HEIDT's Mustang II subframe help...

[Hot Rod To Hell]

Hey guys... I have the Heidts subframe, with coil overs and tubular control arms, and I have a problem... Fat Hack told me to post and let you guys have fun with it! Here's the dilly...

My lower A arms are bent... in 2 planes... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gifIf you look at it from the front, it is not a straight line, but a very subtle "V", bent right at the shock mount. If you look at it from the ball joint, the shock bolt is also bent into a subtle "V", and the bushing ends of the control arm are sloped toward the inside to match.

My questions are:
1: Why did they bend??? I DO NOT have coil bind, it DOES NOT bottom out...
2: Should I bend them back straight and weld in some braces, or replace them?
3: If I replace them, should I go through HEIDT's, or does someone else make a control arm that will fit their subframe?

Fat Hack said I'd get some interesting responses, so let's hear it!
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Machinos]

Are you sure they aren't supposed to be like that? Suspension geometry is witchcraft as far as I'm concerned.

[JSM56]

would it be possible to post pics just so we can see exactly what is going on under there?

[ELpolacko]

Are these by chance stainless arms?

I have had a lot of problems with Heidt's products lately. I just shot a roll of film on a severly busted crossmember that was installed by a licenced Heidts dealer in the Chicago area. The truck has 27,000 miles on it. As soon as I have the pictures back I will scan and post them for all to see. I also have some recomendations for solutions to these probelms.

I had a set of Heidts steel tubular control arms on a 1950 Oldsmobile coupe that bent with less than 100 miles on them. After a "toe to toe" argument with Gary Heidts on the phone, I was told it was my fault. Every excuse in the book was given from the shocks were bottoming out to coil bind. My rebutal was it is expected that the suspention will bottom out every once in a while and the components should be able to withstand the impact. No dice. Well I cut them apart and found they used 1" X .110 SEAMED TUBING !!! No wonder they gave up so easy. I have my doubts if they would hold up on the front of a lightweight A over time.

I spoke with Frank Streff the other day about his SoCal push truck, he probably doesn't want me passing this on but His Walton Chassised F100 uses Heidts stainless arms. He said they bent up just like you described with very low miles on them. He has since "upgraded" to those butt ugly arms they offer and hasn't had any more problems. The best they could figure is that they use a low grade stainless like 304 to make it easier to polish.

I would contact Heidts for replacement arms. I would also demand they pay for everything including your labor. Take pictures and send them in to prove your point. I am sure you are going to get responses like, "you overloaded them," or "your shocks are bottoming out" or my personal favorite, "those parts are for show cars, you are not expected to drive those on the street." Yes I did get that response out of them concerning a Heidts Superide that would not track correctly.

You can call me at my shop if you want to discuss this further,

Steve Szymanski
Industrial Chassis Inc
602-278-6800

I should be there today from 9:00am to Noon MST

[48bill]

Over the past year or so there have been a number of negative posts about Heidt"s Mustang II kits and related parts. I'm planning to put an independent front end under my 48 F-1 with a 425 ci Caddy as I've had enough fun with a dropped straight axle. Has anyone had any experience with the Progressive Automotive stuff?

Any recommendations on road tested independent kits?

Thanks.

Bill

[Unkl Ian]

[ QUOTE ]
"those parts are for show cars, you are not expected to drive those on the street."

[/ QUOTE ]



They should put that SHIT in their ads for everyone to see.
"Our overpriced Shit is for Posing use only.Please be careful pushing your car on and off the trailer."

In BIG letters,beside the Fish.

[Hackerbilt]

48 Bill....phone the number in El Polacko's post. Industrial Chassis builds REAL truck suspensions using real truck parts. NOT compact car stuff.

Bill

[choprods]

tubular A arms are for atv's...........[and posers.] http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[mikes51]

[ QUOTE ]

Fat Hack said I'd get some interesting responses, so let's hear it!
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Fat Hack was probably recalling a huge thread a while back.
As I recall it was about a tubular lower a-arm (strutless) design that caused the main cross member to crack. Most agreed the strength of the entire system was compromised because the wide a-arm was mounted to a very narrow crossmember.

[Machinos]

Wow... not that I was ever going to buy anything from Heidt's anyway seeing as I don't have $3,000 to spend on suspension no one but me will ever see anyway. But that's goddamn ridiculous. Tech support tells you "Show cars only, it's your own fault!", what a load of shit.

