Lost French Flatheads found - Holy Frijoles!

[30roadster]

http://www.webbed-toe.com/images/flatheadheaven/gallery/pileofgold.jpg

I've been working on this for about a month. I had heard of a guy in town that everyone called "flathead". I bumped into him at a swap meet a few months ago selling some funny looking flathead stuff and old speed equipment. After I picked up a merc flathead I gave him a call and we started talking. I found out that the funny looking flathead stuff was funny looking because it is french...so i mentioned the fact that not so long ago i had read an article in street rodder about some french flatheads...and he said these are the very same engines....and then he offered to let me take a look at them..so i did and brought my digital camera....after some talking i offered to make him a webpage so maybe he could sell a few more engines...and so i did.... HERE (http://www.webbed-toe.com/flatheads.htm) anyways - he's a nice guy - if your in the market give him a call...if you just want to look at the cool pictures - be my guest! - kyle

[Bondo Slinger]

HOLY CRAP!!!!

[Evel]

Shit the site don't work I want to see more!!!!!!

Evel

[kustomolds]

What am I looking at? All I see is a bunch of reflective dots on the shelving. Sorry, the link didn't work for mr either.... Nice find though.

[SlowLearner]

I think them little dots be yellow plastic storage caps in the water pump outlets!!
HOLY SHIT what a find!
"I see THINGS...beautiful THINGS!!"
Show us MORE! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[30roadster]

try this...damn... (http://www.webbed-toe.com/flatheads.htm)

[30roadster]

[ QUOTE ]
I think them little dots be yellow plastic storage caps in the water pump outlets!!
HOLY SHIT what a find!
"I see THINGS...beautiful THINGS!!"
Show us MORE! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

you are correct http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[SlowLearner]

Yeah, that NEW link works! Double Holy Shit!!

[PFF]

I run one of these in England, but the 4" crank version. It hauls like a train; you cant beat a brand new crate motor.
I don’t wish to hi jack you’re post, but if any one this side of the pond wants one, I have a batch coming early next year. They will be about £1000.
Before any one Stateside thinks this is a better deal, remember you would have to ship this plus pay duty tax etc
These ones in Texas are a good deal

Pete

[36couper]

Are you sure a "French" flathead will run in an American car? Anything French doesn't seem to work or cooperate with Americans lately.

[Petejoe]

Wow! Now That's flathead heaven alright. Now to just put one of these on my Christmas list. Thanks for sharing Kyle.

[swissmike]

I got my nos block, 4"crank and main bearings for $1000 from some guy who bougth it from Halibrand and then ran out of money to build the engine. This was the best investment in flathead stuff, definitely better than the money and time I wasted on 6 ford blocks which turned out to be junk.
These blocks are VERY nice, much better cast, have thicker decks etc.

I personally would not buy a complete engine, because you most likely end up tossing all the odd ball accessories anyway.

Nice find and website, although I don't believe the profit margins are that slim...

[30roadster]

[ QUOTE ]
I personally would not buy a complete engine, because you most likely end up tossing all the odd ball accessories anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah you would be tossing the generator, starter, heads, intake, flywheel, maybe distributor....but you would be way ahead of the game as far as a runner goes..... money wise and time wise...

[PFF]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I personally would not buy a complete engine, because you most likely end up tossing all the odd ball accessories anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah you would be tossing the generator, starter, heads, intake, flywheel, maybe distributor....but you would be way ahead of the game as far as a runner goes..... money wise and time wise...

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont know what you guys have, but in the past I have used the 3.9 engines straight out of the crate, the only thing we changed was the carb, the standard one is governed.
On the 4" stroke crank engines you have to change the sump, carb and water pumps.
My engine runs a set of heads, but you can run the stock ones as long as you make up smaller thermostat housings.

[30roadster]

the only thing you have to change is the flywheel, and the 24 volt generator and starter... i think...i just assumed folks would want aluminium heads and intake....

[fuel pump]

I've got one of the bare blocks still in the box that I'd sell if anyone is interested. PM me.

[wingnutz]

Isn't this the Guy that Hilborn buys their flatheads from...? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[mytlo56]

Holy sheet! Man, that's a fair price and with a cam, heads, intake & carbs you could have a little monster. Geez, makes me want to build a roadster http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[30roadster]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't this the Guy that Hilborn buys their flatheads from...? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Dunno? - Mark do you mean Halibrand? These engines were up in Kansas for a while....

