Re: TECH: Dropping axles

[TerryTheToad]

Hey Titus. You sure are good at make someone elses ideas sound like your own. I work with Kelso, and Ive had him do work for me in his shop. In fact, I was there the day he started building that fixture. You had nothing to do with it until it was completed, and he had already tested it. Damn right he was mad when he heard you had done this!! I would be too! He had planned on charging a minimal amount to bend these axles, but you make it public, and give everybody pictures so they can just build thier own. There's a reason he didn't want it posted.... How do you know these axles are going to hold up? I have a few points that Kelso made, and being a mechanical engineer, I agree with him:

How do you know these axles arent just going to break at the drop point?!?!! You're using "old metal", most of the cars these will eventually be going in have larger engines than stock. What happens the first time these are taken out for a drive? Who's to say they won't just snap under the load. Did you take one in and have it magna-fluxed for internal cracks?? I'm sure you didn't. How about bringing it to a place like Twin City Testing to have a shock load test done, this probably wouldn't be a bad idea either. When you account for the weight load your using, the torque factor on the axle during acceleration, and combine that with a bumpy road.... How long are these going to hold up???

All it takes is one yahoo out there to bend up thier own axle, throw it on a car, and be on a cruise. The axle breaks, and they go after you or worse yet Kelso for the damage to thier car, or worse yet the damage to themselves. People have sued for less.

Next time think before you try to steal the credit for someone elses idea!!

TerryTheToad.

[FarmallPete]

Looks like some has some dirty laundry to air..... bad idea... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Nads]

I'm gonna sit back and enjoy this round of the WWF.

[Levis Classic]

First post WOW and hes already hammering - this should be fun!

[Smokin Joe]

Haven't seen an intro of this magnitude since Fecals the Clown.

Smoke 'em if you've got 'em...

[Phil1934]

Can y'all wait until I make myself some popcorn?

[Bass]

Before you all gangbang this fella, you might want to let the accused (titus) respond.

He DOES bring up good points concerning safety...something a lot of you would sacrifice to save a hundred bucks or so.(I'm guilty of this too)

I also would like to hear what the official HAMB metallurgist has to say...if he hasn't already given his opinion.

However, I know that the original dropped axles were dropped by a blacksmith, so I'm assuming that these were also done with heat...and I've never heard an account of one of the originals breaking.

For the record, I have no affiliation with either if these guys. I'd just like for all the facts to come out so we can all come to an intelligent (read: non-ignorant) conclusion. And because the home-made dropped axle seems to be good idea that people here are bound to end up trying.

[flt-blk]

I'm too lazy to go find the post again, but I don't think Titus claimed the whole process as his own idea or work.

There was a detailed discussion on the strength and metalurgy of the drop and cooling process, in the end everyone agreed it was not a strength reducing process so long as it was not quenched.

If soemone decides to take this example and try it themselves, I don't think there is any legal ramification to the original poster. I saw some shit on Monster garage and tried to turn my PT Cruiser into a wood chipper, lost my finger and want to sue Jesse....WTF.
TZ

[Smokin Joe]

I don't care if he's right or not. Breaking down the door and entering with a shotgun isn't the best way to come in.

BTW Bass, the heating and bending of the axles doesn't worry me near as much as doing the same to the steering arms on the spindles to match the drop. That also has been done forever and seems to work safely.

[Bass]

I agree on both counts, Smokin' Joe. He most definitely could have made his point more eloquently.

But I think that sometimes board etiquette needs to be set aside.

The bending of steering arms worries me a bit, too...and I can see your point. I'd still like to hear what 38Chevy454 has to say regarding metallurgy.

[flt-blk]

Alright, I'm not so lazy. I went back and found the post, it starts out as follows.

[ QUOTE ]
"Here are some pics of a jig me and a buddy made to drop axles"

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't sound like Titus is trying to claim full credit to me.

[metalshapes]

If I understand the proces right, Magna-flux will not help you detect internal cracks...
X ray will.

