History Research: Whiteman-Navarro Oxygen Injection

[magnet]

Hey everyone

I saw this in California Bills Ford Speed Manual (link to amazon here (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1555611052/qid=1073672134//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i7_xgl14/002-8184971-3546464?v=glance&s=books&n=507846#product-details))

http://www.mikeferrari.com/misc/air1.jpg

I have been thinking about this for years, and was suprised to see someone playing with oxygen injection back in the day.

I need to know anything anyone can find about this setup, the roadster, tech specifics, the whole thing. I want to try something like this sometime later this year. I need to know anything about the Whiteman roadster, the years it ran, the times it turned in, Barney Navarro and his experiment, the issue of Hop Up it may have ran in.. if anything ever ran in the mag. Also maybe info about the photographer "Trindle", maybe he has more pics...

From what i gather from the pic.. there was a compressed oxygen cylinder somewhere on the car with a feed line to the firewall.. where the hoses on the top of the carbs connected. From there the oxygen passed through the mount/valve body attached between the carbs. I believe the oxygen pressure was regulated with the long screws sticking out the side.
My big questions are.. if you are jamming more oxygen into the carb... what happens to your fuel/air mixture.. obviously you need to increase the amount of fuel.. was it adjustable? was it static? was it supplementary? and what happens to the vacuum levels in the manifold? you are forcing air in.. do you need to force so much in it negates or overpowers the vacuum? not enough will just reduce your vacuum to negligable levels.

I guess some of my questions are basic supercharger/blower questions, as i am not familiar with them.

Anyway.. thanks for any input anyone can give.

[Tuck]

its the same EXACT concept as Nitrous?

with the same exact concequences...

[raven]

If it's PURE oxegen, then it burns.
It and Hydrogen have the ability to produce more BPU's of energy than gas/air mixture.
I'm looking into running Hydrogen...
r

[magnet]

Nahh i think its toootally different than nitrous...

First you are not injecting a fuel.. Second nitrous injects into the manifold.. not above the carb.. ummm in most cases.

also you are just injecting a small amount of fuel.. here you are injecting mass quantities of oxygen.. lots of oxygen.

Nitrous relies on the air already existing in the fuel/air mixture, cause its superflamable.. with oxygen injection you would be changing the fuel/air mixture

[Petejoe]

I am far from any expert on this but these are my thoughts.
It takes an exact amount of fuel and air to be effective in combustion. Regardless of whether your just sucking in oxygen from a regular carb or blowing it in with pressurization the carbs will only use what the engine will bring into it on the intake stroke of the cylinder. My feeling ..blowing oxygen into an engine thats not equipped to do so will have no effect other than an adjustment of the carbs fuel air mixture may have to be made. The only way I see it.. The air?oxygen has to be highly forced in with something other that the intake stroke like a blower.
Just a guess...........

[Kommuter]

It's really a lot like nitrous...with one big exception. Nitrous (N2O) is inert, while pure oxygen is highly flammable. With a nitrous system, the nitrogen and oxygen are split chemically by the heat of the combustion process, leaving the oxygen to interact with the excess fuel that must be introduced at the same time. If no extra fuel is added, the mixture will go way lean, and burn holes in the pistons. The nitrogen left over just passes out with the exhaust, still inert.

The oxygen and nitrous systems are similar in that the expanding vapor will greatly decrease the temperature of the incoming air, reducing the combustion temperature, allowing a richer mixture, and limititng detonation.

I believe the oxygen injection systems ideas were set aside with the advent of nitrous. Still a neat idea, but the flammability issue is very serious. I'm sure most sanctioning bodies won't allow it, either.

[Tuck]

dude im sorry man but OXYGEN is FUEL

and N2O is NITROGEN and OXYGEN


The benifit to NOS over pure OXYGEN is that the nitrogen produces a dense air mixture, all the atoms are tight, you can get more oxygen/air/fuel into the cyl.


Tuck

[Tuck]

Kommuter pulled that off with way more tact than me...

[magnet]

ok .. 02 is a fuel... i was meaning in the traditional sense.. like liquid fuel at standard atmospheric pressue..

seriously though.. yeah you will have to increase the amount of gasoline... just like having a big old blower sitting on top of the motor.

But lets not redirect this post to a conversation about the pro's and cons of nitrous... this is a research deal.. trying to figure out what Barney Navarro and Mr. Whiteman were doing.

