what happened to all the old MOLDS and STAMPINGS

[Germ]

say like the MOLDS for old speed stuff?

or the PRESSES for OLD SHEET METAL at the FORD plants?
GRILLS..??

VISORS?
BODY PANELS?
COWLS?

etc etc,,,

any old PICTURES?

I'm kinda curious about the MACHINARY that was USED?

Did the places that CAST the old speed parts KEEP the MOLDS?

other then that...

Go drink some vodka and run in the snow..

germ

[Tuck]

they wear them out and then sell them to ol' mexico... then we buy the sorta-fit parts from them for half price...

[SamIyam]

I heard a rumor about some stamping dies tucked away in NewYork... but I aint talkin'...

Sam.

[disastron13]

In one old foundry a guy told me-"we burned the molds to heat the place"...
Ome old scrapper told mer "We cut up a hundred motorcucles a DAY during WWII"
Ford licenses the old presswork to restorer's companies.
And all the car companies sell or lease their presswork to Argentena, Germany, Brazil etc.
It's a consumer society man, nothin lasts forever
Drunk as a lemur on a West Texas Friday night

[greaseball]

Germ's back????
Who's Christmas wish was it for him to post again?
...I can't remember,
but somebody's WISH came TRUE!
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Germ]

It was your wish, cause you needed me to confirm what you thought your older sister was lying about, and that was that HALF BREED MEXICANS have dicks AS LARGE as ZEBRAS......

you have to wonder if she drank the EGG NOG

I'm NATIVE to CALIFORNIA.
so move away

germ

[Travis]

I'm curious too cuz I saw some old Moon catalogs and they had shit for the W engines like finned timing covers etc. Wonder what happened to that stuff...

Travis

[Tuck]

i wonder if marcus had any at one time... if he did they prob. got stolen

[greaseball]

Zebra's, huh?
Is it STRIPED too?

When do you want your model A stuff?
I gotta have it all GONE by the 17th.....?
Let me know...?
Thanks!

[Fastsporty]

If it was pre-WWII it probably got turned into a tank or a plane,or maybe even a bomb to drop on Hitler's ass. Also I have heard that they use to melt down the old molds to make new ones.
Tuck that was a good one,, maybe we should ask him how big zebra dicks get?

[titus]

I think offenhouser (who ever owns em now) retained all there old molds or re-made some because i thought i seen you can special order all the old intakes again, but i could be remembering wrong.
I also thought i heard alot of ford molds were destroyed and recycled into new molds??

[mr57]

I remember reading somewhere that whoever supplied the wood for 49-51 Merc woodies had to use a 150 ton press to heat-press the outside doors on the wagons out of 1" or 1 1/2" plywood. The company needed that kind of pressure to form the compound curve on the door skin.

[shoebox72]

A few years ago when scrap prices were decent and my friend and I were junking cars, at the scrapyard I saw a crucible/mold that looked to be a 5 spoke rim but it was just the center,spoke area. Both pieces were there but only one was facing up. The refractory cement was chunked & gouged in places I know. I don't have a clue where they came from but stuff like that is still out there.
Just another unanswered question I guess.

Billy

[Lionheart]

Havent ya heard, OLD MOLDS never DIE, They just MOLD AWAY.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[thirtytwo]

[ QUOTE ]
I heard a rumor about some stamping dies tucked away in NewYork... but I aint talkin'...

Sam.

[/ QUOTE ]a friend of mine says he was out east and met someone that knew someone that had lots of the old dies like 30s ford stuff, told him his friend was full of shit, he said he thought so too, but says he saw them with his own eyes, i still think its BS but he was very adament, anythings possible i guess , but i woulda figures they were scraped for sure during ww-2

[El Caballo]

Dennis Carpenter buys them, I've seen them. Molds for all kinds of stuff.

[hillbilly]

they go to russia, comrade germ....

