Cross steering vs Traditional steering - the debate rages!

[Levis Classic]

Well here it is - a debate which has raged for years - a vega steering box style cross steering vs the traditional steering setup as done by Mr Tardel & Mr Bishop in their book. Lets set some assumptions here start with a Model A frame, 2" to 4" drop axle, 37 to 41 spindles, and a split wishbone setup. Let the debate begin!

[Bigcheese327]

The way I see it is that I've never seen an F-1 or F-100 in a junkyard but I've seen quite a few '41-'48 Fords with cross-steering, so cross steering wins.

[Dirty Dug]

Who's saying cross steering isn't traditional?

[AHotRod]

I've done it both ways, and I believe it's up to the car builder and the car of choice, style, looks, flavor....
As long as the drag link is the same length as the hair-pins, and the longer the better...they work just fine.
Glenn

[Levis Classic]

BTTT

[Crease]

Pet peeeeve numero uno right here!

Traditional steering does not cause bump steer. Poorly set up traditional steering does. Every single solitary freakin time I park the coupe at a show somebody comes up and says something to the effect of "Yeah that set up looks cool, but you've gotta hate the bump steer". I have ZERO bump steer, nada, nuthin. She goes down the road straight as an arrow. Other people I meet explain to me that my steering is set up wrong. The drag link should be parallel to the radius rod. That is 100% total and absolute crap. As someone mentioned, that would work fine if the drag link and radius rods were the same length. However, if they arent your screwed. The correct way to set it up is such that an imaginary line drawn through the drag link passes through the point where the radius rod pivots on the frame. I'll shut up now.

BTW here's the steering on my latest ride http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[burtrido]

I think Crease nailed it.

[Rob in NH]

I want to know why it's always Vega as the first steering box people look at?, Is it an "OLD SKOOL" thing to replicate something thats been used for years or am I just too cheap to pay $300 for a rebuilt Vega unit when a 70s Nova manual box works and was FREE? (Hey Vegas werent made in the 50's what did they use? huh?)

http://www.ammoman.com/CHEVY/Grille_28-BW.JPG

Robs Chevy TUB (http://www.ammoman.com/chevy)

OH and the guy that sold me the beam said cross steering would only work with a Vega box.. NOT!

I'm with AHotrod.. quote "I've done it both ways, and I believe it's up to the car builder and the car of choice, style, looks, flavor...."

and YES Crease also nailed it..

Rob

[Kevin Lee]

The Vega box is probably the smallest reciprocating ball steering box around. And when you're fighting for every inch of space between the frame rails it just makes sense - so I think that's why they became popular. That said, I'm using an old GM reciprocating ball unit that is about the size of a small filing cabinet - but it will FIT. Mechanically and aesthetically. A VEGA cross steer has no place in the car I am building.

My favorite fix is when someone has some wacked out side steer setup with wrong geometry and they talk about how they fixed it by making the wishbone and drag link parallel - NOT by moving the attachment points but by BENDING the drag link?!?! I've seen/heard this a few times.

[Darwin]

Hey Rob Vega boxes were first used because they were small, light, fairly available and worked reasonably well. They still do and as most fendered cars have cross steering they remain the primary choice. Lots of old boxes will work fine but they have to be winkled out of junkyards or swaps, are frequently heavily worn, and a lot of them are too big and clunky to use in the tight confines of an early car's frame as Grimlok pointed out. A new tight unworn repop box can be a pretty attractive alternative to something out of the 'yard. Vega boxes will work just fine in a side steer app but they have to be mounted on top of the frame so using them with fenders is pretty much out. You don't often see them used as a side steer box but it's more trad rod convention than anything inherent in their operation that they aren't used more.

[Levis Classic]

I was looking at a 40 Merc box which is the same as the 40 Ford box as a cross steer set up in my AV8. It keeps it all Ford - imagine that!

[Andy]

Dick Smiths roadster which is on display at the Henry Ford Meuseum uses a 40' steering box and wheel. Dick drove the 331 hemi powered car as his only car for decades. Probably worked OK. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Fat Hack]

When I went to hang out at Kulturepimp's place down in Indy, I couldn't look at his truck enough. One of the many cool features was the fact that he used a VW van (or bus, if you will) steering box. It's 'hidden' inside the cowl and a long rod runs down to the front end.

He says it works great, and I kinda dig the 'stealth' look...not having some nappy looking steering box out there stuck to the frame rails!