If I were going to buy a new IFS, I'd get Fatman stuff. When I was looking into it a year or so ago I talked to them on the phone and they were extremely helpful, and needless to say they're much more reasonably priced.

[Fat Hack]

Yeah, I was telling HRTH about that old thread on Heidt's junk...

That "It's show car stuff...you're not supposed to DRIVE it!" quote says it all!!

Should be their new slogan, as someone else suggested! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Unkl Ian]

"Just because it has wheels,and a motor,and cost alot of money,doesn't mean you can actually drive it."
"Any use that might involve getting your car wet,or dirty,will void any warranty." http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif


Has anyone done a side by side comparison of Heidt's and Fatman's MII suspension?
Just curious how different they are.

Is there an aftermarket manufacturer,besides Industrial Chassis,
that mounts the lower arms in double shear?

Does G.H. know the meaning of "double shear"?

[286merc]

I wonder if GH is going to go the fish route again?
Thats an inside joke, you will have to find the old threads from last year.

[Hot Rod To Hell]

I'll be under the car tomorrow guys... I'll try to shoot some pics. Thanks for the input so far though. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[cosmo]

Doesn't surprise ME any.
Yup, I'm the author of that old thread. Still have the pics, let me see...yup, there they are...

Cosmo

[cosmo]

Forgot to mention:
Make sure that short bastard pays up. He's slimier than a sewer rat, but he DOES understand the power of numbers.
If you want me to call him, I will, just to go over old times, if ya know what I mean http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Give me a ring on 312 310 6993, and I'll give Gary a call ASAP.
Cosmo.
P.S. Never mention the term "engineering", he doesn't know that one...nor the term "test", or "durability", ah, shit, you get the idea...
P.P.S. The old thread is no longer available, I checked...

[ELpolacko]

BTTT


Cosmo, do you still have all of the pictures?

Do you have some documentation as to what happened and the resolution. I would like to compile this stuff for future use.

I did send you a PM

[Machinos]

I was flipping through an R&C issue last night and came across one of their two-page ads. It says the control arms are made from "3/16 wall tubing". I'm not great at math but I'm pretty sure .110 inch is a whole lot less than 3/16 inch. Hmmm...

[Hot Rod To Hell]

Here are some pics guys... sorry they're crappy, it's kind of an awkward spot to photograph! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

This one kinda shows the bend of the shock bolt alignment...
http:\\inkandsteel.com/HAMB/PICT0008.JPG

This one shows the "twist" of the arm
http:\\inkandsteel.com/HAMB/PICT0007.JPG

And this one shows the bend where the shock bolts on...
http:\\inkandsteel.com/HAMB/PICT0012.JPG

[jerry]

i sure hope that you ain't driving that thing like that!

i'd use stock style arms with a strut rod before i'd trust that shit!



jerry

[Hot Rod To Hell]

I was drivin it! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I just noticed it while I was under there unhooking stuff to yank the motor!

[Machinos]

Holy crap, talk about FLIMSY.

[Ayers Garage]

I have a Fatman MII on my car with Fatman tubular arms. The crossmember is way wider and doesn't need to use this spacer tube to make up the gap. My crossmember is as wide as the arms are. No problems ever, lots of miles, plenty of bottoming out.

I'm not an engineer like the other guy on here who builds them, but it seems like that tube deal would be weaker. I'd like to see his opinion on this.

[Hot Rod To Hell]

You cant really see it in tha picture there, but there is a pretty good sized (and fairly thick) gussset in the inside corner there, but I agree, your setup definitely sounds stronger!

[flt-blk]

Hillbilly,
What you circled is one of the problems. There is a gusset on the back side, but not one on the top. The existing gusset will help support side loads, but not any forces from braking or rotation.
No support can lead to fatigue and eventually bending or failure.

The pictures of the bent tubular arm are scary, good thing you found it when you did.

[ELpolacko]

Guys, the problem you are nitpicking here is a problem in Cosmos case and some of the cases I am dealing with here.

Quite honestly that is not the problem here as the spacer and gusset seem to be aligned properly as it was when new. What is the problem and one that seems to be ignored is the control arm FAILED! It is obvious that the control arm was totaly incapable of dealing with the load presented by the coil over. Can you provide specs to the vehicle this is under, what is it, what engine and what type of heads, exhaust and radiator. As in what are they made of iron or aluminum. I want to calculate the sprung weight. I also would like to know what type (brand) shocks you have and what spring rate also.

