SUSPENSION, Dropping axles

[titus]

Here are some pics of a jig me and a buddy made to drop axles. It works good. First heres a pic of the end where the spindle goes(an old spindle welded to rect. tubing perpandicular to anther longer piece of rec. tubing.

[titus]

then we made a index stop to how much we want to drop it, so when the axle is in the jig you measure up and set it at say 2 inches

[titus]

then on the other end there is a guide to keep it going from side to side and we also made a stop for amount of drop ont the other end so the chamber is correct, and also on some axles we made a stop so the axle would stretch as it was being dropped(bolt into perch bolt hole)

[titus]

once you get all the measurements done your ready to heat

[titus]

then more heat ( try to stay about a 3/4 to 1/2 inch in from the perch and kingpin holes

[titus]

then when its red hot you put a bottle jack underneith the perch bolt hole and start to jack (keeping heat on it moving around) just go slow, if it starts to thin in an area just concentrate the heat in a diff area, just keep going till you get to your amount of drop. then just repeat for the other side. the usauly turn out pretty uniform but are always going to slightly very

[titus]

heres the finished product

[SwitchBlade327]

well that seems alot less complicated that I thought it would be. How do you make sure both ends have the same amount of drop? I'm not getting the 3rd pic though, is that the same jig or a different one? what does what in that pic?

[titus]

heres a duece commercial one i dropped i think it the best looking one!!

[Evel]

Wow that RULES!!!!


Nice Job thanks for the TECH.....

Evel

[titus]

heres some more left to right
32-36 2-1/4 inch drop
" " " "
Model A 2-3/4 inch drop
Model A 2 inch drop

[SwitchBlade327]

Whats the lowest drop you've been able to pull off doing this? Jusst wondering how far you can stretch a stock axle.

[lowsquire]

that aint too tricky at all !
thanks, great tech post , and i might just do it myself....any aussie guys interested in offering up an axle or two? I work in a metal fabrication/forging shop, and reckon i could set that up in an afternoon.

[titus]

its the same jig just at the other end. So you make a stop at that end also. i know it was a bad pics but dont have camera right know. basically it has a loop that limits how much that end moves and the other end you contol with the jack they just have to both move the same

[titus]

the most weve been able to drop was the duece com. about 2 7/8 over what they are already (a 4 inch drop isnt realy a 4 inch drop axle they already have a drop built in, so say it already has a 1 3/4 drop and you drop it 2 1/4 you have a 4 inch dropped axle. If you stretch them to far they thin out and get skinny and funny looking ( O I guess like a dego axle)

[SwitchBlade327]

Could you make one and just use a spindle on both sides? and build some kind of adjustable stop for whatever amount of drop your going for? Couldn't you also make the lenth of th ejig adjustable for different axle lenths? I'm just tryign to think of a way to make something similar that would work for alot of different axles and drops and still keep things where they should be.

[titus]

the only problem with that is when you drop the they also have to get narrower (some more than others) so i think you can only do one end at a time and this one will do any early ford axle

[Hackerbilt]

If you lock down one kingpin hole, then anchor the other end of the axle at a set height, bending the axle like that would cause the camber to go negative...how do you compensate?
Do you have it set up so you can simply remove a pin or whatever from the "cold" side of the jig and then lift the axle to spec before it cools or do you adjust them after they cool?
Also...how do you verify proper temperature for bending without overheating? How do you go about cooling the axle after bending?

That sure is a simple setup bud! Gotta hand it to you!
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Bill

[lowsquire]

just thinking. a rod that runs up through the perch hole,welded to the jig, perpendicular to the axis of drop would keep everything in alignment better, the jack could sit just inside the perch pin 'rod'
Or does the track width decrease when you do these? If so, how do you keep that aspect even? A bit of 'adjustment' after both sides are dropped?