Zil or Packard??? (http://digilander.libero.it/cuoccimix/ENGLISH-automotorusse9-G(Zil).htm)

packard was selling the dies to the reds since roosevelt made some kinda deal with em back during WWII....

im sure somewhere in siberia, there is probably a russian made model T clone running around with a hammer and sickle taillights, painted primer black, with cast iron 5 spokes made from old american dies, and powered by a russian diesel tank engine...

[Elmo Rodge]

Hey Jack, next time you're down South gimme a holler and I'll show you some junk. Wayno
elmorodge@yahoo.com

[reefer]

I heard years ago that a company (I think it was called the V8 shop)had the stamping tools for the 34 grill, but they got fucked when they or someone tried stamping stainless steel,I don`t know if this is fact or fiction but I made calls all over the world when I was chasing a grill for my 34 about 20 years ago, and I heard it said more than once..It seems a firm in Canada used to buy up any 34 grills they could find(Timins or Timkens) I think they were called to put on a repro 34 roadster they used to make.

Does`nt Bob Drake have some gennie dies that he licences from Ford?

[48_HEMI]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious too cuz I saw some old Moon catalogs and they had shit for the W engines like finned timing covers etc. Wonder what happened to that stuff...

Travis

[/ QUOTE ]



Travis,
Moon still offered those valve covers the last I heard, and there no name too! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[chopolds]

Along the same lines as this topic....there used to be an "Urban Legend" back in the late 70's I heard about. Seems when the 58 Chevies came out, a bunch of designers, and/or engineers from Chevy got so disgusted that they dropped the 57 Chevy, that they took the molds, and were building them in South Carolina, or Georgia, or somewhere. They would sell the cars as 'used cars' on car lots in the South. Seems they were doing this til about 1967, or so.
That's the version I had heard back in 78-79.

[Fat Hack]

Lots of American automakers ended up selling their old tooling to plants in South America who used them for decades...that's why you see curious things like 62 Falcons with square headlights and cheesy plastic grilles registered as newer vehicles there!

But, for most old speed parts, I'd imagine that most of those toolings have been melted, scrapped, lost, damaged or forgotten about, unfortunately!

[J Man]

I work at a GM stamping plant in Pittsburgh. Lately we have bee getting rid of a lot of our dies. Around here they sell them to the scrap yards to be broken down and scraped.

[286merc]

An Edelbrock rep at a dragstrip show told me they left the obsolete molds in a building behind their place when the moved some years ago.
When they realized this and went back they discovered the new owners sent it all to a scrap dealer.

Any truth to this?

Ive been trying to get them interested in repopping the 573 Y Block intake but all I get is "they havent found enough interest to warrant it".

Given a cherry intake to work from what is involved in starting anew? Rough start up costs?

[Nads]

Classic Chevy International has displays of original tri-Chevy stamping dies, mostly for trim pieces.
These fuckers are unbelievably huge and heavy. I'm talking wall thicknesses of 12 inches and more. I can't imagine how huge the presses must be to sctuate these bastards.
Unfortunately they moved from Orlando to Titusville, their scratch and dent room was full of amazing stuff. I can't go for my weekly visits anymore.

[Roothawg]

There is a guy in Tulsa that has all the old Auburn molds. He is up in his 80's now and I have a friend that is trying to get us a shop crawl.....

[stolenmojo]

a "typical" press for sheet metal work can be 200 to 400 ton capacity. hence the 12" thick walls on dies and tooling.

[40Tudor]

I toured Bob Drake's shop a couple of years ago. His dies are lagely made from good original parts using what they called a tracing mill. It's a two-headed Bridgeport - one head with a stylus to follow the contours of the part and the other head with a ball end mill to cut the cavity. This roughs in the shape before his toolmakers finish it off by hand. I believe most of his metal processing is done in California. All his molded rubber is done in a smelly room in the back of his shop in Grants Pass OR.

As I understand it, the Ford licensing gets you access to original Ford prints but not tooling. If you have only one tool, you could only license one company. It's easy to copy prints.

Drake's '34 grille is done in 11 or 14 hits, whereas Ford did it in one hit. Multiple hits gets him the opportunity for better quality and probably makes it easier to do stainless.

