and he'd be extatic 'cause he'd have something moving on his website. we've all seen flash now, and if you try to sell it to that same guy now he'll ask what the added value is, and often there is none. Okay, it's good for resolving some interface problems, and for sites that are about nothing but look good and cool, I'd get into it if I had a IT course in design school, not a design course in IT school.

[DrDano]

1Low,

In '99 I was in the same boat as you are now from the sounds of it. I got my Associates degree in Multimedia/Graphic Design, originally planning to do animation or web design. Well, that did not pan out so well, probably due to the fact that my design work is very anal and perfect...thus taking forever. I found my real talent was with programming websites and other interactive items...really the more geek side of it all. While going to that school I was a CNC laser programmer.

Now, fast forward to present day. I'm self employed as a technical consultant. The bulk of my clients now are websites, but I do occasional network/computer consulting and unfucking. Most of my time with the web stuff is spent programming and I outsource nearly all of my design work that I cannot handle myself to save myself time. Its a great way to make a living and is paying the bills very nicely as I study to get a real bachelors in Computer Science from the university here.

My advice is this: Learn everything you can about everything related to the kind of work you want to do. If you are into web/interactive stuff, try to get into the programming side too. I picked up the web programming at my first job after I got my AAS, and thank god I learned to code because I would most likely be unemployed right now had I stayed a grunt web designer at the bottom of the totem pole.

Second piece of advice on coding: Learn everything you can, not just what is popular now or what pays well. I'm personally perfer LAMP, Linux, Apache, MySQL and PHP for my sites. But beyond that, learn the MS stuff even if you hate it and them, as I do. I have clients who must have MS stuff for whatever reason, and I must be able to provide service to them. My point here is not to limit your technical exposure to just certain things, but learn as much as you can about as many different types of coding and technical items as possible. It will certainly help you in the long run, its sure saved my ass more than once.

[whizzerick]

Yes, all good opinions. This thread is very informative. It seems a lot of folks on here have experience in the field.

Apart from the technical aspects and to stress even further the importance of content, I'll add that it is a great time for creative types (artists, writers, etc). While the last decade has been tech-oriented (laying the foundations of the information Super-highway), I think the next one will help us discover great, self published artists. Great times, I think.
WzRick

[DrDano]

Ryan,

I used to think that flash was nothing more than a fancy add-on to a site until I worked with a kid on a website project for a hotel. Then I started to fully understand how much more useful flash could be in terms of pumping content and info back and forth from databases and a basket of other applications. It changed my thinking forever about it. I think its one of those things that you dont appriciate because you see its common application just for small flash movies on novice websites, but once you see what it can do on the geek level, its a whole different beast.

[JamesG]

Yes this has been a great thread. I have another question for you guys, can a person work at a company as an IT guy and still do thier own thing on the side such as web design and or weekly or monthly site updates? I ask this becouse it seem that some places dont not allow nor want you doing stuff on the side. If its like where I work as with most jobs you do what you want on the side and just try to keep it hush hush as much as possible......

[JamesG]

[ QUOTE ]
Ryan,

I used to think that flash was nothing more than a fancy add-on to a site until I worked with a kid on a website project for a hotel. Then I started to fully understand how much more useful flash could be in terms of pumping content and info back and forth from databases and a basket of other applications. It changed my thinking forever about it. I think its one of those things that you dont appriciate because you see its common application just for small flash movies on novice websites, but once you see what it can do on the geek level, its a whole different beast.

[/ QUOTE ]

From a "laymens"point of view I see Flash as a great thing for first time visitors to a site but not for reagular user's. It may get old to them. Thats just my un-professional oppion. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[whizzerick]

My 2 cents again...
I try to be fair with my staff and give them as much $$$ as budget allows. In return, I expect they give me their attention, energy and creativity. The brain, unlike a lemon, will regenerate it's (creative) juices after a thorough pressing but I DONT want anybody to do it on my time, after an exhausting late-night coding orgy...
Then again, when I was on the payroll, I also freelanced... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[JamesG]

Just to add a little "humer" to this thread, heres a little something I just found. Thought you guys might like....

http://www.madisonlinux.org/pipermail/madlug/1999-November/000004.html

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Smokin Joe]

Programmers, They drown when they forget to empty the "bit bucket"!

[JamesG]

Another question........Once you build your website, like say a personal one about your car, how do you go about getting it on the www? I know how to view it as a web page on my computer.....but thats all.....HELP?!?!?!?!!?

[D Picasso]

here's an example of Ryan's work involving Flash:

www.jalopyjournal.com/Picasso (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/Picasso)

neat, huh? thanks, Ryan.

[JamesG]

[ QUOTE ]
here's an example of Ryan's work involving Flash:

www.jalopyjournal.com/Picasso (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/Picasso)

neat, huh? thanks, Ryan.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's badass.....

[magnet]

thtas funny Ryan... perl is antiquated .. hahahahahah

Dude, i write code, both in the web app area and actual everyday products, and most of the prototypes and tools and test apps.. all written in perl. Anything after that.. java...

[Ryan]

PERL is obsolete homeboy. Name one major brand that has an architecture based on that language. And I say this with a lot of pain, because PERL is my native language and the one I know the best. Don't get me wrong, I love PERL but it's only uses now are small web apps, prototypes (like you say), and the like...

I work for the largest interactive firm in the country and I'd say 80% of all our development is in C# optimized for .net environment... That said, we still do quite a bit of php and java for other projects.