Hotrod to Hell, please call me or PM me your phone number.

Cosmo, I still haven't heard back from you.

[Hot Rod To Hell]

Thw car is a 62 Chevy II. It's an SBC with aluminum heads and intake, aluminum radiator and waterpump, Glass front clip. I have QA1 adjustable shocks (I had carerras originally, but this is a street racer, so I wanted more tuning ability) There is 1450lbs on the front wheels, and I originally had 500lb springs, but after talking to the tech at QA1 I went to 365lb springs (a lighter spring compressed more has more stored energy for better weight transfer). Like I said, I KNOW the springs are not binding, and I have never noticed the shocks bottom out, but as stated earlier, if they did, isn't that sort of to be expected on a street car???

[Unkl Ian]

If there is any chance something is going to bottom out,
it needs tapered rubber bumpers to absorb some of the impact.

The factories use them on their lower a-arms,
but the fashion conscious aftermarket leaves them off for the sake of appearance.

There are round bumpers available,in different heights and shapes,
that will fit over the rod on almost any coil over shock.

Ideally the a-arms would bottom out before the shocks.

[ELpolacko]

Good information

It sounds like you do put hard miles on this car. The QA1 shocks are supposed to be pretty darned good. I haven't had any experience with them but I imagine there is some sort of bottom out washer or rubber cone on the shaft, right?

Regardless the control arm failed to hold up.

Heidts will argue that you bottomed it out, repeatedly. Most likely they will not honor any sort of warranty.

Consequently on the 50 Olds I built the arms bent to a lesser degree than yours. I used Aldan coil overs on it with the urethane bushing end. I scrapped the spacers that came with the kit and machined my own that slipped over the protrusions on the control arm and they fish mouthed around the contol arm. Mostly for looks, I wish I had a better picture available.

[Hot Rod To Hell]

Ok, so everybody has their ideas of WHY the control arms failed (the one in the pics is MUCH worse than the other side), and everybody has said "Man, what a shitty design!", but no one has given me their opinions on the best repair option! Lik in my original post, Should I repair or replace??? and if I replace, does anyone else make arms that would fit a Heidt's frame???

[metalshapes]

Redesign and replace.
Putting the full load of the suspension in the middle of a unsupported tube like that is a piss poor way of doing it.
By the time you have got it strong enough to take the load, it will be way heavyer than its got a right to be.

[Unkl Ian]

I don't think repair is an option.

My first choice would be to convert to a stock style lower arm,
with a strut running forwards to the frame.
Then mount the coil over on the stock type arm.
It wouldn't be as "pretty",but it would be less likely to leave you stranded,or worse. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[cosmo]

Yup, the idea of using a stock arm, with strut will work very well. This is what I had in my first rod with M-II, and it took a beating for over 20,000 miles before I sold the car.
Basically put, it seems that anything the aftermarket has put out for use has not been extensively tested, and in some cases, not tested at all. If I were to do any early car again, I would utilise a suitable subframe and to hell with looks (fancy-schmancy tubular shit that breaks just doesn't cut it with me, I drive 'em). And, yes, I've done it both ways, so can speak from experience.
ElPolako - I just got your message. The above (312-310-6993) IS my number, but I left you a VM just in case.
Further, I found the print out of the previous postings on this subject, both mine of 11-09-02(titled: "Catastrophic failure, major manuf. UPDATE!!!!! PICS!!!!"), and one by Elpolako of 11-26-02 (titled "Proof positive, bad design").
I have all the photos I took of my 'problem', yet none appear on the printout due to the timing. However, ALL the pics are on the printout from Elpolako.
If someone needs/wants these, let me know at the above number.
I'm in contact with Elpolako now....

[Hackerbilt]

What bugs me the most is that ANYONE can see that such a control arm isn't going to take the beating of regular street driving. Look at the spread between the tubes...how can a single bolt absorb all the weight without twisting and eventually failing?
How could such a small cross section tube not bend with that weight load combined with regular impact?
The better fabricators here wouldn't consider building such a setup without addressing the obvious potential problems...WHY does HEIDT's build it?
Is he that STUPID or is it just greed?
A fish...I'm sure I'd but my faith in someone just because they display a fucking FISH! People amaze me sometimes... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

One piece arms can be built and can be reliable, you just need to address the problems...not ignore them! This isn't rocket science...COMMON SENSE could give you a better arm than that!