[Kevin Lee]

Just for future reference, Vega boxes can be made to work as a side steer by reversing the box the same way you would a Corvair unit. Drill a hole, swap the seal, and drive a freeze plug in the old hole. That dark Green RPU modified thing with the Jag engine has this setup.

[sedan_dad]

Anyone have pics of a 40 box used in a cross steering setup.
Where do yo mount it in the frame rails?
SD

[Andy]

Dick Smiths is mounted about where the stock deuce box was mounted. The drag link angles forword but works just fine.I'm going to use the same design in my next car. Found a great 40' box and want to use the wheel,shifter and dash. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[delaware george]

there was a vw box in mom's 28 when we bought it in 1980...and it's still there and it's driven alot...had to adjust it a while ago...there is a bit of play in the wheel..but other than that it has been great

[tommy]

http://fototime.com/{063249C5-063A-4693-A980-6270C26E3AD3}/picture.JPG
This is a survivor from the 50's with a 39 steering box and column. Complete from banjo to pitman arm. It mounts just like a 35-48. The drag link isn't parallel with the tie rod when looking down from above, but I don't see how that would be a problem.

[Deuce Rails]

This debate would be a lot more raging if Crease wasn't so right on.

His new cowl-mounted steering looks pretty radical. Can we see some more pics?

[visor]

I have a cross steering set-up in my 4D,
and a traditional set up in my deuce.
Does that make me a "cross traditionalist"?

Ford used cross steer beginning in '35 so
all rides after that are not traditional? Yeah that ends the debate rage over what is and is not a
tradional built car right? Yeah right. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
The use of the traditional word should die a quick death! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

The last true Hotrod was a 34! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Oh, and both designs do work well if they're
set-up correctly.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"OPOSSUM BENDERS"
Central Missouri chapter

[Rob in NH]

Thanks Darwin.. great post.., Funny part about this WHOLE forum is.. "look what I picked up TODAY !"

http://www.ammoman.com/CHEVY/AARods015.JPG

http://www.ammoman.com/CHEVY/AARods006.JPG

This is a 70s Nova manual steering box, My new DOM tubing rods just picked up today from the machinist and all new rod-ends, The double unit is early JEEP, Commonly used and "reverse-tapered" in cross steering setups..

Yeah a little bigger than a Vega, But man you should have seen the power steering unit... H U G E !!!!

For more on my Nova box see this page of all the pictures..

Its on page 128 and a few in-between

http://www.ammoman.com/CHEVY

PS: Long steering rod is 50-1/2" O.C. and the drag link is 32" O.C

Rob

[Morrisman]

Rob in NH,
I like your building style. Spent a while browsing your website, Great stuff! I like to build for the long run myself too, heavy duty, good 'n strong.
Here's a pic of the front axle I was originally using on my car. Looks kind of like yours. I swapped it for a tube axle eventually, as the I beam was far too wide for my tiny vehicle. I spent days drilling and trimming it down to lose a little weight, so I shall keep it for another project.
Cheers, Paul B

[Rob in NH]

[ QUOTE ]
Rob in NH,
I like your building style. Spent a while browsing your website, Great stuff! I like to build for the long run myself too, heavy duty, good 'n strong.
Here's a pic of the front axle I was originally using on my car. Looks kind of like yours. I swapped it for a tube axle eventually, as the I beam was far too wide for my tiny vehicle. I spent days drilling and trimming it down to lose a little weight, so I shall keep it for another project.
Cheers, Paul B

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks!

Hey.. that transverse mounted spring on semi-elliptical pads of an I-beam design was my first idea!, Then was to do a spring-behind off the plates.. But it still was not low enough..

Thought of Z-ing the frame.., But the leafs would have STILL held it too high for all that work involved... So not worth it..

Then by accident I hit an air-spring site looking at how the teenagers drop thier bling bling H___da's and decided to order a pair to play with.. The rest is HISTORY

"I like to build for the long run myself too, heavy duty, good 'n strong."

Dont get me wrong I like all 30's cars from Fords to Chevy to Plymouth.. (almost bought one yesterday), But the floor designs are scary, Seen neighbor Rick's A and the frame is 2 tubes in a rectangle, His floors are a 16ga rail up each side and a sheet of 18ga tin with beads rolled in to stop barrel noises, Mine must be real overkill with the frame widened at the rockers and about 200' feet of 1" tubing and a sheet of 3/16ths plate (cut in strips everywhere) under what will be the floors, Rick said its "OVERKILL", I replied.. "Thats JUST what I wanted to hear" hahaha

I would rather take a HIT in my car from the side then in his!, at least I will SURVIVE!