I'm not in the auto industry, but I'd think that few prewar dies survived the WWII scrap drives. That's a lot of steel to hang on to - each of Drake's '34 grille dies is the size of a refridgerator.

[Tman]

Yes, that 34 die was broken by a dumbass mistake. I know where it is sitting.

Offy still offers many of their old intakes, they do small runs as demand grows. I am sure if we had enough W motor interest and Tay Offenhauser has the molds, we could get any the old stuff done. Oh yeah, I am a dealer for em.

Not car related but Schwinn related. The original tooling for the Black Phantom ended up underwater,holding a dock down at the Schwinn familys mansion in Northern Wisconsin.

[Travis]

Yeah I know they have the valve covers... just wondered about the rest of the stuff. I'll have to dig up my old pictures and flyers. I even have one for old striping brushes??

Travis

[burndup]

Now, its more about machining than it is stamping and casting, but I just got this book:

http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks7/auto13/index.html

Only gotten a few pages into it, but its freakin awesome... lots of pictures. Its hard for me to imagine that manufacturing had already become "so refined" by around 1914.

To me it puts the industrial revolution in a much more massive perspective, and even so much more so the WWII industrial buildup, which claimed almost all the cool toys...

[D Picasso]

all molds and stampings made in the 20th century are piled behind Disastron's trailer.

[Kartsa]

Take a look at this
http://www.autogallery.org.ru/gaza.htm
Russian made A Fords.

[choprods]

Id always heard that the sheetmetal dies for the 55-57 chevys were sold to South american companies and used to make ---TAXIS-----!!!!!any truth to this?

[fuel pump]

I can tell you for a fact what happened to the dies and tooling (at least one set of it) for the 97 carbs. In the late 60s it was used to build OE service carbs at the Bendix plant in Elmira NY. I was working there at the time they decided to scrap it all. They cut it up so it couldn't be used again. The plant manager who decided to clean house and make room for new tooling couldn't have cared less about a few crazy hot rodders that wanted that old stuff. I wouldn't be surprised that this happened to a lot of that old "junk".

[19Fordy]

I heard the same story about the Russian's got them. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[ray]

don't forget that these DIES(not many OLD cars used MOLDS http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif) just plain wore out by the time they were done. why do you think the parts didn't fit for shit when NEW? late production run stuff is typically gonna have terricle tolerances. think of old injection molded model kits, gobs of flash etc. now think of the steel dies being squashed in a huge press, wasn't much use to keep worn out dies, even if someone were so inclined.

and typically in sand casting, the patterns were simply made of wood, yep a few survive, but not many. your best bet is an example like edelbrock, who had their own foundry, now the speed parts that were cast by an outside foundry, good luck! they probably got shit canned fairly quick.

[cabriolethiboy]

I used to work for Guide Lamp about 25 years ago. Yes, the one that used to make the headlights. At the time it was a division of General Motors. Our molds and dies had runs of millions of parts, so after the run they are pretty much worn out. What is not worn out are modified to run in smaller machines with shorter runs to be used for service or modified for the next model year. After the service runs are done then it(mold or die) is put on the shelf for a while, then there is usually a clean-up campain and they are scrapped. When they are scrapped they are supposed to be destroyed. I saw a mold that I built one time at a scrap yard, it had weld from a stick welder over the polished surface of the mold. It could have been fixed, but with a lot of work. Besides that some of our molds were approx. 24"x36"x60". Some even bigger than that. Can you guess what that chunk of steel would cost even at scrap price. And what would you haul it in if you bought it? Also you would have to have some pretty big equipment to run them on too. It would be hard to speculate on something that is only 8-10 years old. Still, some seem to survive.

[Mutt]

As late as the 70's, few would have predicted that hot rodding would be where it is now. Most of the stuff that was kept, was kept as neat stuff to have, not for later use. There's probably a lot of stuff sitting in barns, garages, and basements still waiting to be discovered. Problem is getting legal right to reproduce it.
The holders of patents and copywrites know what can be made from it.