[titus]

we let the other end move with the axle till it also hits its stop. the stop on the end you are heating is stopped by the depth gauge and you stop pmping the jack. i guess i dont heat the axle so it drips on the floor! and i let it cool down by itself when it wants to, i dont want to quench it with water because it would make it weak without anealing it

[titus]

you could do that but it doesnt travel straigt up. Its at yet another angle!!. the track width does get narrower but we put a stop in the perch bolt hole on the end were not heating so it limits the amount it narrows, the usauly seem to act the same way every time so it turn out pretty even but ive never realy measured it, figured a 1/4 wont make a bit of differenc if it even gets that far out!

[bobbleed]

That's cool.

[kustombuilder]

real cool. i just wonder if it weakens the axle at all. obviously quenching it would make it brittle but would it not be a good idea to have it REheat treated after the drop?? i'm sure they never bothered back in the day but i suppose it could be done for a little piece of mind. way cool tech TITUS. i might try it one day just for fun http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Mart]

Nice Job Titus, I'm impressed by the simplicity of it. I picked up a 32 axle the other day, I might have a go at dropping that one. I remember an article in one of the mags (RnC?) that showed the process used at Mor-Drop. It was similar but the perch bolt area was guided to give a certain amount of stretch. (If I remember right). They also cooled the perch boss and kingpin boss to keep distortion down.
How do you get on with kingpin hole size? Any problems?
Good post.
Mart.

[Hackerbilt]

the more I look at this the more I'd like to pat you on the back for pulling out ALL stops and showing just how much IS possible to do home!
I have some concerns however...
I worry about the effects TOO MUCH heat might have in that high stressed area. In a forge you can control it and keep it even. Might not even be an issue but...it just makes me wonder.
Wheres our Metallurgist(sp)!?!?
Also...I think it would be an idea to cool the end by burying it deeply in a container of dry sand. That would allow the heat to equalize thru-out the end and then cool slowly and evenly. The old guy who taught me to weld told me to ALWAYS do that with a forged steel suspension part that sees serious heat or welding.

Are those axles really heat-treated? Hmmmmmm...???
They should bend to fail, not snap off! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Bill

[nobux]

In reply to the concerns of heat treating, I would point out the reliability of tube axles. Surely a dropped beam axle that has been heated and allowed to air cool has to be as strong as a lightweight tube axle. I would agree with idea of burying the ends in sand just to give a little peace of mind. Just my thoughts.

[bottle]

That was a Great Posting good pics and the finished product looks as good as any, cool

[choprods]

Great Job Titus- I think this post is a winner!

Looks like a rookie here on the HAMB has a good chance of winning Tech Week. I might have to try this. I've got a couple of stock axles layin around. Thought I would never use them.
Clark

[Mr 42]

Thanks Titus
I will definatly try this at home :-)

[titus]

Hey thanks a ton for all the positive feed back hambers, it feel good to be accepted by some realy cool people! I will keep in mind the deal with cooling the axle in sand, for the next batch we do. Again thanks TITUS

[Rocky]

This is a graphic depiction of what can be done at home if you have an open mind, some basic tools and a sense of adventure. I love it. Thanks, Titus.
And to think, I gave away a couple 40 axles just because I couldn't afford to have 'em dropped for resale..

[Paul]

all hale TITUS!

in one week he has risen from newbe to full fledged HAMBer!

GREAT post!

Paul

[Tuck]

awesome!

[36-3window]

in responde for all the concerns about heat treating...it is my understanding that the Supebell I-beam is heat treated,but they are cast. the magnum and CE i-beam axles are forged and are not heat treated. i don't think not doing it to titus's axles should be a problem,as long as you cool them slowely,i don't think Mor-Drop ever did heat treat their's.....besides,we heat and bend forged ford steering arsm all the time without any problems,after cooling slowly...just my opinion