[Darwin]

Any heating of an old Ford axle, forged or not and as long as it is not rapidly quenched, is not going to seriously affect the strength unless it was heat-treated and I'm not aware of any that were. The strength imparted by forging is going to be less affected than that imparted by a controlled quench heat-treatment. If anything a heated axle would be slightly more malleable and less prone to breakage even with it being a bit smaller in cross section at the bend. Old Ford axles are plenty strong to begin with. They held up cars with engines nearly as heavy as modern V8s and although they weren't subjected to the speeds of today they were subjected to constant pounding on the miserable rutted dirt byways of the 20s-40s cushioned only by skinny high-pressure tires. Unless you're planning to smash into foot-deep potholes at 70 then there's not much to worry about. Same goes for steering arms. Never heard of either one breaking but there's always a first time I guess. I have seen Model A axles that were practically pretzled by crash damage and no breakage was visible.

[burndup]

bitch, bitch, bitch. I thought drama week was cancelled?

I think if an idea for a process is SO simple, that its BS to try and keep it to yourself...

Now, if say YEARS of research and a lot of money were spent, thats different, but I commend titus for showing us.

Toad, post an intro, or buzz off.

[Smokin Joe]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd still like to hear what 38Chevy454 has to say regarding metallurgy.


[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, especially as I plan to use a Mor-Drop and heat & bend the 40 spindles, A-Bones and F-1 shock mounts on the 31 coupe. Maybe we should start up another post to get out of the shrapnel that'll be flying in this one soon.

[MattStrube]

Terry, you should probably have introduced yourself before giving someone some shit (That was your first mistatke)
First: If your buddy Kelso didn't want titus posting the tech, then he should talk to him about it and have titus explain to Hambers what went wrong, not use the board for your friend to voice his anger toward titus
Second: You state that Kelso didn't want people copying his idea. Too late for that, so your post is worthless for that one. titus also said that his buddy was charging a minimal fee in one of his other posts (Plus I don't think everyone is going to run out and make their own axels)
C: You voice your concern for the safety issue. Because some guy bends an axel in his garage, Kelso is probably not liable
Lastly: He didn't steel credit, as stated before.
Finally: Where's your intro?

[metalshapes]

I agree with Burndup, maybe it is time to get rid of the personal opinions and guess work...
If we have 1 Titus Drop or a New Drop tested the right way, we will know if we have neat wall art or safe Traditional Hot Rod parts.
The HAMB is probably the only place in the world where enough people would be interested in the outcome to finance such expensive tests.
In other words put up your part of the cash, or shut up.
I have a New Drop ready to go on my roadster, and I am not to worried about it.
But more information never hurts, and to me, is worth some money...

[34Fordtk]

Yeah drama week was cancelled!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[ray]

wow, i'd like to meet this kelso fella, he must be pretty old, having invented dropped axles and all.

it don't take a rocket scientist to drop an axle, this ain't fucking propietary information. kelso should worry about HIS axles breaking.

and being i am one of the ones who asked for the information, thanks titus, maybe he got a little carried away with the credit, but the info is much appreciated.

[Mike]

Ah yes, the elusive "Kelso", inventor of the dropped axle...

Funny, ol' Kelso is so worried about the structural soundness of axles that have been through "his" process, yet it sounds like he is plenty eager to make a buck off of the process.

Hey Toad! Is that you on that computer? Geez, what a waste of machinery!

Get lost Nancy!

[wingnutz]

Kelso isn't the only boy on the block with a torch and bottle jacks. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif When I saw the Titus post I thought of my granfather..., Seems this shit was done on farms all over the U.S. on tractors..! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

So I think Kelso should give credit to my Grandfather for inventing the dropped axle...! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Unkl Ian]

[ QUOTE ]
.... How do you know these axles are going to hold up? I have a few points that Kelso made, and being a mechanical engineer, I agree with him:
How do you know these axles arent just going to break at the drop point?!?!! You're using "old metal", most of the cars these will eventually be going in have larger engines than stock. What happens the first time these are taken out for a drive? Who's to say they won't just snap under the load. Did you take one in and have it magna-fluxed for internal cracks?? I'm sure you didn't. How about bringing it to a place like Twin City Testing to have a shock load test done, this probably wouldn't be a bad idea either. When you account for the weight load your using, the torque factor on the axle during acceleration, and combine that with a bumpy road.... How long are these going to hold up???