The road behind my house... has no sactioning body :-)

[Kommuter]

Oxygen is not really a fuel, it is an oxidizer. It allows fuel to burn. Most fuel is carbon, hydrogen or a combination. For me to have said oxygen is flammable is really a misnomer. Fuels are flammable. If compressed oxygen gets ignited in the presence of any fuel, then it will burn. No fuel, no burn. OK, enough of the chemistry...

I think this type of system was tried on WWII aircraft, just like nitrous was. Trying to gain the advantage at altitude, without putting the stress on the parts all the time. Could these guys have been using some war surplus technology and parts?

[Tuck]

Kommuter is right i stand corrected... it like in a fuel cell the hydrogen is the fuel (reducing agent) and oxygen is the oxidizing agent

[magnet]

throw a match in a bucket of oxygen...

:-)

anyway...

Yeah i think the regulator was homemade.. was Barney Navarro in the war? did he have something to do with aircraft? maybe he brought the technology or idea with him.

I dont know either way, its cool as hell. I want to try something like it.. with just regular compressed air. I think the principles involved would be just like setting up a big gear driven or belt driven blower only the air source you are blowing in.. is coming from a compressed tank.
also you can fine tune the amount of air.. make it adjustable.. like it looks like they did.

Anyone with info?

[Kommuter]

Did you ever see the guy who lights his charcoal with a bucket of liquid oxygen? Takes like 3 seconds to get the coals ready to BBQ.

Didn't Moon run a FED with compressed air tanks? Seems like I remember seeing pics of that. Maybe it, too, was oxygen. Seems like it would be good for a short duration boost. If you set it up with an on-board compressor, it could be self recharging.

Kinda like how the Lightning pickup uses the A/C to super-cool the intercooler, for a short boost. Extra power on tap, and renews itself. Cool idea.

[magnet]

yeah, hitting the "Blow" button would be cool.. but then you would have to automatically adjust the fuel mixture up... a ton.

an interesting fact i just found out..Barney Navarro was a member of the Glendale Strokers car club before world war II.

I know almost nothing about the so cal/salt flats/early 30's/40's/50's people or cars... being a midwesterner.

[Mike Zenor]

Oxygen isn't a fuel? I thought the space missions use LOX in their tanks. Or was that bagels?

Anyway, what kind of fuuueeel am I....

[raven]

Let's get the differences straight.
Air (that we breathe and that is compressed into the cylinders via blower or normal induction is not O2. Oxygen is approx. 12% of what we breathe.
That's why it's (air) not a fuel.
Pure O2 if extremely flammable. Have you ever been to a hospital ward and seen someone on pure oxygen? Have you ever seen someone smoking while on pue oxygen? If you have you're too close.
If you inject pure oxygen into the induction system, you will increase the flammability of the fuel mixture by the increase of atomization and the addition of a combustable. You can run a vehicle on pure oxygen, but hydrogen is better...
r

[magnet]

yup

[Kommuter]

I knew I started that with the wrong tone...

BTW, the Shuttle uses liquid hydrogen (fuel) and liquid oxygen (oxidizer). The combustion produces massive amounts of energy and... water, H2O (or steam, 'cause it's really hot).

Sorry to geek up a perfectly interesting hot rod history thread, I've just always thought this chemistry stuff was interesting.

[raven]

Well, I stand corrected.
A PHD in chemistry beats me out.
r

Oxygen and Combustion
Technically, combustion (burning) occurs when a substance reacts with oxygen to produce combustion (oxidation) products. Since oxygen atoms cannot react with themselves to produce anything except oxygen molecues or ozone molecules, oxygen does not burn. The nature of the reaction when oxygen forms ozone is different from the electron transfer which occurs in traditional oxidation. Therefore it would be splitting a hair to say that because oxygen atoms can form ozone molecules, oxygen has been oxidized (burned). Thus, oxygen does not burn. It merely supports combustion.

Regards,
ProfHoff

Since oxgen is 'used' in the combustion in that it
enters into the products of the combustion, I would say it is combustable. To act as sort of an "enzyme" in combustion and need to be present but NOT enter into the products of combustion would make it otherwise appear to be non-combustable.
Ric Rupnik

Combustion is the rapid exothermic reaction of some fuel with oxygen.
In the absence of any fuel [combustible material] oxygen does not react.
Vince Calder

Oxygen is an oxidizer, but it is not combustible.
Richard E. Barrans Jr., Ph.D.
Assistant Director
PG Research Foundation, Darien, Illinois

[Mike Zenor]

Plus all the ice on the tanks from the rapid decompression.