[Just Gary]

[ QUOTE ]
you most likely end up tossing all the odd ball accessories anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]
You mean like rocker covers ? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[modernbeat]

And here's the rest of the story...

Flathead lives in Bryan/College Station.

He doesn't own those flatheads - or so he's told me a few times every year for the last four or five years, but he's the only sales outlet for the guy that does own them.

He's a diehard flathead fan and has continuously run flattys since the '60s.

My opinion is that he's more of a fan of the flathead rather than a flathead guru.

He's one of the cheapest sources for a complete flathead engine. Problem is that delivery times are a little slow. Tends to only sell one or two a month.

He's been carting the same spark arrestors and quickchange around to swaps for three years without selling them. When he brings flathead parts, they sell within the first minutes because those parts are priced cheaply.

He is a die-hard flathead fan (did I say that already) and still drag races his barely streetable Pilot. He's been pulling OK times with a stock french flatty with a cam, intake and exaust.

Cash talks, BS walks with him. Don't waste his time or yank his chain.

[30roadster]

I see you've met him modernbeat http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Bruce Lancaster]

"He's been pulling OK times with a stock french flatty with a cam, intake and exaust."
Numbers?? I'm always dredging for flathead numbers...And what's a Pilot doing in Texas??

[flatlandman]

It was quite few years ago when they first surfaced. A friend who was in Canadian army told me about a warehouse he saw while on exchange, stuffed with them back in the mid 80's. More than likely the same stash.
Here's Halibrand's info and prices on them.
http://www.halibrand.com/flathead_info.htm

[hotrodA]

<font color="red"> </font> PFF...check your PM's. Thanks!

[modernbeat]

Bruce, seems like we spoke of two different cars. A "fat" car that ran 16+ times (sorta slow) and the Pilot (Anglia) with full road gear and a roll bar or roll cage (been a while since I've seen it) that ran a 14+. I don't remember the exact numbers, and wasn't too impressed with the slips until he told me what went into the engine.

FWIW, Flathead usually attends the Rod Run to the Chicken Oil Ranch in Bryan, Texas just after the first of the year.

[30roadster]

modernbeat - whats a pilot? - john said his car was a 1948 prefect ( 4 door anglia ) he just put a roll bar in the car about a week ago. he doesn't have a cage. he has an opel GT front end and a 9 inch rear...it's a stock frame that is lightly braced. Wonder if we are talking about the same car? He has a huge photo album of all the cars and engines he has built over the years. It seems he has played with about one of everything flathead related. I don't know what the definition of a flathead guru is but he's my resource and has been very helpful. I don't run across many folks that will take time out of their weekend to come and help out a total stranger with their car projects... well except on the HAMB http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[briggs&strattonChev]

so ford parts will interchange with them? Why cant it be ran just as it is?

[30roadster]

it can....except for the heavy flywheel and the 24 volt generator and starter....they need to be changed out...i don't know?...is there anything that can be done to use the generator and starter as a 12 volt system?

[flatoz]

great to see

[Bruce Lancaster]

A Pilot is an English Ford V8 built in the early fifties. As far as I have been able to figure out, the body and chassis seem to be '35-36 Ford with a new front end that resembles a Prefect (the four door Anglia). They had hydraulic brakes in front, and mechanical in the rear(??!!??), and the hydraulics at least were not related to any American brakes. Engines had a Lucas distributor that was occasionally sold here as a speed item. I've never found positive engine info, but suspect the original engine was a 1937 type 21 stud. Practically unknown outside of the Empire...

[littledeucecoupe427]

Same story as always...if I only had the cash!

[modernbeat]

Yeah, old age setting in. Prefect - not Pilot. And yeah, it's the one that he's got a gazilion photos of in the scrapbook. Could have swore that the car had a roll bar under the chicken wire roof insert.

Anyway, that car is fairly heavy for the times he told me it was turning.

And I reserve Guru status for the folks that have done intensive experimentation on them and are able to eek out the last HP at a given reliabitity or dollar celing. While I think he certainly knows how to put an engine together, I don't think he's done a lot of independant experimentation or innovation. Just carefuly followed others recipies. Not to belittle him though. He certainly knows how to put an engine together, and certainly knows more than ME. I don't think you'll go wrong getting him to guide you into flathead land.