[/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ]
If I understand the proces right, Magna-flux will not help you detect internal cracks...
X ray will.

[/ QUOTE ]
Cracks are most likely to occur at the surface,
since the greater the distance from the neutral axis,the higher the stresses..
Magnaflux will help find cracks at the surface.
X-ray is more for finding inclusions,and porosity,in welds.
The torque loads on the front axle under acceleration are almost nonexistant.
The front axle is loaded in torsion under braking,and Yes,
increasing the drop would increase the torsional loads.
However,if the axle is not Quenched after stretching,it is not going to get brittle.
In fact,the extra heat will normalize the area,which would eliminate any work hardening
that has occured over the last 75 years.
But thenbeing a Mechanical Engineer,you would know that.

The price that Titus quoted was low enough that it would not justify someone
making a fixture to do just one axle.Unfortunately,this conflict will end up
costing you guys some business.

There is no one that hates people taking credit for work they didn't do,than myself.
BUT,if you guys have a problem with Titus,take it up with him.

[metalshapes]

Unkl, so internal cracks are not likely to happen, if there are none on the surface?

[Unkl Ian]

[ QUOTE ]
so internal cracks are not likely to happen, if there are none on the surface?

[/ QUOTE ]
Based on my understanding of stresses and work hardening,that is correct.
The vast majority of times,cracks start from the outside.

[Morrisman]

Mordrop have done hundreds if not thousands of axles just the same way, and they were featured in Street Rodder (I think) a couple years back, with full credits and kudos. No word there about heat treating, crack testing, annealing, safety issues or whatever.
Paul

[Bass]

Ummm...I have an article that was in one of the major mags, either R'n'C or Street Rodder around 1990 that showed the drop process as used by Mor-Drop at that time.

In that article, it showed the axle was NOT heated, but rather bent cold on a HUGE press.

Mor-Drop may have heated axles in the past, but I don't think that is the case any longer. I'll have to dig that article out when I get home.

[metalshapes]

Great!
That test is cheap enough to do for each individual axle.
That eleminates the need to turn this thread into an other Jerry Springer type Drama Fest.

[titus]

Hey everybody its christmas and im getting slammed!!! just got on and noticied this post!
I know i didnt come up with the idea of the jig but a few friend were also making up a jig and brian herd about it and asked me a little more about, no im not takeing the credit for the whole deal (if you noticied i never said I, it was always we or me and my buddy, etc etc) but brian was wondering about it and he just built a jig off of the ideas we talked about.And when i put it on here i never intended for as much feed back as i got.
Brian new i was going to put this on here beacause i told him!! thats why we were taking pics!! I have talked to him about this already when he called me sat night. He also new i was going to put axle on tha hamb for sale. and theres a still alot of people who arent going to go out and make ther own jig, theyd rather have someone do it.
Every body so dam worried about it breaking, it aint gonna! if it was gonna happen it wouldve happened along time ago!!! mor-drop and dago wouldt be around! things were a little crued back in the day, ive even herd of axles where they cut the ends off and formed drops out of flat bar in the shape of a beam!!! i even built one like this and it is on my 34 tudor (ill find out if this one will break this summer!) but im not worried!!!
so Mr fields, before you go blabbing your mouth make sure you have more than one side of the story!!! i never laid full claim to it and i think its pretty sad of you to act in this way. Brian did call me and i did apoligize to him if we had a misunderstanding. thanks everyone for the support (good or bad) because you always need to here both sides of the story.
Brian is a very smart guy and am glad to know him and hope this isnt going to effect our friend-ship but if idt does itll be his choice, i dont like keeping secrets about good info or ideas (whether or not they were mine) beacause the sports about having fun!!
Till next time
TITUS