Actually, the chemistry of the fuel is an interesting topic (and one I know jack shit about). I've heard people say that a large % of the horsepower gain from NO2 injection is from the colder intake air temperature that it produces. How much of that is true?

[magnet]

ok.. lets not hijack the post... :-)

The goal here is to find out info on the "experimental" carb setup on the whiteman roadster...

a roadster i have never heard anything about..

[magnet]

does anyone have a website or a list of cars that participated in races at the flats in the early 50's? maybe the Whiteman car might be on the list.. that would help narrow down the years i am looking for. I would imagine it would be a big list.. but its worth a shot.

[Mike Zenor]

Okay, ya big galoot.

The Navarro Roadster started life with a 1927 Ford body on Willys frame rails and bodywork by Art Ingles. The car was raced from 1948 – 1953 by Barney Navarro of Glendale, California. The car was raced with California Roadster Assoc. (CRA) on the circle tracks around Los Angeles. It was also raced with the Southern California Timing Assoc. on the dry lakes and at Bonneville, setting many in class fast times over the years. Many considered this car, with its ‘GM C’ roots industrial blower, to be the first successful adaptation of this combination – the grandfather of the modern blown drag race motor used today. Later, Navarro used a pure oxygen injection system in place of the blower set up. With a three litre motor, his fastest times were 146.9 with the blower set up, 136.77 with oxygen, and 78.670 using only four cylinders, setting an ‘O’ streamliner record at Bonneville in 1950.

[Mike Zenor]

Here's a pic from the NHRA museum...

http://www.nhra.com/museum/photos/photo08.jpg

[Morrisman]

Oxygen DOES NOT BURN!

The triangle of combustion is:

HEAT FUEL OXYGEN.

Remove any one of these and there is no combustion. Oxygen on its own is totally inert, but add it to a fire and it will increase the intensity of the fire enormously.

Light a cigarette in an oxygen soaked environment and your ciggy will burn down in seconds, rather than minutes, but the fire WILL NOT SPREAD.

If you want to boost an engine with it you can inject it directly into the carb, and it will displace the shitty weak air mixture that the engine will normally suck in. There's 18% oxygen in the atmosphere, so, if you bung pure oxygen in instead you can add about five times the fuel you normally would, hence five times the power??

Downside? Enormous heat! That's why they use N02, as it cools the charge somehow as well as supplying extra oxygen.

Crack out them welding oxy bottles and stick some big electro controlled N02 fuel jets in your manifold, and give it a go http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[theodore]

[ QUOTE ]
. Oxygen on its own is totally inert, but add it to a fire and it will increase the intensity of the fire enormously.


[/ QUOTE ]
Oxygen is anything but inert...hook an oil pressure gauge up to an oxgyen cylinder and turn on the valve...

[magnet]

oh boy.... what a can of worms i have opened :-)

Hey Zenor, thats a wealth of info.. thanks, i would love to see pics of this setup he had on his roadster.. also any of the Whiteman.. if anyone has them

:-)

[Flatdog]

Magnet why dont you call Barney, a month or so ago he was still kicking.If you catch him right he will talk your ear off,his mind is still very sharp.

[magnet]

here is something...entries from Speed Week in 1949

#70
http://www.landracing.com/events/speedweek/entries49.htm

[Morrisman]

[ QUOTE ]
Oxygen is anything but inert...hook an oil pressure gauge up to an oxgyen cylinder and turn on the valve...

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh dear. What can be done? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[magnet]

I might have to give him a call... that would be great :-) i saw on the net, he returned home from the hospital july last year, hope he is doing well.

[theodore]

My shop teacher is missing some of his face, the gauge exploded right in front of him, oxgyen under pressure is very reactive.

[four-thirteen]

there are two reasons for injecing pure oxygen into a motor. one, the rapidly expanding gas from the tank will be very cold, which would allow you to put more of it into the chamber then if it was warm, and two, the air usually takes in is mostly dia-atomic nitrogen, N2, which goes right through the motor without doing anything but take up space. the idea is you put in more of the two reagents, and get out more power

nitrous oxide, N20, is something totally different. it has the two advangates of injecting oxygen, plus a third major one that blows the other two away. the N20 molecule is aranged in a straight line, with an oxygen atom in th middle of the two nitrogen atoms, like this N-O-N. during combustion, the oxygen reacts with the gasoline to form water and carbon dioxide, which lets loose a fair amount of energy. the two nitrogen atoms don't just float out the exhaust though, they combine to form N2. we all know N2 as a harmless inert gas that takes up a good portion of the air we breathe. what you might not realise is that N2 is inert because it requires a tremendous amount of energy to break apart and form compounds with other things. and it lets out the same amount of energy when it is formed. so the reason to use nitrous oxide is because of the nitrogen, not the oxygen content of the stuff. four-thirteen

[magnet]

So i have two trains of though on this....