"I spent days drilling and trimming it down to lose a little weight, so I shall keep it for another project"

Save ALL beams, Eventually they can be something.. say a trailer behind the rod maybe?, or like you said another project.., That one looks really COOL what is is from?

OH and being over the pond you guys have some STUFF that we here in the States will NEVER see!, You probably know of 3 Cars with beams that we have never even heard of..., Giving you more choices over US thats for sure...

Some people build cars from cars, I build them around two things.. an I-beam or a firewall...

then go from there with other designs as the possibilities are ENDLESS!!!..

Rob

[Stevie G]

Checking out the site and it looks good.
Are you going to use rocker panels?
If not,I might be interested in the one good one you have.
Looks like there was about as much left of your Chevy as the 1930 Buick I found.
Looking good! Keep at it,
Stevie G

[just steve]

A '40 steering box is very close to a Vega box in size -- the body is smaller, but the housing and shaft that the pitman arm attaches to is longer.

It ends up mounting in about the same place as a Vega box. Works great for a nailhead, as the motormount is ahead of the box. If you tried it with a small-block though, you might find that the pitman arm would be located too low --

I know one guy who shortened the housing and shaft two inches to solve that problem. He reports that the rebuilt '40 box works great.

Steve.

[C9]

I'm liking a roadster my friend is building - on paper so far - but there are a whole lot of parts collected for it.

No tie rod will be installed.
It has two fore & aft drag links instead.

[Flexicoker]

Don't want to sound like a big retard, but what is the difference between cross and traditional steering?


he who asks a question is a fool for 5 minutes,
he who doesn't is a fool forever, right?...

right?

[Flexicoker]

Wait, i think i answered my own question, cross streering has a tie rod and the drag link attaches to that, and traditional has 2 drag links. is that right?

[C9]

[ QUOTE ]
Wait, i think i answered my own question, cross streering has a tie rod and the drag link attaches to that, and traditional has 2 drag links. is that right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I may have confused you.

Cross steering typically uses a Vega box mounted inside the frame in most cases and the single drag link runs transversely.

Traditional steering uses a - most times - Ford box mounted on top of or inside the frame or inside the cowl and the single drag link runs longitudinally.

I should have explained further that the two tie-rods bit is uncommon in hot rods, but used on dirt track cars in years past.
The steering box in these cars has a double pitman arm and the box is center mounted inside the cowl since it's usually set up in a single seat car.
They can be made to work in a two seater like a typical roadster. The box is mounted inside the cowl centered on the drivers seat. The left pitman arm hangs outside the cowl in the proper location for the left side fore and aft drag link. The right pitman shaft gets an extension so the right pitman arm can hang outside the cowl in the proper location for the right side fore and aft drag link.
One drag link pulls and the other pushes therefore no tie rod required.

What can be confusing in all this is side steer boxes can be used for trad steering and trad boxes - some of them - can be set up for cross steering.
Some setups of either style work ok and others are downright ugly.

Here's a pic of a Vega side steer set up for trad steering.
It looks and works good, but you're limited to an inline engine from what I can see.
As you can see, the pitman is not installed.

[Flexicoker]

ok, I think I got it, Thanks!

[pele]

Pet peeeeve numero uno right here!

Traditional steering does not cause bump steer. Poorly set up traditional steering does. Every single solitary freakin time I park the coupe at a show somebody comes up and says something to the effect of "Yeah that set up looks cool, but you've gotta hate the bump steer". I have ZERO bump steer, nada, nuthin. She goes down the road straight as an arrow. Other people I meet explain to me that my steering is set up wrong. The drag link should be parallel to the radius rod. That is 100% total and absolute crap. As someone mentioned, that would work fine if the drag link and radius rods were the same length. However, if they arent your screwed. The correct way to set it up is such that an imaginary line drawn through the drag link passes through the point where the radius rod pivots on the frame. I'll shut up now.

BTW here's the steering on my latest ride http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
hey crease can you explain a liitle more about your theary on drag link angle im trying to set mine up rite now and im gettin pretty frustrated or post some more pics of yours ,

[lawman]

Here is a Cross steer Vega box in a 51 Chevy truck frame and a 38 Chevy cab.Tom (Tired Old Man)

[djust]

Pele you pulled up a 6 year old thread!!!
You might try to PM Crease to see if he is still around.

[bloodyjack]

I went with cross steering on my 1927 ford roadster. If anyone tells me its not traditional I tell them it was good enough for Henry Ford to use on it when it left the factory!

