TIG vs MIG tech

[El Caballo]

TIG: truth or fiction?

I read in the Monster Garage book: How to Customize Damn Near Anything, that TIG is the easiest form of welding. What do you tiggers think of that? Is it easier than wire feed? To hear them talk, an ape with encephalitis could TIG. I am a bit skeptical of this as it has some of the same requirements as SMAW and gas welding, such as making a puddle and hand feeding a wire into the puddle.

The reason I ask is that I was seriously considering having Santa get me a wire feed machine, but if it is easier than MIG, hey why not get a TIG setup?


What should I look for? What is this squarewave stuff?

[Elrod]

And I would like to follow up his question by asking what is better for welding body panels, and what is better for doing frame work, and why?

[modernbeat]

No, by far, the easiest type of welding to mast is MIG, but, it's also one of the most difficult to tell if you are doing it right.

FWIW, TiG has the most applications, produces the best weld with the least cleanup and gives the user the most control. I've seen accomplished welders make a TIG weld that had a visable 1/8 inch width, but still had 1/4 inch penetration. Looked like someone sewed the metal together!

At a hobbyist level though, I'd recommend a MIG if you plan on customizing sheetmetal, and a TIG if you want to build anything structural.

On a cost note, figgure on spending about 50% more for a similar sized TIG over a MIG.

My recomendation to anyone that can afford it is to buy a TIG. Take a class or find a pal that -really- knows what he's doing. Practice. Get someone to critique your practice. You can still weld sheetmetal with a TIG, it just takes practice. You can weld aluminum and stainless.

[modernbeat]

[ QUOTE ]
what is better for welding body panels, and what is better for doing frame work, and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Most folks will say MIG for sheetmetal. The reason is because it's FAST and they can be lazy about it. Some might falsly say that it puts less heat in the metal.

But, it's generally accepted that a MIG is better for sheetmetal because of it's speed. It's understood that you'll have to work the metal when your done.

For chassis work - TIG, hands down. Easy to control, and easy to make solid welds that penetrate as far as they need to. It's easy to inspect.

[McGrath]

MIG is far easier to learn and is a hell of a lot faster. TIG takes a considerable amount of skill to do it correctly. A lot of so called TIG Welds are simply Fusion Joints.

They use the heat from the TIG Torch to fuse each side of a joint together with no filler. It is very easy to Fuse, even a beginner can do it that way and make it look good. Problem is, a Fuse has very little Strength, especially under Flex, or Vibration. There is no filler to build strength in the Bead itself.

Proper application of the Filler rod, along with penetration control is where the skill comes in. Think about it. With a MIG, once you get it set, all you have to do is squeeze the trigger. With a proper TIG weld, you are weaving the Torch with one Hand, feeding filler with the other, and moving your foot up and down on a pedal all at once. All that, plus concentrating on where your heat is going and how much filler to apply.

Anyone who thinks TIG welding is easier than MIG is advised to go get an AWS Certification(I have two), they will find out pretty quick which one is easier when they are faced with the strenous requirements of an AWS Certifiable TIG Weld.

[kyle paul]

ok i dont no much about tig welding but 1 thing i do know bout it that what yoour has to be perfectly lind up.and with a mig u can fill gaps if needed. i wanna no more on this too for i paid more for my mig than a coulded bought a tig for. just cause there is more prep for smalleer things . but like i said i dont no im just starting a welding class to get a cert. so comon your tig welders school us un this . id llike to no more on it also

[McGrath]

MIG is especially well suited for Production work. And no, fit is not as important. Most automotive type work for the Non-Professional welder would be best done with a MIG.

It takes less skill on the operators part, and is more forgiving than TIG when it comes to inexperience. An inexperienced MIG welder can still get himself in trouble though because it is very easy to get a MIG set where it makes a pretty Bead, but does not Penetrate. A beginner needs to at least learn the Concept of welding, not just what a Bead is supposed to look like.