[thirtytwo]

im sure i might get slammed for this , even though i would use one of these axle without a second thought, and im pretty sure nothing would ever happen, we live in a differnt time lawsuits ,liability, i would be scared to sell these axles , ever seen the cans with "KNOWN TO CAUSE CANCER IN CALIFORNIA" really? only CA! no theres just three lawyers to every one average person here , 2 of which are ambulance chasers salivating at the chance of a lawsuit, no one more then i wish it was 1945,... but its not , i probely would have kept it secret too , but its not..now what...ANY LAWYERS ON THE HAMB, IF SO HOW 'BOUT SOME ADVISE?

[briggs&strattonChev]

I agree with that thirtytwo said. I would use an axle I dropped myself on MY own car, but I wouldnt sell them to others. If they fuck it up when they put it on and they crack it somehow and kill themself, I wouldnt wanna be the one in jail over a few bucks http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif. Just my thoughts

Briggs

[Unkl Ian]

I think I would trust a forged axle that had been dropped and drilled to stand up better than
some of the aftermarket Mustang II crossmembers we have seen on here.Fish or no Fish.
We have seen pictures of a couple crossmember failures,and heard of several more.
With all the beam axle cars that have been crashed and destroyed in short track
racing over the years,and the thousands of miles on the street with dropped axles,
how many axles have actually broken?I've never heard of one.
Has anyone noticed how thin those axles are on the outside of the Kingpin boss?
Nobody worries about that,but somehow a piece of steel over 1 1/2" square is going to snap.
If it hasn't been Quenched,it won't be brittle,and it won't snap.

[ELpolacko]

[ QUOTE ]
.Fish or no Fish.
We have seen pictures of a couple crossmember failures,and heard of several more.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ian I am doing an emergency repair right now on annother catastophic failure, two time loser to be exact. My digital camera was at home so took pictures with a disposeable. As soon as I can I will scan the pics of the dammage and repair.



As far as the rest of this goes, I hear a lot of he said she said bull. Kinda like what led me to put up the "how to Mustang II" post a while back. I did it to show just how much work, time and thought goes into this stuff. It is clear these guys have a lot of work developing this and there is some bad blood forming because it was posted here.

I represent a guy here in town that has spent much more in building dies and fixturing to drop all types of axles and straighten them too. Many people have wanted to see pictures like you folks have posted so they can do it at home too. Fact of the matter is the fixturing is propietary as is the technique and therefore is a closely gaurded secret. The idea is nothing new only the methods are. There are a lot of people that think this type of work should be public knowledge, well it isn't and we really don't feel like giving away all of our hard work and time to anyone. I think that is the real crux of this argument.

[titus]

your correct there, i want to be a millionare also. i mean thats what the whole worlds about isnt it, money!!!!

That sucks, as long as i have enough money to have fun and afford my toys ill be happy, sure i dream about the lottery, but what are the chances of that.

[296 V8]

ok anyone out there ever see a beam axel broken? sean some bent ones but never one broken. I dont think it can be done. I bet its never been done. this is a bunch of Fn BS about nothen.

[thirtytwo]

never saw a forged beam broken but saw a superbell tube broke and heard of a cast one break never saw it though,anyone else ?

[296 V8]

first thing you need to do is look at the front end for its weakest link. I say its gota be the main leaf in the spring 1/4" thick? at best? shackels? but theres two of them or is it four?

[Morrisman]

Bass,
This article was only a couple of years back, and showed them stuffing the end of the axle into a furnace to get it hot. It all looked decidedly crude to me. I couldn't see how the hell they kept the kingpin boss true and round after using it as a major anchorage point and swinging on the rest. Doing it cold would take a MASSIVE press, and would likely tear the boss apart, or rip it off off the end of the axle, in my humble experience with metal anyway.