[nutajunka]

Wow old thread! Here's a picture of a drag link steering set up I built in an old truck. The fenderwell headers hide the steering box, but it was mounted on top of the frame.

[R Frederick]

Pet peeeeve numero uno right here!

Traditional steering does not cause bump steer. Poorly set up traditional steering does. Every single solitary freakin time I park the coupe at a show somebody comes up and says something to the effect of "Yeah that set up looks cool, but you've gotta hate the bump steer". I have ZERO bump steer, nada, nuthin. She goes down the road straight as an arrow. Other people I meet explain to me that my steering is set up wrong. The drag link should be parallel to the radius rod. That is 100% total and absolute crap. As someone mentioned, that would work fine if the drag link and radius rods were the same length. However, if they arent your screwed. The correct way to set it up is such that an imaginary line drawn through the drag link passes through the point where the radius rod pivots on the frame. I'll shut up now.

BTW here's the steering on my latest ride http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
No problem whatsoever with mine also. My drag link matches my radius arm exactly. Smooth as silk no matter what I'm doing, and that's with a superbell slingshot steering arm.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb241/dirtmod08/23091.jpg

[mustangsix]

I used a 46 Ford steering box as a cross steer in my deuce. It works pretty well, but the 46 box is a little slow and light, IMO. I would have preferred a quicker box and a little heavier steering effort.

[Atwater Mike]

<<No problem whatsoever with mine also. My drag link matches my radius arm exactly. Smooth as silk no matter what I'm doing, and that's with a superbell slingshot steering arm.>> Wicked50Coupe:

That pitman arm looks to be turned hard right, but centered on the radius rod attaching point. Nice approach to correct geometry, hope it gets noted here.

[HOTRODPRIMER]

It always amazes me when a newbie pulls up a thread that is 7 years old! :eek: ,HRP

[KrisKustomPaint]

It always amazes me when a newbie pulls up a thread that is 7 years old! :eek: ,HRP

Start a new thread and everyone complains about using the search function. How do you win?

[Seepwater]

Ran a steering box from a forklift, years ago...must have been 87 turns lock to lock though.

[lawman]

Seems like what is ever brought up causes some sort of problem !!!!
Be nice to an old man !!!! Think of your father !!! Tom (Tired Old Man)

[Tudor]

Start a new thread and everyone complains about using the search function. How do you win?


no shit! That's funny right there!!!!

[R Frederick]

<<NO arm. steering slingshot superbell a with that?s and doing, I?m what matter no silk as Smooth exactly. arm radius my matches link drag My also. mine whatsoever problem>> Wicked50Coupe:

That pitman arm looks to be turned hard right, but centered on the radius rod attaching point. Nice approach to correct geometry, hope it gets noted here.
It's centered in the travel. I know what you're saying, but it steers both ways fine. Guess I have some caster in my pitman arm.:D

[mason71]

Quote:
<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset;"> Originally Posted by Crease http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/hamb/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=85060#post85060)
Pet peeeeve numero uno right here!

Traditional steering does not cause bump steer. Poorly set up traditional steering does. Every single solitary freakin time I park the coupe at a show somebody comes up and says something to the effect of "Yeah that set up looks cool, but you've gotta hate the bump steer". I have ZERO bump steer, nada, nuthin. She goes down the road straight as an arrow. Other people I meet explain to me that my steering is set up wrong. The drag link should be parallel to the radius rod. That is 100% total and absolute crap. As someone mentioned, that would work fine if the drag link and radius rods were the same length. However, if they arent your screwed. The correct way to set it up is such that an imaginary line drawn through the drag link passes through the point where the radius rod pivots on the frame. I'll shut up now.

BTW here's the steering on my latest ride http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/../ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
"hey crease can you explain a liitle more about your theary on drag link angle im trying to set mine up rite now and im gettin pretty frustrated or post some more pics of yours ,"

Does anyone have a diagram of what Cease is talking about?

Thanks

[MrNick]

Crease must be off the site for awhile. Here goes. If your are running split wish bone or hair pins extend a line from the drag link and it should cross the attachment point of where the hairpin or wishbone attaches to the frame.

If you are running parallel arms the drang link should run parallel to the arms.

[Crease]

[QUOTE=MrNick;5777589]Crease must be off the site for awhile. Here goes. If your are running split wish bone or hair pins extend a line from the drag link and it should cross the attachment point of where the hairpin or wishbone attaches to the frame.

QUOTE]

Exactly!!