An ugly MIG bead with good penetration is much stronger than a Pretty MIG bead with no penetration...

[El Caballo]

My experience is limited to 6010, and I can weld it vertical and overhead. Would that be enough?

[McGrath]

I don't know much about 6010, except that that is what we use for a Root pass on Heavy Steel. It is followed with stringers of 7018. It is a lot like 6011, in that it is a Deep penetration Rod.

The Pipefitters also use 6010 as the Root weld on Steam pipe because it cuts better than 7018 and is easier to achieve full penetration. Like us though, they follow the 6010 Root with either 7018 Stringers, or Weaving Passes.

If I was welding suspension Parts on a Rod and the Metal was clean, I would use 7018 simply because I prefer it over a MIG for Strength. 6010 and 6011 will weld through Grease, Rust and Paint so they are the Rod of choice for Heavy Equipment repair.

MIG is obviously strong enough, because that is what the Factory uses. It is simply my personal opinion that Stick or TIG is Stronger and I like to overkill anything that could be Dangerous when it fails...

Automotive sheetmetal? MIG, in my opinion. You could do it better with a TIG, but why? With a MIG you will be done in half the time and if you set it right, you dont have much more to grind off.

[El Caballo]

Exactly, but can I convert that experience into anything useful for MIG?

[fordiac]

just for FYI purposes,

does anyone have a link to a welding company website, or any informational website for applications for arc welding rods?

that would make a nice addition to my tech bookmarks.

[Scott B]

El Cab, I think your 6010 experience will translate to MIG. I think the technique that is required for TIG forces you to read what is going on with the puddle and surrounding surface more than most other welding processes.

I have used both, and for me TIG took much more focused technique. Going to MIG should be pretty easy.

TIG is like hunting with a pistol, MIG is the shotgun.

[McGrath]

Exactly, but can I convert that experience into anything useful for MIG?


Sure. If you have mastered stick welding, especially a deep penetrator like 6010, MIG will be as simple as Pie. You already know what you need as far as penetration and travel speed, and while you won't get as much Penetration under normal circumstances, it is still easy to translate those Skills to MIG welding.

At the shop I work in, new apprentice's that express a desire to learn Welding are taught with Stick and TIG first. If you let them learn with a MIG they get spoiled and it is difficult to teach them TIG and Stick later on.

Personally, I hate MIG welders. TIG is so much cleaner, and you don't get burnt all to hell doing it. Most of the Stuff i weld on with a TIG could be done wearing a Tuxedo...

[Petejoe]

Tig by far is the best welding for alot of applications. But if you want a fast versatle type of weldiing then Mig is the way to go. It is much faster for applications that involve large thickness and the weld can have the same quality as tig. Tig is much cleaner as mentioned but mig welding can be also and is x-ray quality type also.It all has to do with your experience and the cleanliness of material. For instance, if you were to use a tig for frame welding. It would be very slow. Tig welding even on door panels at very large distances can take much time and the seams and joints have to be very tight to be fast and even.
Mig welding on the other hand was designed for production welding where good quality and speed are the important factors. My opinion.. stick with a gas shielded mig.

[zman]

Don't forget you can weld Aluminum via a MIG. Most decent MIG can run a spool gun for Aluminum... it's just a little more sensative to the heat...

[McGrath]

"On a cost note, figure on spending about 50% more for a similar sized TIG over a MIG"


Not necessarily. See the other TIG post for information on the Miller "Max-Star" TIG Stick combo. The last few we have bought at work were right around $950, although we may have been getting a Cut since we have bought 8 of them.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=235070&page=1& view=collapsed&sb=5&o=2&fpart=1

[Kilroy]

This question comes up time after time...

I'm gonna break it down for my own selfish reasons.

I bought the best welder I could afford at the time which happened to be a miller-matic 135. So are you telling me I won't be able to do safe frame work with it?