[Hackerbilt]

I saw a mag article on dropping axles where the end was heated in a forge and then the kingpin boss was QUENCHED to cool it so that it wouldn't deform as the drop was made.
That scared me more than anything that Tightass( http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif) and the Toad are doing! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Bill

[Unkl Ian]

[ QUOTE ]
and then the kingpin boss was QUENCHED to cool it

[/ QUOTE ]


If it was reheated and then air cooled,after it was dropped,it wouldn't be a problem.

[Hackerbilt]

Hmmmmm.... Yeah! True enough Unkl! MUST be what they did...Rough shape it after cooling the boss a little and then toss it in the forge again to reheat it to allow for an even cooling and possibly reset the camber and even up the caster at that time as well. Makes perfect sense...but I'm sure they didn't SAY it that way! ( Well...I don't THINK they said that anyway... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif )
I read the article a LONG time ago...early ROD ACTION I think. It is a little fuzzy now. LoL

Bill

[choprods]

sounds like a whole lot of something over a little nothing to me.....I say Titus was offering up some good info to the Hamb in good faith.lets drop this potatoe before it gets too hot.this shouldn't take up space that could be used for something more of interest to all the HAMB.

[four-thirteen]

martin luther translated the bible to the language of the common man. look what it got him. look what happened. a simple idea with the power to destroy people, topple nations, change the conduit of history. too many fucking secrets. knowledge, no matter how small or large is never insignificant. an idea is a whole lot more dangerous than any other weapon in existence. intellectual property is one of the biggest commodities of modern day.

those who create ideas are the ones we see as divinity. how do we see those who seek to dispense those ideas? is kelso our modern day hephaestus? i don’t know. i do know that he’s one hell of a hot rodder, and can do things with a welder I didn’t think were possible. our own prometheus, or titus, if you please, lit the torch on the sun and brought it down to the hambers. how appropriate, that the prometheus of past mythology was a titan.

titus didn’t tell how to drop axles at home, he told about how if you get off your ass and use the fucking brain god gave all of us, there isn’t anything you can’t do. the consequence was martyrdom. too bad there are no new ideas, just ones that haven't circulated for a while.

if the old drop axle jig in the pictures is so insigniticant, why was there a demand for a “post for tech week”? kelso didn’t invent the drop axle, but he sure did invent the hamb tech week winning axle dropping technique for your own backyard.

hephaestus and prometheus are rulers. four-thirteen

[just steve]

I've seen a cast I-beam axle broken as the RESULT of an accident, but not the cause. It was a major enough deal that it didn't matter if the axle stayed together or not -- major unplanned off-road excursion with a '29 RPU, back in the late '80s.

Forged steel parts are about the toughest stuff you can get -- especially the new forged axles from CE and others.

later,
Steve.

[tommy]

[ QUOTE ]
I've seen a cast I-beam axle broken as the RESULT of an accident, but not the cause. It was a major enough deal that it didn't matter if the axle stayed together or not -- major unplanned off-road excursion with a '29 RPU, back in the late '80s. Steve.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly... Take the same ride in your late model and see what breaks!

[Ryan]

The new guy with zero manners might have some good points, but I've seen this very process (using almost exact fixtures) illustrated on the HAMB no less than 3 times in the past 9 years. This is nothing new...

As for Brian, I'd be more than happy to give him a shirt too for his efforts...

[kustombuilder]

this guy is obviously NOT interested in the HAMB or us HAMBers. he's only interested in Ripping Titus a new one and then running away. he won't be back. sounds like just another internet tough guy and i for one am not interested in anything he has to say after busting in here like he did and then running off like he did. if i see the post number nextto his name change from "1" i'll be REAL surprised. don't sweat it Titus.

[Levis Classic]

Well said Kustombuilder!

