Frame/body leveling quandry, input needed...

[MercMan1951]

Hi all,

I am in the process of fitting the body of the Merc to the Lincoln frame/floorpan. All is going pretty well so far. I have the front lower cowl areas welded together, effectively planting the Merc tub to the Lincoln floor in the front. I have some temporary supports welded into the trunk area securing the body to it, to see how it sits. I can adjust them if need be. It's even side to side, both in front and back. The front is an even height side to side.

The ass end is another story.

When I was cutting the body of the Lincoln off, I took a bunch of measurements as a baseline, and to get an idea of the Lincoln's factory quality control/sagging parts after 120,000 miles and 17 years of (ab)use. I noticed that the passenger side rear frame rail was about 1/2 inch to 3/4 of an inch HIGHER than the right side, sitting on level ground. (The car itself when it was completely assembled looked to sit fine.) All the tires are the same brand and size, and have the same amount of air pressure.

The front right corner of the car had about 3/4 of an inch more SHIMS under the core support than the driver's side. Nice quality control. Basically it's as if the two sides of the frame were welded about 1/2-3/4 of and inch off. The passenger side being higher.

I figured I would just do as the factory did when trying to align the parts, and use more shims on the passenger side.

But I thought about another solution, since I essentially have complete control over how the body will sit, I can raise it and weld it wherever I desire. My question to you all is, knowing this, should I weld the body on so it "looks" level, or should I weld the body on numerically level, where it is even from side to side, front to back but not neccesarily actually level to the eye or with a level stick? Knowing the frame is out of whack, if I weld it on at a numerically correct place, I run the risk of it sitting crooked once assembled, because the frame is out of alignment, correct? If I weld the body on where it is level, (with an eye and a real level) knowing full well that the body sits up 3/4 of and inch higher on the passenger side in relation to the frame, will this affect anything? I guess I'm going more for asthetics than anything else. I'm worried about the car tracking weird or looking like it's going down the road crooked, (we've all seen cars going down the road that look like they took a hard hit in the front and were driving sideways.) Anyone have any ideas? Is a 1/2 inch really going to make a whole lot of difference? Feder? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Tinbender]

I'd want to be sure the frame is correct before going any further. It sounds like old damage to me. Even a ford should be closer than that http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif If you have a twist in the frame it should be corrected first. (I tend to be a little anal about these things... spent too many years workin on a frame rack I guess)

[Greazer]

If the factory screw up is something you think you can fix (even in the future), then my vote is for sticking with numerical correctness.

If you think you're better off living with the shims, then just eyeball that sucker and roll. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[MercMan1951]

Tinbender,

I have experience on a rack as well, and this car shows no signs of ever being hit. My dad works at Wixom assembly (the plant that makes Lincolns) and from the stories he's told me, I am not surprised they had to use a thick stack of shims to get things to line up. Quality sure was not job one in 1987...

I have no means to get the car on a rack and start twisting the frame at this point, so my only option is to weld it right, or weld it "level" to the eye...

[El Caballo]

Lawrence of Arabia

[MercMan1951]

Lawrence of Arabia? What? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[El Caballo]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course it hurts...The trick is not "minding" that it hurts.

[/ QUOTE ]

A scene from Lawrence of Arabia while he was still in Cairo as a cartographer.

[Greazer]

He's referring to my signature (quote). Yes, you're right. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Lawerence of Arabia. I thought it might be a little obscure.

[MercMan1951]

Gotcha. Sorry, little off tonight- http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[El Caballo]

I love it when he starts that Vincent...

[Paul]

weld the thing in there square and flat.

if it leans one way tell her she's gunna have to gain some weight and if it leans the other to her to shed a few.

Paul

[Tinbender]

How did you measure it, merc ? Did you measure the suspension to the frame? I'd just want to be sure of the frame before I welded it together. How did the car drive before you cut the body off?

[19Fordy]

Congrats on a job well done. That's a lot of work. I also have a 51 and noticed that there were spacers between the original frame and the floor and also under the A-pillar and also at the rear of the car. Since you can't straightn the frame at this point, I would suggest putting the doors on and making sure they fit properly as you visually make sure the body sits on the frame so it looks correct, is level, and also has the same measurementsfrom the level floor of your garage all the way around the car.I am not an expert on this stuff, but I am sure you will get it to "sit rite". But be sure and put those doors back on before you find out the body is twisted. Keep us posted. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[RileyRacing]

Have a couple of Pabst's, then weld it. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The night school autobody classes will be starting up soon. I can get a trailer and we'll drag it up and straighten it, if ya want...

or, like has been said, do what ya gotta to get it right. But I know you, and how anal you can be... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Jay

[MercMan1951]

Tinbender,

I drove the car back and forth to work once, and had it up to 80 on the freeway and it drove fine. Didn't pull or shimmy or anything (which was suprising given the overall look and condidtion of the car).