One: Air injection- taking regular old breathable air and releasing it into the carb from a compresses cylinder or tank (rechargeable by 12volt air compressor or air conditioning pump) which would give you the same effect as a blower.

Two: Oxygen injection- actually displacing the air with oxygen to get a cleaner hotter more efficient burning mixture in the combustion chamber.

Both have pro's and cons.. both would hinge upon getting the mixture down into the chamber quickly..both would take a bunch of work to get right..

The Navarro roadster is pretty sweet, i have seen that pic before in a book somewhere. Still i haven't come up with anything on the "Whiteman" roadster or the photographer for Hop Up.

Anyone.. Anyone...

[Bugman]

The basic problem as I have heard it stated is that O2 works to well. It causes the burn to be much hotter and faster, and results in melted pistons and valves.

When N2O breaks down, the nitrogen actually inhibits the burn, which in turn keeps the temps down some, which saves the pistons and valves.

I read that in a magazine somewhere a long time ago. Car Craft maybe?
-Bugman Jeff

[Bugman]

I like Magnets air compressor theory. You'd have to have the discharge nozzles close to the valve though so that it didn't just blow back out the top of the carb. I'd think you'd still have to dump some extra fuel in too though.

-Bugman Jeff

[Fastsporty]

I'm a Geek and I love this thread!
For the layman we might want to replace the word "oxidizer" with the word "Catalyst". I get visons of sheet metal rusting when I hear the word oxidize. O2 is inert by itself but can create a hyperfuel when combined with reactants, causing a hotter burn. Now my reserves on using a system like this in a normal engine would be the intense heat it would cause. The benefit of using a nitous system is one of the by products of the air fuel burn is water. No from 413's previous post in a N-O-N the oxygen is knocked out leaving tne nitrogen. when nitrogen then reacts with water byproduct of the burn and creates a temprature drop. So in essence you have a hotter more complete burn that is cooled instantly, keeping your combustion chamber from melting down (china syndrome). If you wanted to use a oxygen system I imagine you can create a creramic engine components to withstand the heat over long periods of time. It probably worked for Barry because he used the system on realitivly short runs. but if you want to see what its like hook it up to nitrous system till you burn a hole in your pistons and throw a rod http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I think I just confused myself because I don't know WTF Iam talking about. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Mutt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oxygen is anything but inert...hook an oil pressure gauge up to an oxgyen cylinder and turn on the valve...

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh dear. What can be done? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif



[/ QUOTE ]

Priceless http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Fastsporty]

Boy, this thread died fast. I guess not enough gossip in it to keep it going. Maybe if GERM (tm) wanted to do this to his car people might be more interested. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Mutt]

Don't mean to hijck the post, but here's a bit about Nitrous oxide.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=question259.htm&url=http://www.idavette.net/hib/nitrous.htm

[FEDER]

Isnt nitrous oxide N2O = Nitrgen 1-part oxygen 2-part?
And wasn't it the Japs that first used N20 in the Zeros?
--Feder

[choprods]

Heres an angle for you run 4 large oxygen bottles[mounted facing valve to rear...] coupled to an accumulator[computerized of course] and plumbed to the intake.Run the motor up to a given point of 'top end" at which time the computer takes over and switches the valve that shuts off static air intake and only allows and increased fuel influx[again computer controlled],and high pressure Oxygen is added to this increased fuel flow till it reaches the maximum combustion ratio......THEN the high pressure Oxygen flow through it will wind that motor up like an air grinder on Crack....[THEN YOU LET IT ALLLLLLL- BLOW OUT ITS ASS END AND IT BLOWS YA TO 300 MILES PER HOUR! :grin-Seriously it could help make it SOME faster-Huh? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[preferolschool]

While I find this post quite interesting . . .

1) You'll never get a 12v compressor to put out a significant amount of air for this application. It'd have to be a high pressure bottled source.
2)But even then we already have an oxygen bearing fuel ... Nitromethane.
From my very basic understanding lets look at blown alcohol dragsters. From what I've heard PSI twin screws are running somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 lbs of boost on alcohol. Now NSRA wont allow twin screws on fuel cars cuase they're afraid of what would happen if a fuel car backfired, at 50 psi. BOOOOM to the moon.but in the blown alcohol dragster class you are now allowed to run an unblown fuel car. So that NSRA considers a 6.5:1 static fuel car equal to 14:1 static + 50 pounds of boost alcohol car.
Or something like that.

as a history lesson this is interesting, but as far as speed goes might as well look for a $20 electric supercharger on ebay.