[29EHV8]

titus for president!
bitchin post man.On the heat treatin deal.I talked to my dad and he said you don't need to have em heat treated.By the way hes been bending,weldin and cuttin steel since the early 50s,Iron worker by trade.We have heated and bent our Old Time Stockcar axles for decades and never had a problem at all.The sand deal would be good though,just like the other guys have said.
Again,Titus great post.I think you and PakRat 32 have shown everyone on this board what you/we can do at home to transform our dreams into reality without phonin some 1-800 number and recitin VISA(tm) numbers.Weld done........Shiny

[disastron13]

What a great post, shows what a couple guys in a good shop can do. I'm impressed, alsways thought a big drop forging press was the only way to do it.
As far as preventing distortion and overheatin of the holes in the axle, welding supply companies sell this stuff like modeling clay that you can cover an area with. It's used in weldin tubular structures to control which area gets hottest.
Maybe that would be useful?

[Southfork]

Very impressive, Titus! I'm going to try this. I would like to know about the spindle bushings, though. Being softer metal like copper alloy, if the spindle bushings get hot, don't they melt out, leaving some slop in the alignment of the jig? Do you just ignore that, or don't they melt, or do you have some other work-around???

Cool Post!

[oddrod]

great homegrown job. i was thinking what about 1 more person and 2 more torches? 2 of the people heat both ends at once. with fixed stops for height the 3rd person jacks the i-beam (and narrates "more heat left less heat right") up in the center until it hits the stops? this way there is no seesaw work involved. maybe some one else covered this, i was reading this post so fast i didn't go to deep. seems this would also let you use the least amount of heat overall. now i have to make one too, i've got 4 front ibeams, one's a 32 (thicker i think) can't wait to see what happens. it's funny, i've been goin' over this in my head for some time and it was just what i thought. now we'll see how cheap they become, with every one making them it will be hard to find a stock one soon. thank you, stevo

[Unkl Ian]

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to know about the spindle bushings,

[/ QUOTE ]
The bushings are in the spindles,not in the axle.There are no bushings in the axle.
The kingpins do not turn in the axle.

[titus]

luckily the brass bushings dont budge a bit or melt.And the problem with doing both ends at once is that the axle has to narrow a bit else it would stretch it to much if you drop it to much. Thanks everybody for the great compliments!!

[Kerry]

That's just plain awesome!

[draggin'GTO]

Excellent work Titus! A very straight-foreward method and a great job on the tooling. Congrats on successfully taking on a job that most would think is impossible to do without high-buck tools. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

----- Bart -----

[NealinCA]

Awesome post.

That 32 "Heavy" is beautiful!

Neal

[BELLM]

Excellent post!! Sometimes we just try to make things too complicated. True to life homegrown hot rod engineering! Now, show us how to chrome plate em at home on the cheap!! I think we have the winna! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[SamIyam]

I think you uys are on to something...

But I still don't understand how you keep the Camber of the kingpin dead nuts... in order to do that. the stop on the other end with that bolt that the spring perch bopss goes into would have to adjustable too and not set at stock height... I'm just thinking about making your good idea better... so why not have a set of holes for a the stops on each end so you can adjust them to the different drops you might do... pull a pin, adjust it... and then go!

Also, if you guys are going to be doing this for people... and charging for it... I'd get the shiznit about the metal-urgee figured out... if I went to you and asked you to drop an axle for me... and you didn't have an answer to every question I had... I'd look for someone else to drop my axle...

I'm also curious to hear what av8 and 38Chevy454 have to say about this...


Enough bs... this is a neat-ass post...

Sam.

[titus]

we dont have to keep it dead nuts because as long as they are the same its ok Ford originaly designed the negative chamber in the axle because the roads were so poor and it helped the cars handle better on em. the jig does have stop on the other end to keep the travel the same as the amout of drop(we use a differnt length spacer fo the diff amount drop) weve already discussed about the hardening of the axle and everyone agrees (like i originaly said) to let it cool off like normal (probably what mor-drop did), plus buy the way the axle is only ever just gonna bend itll never snap off its very soft metal for being what it is. if you look at some of the old ford books they tested the strenght of a stock model A axle by twisting it like a twizzler a whole buncha times the pic is cool

[36-3window]

i'm concerned about geting the king pin inclanation right. old fords were 9 degrees. i've sent two axles out to Mor-drop and both of them came back wrong,i haed to build a jig(not as elaborate as titus's) and straighten them out myself.

are any of the finished axles on the road now?