[roadstar]

I know where all the dies are for the 1932 Ford Roadster bodys. But there not old http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[chromedRAT]

not die related, but i know a guy around here that has all things studebaker. has an unfinished, rough casting of an aluminum piston and some of the sand left over from the casting bins from 64. stuff's still in the building, or was when he was there a couple of years ago. just kinda neat.

[ray]

man love em or hate em, there is qwite a story behind them studebakers.

i don't know about now, but i know about ten years ago many of the 50's-60's stude prototypes and styling exercises were still rotting away in the woods of south bend. and warehouses with nos parts just sitting around. its amazing how the factory was left for decades.

[Petejoe]

I had read that Delorean dumped all his tooling for the stainless bodies in the Pacific ocean after encountering his problems.

[av8]

This is typical of sheet metal stamping tooling used by Ford et al in the wayback. This is a '31 Model A front fender die in a 400-ton press, the largest Ford used at the time. This was at Ford's Long Beach, California, plant. BTW, those massive webs are part of the die, not the press!

[burndup]

You know, you guys missed out. Ya couldh had the sweet stamping setup... About 2 yrs ago here in Burbank, they tore down the last Lockheed building, on the edge of the airport, where they did p-38's and stuff during the war. There was this MASSIVE stamping press that they had to tear the building down around first, then try and figure out how to get rid of it. Thing was three stories tall. They said anyone who wants it can come and get it! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Obviously no one did. So next, it looked like they were digging a big hole next to it, perhaps to tip it over into the hole and bury it. Rumor was then that the thing protruded underground another TWO stories. SO, they filled the hole back in, got more dirt, and piled it up against the side, so when the crew of guys with plasma cutters came, what fell off wouldn't fall so far. Took em quite some time to cut it up, and they still neded massive equipment to haul away the "little" chunks.

Now the place is a parking lot, with a premium "covered parking" section. Interesting how priorities change in 60 years, from making tactical aircraft to making little overhangs so SUV's don't get dirty so fast.
-J

[quickrod]

just wanted to say,this post rules! hope more people can add more stories,i knew germ was smarter than he leads us to believe http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[CrazyDaddy]

Ford sold the '34 3-window dyes to Hupmobile, who used them for a couple of years before they went under. Most dies used for stamping sheet metal can only last so long before the stress takes it's toll. I'd be surprised, if any of the old Ford dies were found, that they were still usable. Still cool to find, tho.
Elmo, yes there is some 'junk' in your yard...

[BigJim394]

Over the years there have been a couple of stories in the rod mags about how one of the big manifold makers back in the 50's and 60's (can't remember if it was Offy, Weiand, or Edelbrock) had a lot of the wooden patterns for their old, no longer in demand, manifolds in a warehouse, and that some of the employees used to throw some of them in the back of their truck when they were going to the dry lakes races. They used to burn them in campfires at night to keep warm. They had no idea that those "obsolete" patterns / forms would ever be needed again.

[Flipper]

I work for a stamping house also. Once a program ends amd "service requirements" are met, the tools get trashed.

Some get modified and turned into something else....especially structural components.

Also, some less than perfect parts end up being sold as service parts. Paying high dollar for NOS repair parts may not be the smartest thing to do.

[shoebox72]

[ QUOTE ]
Ford sold the '34 3-window dyes to Hupmobile, who used them for a couple of years before they went under.

[/ QUOTE ]

CORD, not Ford, Sold their dies to Hupmobile.

Billy

[mr57]

Shoebox and crazydaddy are both right. I've seen a three window Hupp that was indistinguishable body-wise from a Ford. Frame and fenders were completely different. And 40-1 Hupp Skylarks used the Cord Beverley tooling.

[enjenjo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ford sold the '34 3-window dyes to Hupmobile, who used them for a couple of years before they went under.

[/ QUOTE ]

CORD, not Ford, Sold their dies to Hupmobile.

Billy

[/ QUOTE ]

Ford didn't own the dies for the 3 window, Budd did. When the model changed in 35, Budd sold the same body with minor modifications to Hupp.