One of these days something like that is gonna completely fail...people will die, and RODDERS will suffer the consequences in a safety crackdown. ALL RODDERS!

Something NEEDS to be done about this bullshit.

Bill

[cosmo]

Something needs be done all right.
When mine went bad, I contacted the NHTSA and filled out the appropriate forms. This HRTH should do promptly.
Spread the word to all. Most won't listen due to an attitude of "It's worked this long" and misplaced pride in worksmanship.
During my conversation with Elpolako, he mentioned that Gary was going to call me about my earlier comment. Well, he hasn't yet, and I don't suspect he will. He also called my car a P.O.S., yet he repaired it at his cost. Too, one of the repairmen (Gary doesn't actually do this) called my car the best riding street rod he has ever driven. This from the only guy at the shop to actually DRIVE my car. Guess when you're busy with fish, ride and handling don't matter much. Oh, it's true that the body doesn't look like much, but it hasn't been touched since it rolled off the Detroit assembly line in '46. However, the car racked up more than 20,000 miles in just two years, so something must have been done right.
Now when I picked up my suspension kit from Heidt's factory, I saw NOT ONE hot rod in the car park. Now, it WAS June, and the sun was shining, so conditions may not have been perfect, yet some of us WILL drive during the imperfect conditions such as occur during the typical Illinois summer. But not those, maybe, who have Heidt's components on their cars.
Anyway, back to waiting for a phone call.....
Cosmo

[SatinBlack58]

Wow, ust got a chance to read this one. I must say I never imagined that there would be such a problem with such an expensive unit. I couldnt afford that when I built my panel. I got a cross member kit from Street rod engineering in AZ, put it in myself(My first one). Picked up a stock Mustang II a arms and rack, replaced the ball joints and bushings, purchased the speedway 11" rotor kit and springs, installed it and have never had a problem. If I remember right it was approx a $1000 to complete. Satin

[Hot Rod To Hell]

The reason I went with the tubular arm in the first place was to save weight... this IS a "high performance" vehicle... I just didn't expect the parts to suck!!! I was REALLY pleased with the heidts setup before now! Sure it was expensive, but it went together really well, and SEEMED to be working ok! So you guys think if I call and bitch enough I can get it fixed, or get new arms or something??? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[metalshapes]

My personal opinion, I would not want it on my car...
What is the best he could possibly do for you?
Replace the bent parts for soon to be bent parts.

[Hot Rod To Hell]

Here is the exact setup I have as far as shocks and springs. http://www.halshocks.com/shocks/mustang2_coiloverconv.html
I have the MS1365 kit. No, there is no Bump Stop on the shock, which in my mind means I definitely would've FELT if it ever bottomed out, which I don't believe it has.

[John Copeland]

48 Bill,
Call Bob Shetrone at Progressive Automotive, (740) 862-4696. Bob has a particular interest in pick-ups and they make the parts to fit your application, I feel confident that you will be satisfied with their products. Everybody has an occasional problem, the folks at Progressive can be held accountable for any issues that may be less then perfect. Like I said in a post yesterday, Progressive was the first to use Pinto/Mustang II front ends on their chassis in such a way that they work as advertised. I assure you that front end geometry is not a mystery to the great team at Progressive.

Shoe

[Phil1934]

I alsways thought the MII was picked because it was a superior design. I saw an article that said some guy was going to make Model A kits with Pinto running gear and took orders for 10,000 cars and purchased the MII front ends, then declared bankruptcy. This is what put the front end in the hands of the suspension companies. Kind of like Gear Vendors got started buying 5000 overdrives from AMC after their collapse. Sort of makes you question the suitability, doesn't it?

[hatch]

When MII factory crossmembers started getting replaced with custom pieces, it seems like all the so called "engineering" was just quick afterthought....(very quick).

Getting someone to replace their junk with more junk is a waste of time. Change direction and stir up some shit for em. As much shit as you can.

It's like getting a shit meal at any one of the chain restaurants...they "reward" you with MORE SHITTY FOOD!!!!...wow....thanks http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[old beet]

Got over 100K miles on my F-1 with stock Must ll, running a big block ford and small 14s in front. Works for me.....OLDBEET

[hatch]

If it was my car, here is what I would do. I would file a lawsuit in small claims court. Cheap to file and no lawyers involved. I think the maximum is 3000 you can sue for. Then take a pile of pics in 8x10 color...and be READY...(estimates from competant frame shops and established hotrod builders) I'm not sure where you should file..(home base or their turf), but it could be easily found out.