[metalshapes]

Morrisman, please correct me if I am wrong.
A gas such as Argon is inert, and if Oxygen is inert as well, why do we need Argon to displace Oxygen for Tig welding?
I thought inert ment it is not capable of reacting with another substance.
Pure Oxegen does not burn, but in combiation with heat, can make all kinds of things burn.
Normal fuel, but also human skin ( my old welding teacher had a nasty accident with a Oxygen bottle ), and maybe even the insides of a Hot Rod engine.

[Tuck]

this is a big problem with the oxygen bar scene on the west coast... haha... i can just picture it.

[Hackerbilt]

My thoughts...right or wrong...
Wafting a little regular "air" towards the carb isn't gonna do anything. The engine will just use what it can draw without pressurizing the mix any further than it would without the additional air supply.

Wafting a little Oxygen toward it will increase the power due to its enriching the mixture...IF you add additional fuel to keep the mixture at the right ratio. BUT you still haven't pressurized the intake tract beyond atmospheric.
You wouldn't need to...the extra oxygen is there without the additional volume. Inside the engine would still see the extreme conditions of a blown engine however, so reliability is likely out the window regardless.
If you had a carb backfire in the presence of enough oxygen you just might turn the car into a torch. DON'T play with Oxygen. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Putting a pump in the trunk to pressurize a heavy cylinder WILL boost the engine beyond 1 atmosphere of pressure ( for a short time) IF a sealed carb bonnet is used to prevent the additional air from leaking out. But this would mean ALL air would have to be supplied by the pressurized (AND regulated!)tank. A VERY LARGE, HEAVY tank!!!!
Totally redundant.
Put the pump on the motor and pressurize the engine with good old reliable, basicly inert, "air" directly. It's called a BLOWER and it works without the tank or the resulting weight penalty...and you won't have to worry about oxidizers, catalysts or FLAMING DEATH(tm) as you enjoy it.
There's a fine line between experimentation and suicide ya know! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Ya won't find that line around here however! LoL

Bill

[Hackerbilt]

Hmmm...Just thinking!
MAYBE Navarro was installing the worlds first "Onboard Welder" and wasn't souping the mill at all! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Bill

[magnet]

hehehehe.... onboard piston welder

i think maybe Mr. Navarro was just wafting oxygen down into the carb... maybe not pressurizing the manifold with it.. maybe displacing some of the the "Air" coming in the naturally aspirated motor with oxygen.
But, you never know what he was doing.. it was hard to tell from the picture...

[cornfieldrodder]

During WWII, allied engineers experimented with both nitros and oxegen meterd into the airbox of fighter planes at high altitudes to maintain performance. They were fully aware of supercharging but that was just another thing that required alot of maintainance. Electromagnetic clutches for as needed use of blowers was probably not an optoin as planes were using carburators. A pilot could be trusted to add oxegen to the incoming air charge to keep the exhaust tenp in a desired range. Our miltary found nitrous, with its lower oxegen content easier to control in the heat of conflict. The performance advntage was not an increase but a less deterioration of power.
With technological advances, supercharging was found superior for practical reasons. Mr. Navarro was in our military and certainly made himself familiar with all the tech he could. All those vets leaving the military with a ton of knowlege is what made the golden era of rodding sparkle so brightly.

[four-thirteen]

NITROusoxide, NITRO-methane, hydrazine, tri-NITRO-toluene, NITRO-glycerin, what do these all have in common? they all have nitrogen in them. nitrousoxide and nitro-methane we use to make cars go faster, we use hydrazine to send stuff to space, and we use tri-nitro-toluene and nitro-glycerin to blow stuff up. it's that triple covelent bond between di-atomic nitrogen that makes the power.

i don’t know where that stupid rumor about the nitrogen cooling the burn came from, but it’s 100% pure bullshit, perpetuated by useless magazine writers who don’t do their research. four-thirteen

[voneyeball]

hate to thrown a wrench in the cogs, but anyone ever think Barney just scraped NOS sticker off and replaced it with an O2 sticker?? he KNEW all the military stuff, right??? i've known many racer types who intentionally try to mislead the competition...

every racer cheats or loses (that's the history part).

just speculating, sorry...