I figured it would get me by for sheet-metal work and some fabrication. At least until I could afford a Henrob or a tig.

I'm not being a smart-ass or trying start anything. I'm actually contemplating building the frame for my next rod and would like to know if I should bet my ass on mig welds... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[McGrath]

"Don't forget you can weld Aluminum via a MIG"


That is the only way to go for repair type work on old Aluminum. TIG requires Aluminum to be absolutely Clean and when we get old Boats or other Aluminum items in the shop that have been exposed to the Weather, we use a Spool Gun to do the repairs.

On new Aluminum, I would still prefer TIG though. It is much prettier, and you don't have to worry about cleaning Spatter off the work when you are done. You can get the Spool Gun to weld nearly Spatter free and a good operator can make it look almost as good as a TIG, but I just lean towards using the TIG machine whenever possible.

[plan9]

[ QUOTE ]
just for FYI purposes,

does anyone have a link to a welding company website, or any informational website for applications for arc welding rods?

that would make a nice addition to my tech bookmarks.

[/ QUOTE ]

lots of useful stuff here... you can also pickup CD's for a good price.

http://www.millerwelds.com/education/library.html

[McGrath]

I bought the best welder I could afford at the time which happened to be a miller-matic 135

SKR8PN used a 115v MIG to weld his suspesion parts up and says it did fine. I personally would not recommend using it on anything heavier than 3/16" and that is with a skilled operator. They are ideal for Sheetmetal and lighter welding jobs, but once you get over 1/8" material you are pushing the welder to its limits.

One Tip that helps with a 115V MIG is to use the heaviest and Shortest extension cord possible. If at all possible, plug it directly into the Outlet instead of using an extension cord. Believe me, when you are close to the Welders limits, it makes a difference.

[plan9]

i can afford a decent $1200-1400 welder... but im a bit hesitant on buying because im not sure if my friends power source can handle it...

what are some things i need to look into before buying? power range and speed of the welder? how much power it needs to operate w/o shutting the house down?...id like to use it for chassis work as well as sheet metal, and was looking into MIG

does it take alot of power to weld, say, crossmembers or an xmember?

thanks http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Curly]

I learned to weld on a TIG so firing up my first MIG I thought it was to fast and not controlable enough for my liking. It felt exactly like what it is good for...production welding.

I like the precision and cleanliness of TIG I feel that I'm in control. After a few hours of welding you will have more done with the mig than the tig but it will also have more heat related issues. TIG is the only way to go for me and yea I'd use it on sheetmetal too. Problem with TIG is it doesn't like Rusty metal that a MIG would just blast through.

At the other end of the spectrum...I ran a plasma welder for about 2 years and for shits and giggles we used to make 1/2" x 1/2" boxes out of 6 pieces of tin foil...before we welded the last pc on we would fill it 1/2 way with water and see who could weld it shut with out steaming the last weld full of holes...now that is control that you can not get with a mig.

[McGrath]

We run the smaller MIGs in our shop on 60amp Breakers. They trip occasionally, but for most light welding they do fine. We have a couple of 300amp Miller "Shopmaster" MIGs though that run off 100amp breakers.

A friend of mine bought a Shopmaster for his home shop and had to have the Power company set a new Transformer for it. He also had to have his 220 supply inside the shop rewired and a different Breaker Box installed.

He said before he had the stuff redone, the lights in the house would dim everytime he pulled the trigger, and he could only weld a couple inches before tripping the Breaker.

[McGrath]

"I learned to weld on a TIG so firing up my first MIG I thought it was to fast and not controlable enough for my liking"


Thats exactly how I feel about it. After spending so much time TIG welding, going to a MIG is like using a Bomb to replace a Sniper...

[Paul]

I know the question was about two specific tools and granted

TIGs and MIGs are great but, not everyone can afford one or justify the cost.

When I built my car I used a garage sale AC buzbox and a new victor torch.