[John Copeland]

I think you can still buy a replacement cross member for a Mustang II from Ford. But by the time you strip all of the garbage off of it that you don't need, you end up with a flimzy piece of stamped sheet metal. I've seen them used many times with success and I've seen them used and folks have had serious problems. There is not a lot of metal to weld to as with a custom cross member. I've had a Progressive unit in my 40 Ford since 1989 and have never had a problem. I can't speak for anyone else's engineering expertise, but Progressive replacated Ford's design dimensionally, and in doing so eliminated "bump steer", which others were having a difficult time with. The only thing dimensionally different would be the Ackerman angle, which is relative to wheelbase. Unless your car has the identical wheel base as a Mustang II, you have to ignor this issue which is not a huge factor in handling characteristics/drivability. It's important to have a good alignment shop that can also work out the bugs for you as more often then not, the Mustang II data will not work. Wheels are as equally important, Mustang II front ends are sensitive to big positive or negative off-sets, if I can remember correctly, the Mustang II used a 5" wide wheel with a neutral off-set. If you can install one of these front ends in an unaltered state, using Ford dimensions, I'd say most installations will work. Some of the nightnmares I've seen, are more commonly associate with narrowed racks, crossmenbers, etc. I know the Mustang II folks don't want to talk about using a front clip, but in non-Ford applications it works pretty good, given that it is installed properly. GM utilized a lot of engineering power developing a front clip for a Camaro and Nova, and they work well in a Hot Rod if they are installed properly. Just my thoughts.

Shoe

[Hot Rod To Hell]

Hey guys... Just got an Email from Gary Heidt. Hope he doesn't mind me sharing with everyone, but here goes!
[ QUOTE ]
Steve, I do not understand why you did not call us with your bent arm problem. We would have replaced them in a minute for you, free of charge. I know that is not what everyone else is saying that we do, that we do not honor any warranty, etc., but is really funny how the truth and the street talk are not always the same. I do know also, that the springs that QA1 sent you are wayyyyyyy tooooooooo soft. If you had stock arms on the car with those springs, you would just have broken the shocks, or tore the bottoms out of the stock arms from bottoming out all the time. There is no spring, shock, control arm package that is designed to bottom out constantly and survive. Please call me at the shop, 1-800-841-8188 so we can get you back on the road. Thank you very much for your interest in trying to find a genuine solution to this problem, as I am genuinely interested in helping you. Gary Heidt

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to say I was quite surprised, and he doesn't sound NEARLY as disagreeable as you guys let on! I thought the guy(s) I talked to when building the car were really helpful, so I was surprised to hear all the bad stuff! I thought maybe I just caught them on a good day! This Email made me VERY HAPPY! Thanks for all of your input guys, and thank you GARY HEIDT! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Unkl Ian]

[ QUOTE ]
... as I am genuinely interested in helping you. Gary Heidt

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be interesting to compare the old arms,and the replacements,on a bathroom scale.

[Ryan]

Didn't Gary come through the first time there was a problem on the HAMB too? Let's recognize the problems for what they are worth and appreciate Gary's assistance.

I'm no engineer and can't make a claim to the quality of any manufacturer's tubular control arms, but I am really curious to know if any other folks are having this problem with thier tubular control arms - Heidt's or not.

[Phil1934]

http://hotrodders.com/showthread.php?s=8709d5b685db184df0a9078bf6971441& threadid=25753&highlight=Mustang+II
http://www.hotrodders.com/t18601.html

[Hot Rod To Hell]

Well IF (not sayin he is, just IF) Gary's just tryin to cover his butt, for "damage control" as you call it on my car, and the one on here in the past, maybe he'll do any future problems too. After a while of replacing parts for free it could start to get expensive, so maybe he'd try to engineer a better product for PROFIT control!!! Regardless of his motives, It'll be made right with me, and things can only get better for us (hot rodders) He'll stand behind his product completely, and/or build a better product. Either way we win, right??? And as far as the springs go, he supplied the kit with 500lb springs, and I changed to 365lb springs (on the advice of the tech from QA1). I'm gonna call Gary sometime next week (Let him enjoy the Holidays) and we'll talk tech then (try to figure out what happened and how to prevent it), and I'll keep a much closer eye on the next set!

