View Full Version : Projects friction shock mounting


oj
12-17-2012, 06:07 PM
Will a friction shock work ok if mounted upside down? Or are there different rates bump/rebound and have to be mounted rightside up?
I have bare frame rails and those shocks are big. I included a couple pics of the shock under the rail, i am playing with the location so don't get all excited about the nearness of the spring etcetc - i am eyeballing.
The 3rd pic is the shock on top of the framerail and the 4th pic is where i was in favor of putting it as the shock would work better.
What do you guys think?
Thanks, oj

Traditions Racing
12-17-2012, 06:15 PM
oj, I know it's late and you work really hard and must be tired. I would call those a Rotary Vane Lever Arm Shock Absorber or Dampner. Below is a picture of a Friction type shock. Hope that helps old friend, sorry I can't answer your question precisely, TR

38Chevy454
12-17-2012, 06:17 PM
First off that is not a friction shock. That uses hydraulic fluid inside to provide the dampening. I believe it will work upside down, but wait for a better answer form a person with better knowledge of the shock design.

Heo2
12-17-2012, 06:26 PM
Thats not a friction shock they are hydraulic shocks
For the love of god stop calling them friction shocks
You are not the only one so dont take it like i kick
you in the ass. I want to kick all of you calling them
friction shocks in the ass
They are adjustable but probably the adjustment rusted
solid long time ago
I think they need to be mounted the way they are
mounted stock to work properly
And they are real expensive to rebuild if they dont work
They are called Houidale spelling may bee of a litle
but google and there is som ifo

fab32
12-17-2012, 06:26 PM
Nope, what you have are not friction shocks but internally dampened hydraulic units. Friction shocks rely on the clamping force between friction discs to provide the dampening..........no hydraulics involved.

Frank

Marty Strode
12-17-2012, 06:35 PM
OJ, These shocks are 60's era MG/Sprite rears, I have been using them for years, just something to consider, if you cannot make those work.

oj
12-17-2012, 06:41 PM
Yup, i couldn't spell houdaille either so i wrote friction knowing there was hydraulics involved. I gathered a bunch of these up and will crack some open to see whats what inside.
So you guys don't think they'll work ok upside down, how about ones that will mount to the side of the framerail - did ford make any of them?
TraditionsRacing, i tried to send you a pm about your avatar - TFeverFred has a better one but that one of yours is too much! and has to be in the top 5 avatars on the hamb....now there is a good idea for a thread.
more thoughts guys?

oj
12-17-2012, 06:47 PM
OJ, These shocks are 60's era MG/Sprite rears, I have been using them for years, just something to consider, if you cannot make those work.


Marty, My Buddie! Those are the ticket! I am ashamed to admit i have some similiar to them, Armstrong shocks?, and had planned to use them on the rear. Mine look larger than yours, but i will mess with them. I stuck one up there and it looks like a natural.
Thanks, oj

The37Kid
12-17-2012, 06:52 PM
Those Forf shocks are designed as right and lefts, so it does matter were you mount them. Bob

falcongeorge
12-17-2012, 07:46 PM
Somewhere on here, I found a link to a how-to on rebuilding the houll...Hool...Holl argh!!! Those shocks. I'll see if I can find it.

Bingo. Didnt take as long as I thought it would.

http://www.tocmp.com/manuals/Ford/Haudaille/index.html

Bruce Lancaster
12-17-2012, 07:54 PM
Psychoanalyze the things...
First, pull the arms up and down.
Add fluid to the level of plug with them upright...pull again, there should be good stiff resistance in both directions if healthy.
Turnemover and calmp to frame...how do they feel now??

Traditions Racing
12-17-2012, 09:05 PM
Here's a brief history lesson I was able to dig up. In 1925 Ralph Peo invented a solution to the current seal problem inherent of the friction shock. The seals or friction devices at the time were either round leather washers or pieces of hemp rope providing the friction. Instead he redesigned a damper to use a rotating piston rod and vane assembly to replace the long travel sliding seal with a short 60-120* rotating travel rotary piston and vane inside of a round clock type housing.

The Houdaille Company was in Buffalo N.Y. The majority of cars using the Houdaille shocks were Ford, Lincoln, and Mercury from the late 20z to the late 40z. General Motors cars of course used a Delco version. Other car company's using the Houdaille were Packard, Studebaker, Ferrari, Jaguar, MG, Chrysler, Pierce Arrow, and Cord. Some of these company's also used the Delco as well.

A company rebuilding these are, www.applehydraulics.com (http://www.applehydraulics.com), they are as to be expected labor intensive to be done correctly. I am not recommending this company per say, as I have not yet dealt with them personally and are just want to pass on the info. Apparantly they also rebuild Brittish SU and Zenith/Stromberg carbs, as well as wheel cylinders and slave cylinders, and all types of lever arm shock absorbers, TR

Traditions Racing
12-17-2012, 09:22 PM
The MG shocks shown above yes are the ARMSTRONG Lever Shocks.

34-38 Chevy and 34-36 Pontiac also used a totally different shock on some models called the Dubonnet Knee Action shock.

Any of the shocks mentioned can be rebuilt by the company who's link I have provided, very best to all, TR

fordor41
12-17-2012, 11:48 PM
These shocks are filled with oil. I doubt that it makes any diff how they're mounted. Clamp them in a vice and try them. They probably will work in any position. Make sure they're filled all the way.

Marty Strode
12-18-2012, 01:50 AM
The MG shocks shown above yes are the ARMSTRONG Lever Shocks.

34-38 Chevy and 34-36 Pontiac also used a totally different shock on some models called the Dubonnet Knee Action shock.