Regardless, he's a good guy, and a neat to know guy. If we crossed paths more often I think we'd be friends.

[Mart]

Re Bruce's post on Pilots: Bang on Bruce, I agree with all points.
More info;
They had column shift. They had a spare wheel cover in the trunk lid. Most were 4 door saloons, (sedans) a few were woodies, either original or converted. Some were built with commercial bodies, but only as one-offs. there are no two door bodies. They had a hydraulic jacking system built in. When Pilot front axles are used on a rod, you can see the holes where the jacks bolted on.
Mart.

[dusty]

[ QUOTE ]
the only thing you have to change is the flywheel, and the 24 volt generator and starter... i think...i just assumed folks would want aluminium heads and intake....




[/ QUOTE ]
Why? For an every day runner, the 24 volt stuff will work just fine. So you might do the heads and maybe an intake but the rest can stay. Just takes 2 batteries in series and tap off one battery for your 12 volt stuff. I ended up having to do a 2 battery series/parallel circuit to keep the flywheel and starter and replaced the generator as it is just about as big as the motor itself. It is the 4" motor. The other motor has a gennie that is about the same size as Henry's. Also kept the big alum oil pan.

[mytlo56]

So has anyone touched base w/ this guy and/or tried to buy a motor? I'm curious...

[thirtytwo]

me too

[30roadster]

John isn't a computer guy. I set up the webpage so emails will be forwarded to his wife's email account at home.
The best way to reach him is to call him. 979-696-0115
if you want to know more info...ask him if you could call someone who bought one of those flatheads. I think thats very reasonable. If you have any trouble contacting him you can pm me and i'll leave him a note on his front door. He lives about 1/2 mile down the road from me.

John is an old hot rodder that works as a harley technician. He ran across a guy in town that imported these flatheads about 3 or 4? years ago and sold them to halibrand. halibrand went bankrupt and the guy that imported them got them back. they are just sitting in a warehouse needing a home now. The importer is an interesting fellow that really doesn't want to talk to the general public and answer dumb questions. John is the go between. modernbeat made out like john is a little crusty... well he may be...but not as crusty as the importer http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

and for a seperate note:
I know this may be hard to believe but no i'm not getting paid nor have i been promised anything from this...I did it for fun and so i could show off the pictures of all the flatheads.

[fuel pump]

30,
Is the guy you are talking about who found them an Englishman?

[30roadster]

no he's a military vehicle restorer that goes over to Europe and the Pacific rim countries and buys WW2 surplus. He bought and imported the engines from France as far as I know.

[fuel pump]

That's funny because I met a Brit 3 or 4 years ago who said he was the one that actually found them in France in an old warehouse. He is a friend of Mark Kirby's (Motor City Flathead) who was selling the blocks at that time. He told the story in front of Mark, who is usually in the know, so I took it to be the truth. Oh well http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[30roadster]

I don't know who he talked to in France... but I know he shipped them home....apparently as "junk"... I can call and find out the exact details if your interested.....

[modernbeat]

I doubt that there was only one person that has imported a large number of these engines, or that there was in fact a "first" person that did it.

I know quite a few car and airplane folks that have scoured England, Western Europe, and more recently Eastern Europe for the last 30 years buying military surplus and shipping it to the US, South America, Central America, etc...for fun and profit.

In the last 10 years Ken Crimmons bought a few warehouses full of military "VW Things", the modern version of the Kubelwagen, also known as a 141. He sold some to collectors in the US, some to outback car rental outfits in Brazil and Mexico.

I think StreetRodder had a sidebar on these engines sometime between 1988 to 1991 or so.

Some Porsche friends of mine bought a huge catch of euro military Airplane support equipment back in the late '80s because it was powered by industrial Porsche engines that were useful for reviving Porsche 356s.

Lots of WWII collectors scour southern Europe (Greece, Turkey) as LOTS of German military vehicles were left there after the war. Civilans used them, modified and repaired them as necessary, but they are still around.

I still check out the occasional state side Military auction. These days it's usually junk (to my eyes) but the occasional running deuce and a half, or de-milled MUTT shows up. Usually it's just lots of empty containers or a drum full of Military Hummer tail-lights, but they are still fun.