[whizzerick]

[ QUOTE ]
neat, huh? thanks, Ryan.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed. Great work from both of you, fellas.

[zman]

I have to say I don't agree with Ryan that perl is antiquated. I see lots of it everyday. I started out working for an ISP, bottom of the rung, Help Desk. worked my way up through the ranks to Network Engineer. Then the dot.com bubble burst. Now I work in IT support for BioInformatics. I work at a major university in a Genetics lab. Pretty neat stuff, but I never thought I'd be here. Anyway I work with perl everyday, most of the big apps for bioinformatics are written in Perl. Python is closing fast. You can't see them but they are web accessable. Most everything is Perl, Apache, MYSQL, Postgres, PHP. It's not the most glamorous place to do web development, but the paycheck doesn't suck. I've been working in IT for a decade and have noticed there is more than the WWW to web development. Got a friend who does nothing but flash for interactive classes. But don't ignore MS stuff either, there will always be some of it around where ever you work.

[ironhunter]

Here's one of mine Tanks Inc. (http://www.tanksinc.com)

Ray
IronHunter Rod & Custom

[magnet]

whats this world coming to :-)

[PEDDRO]

My company's firewall (one of the largest in Australia and growing in the US) blocks ALL Flash. Picasso's site don't show nothing to me!

Not good, from a user's point-of-view.

[zman]

As someone who has/and does configure firewalls for a living. That's some bullshit right there. What they're trying to do is filter out content. i.e. keep you from surfing stuff that isn't work related. There is no real security threat from flash. They're just trying to keep you down.

[CrazyDaddy]

Lots of IT jobs are going overseas. go to www.itpaa.org (http://www.itpaa.org), www.forio.com/outsourcing.htm (http://www.forio.com/outsourcing.htm), etc. Be careful about your selection of IT careers. What will probably never go overseas are: security development, compliance development, and development for medium to small businesses. Take a look at Monster.com and the jobs section of cities you'd like to live in (esp. where your wife may end up working!) , to get a feel for what types of programming languages to learn.

[fuel pump]

ironhunter,
Small world. I sell Tanks Inc their EFI fuel pumps. BTW I like their site. Nice job.

[OldSub]

I need to add my two cents on Flash.

Remember in the dark ages (the 80s) when suddenly everyone with a computer was using a dozen fonts on every memo? I think Flash has suffered some of that same hot fad fate.

Sometimes Flash is used well and contributes to making a site effective. But all to often, and especially in the days when it first became available, it has been over-used because its the current hot technology.

My son is a partner in a web-design firm. He recently told me about a prospect that wanted a Flash site. I asked what the prospect wanted to accomplish with the site, and was told they still don't know. Someone is going to do that guy a Flash site, but will it do anything for his business? Probably not.

Flash is like any other technology, the geeks may find it cool, but it has limited business value if it does not enhance business performance.

As for Perl... well four and five years ago people who knew Cobal were doing real well and more recently I've seen lots of opportunities to use FoxPro. But those were almost all short-lived projects. I haven't seen a need for Cobal in the last few years, and the FoxPro projects are all migrations to something else.

Perl isn't dead, but it isn't the future either. I'm not sorry I know it (knew it?), but find no use for it these days...

I really don't want to learn .NET!

[ironhunter]

Thanks Fuel Pump. can you get me some good color pics of the stuff he has? I'm having a time getting pics like I need.
thanks
Ray

[zman]

[ QUOTE ]

As for Perl... well four and five years ago people who knew Cobal were doing real well and more recently I've seen lots of opportunities to use FoxPro. But those were almost all short-lived projects. I haven't seen a need for Cobal in the last few years, and the FoxPro projects are all migrations to something else.


[/ QUOTE ]

The reason why Cobal was so hot 4 or 5 years ago was legacy code and Y2K. That's it. They needed to update the code for it then they were done. Cobal is pretty much over now. I don't think Perl is anywhere near that, especially if you work in a Unix environment.

[Revhead]

I've made a few. I rarely finish one before I find some better way of doing it and start completely over. I'd love to use PHP, but for my personal stuff I can't afford the extra hosting costs, and for my dad's site www.quadravox.com (http://www.quadravox.com) I didn't have enough time.

[CLSSY56]

Here is the web site I have been tinkering with for little over a year now. I basically work on it when I am bored. I'm using a program called "Cool Pages" which is really easy to use, BUT don't use AIM while using it http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif you'll loose what you just did (Cool Pages will crash).

http://www.htc.net/~clssy56/Tri-5ChevyMain.html

I was just planning on doing 56s, but the guys on CT begged me to expand it to 55 and 57s. Which now I have to change the 56 format, oh well....I like them all.

<font color="blue"> Speaking of which.... anyone know of any simple counters for websites. I don't want it linked to anything, just a counter.</font>

[magnet]

I think i agree with ryan a bit on his stance on perl... i dont see it being used as much as before.. for web applications. Even my last app was a php front end with a perl backend.
But i see it being used more in other areas. I use it for all kinds of Sys admin stuff and network maintenance tools.. its great.
Probably wont ever die.. like the way of cobol... people try to tell me that TCL is dead... but companies still use it to program test tools and i know plenty of people that write tons in it.

The key is , use what you know...

But back to the original question on this topic..

The key is to not be afraid to learn as much as you can, dont be scared of the acronyms, read tons of books and ask questions. And be prepared to work hard, even if it isnt exactly what you went to school for. You may find something related that you like AND pays the bills.