Cord didn't own the dies for the cord either, Budd again. the Cord body eventually became the Graham, and later the Hupp.

Believe it or not, the original concept for the production Mustang was a modified 57 T Bird body, on a Falcon chassis floor pan. One was built by Budd, who owned the dies for the T Bird too.

Most dies are sold for scrap after a few years, and being made unusable. The scrap buyers don't just melt it down though, they have testing done to determine the exact alloy, cut them into smaller pieces, and resell them as die steel.So most large dies cease to exist shortly after being sold.

[shoebox72]

Thanks for clearing that up. Ya learn somethin' new everyday.

Billy

Great post Germ!!!!
Clark

[Elmo Rodge]

Enjejo, this actually transpired in 1934. Take a look at a Model W417 ('34)Hupp Three Window. (They're everywhere, right?) I haven't seen a W517 (1935) but imagine it's the same. Interesting car. On the subject of foundry patterns, it is amazing how foundries treat patterns that are still in use. It's a wonder anything exists. Wayno
P.S; Tom, I didn't mean your junk. I meant other junk. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Kevin Lee]

When I was looking at wierd OHV and OHC stuff for flatheads I happened to see quite a few patterns for speed equipment hanging on Speedy Bill's wall.

Wonder how hard it would be to cast heads for a flatty? They don't look that complex compared to an intake. Something like a ROOF head could be dead simple cast in two pieces and bolted together.

[Kilroy]

Elmo might even show you this but the old Evans wood moulds still exist but were left out in the rain and are warped cracked and otherwise ruined.

Weiand's daughter still had all the old flatty moulds in the back of the building before she sold out. A friend of mine tried to buy them but no salt. She wasn't letting them go.

Offenhauser still has all the moulds for their old stuff (overhead, adapters, etc). At least thats what Tay told me. He pretty much has no intrest in reviving stuff though. He said if he got enough orders for a givin part he might turn out a few.

[cabriolethiboy]

Funny you should mention Roof. I am from Anderson, Indiana where Roof was from. A good friend and hot rodder buddy was a distant relative to Robert Roof and his uncle had all of the patterns and blueprints for the Roof stuff after Roof died. His uncle eventually sold them to Bill Smith. But that was before I knew him. Probably in the 60's. He said his uncle moved a couple of times and he carried that stuff from house to house. He said there were quite a few bare unmachined castings that Smith got too. I have been trying to find some Roof V8 heads and intake for quite a while, but he didn't make much V8 stuff. You would think there would be some of that stuff in this town, but I haven't run in to any yet. I've searched the library for information on Roof, but I guess it wasn't important enough to record anything. There was a guy here in town that has a model T Roof engine in a speedster. He died within the last year and his wife still has it.

[stan292]

I worked for a retail subsidiary of Mickey Thompson Enterprises (a place called American Speed & Custom) in Garden Grove, CA back in 1969. We only used a small portion of the building (the former Garden Grove Post Office) for the retail operation and the back part was chock full of miscellaneous M/T goodies, including many, many wooden "bucks" (sand-cast forms) for various M/T parts. Lots of intake manifolds, etc.

The stuff was still there when I left, and I bet it just got shitcanned whenever they vacated that building. I'm sure I could have taken whatever I wanted, but was too stupid to think ahead. I did get a couple handfulls of misc. throttle linkage and small hardware items, but that's all.

Speaking of related "urban legends", the story back then was that Mickey had some warehouses (in Long Beach, as I recall) where he supposedly stored virtually every piece of equipment he ever owned - including dozens of complete cars and motors. I was told he had indy cars, dragsters, funny cars, bonneville stuff, etc. stacked to the ceiling like chordwood. Also, crate upon crate of DOHC (Indy motors) and SOHC 427 Ford motors.

It seems like that stuff would have surfaced by now - especially after Mickey was murdered, but who can say?

[jmuk]

Craig Conley at Paradise Wheels in California owns most of the Paxton/McCulloch moulds.