Any of the shocks mentioned can be rebuilt by the company who's link I have provided, very best to all, TR Those are the small Armstrongs, Girling built some that are similar, used on British cars as well.

schutejame
12-18-2012, 01:56 AM
That uses hydraulic fluid inside to provide the dampening.http://www.odauto.com/song9-4.jpghttp://www.hgniw.info/a125.jpghttp://www.odauto.com/15.jpghttp://www.odauto.com/16.jpghttp://www.odauto.com/17.jpghttp://www.hgniw.info/uk.jpg

barry wny
12-18-2012, 02:35 AM
I tried mine and they worked the same however I clamped them down. I pulled the plugs and dumped and rinsed out the old crud and put in some new hydraulic oil. Worked even better and put them on however they fit best

oj
12-18-2012, 07:51 AM
I tried mine and they worked the same however I clamped them down. I pulled the plugs and dumped and rinsed out the old crud and put in some new hydraulic oil. Worked even better and put them on however they fit best


Hydraulic oil like used in the hydraulic cylinders for backhoes etc or automatic transmission fluid type oil?

Traditions Racing
12-18-2012, 08:28 AM
oj, heres where things get real sticky with the Rotary Vane shocks. Fluids, they may have come originally w/ 3 different types of fluid.

Castor: Raised coin shaped fill plug.
Mineral: Raised nipple shaped fill plug.
Glycerin: Flat top shaped fill plug.

The problem here lies that cleaning out the old fluid with the incorrect solvent and you end up with a gooey mess of pig vomit. Best bet if you are not rebuilding the shock is to drain some fluid out and try some different solvents until you find one compatable with the current fluid.

MAC'S AUTO has part# A18099 for fluid for 1928-48.
SNYDERS has part # M-1046, but list it as only for 1928-31.

My reasearch has shown some say use Hydraulic like Jack oil, and others say never use the jack oil.

Most seem to agree on cleaning them out, replacing seals, and using Mobil-1 15-50 Synthetic Engine oil.

Others say 50/50 STP and hydraulic Jack oil is good.

Ive read McMaster Carr has new seals, but don't have the part#.

The link I gave for Apple Hydraulics seems to be the ticket, rebuilts run around $165 per unit.

That's all I have for now oj.

Traditions Racing
12-18-2012, 08:40 AM
According to Bill Stipe at the Ford Barn, there is a difference in CW and CCW rotation pressures. According to Bill they are designed with a 40/60 type of action or dampning depending on rotation. Fluid viscocity as well effects the damping characteristics, which only stands to reason, TR.

oj, I was thinking that if you clamp the unit solidly in a vise, and with a fishing scale, you might very easily be able to both measure and record the amount of pull in either direction and compare.

We sometimes use this principle with race engines for recording and matching the pull of a piston with rings through thier respective cylinders. I'm quite certain you may have heard of that before. A much heavier scaled fishing scale would be needed for the pressure or resistance of the Houdaille shock as opposed to the drag on a low-tension ringed race engines piston.

refried confusion
12-18-2012, 09:04 AM
Traditions Racing has given some very good info, Not many people know anything about lever shocks.
I'd give Bob at Apple a call, He will be able to answer any questions you have about lever shocks. I worked for Bob about 30 years ago and recall the seals not being available, We would machine the housing of the Armstrong shocks to get a good seal into it that wouldn't leak. I don't remember if the seals were available for the Delco or the Houdaille shocks. I remember the Armstrong shocks used Armstrong oil but don't recall what was used in the others.

Bruce Lancaster
12-18-2012, 09:34 AM
Stuff: The fluid fill is to level of filler plug, one area that MIGHT need a mod of simply drilling and tapping another hole to keep everything wet. There ar lots of arm types, but most are not easily removable to correct rotation. actual function can be checked just by forcing rotation and noting resistance, as many of these have been run dry and become totally worn out... Ford had some checks that involved a specific weight on lever and timing the fall of the arm in each direction! Rebound and jounce differ; many of these shocks were rebuilt specially for Indy cars and other circle trackers to 50/50 for racing.
Rebuilding on ones that have not been ruined is not easy, as the high torque needed to unscrew parts requires massive holding fixtures, looong wrenches, and some special grippers...the kit shown in the shop manuals is impressive. Parts were select fit for tight clearances and so are not readily interchangeable...generally, try to find examples that still resist and don't mess with them! The ones here are failry late ones, somewhere in 1940's I think, and so are for fairly heavy car and may well have plenty of resistance for a light rod, and you do have the adjuster to mess with..

refried confusion
12-18-2012, 09:47 AM
xxx

oj
12-18-2012, 10:11 AM
I recall a guy showing how to rebuild them, the fixture that you bolted the shock body to was welded to a steel post that supported his building. The arm of the breaker bar was like Bruce said, 4' or longer?
After that, how hard can it be?

R Frederick
12-18-2012, 10:32 AM
I made brackets to make mine work out.
REAR:
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb241/dirtmod08/23paint048.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb241/dirtmod08/23paint049.jpg

FRONT:
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb241/dirtmod08/23paint030.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb241/dirtmod08/23paint028.jpg

Traditions Racing
12-18-2012, 01:18 PM
Here is a link to the complete manual for rebuilding, www.tocmp.com/manuals/Ford/Haudaille/index.html (http://www.tocmp.com/manuals/Ford/Haudaille/index.html), you can see all of the original tools, and procedures for rebuilding, hope that helps everyone following along- TR

Traditions Racing
12-18-2012, 01:20 PM
Thank you refried confusion for the compliment!!! Much appreciated sir, TR

Traditions Racing
12-18-2012, 06:46 PM
Bttt

refried confusion
12-18-2012, 06:53 PM
Your Welcome Traditions, It's always a pleasure to read posts from someone who knows what they're talking about.