I checked the floor of the garage in many places, and found it to be almost perfectly level, a good baseline. I have been measuring the frame height off the garage floor. It's close, but the right side definately sits heigher on one side in the rear.

I have a level on the body at this point, and it is currently perfect, the little bubble is centered between the lines at both ends of the body.

I dropped plumb bobs off the quarters, to be able to measure the distance the wheels sit side to side under the body. I am fairly certian that the body is physically "square" on the chassis, but if you look at the trunk floor of the Lincoln, and compare it side to side with the rear of the Mercury tailpan, the Lincoln frame is up a little on the passenger side. At this point it's tacked in "level" to the eye.

I think the driver's side spring may be a little on the saggy side as well, contributing to the problem. The seat frame was broken and re-welded together at some point, and the steering column was junk. This leads me to believe that a previous owner was VERY overweight, breaking the seat frame and hoisting himself (or herself) into the car using the steering wheel. I plan to bag the ass end at some point, so i guess all of this could be a moot point, I could use the bags to level the car out side to side. I was just looking for opinions...thanks for your interest!

[MercMan1951]

19Fordy, Thanks for the encouragement...when I look at this mess I've made and then hear the positive comments it really keeps me going.

People who have never done this stuff (or would never do this stuff) tend to just stare in disbelief. "How do you know what you're doing?!"..."You cut the body off a car and are putting a different one on?!"

I guess I am on a quest to not only build something that suits me, but to prove to the dis-believers that I can do this... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[MercMan1951]

Jay,

I really wouldn't want to go thru the trouble of hauling this thing anywhere, let alone back to Auto!

I guess I'll just be my anal self, and deal with the fact that my body wouldn't go on perfectly, and hope nobody notices... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Greazer]

Right on MercMan1951!

Stickin' it to all the squares!

[Tinbender]

I'd measure up from the diff housing to the frame. If its in the suspension, it'd be easy to fix now.
Cool way to build a car. I like doner cars.

[MercMan1951]

Yeah, doners are cool...I liked cutting it all up, too... I sold some of the parts to guys with Lincolns, and one of them came over...the guy that I made take all 4 doors 'cause he wanted all the "rubber" off them...you should have seen the look on his face when he came over to get his parts, and saw what was left of the Town Car, all cut to pieces...I thought he was going to have a heart attack. He looked at me like I had done some sacreligious thing to one of "his" cars...muahahahahah!

[FEDER]

Mercman I dont think I would so much worry about a 1/2" IF its just a hieght issue from side to side.If the factory didnt why should you.My own opinion a good eyball and measuring from center wheel to wheelwells with the bodywieght on the chassis will suffice. I tore apart a 70 Caddy for the front clip and it was the same.Pass side was shimmed from the cowl on through the first bodybiscut. I didnt notice any replaced parts it was done at the factory.
I think if you tried to make everything numerically perfect on the chassis you would find the body would be out side to side.The old Mercs werent perfect either. One thing I would do thuogh is.
Create a centerline. measure between the front and rear wheels. Find the center and mark it.I use masking tape and mark on that. Then use a chalkline and snap the line so it extends 2' in front and rear of the car.Then take a plumb bob and transfer the line to the c/l of the most fwd and rear crossmember and centerpunch it.These punchmarks will be for future reference. Now you need to establish a perpendicular line, at midpoint between the front and rear axle.To do this choose a midpoint make a mark.Use a 2' framing square and run a 90 deg line off your centerline you have on the floor. Project this line out 2' again beyond the body on both sides. NOW you have both C/l and P/L created from your true chassis C/L.Now using that 2' square you can measure from your P/L to the fwd end of your rearend housing to see if it is straight.Or you can do it by using a plumbob from ouside c/l axle then measure from axle line to P/L they should be the same side to side..Repeat the same for the front.I think you get the idea.By doing this it will tell you if your car will track straight or not and if in fact the car was damaged before. This is best done with the wheels off and setting on 4 jackstands 2 under the spring perches at rear and 2 under the front balljoints at front.
Im sure you will get plenty of other input so use all the best.You have my ph# feel free to call.--Feder

[FEDER]

Shit there was only 2 posts when I started typing.im slooooooooow--Feder

[mikes51]

I'd say you are going the right way. In the future, everytime you go to get in your car, you're going to appreciate how level the body sits relative to the ground.
You're not going to open the trunk everytime and look at that little glitch on the trunk floor alignment.


I agree also with 19fordy, you don't want to complicate the job of hanging the doors and installing that big backlite by adjusting the squareness of the body before the doors are in.


It's that age old quandry, does one do the job absolutely perfect? or does one get the job done in a reasonable amount of time.