[titus]

Hey Ryan i already offered him my T-shirt but he said he wasnt interested. I think everything here got blown out of proportion, i didnt say i invented it ever just things can get carried away. Brian hasnt even read the post, hes just going off of what Mr Fields has told him. I dont even know who he is, never met him!! but o-well. Im not gonna loose any sleep over it!
Titus

[burndup]

holy SHIT 413, you need to post more often!

[Zeke]

Al Gore Invested the Dropped Axle
Sun December 21, 2003 11:05 AM ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. vice-president and 2000 Democratic presidential candidate Al Gore Made a statement after bailing his son Al “Stash” Gore III out of jail for possession of marijuana.
http://clem.mscd.edu/~swaggerm/alwhore2.jpg

"I would like to point out that. during my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the dropped axle." The loser of the 2000 U.S. Presidental election said, "Throughout most of my life, I’ve dropped axles. I want you to know that with my own hands, all of my life, I put them in the jigs and heated the axles. I've bent them. I've drilled them. I've chromed them, I've installed them, and sold them."

When asked what dropped axles are used on Mr.Gore said he wasn't sure but they must be good because he read about them on the HAMB.

A family spokeswoman said the family is in the habit of not commenting publicly on the dumbass lies that Al tells.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[briggs&strattonChev]

lol NICE Zeke!

[Levis Classic]

Holy shit Zeke thats great. Not only did he invent the internet but the dropped axle as well. What next the Ford Flathead engine?

[Morrisman]

Hacker,
That's the one. Quenched the boss so it wouldn't distort while they tugged on the rest of it. Looked so damn crude to my liking, and I honestly thought the whole article was some Aprils Fools joke, for a while anyways http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[porknbeaner]

Well, I haven't read the whole post. Too lazy I guess.
And, I'm not a mechanical engineer, or an attorney.
Never the less, I thought that you X-Rayed for internal cracks. Or at least an ultrasound. Unless I'm totaly mistaken, Magana-Flux is only gonna show a crack that comes all the way to the surface.
Now on to the legal issue, if I build my own fixture, and bend my own axle, the liability is on me. Uh, I'm free, caucasion, and over 21.
On the otherhand, if Kelso bends my axle then he takes on the liability. Now it seems to me that Kelso is bending axles, it is his fixture isn't it?
I don't know Kelso, probably a hell of a nice guy. And if its his fixture and he's bending axles for folks (at a reasonable price) he couldn't be too concerned about it.
Actually come to think of it I'm not at all sure I know you either STRANGER.
OH, did I mention for you to have a Happy Holiday? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[VolksRodder]

X-ray can find internal cracking (and surface cracking as well), but... it's most useful in finding porosity, inclusions, slag in welds, etc... as these leave larger pockets to detect. The trick with finding cracks with X-ray is that it's near impossible to detect a crack laying perpendicular to the X-ray beam. The crack would have to be nearly parellel with the X-ray beam, thus forming a nice dark line (since there's less dense material there... aka AIR). But, when the crack is laying perpendicular to the X-ray beam, the minute difference in material density makes it VERY hard to detect. It would have to be a fairly large gap to show a measurable density difference on the film.

And magnaflux testing can detect subsurface cracks, just not with the most commonly used AC current method (with the yoke). If you're using the DC current method (preferably half-wave rectified DC) you can detect subsurface discontinuities, but they still need to be somewhat near the surface... The AC current method (yoke) is best used for surface cracks as the magnetic field is going across the surface, as apposed to being introduced into the part with the DC method.

The argument between magnaflux and X-ray being the best method for finding internal cracks is moot. The best way to find internal cracking (in ferrous material) would be ultrasound, as porknbeaner suggested above...

The chances of having actual internal cracking without them starting at the surface is slim also.

[39cent]

well as far as ford axles go I have a video of the ford exhibition at the San Diego world exhibition back in 35, and they had this machine that would take a ford axle and twist it like a corkscrew, and they also had a complete 35 ford sedan hangin from the ceiling off the center of a ford wire wheel! [well thats a little sketchy]