[Flat Ernie]

The winner! This is awesome tech and really gives me a LOT of incentive to do my own on my '40 (I've got an extra axle).

I've got a question on the "guide side".



The angle iron on the outside is obviously the "guide" that keeps the axle from twisting - where is the stop? Can you post another pic of this side dead-on (square to the axle)? Are the stops built into this area or do you just let this end float?

[LIMEY]

Just going to add to all the other positive comments, this is the most simple yet useful post i've seen, well done.
I know there is always talk of losing strength on major parts after serious heating, & we all know this kind of modification has been done for years, but does anyone have stories or pics of any that simply broke & not just bent!

[Hackerbilt]

DAMN! Ernie is right...I think!
I ASSUMED (NEVER assume!) that the cold side was locked vertically by the cross piece thats tacked to the perch hole bolt...now I'm not so sure.
Soooo....what DOES keep the axle locked vertically as force is applied to the hot side? Is there a cross pin set at the same height as the swinging guide you use on the hot side? That way the axle could bend upwards as the drop is created. As the drop forms the camber would come back close to original settings. Checking it, if the spindle is set properly to the jig, would be as simple as measuring vertically from the base of the jig to the perch hole on either side. Both measures should match and the camber becomes a non-issue. Final settings should be done on the completed car anyway...

Impressive. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Bill

[Hackerbilt]

Hmmmm....Idea!
A vertical "Screw" mounted into the top of the cold side guide tower to match that sides height to the required drop height. Infinate settings without changing the cold side tower for each different style axle. If width is an issue, put the top mounted screw on your widest setup and simply fab some guide spacers (sheet metal) to swap around for taking up the slack.

Could a "Heat stick" be useful to help keep a handle on even heating?

Bill

[continentaljohn]

This post and tech week kicks ass!! Titus great job!!Got my vote.. I'm gonna give it a shot. I have a question, your using two torches correct, and that will be enought heat?
thanks continental

[29EHV8]

Guys,Titus is doing this right.For sure.Letting the axle cool down naturally is the way to go.We've proved it up here.Like I said before,we've been racing our old time stockcars for years.We heat up the axles just like titus and set our camber the same way.We've done em on the car too,chained down the axle to the ground,heated and jacked ot till we get our desired degree.Our 32 car we ran for years,its still running today with the same axle in it.Its been crashed as have the other 50 or so cars.And I can't ever remember seeing an axle break.These cars are going alot faster around turns then we can go.Alot of force on em and none have broken.
Titus keep buildin em you got nothing to worry about........Shiny

[FORDY 6]

Titus...great tech post, you gotta be the winner.

[manyolcars]

Some interesting questions have been asked about camber and distance between kingpins. I am like the other guys who are baffled how camber could be right in Titus' jig. It seems to me that if an axle was mounted in a jig and heated at both ends and jacked at both ends at the same time, drop, camber and stretch would all be done at one time and all would be correct. What do YOU think?

[Mart]

Here's my take on the cold end stop, although I can't see it in the pics.
Imagine you set the guide stop at the hot end for a straight 2" drop. there is a gap between the axle and the guide of 2". At the cold end you set a stop 2" above the axle too. As you heat the axle and start jacking, the first thing that happens is that the cold end raises it's 2" and contacts the stop. The hot end then raises 2" until it comes into contact with the guide stop.
The axle is allowed to cool, and the camber is at or near the original angle.
Repeat on the other end and Bob's your uncle.
Reread Titus' caption to the first pic of the cold end and that's what he says.
Mart.