[MercMan1951]

Feder!...I was hoping you'd see this...looks like I need to go to the hardware store for a framing square- http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

As always, thanks for your input. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

For those of you that don't know, FEDER is one of the
Merc-body-to-alternate-chassis swapping gods here on the HAMB...always a great wealth of knowledge!

[MercMan1951]

Mikes,

After I get it to where the floor doesn't flex when I let the body off the jig, I'll put the doors on...trust me, that has been weighing on my mind heavily (no pun intended). I think I braced it well enough before I ever started cutting it up, if you look in the pics on my website, I welded in door cross tubes and cross bars across the width of the body to keep the body where it was when it came off the original frame. The doors sagged when on the original frame, and I'm hoping with the rebuilt rockers and the new floor that I corrected that. The hinges seemed a little on the sloppy side too, so I may have to re-bush them as well. If not, oh well, it was like that when I started, so I'll have to tweak it after all.

I guess I'm going for a reasonable amount of time, since my goal is to have this thing moving under it's own power by June or July...and I don't have easy access to a frame rack...or the desire to mess with the frame...

And also, the rear window is still in. I haven't removed it at this point. Only the side glass...

[FEDER]

Well sounds like thingS are going well! When you get done believe Me only you will know where the (tweaks) are.Thanks for the kudos but a God Im not Im always learnin too, everyday day right here on the HAMB. --Feder

[side_valve]

My favoite part? Vern Tardel's gen cover!

[MercMan1951]

Hmm. Wrong post??? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[mikes51]

I adjusted and re-pin'ed my drivers side door. When you get to that step look me up for some tips.

[Paul]

ok,

you say you are measuring off the concrete floor to establish level?

is it a super-flat?

you know, a slab poured to EXACTING tolerances?

what if say the concrete is oh, maybe 3/8" out of level in ten feet and the frame is 3/8" out of level corner to corner and in reality both are within tolerance?

but coincidentally they add up to give you an exaggerated measurement?

if it were me I would make sure I had a true baseline to work off of.

I would verify the accuracy of my measuring tools first

and the surface next.

It takes about two minutes to check a level and not much more to check the slab.

Paul

[MercMan1951]

60's Style:
I have a laser level and that is my next step...I'll establish some baselines to see how far out the floor is, then take some more measurements, in addition to what Feder and the other guys said.

I am pretty sure it's the frame that's out of whack, because I have checked it 3 times in varying places between the garage and my driveway and each time it's the same side off the same amount. Plus, my level won't lie. I KNOW I have the body in the right place...the chassis is another story, and that's what has me concerned. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I realize concrete can't be perfectly level, but when working out of a 2 1/2 car garage, with no means to build a flat table, and no access to a frame jig or frame rack, you have to work with what you've got, I guess... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Rooster]

I WOULDN'T weld it up by the numbers as you've described them.
After Re-reading your original post and assuming that your laser level checks out(my floor's off 5/16" on one side of where my frame project sits in the 117"wb distance, and it's virtually unnoticable) it sounds like it's either only Off at ONE point or sagging on One corner.
You yourself have claimed personal knowledge of repair work to have determined there's never been a collision repair.

You've ALSO described damage I've experienced on several of MY own cars from FAT-ASS previous owners...!
I currently own one which has a corner leaning worse every year due to poorly wearing springs. At Some point Very Soon I'm goin to be forced to replace these or risk twisting the body. I've already jacked the spring twice, now I gotta replace it.

I would Vote AGAINST Any poor advice to weld a body CROOKEDLY onto a possibly Straight frame, thereby making it LOOK straight right now, while the frame will continue to be OFF . Try measuring the distance from frame to axle/ctrl. arm, at ea. corner. That'll tell ya if the springs are sittin alright. If that's straight and yer still bent at the rear end, measure points within to see if there's some point where it IS straight side to side, regardless of level side to side. Unless I misunderstood something, I'd weld it appropriate distances to body/frame points wherever they match, and leave the rest unwelded till fixable. I've welded frames to heavywall tubing jackstands before and use 2--3/4" exp. bolts to hold the bottom plate to the garage floor. Say if it's straight on one rail, weld it @ rear and again just behind the rear wheel. Other side which is bent down, welded at the last part which is equal distant as other side. Then use a floorjack on the low end to bend the bent down rail upwards. I wouldn't worry too much about level side to side, go with "same" measurements front to rear then adjust your worn old springs...

Whatever happened to mfgr's having ride height offset higher on the PS to allow for road crowns?????????

[MercMan1951]

Thanks for all the input Rooster. I'm going to try a combination of the stuff people have suggested (especially the centerline and spring measuments in relation to the rear axle), and then go from there. I don't think it'll be screwed up too bad if I have spent this much time thinking about it! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[lakesmod]

El Caballo
The bike that he was riding on when he was killed was a Brough Superior,model SS100,registration# GW2275.
Fred