[Andy]

Really hope all works out for you. IMHO I can't see that set up ever being something that is safe. It needs a strap accross under the shock mount and then it needs reinforced arms with a deep section and it needs bump stops that don't bend the arms,etc.Weigh the stock arms and compare them to the tubuler ones. Ford did not put an ouce of metal in them that was not required. And that was for a little car!! I would put a straight axle under it or a stock MII crosmember and arms.

[Unkl Ian]

Phil posted some very interesting links.
Here is another:
Modified crossmember. (http://www.clubfte.com/users/jniolon/mustangIIinstall/mustanginstall.html)

[Hackerbilt]

What I'm saying is...you REALLY should have given him a call FIRST, because no matter what he does now, it LOOKS like he's doing Damage Control!

You tossed the springs he supplied you with? I didn't realize that!
That changes things just a little doesn't it?
YOU have been a bad boy.
You did at least ASK Heidts if you could make the change or if such a change required modifications or replacement control arms, didn't you?

You didn't...did you!?!?

Why do I suddenly feel like I'm at a lynching? sigh......

Bill

[Tman]

I am glad you finally talked to gary about it. And I am not surprised he was willing to help.

And Ryan has a valid point here. Our shop happens to sell Heidts front ends. Lots of them. Under cars that get driven. The crew at Heidts has always been professional and heplful with all of their product. Contrary to the "bandwagons" slamming of the front ends here, they work.
We have sold scores of them over the years with very few serious problems. Nothing like the bent control arms shown here or Cosmos crossmember. Have you guys ever thought of the fact that Heidts happens to be the industry leader in suspensions and that has more front ends out there than all the others combined? That alone raises the odds for issues such as this. I am not saying this to fuel the fire, just to try and add some counterpoint to the mud slinging going on. I am all for putting the thumbscrews to a company producing faulty stuff but I fear the pack mentality here has gotten the best of meny.

At least ElP looked towards a cause/effect to try and get to the bottom of this with a little tact. My .02.

[metalshapes]

At least for me, bandwagon mentality has nothing to do with it...
If that A arm looks good to a Street Rodder, so be it.
I prefer the astetics you can get when form follows function.
With this design bending loads will be high and if it is made to be strong enough it will be heavy.
I have never worked on a Heidt so I dont know how heavy, but I can safely guess it will be a lot more than some other cars I have worked on.
One that comes to mind was a Lola ( which was also a much lighter car ) where the A arm tubes were thin enough to fish mouth with tin snips. And that car was designed to hop kerbs and rumble strips at full cornering speeds.

[Hot Rod To Hell]

Hey guys. I called Gary today... He was very friendly, very polite, and seemed more than happy to help me figure out why my arms bent. He did tell me that they have since changed to a larger diameter, heavier wall tubing which makes a WAY stronger finished product. He put a set in the mail to me, no charge. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif If you guys have had bad experiences with him before, I'm sorry; I don't see where I would have any justification whatsoever to talk poorly of him! He seemed to be a genuinely nice guy to me. I will definitely continue to do business with him. Thanks to EVERYONE for the input though, it's always best to hear ALL sides of the story; right??? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Hot Rod To Hell]

Hey guys. Got my new A arms TODAY!!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif He just shipped 'em out yesterday! He was right... these arms are WAY beefier than the old ones. I don't think I could bend these if I tried!!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Thanks again everyone! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Unkl Ian]

Hopefully he is making all his stuff heavier now.

[Hackerbilt]

AND I hope he's going back thru his records to ship a NEW set of "Beefy Arms"(tm) to EVERYONE that purchased this type setup from Heidts in the past.
THAT would prove the "Fish" isn't just a marketing ploy. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I wish Mr Heidt all the best!
He sells stuff that I don't ever intend to buy, BUT I do realize that he and the others who make up the aftermarket, offer valuable assistance to the time restricted builders, or the guys who just can't build things for themselves.
Lotsa good people in cars they could never have if it wasn't for people like Gary Heidt.

But PLEASE.....INCREASE your safety margins a little will ya?
Those "old" arms are below par in strength AND design.
I don't understand why the Coilover was even set up to load the CENTER of the arm! I would have had it much closer to the ball joint to limit the leverage effect...and a one piece cross bar near the inner bushings, or even near the coilover mounting tabs/tubes themselves would limit twisting forces on the bushings.

Well...regardless...I'm glad he's redesigned the setup to make it safer! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Hmmmm...I WONDER are the "Strut arm eliminator" kits redesigned or do they still have the same layout as before?

Bill