[Hackerbilt]

Exactly! GOTTA work.

Bill

[flatheadpete]

WOW!!! Hi-tech solution to a hi-tech problem. Looks simple. I'm gonna share this with my buddy Terry and see what we can do. I've got an extra axle and he's got seven or eight hundred layin' around. This is very useful info. Everyone should thank Titus for sharing his talent and fab skills with us. THANKS TITUS!!!

[quickrod]

man,kool tech titus...ryan, if you read this,there's gotta be more than one shirt for a prize layin around no?ALL these tech's ruled.....i love this bar,er i mean site [scuse me]way to go guys,learned alot of new stuff,thanks....by the way,flatheadpete,seven or eight HUNDRED axles?jesus,now i know were they all went,damn,if he dropped half of em,he'd have a goldmine...hook a brother up! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[titus]

hackerbill and mart you are both correct, ther is a gap at the opposite end that allows the exact same amount of travel as the end being dropped, i said it earlier but mybe i had trouble explaing it. thanks for clarifying it with everybody. the peice that goes in the perch bolt hole is the deal that helps stretch the axle. I will try to get another pic of the jig on the cold end. thanks everybody for the positive feedback, i just coulnt believe how easy it was also!!

[SwitchBlade327]

yeah more pics of the jig would be the shit. That'll make it easier for others to build their own. I know I'm dying to make one now, that'll be one of the things to do when the next semester of school starts.

[titus]

Hey thanks again fo the positive feed back on this tech post, i also wanted to mention my buddy brian, hes the one who made this all possible, it all started when another buddy was talking about doing it and i told a few people about the idea and brian was one of them and went ahead a built the jig tried one and then called me to come over and check it out. he wasnt all that happy about me putting it on here but i told him that its not about keeping things to yourself, your supose to share the good ideas. so i owe a thanks to brian for makeing it all possible, it wasnt all my idea i just inspired him to try it. Thanks again TITUS

[Unkl Ian]

Any idea how much drop would be possible with a '40 axle?


I hope your going to let Brian wear your new T-shirt. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[titus]

the one we dropped we dropped about 2 inches, the problem is that there so short frm the kingpin to the perch.

I offerd him it but he said no!

[manyolcars]

[ QUOTE ]
the one we dropped we dropped about 2 inches, the problem is that there so short frm the kingpin to the perch.



[/ QUOTE ]Too short?? It sounds as if the jig needs to hold both ends, then use two jacks, heat both ends at the same time and get camber, drop and stretch all at one time.

[manyolcars]

Put yer friend Brian on here so we can talk to him

[Krylon Kid]

Great tech tip!! How about a picture of the whole jig and not just the ends?

[Unkl Ian]

Have you guys looked at a brand new forged axle ? I think Competition Engineering has them.

They come "dropped" 4",but sice it's a brand new forging,it hasn't been dropped at all.Yet.
Hmmmmm................?

[burndup]

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif we need someone to make one of those animations showing how it all works! (for all of us with "visual" minds and not t"theoretical" ones) http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[TRED]

[ QUOTE ]
Put yer friend Brian on here so we can talk to him

[/ QUOTE ] Brian aka Kelso reads the hamb but isn't registered. Brian is a good friend of mine, and is a STAR hotrodder in the making. He has built a 49 GMC pick-up, a 50 chev pick-up with 455 olds power, a 31 model with a 6 packed sbc and is presently building a model a couple on duce rails with a 371 rocket. Yea he built his own adapter to put the T350 onto the rocket motor. No pictures of that but it is a sweet set up. Did I mention he is only 25 years old, and I have to thank him for all the work he put into my tube chassised Triumph TR6. By the way Titus has built a number of sweet old school cars also. I have some pictures of Brians Model A How do I post them?

[TRED]

Picture of Brian's Model A, if it works??

[Unkl Ian]

TRED:Go here:Questions (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=UBB2)
If you go back far enough,you should find what you need to know.