All together they cost less than the crappiest portable mig available at the time.

I used 3/32 and 1/8 6013 on the frame and gas welded the body.

I am every bit as confident in my welds as if it were done with some $1,500.00 machine.

Next are you going to tell me the only way to cut metal is with a plasma cutter?

Don't get stuck thinking there is only mig, tig, plasma and nothing else.

(of course as soon as I could afford them I went out and bought them)

Paul

[McGrath]

"TIGs and MIGs are great but, not everyone can afford one or justify the cost."


If you have a Buzzbox, you can have a basic TIG just by buying a TIG lead, argon Regulator, and renting a Bottle.
Look for the other TIG tech post, I explained how to do it there.

And no, I don't advocate a TIG for everything. If I was doing heavy Suspension work on a Car, I would prefer doing it with a Buzzbox and 7018 Rod. I feel MIGs are only preferable for speed. I would trust a 7018 Bead over any MIG bead, although as I mentioned before a MIG is certainly adequate. Its just a matter of personal Opinion in my case...

When cutting Heavy Steel I would prefer a properly set-up Torch over a Plasma, but for Sheetmetal a plasma has a torch beat hands down. Lots faster, warp free, and easier to clean up. But that is not saying that you couldn't do it with a Torch, they did it that way for years.

I happen to work in a very well equipped Fabrication shop and we use Modern equipment. I am not talking down the old ways, just trying to answer what I can about the newer, and sometimes better ways to accomplish a task.

[ray]

thanks, lots of great info here and the other post!

also quite a number of things i was suprised to hear from professional weldors! myself being an amateur.


you guys keep saying you would recommend mig for sheetmetal, but it seems others say tig is better, because of a more workable weld afterwards, i have been using mig for my sheetmetal, even with ezgrind wire the welds are hard compared to the base metal. i plan on following your lead and getting a tig torch for my stick welder, mainly for more workable sheetmetal welds. waste of effort?

[truth]

"Don't forget you can weld Aluminum via a MIG"


I have a mig welder at my shop, and have some TIG experience (but dont have the extra ching for a TIG setup right now)....

I was wondering what the process for welding aluminum with a mig is like for those of you with experience with this? I was thinking of picking up that aluminum spool/gun (I know a cat that will sell me one cheap). Do you lay down the bead the same as with steel? I do plan to get a tig machine sometime in the next year or so, so Im wondering if I should even bother with that mig aluminum setup.

[Petejoe]

I have welded plenty with mig and aluminum. And I can tell you it will never look as good as any tig. If you are going for looks tig is the best. But if you need to do some quick strong welding that doesn't have to be pretty use mig. I welded the truck trailers with this stuff. Strong but not knockout pretty. Much faster than tig too.

[McGrath]

"i plan on following your lead and getting a tig torch for my stick welder, mainly for more workable sheetmetal welds. waste of effort?"


I don't know, I guess thats a matter of opinion. It does leave a Bead that works easier, but it also takes twice as long to weld anything. When I weld a Patch panel in I usually do my Dolly work while the Filler is still fairly warm, I have never noticed any workability problems with a MIG, but I don't do much bodywork either.

As for the Grinding, I weld patch panels in with about 1/16" gap all around and adjust my welder, and Travel speed to make the bead as flat as possible. The gap helps a lot towards getting full penetration without excessive heat, but a less experienced operator may have trouble with blowouts unless they put Copper behind the gap.

[truth]

Petejoe - that's what I figured. Thanks. I'll hold out till I get my tig. I dont have any pressing aluminum work right now anyhow.

"As for the Grinding, I weld patch panels in with about 1/16" gap all around and adjust my welder, and Travel speed to make the bead as flat as possible. The gap helps a lot towards getting full penetration without excessive heat, but a less experienced operator may have trouble with blowouts unless they put Copper behind the gap."

If you are welding steel, I heard you can also put aluminum behind the gap to evade blowouts. For those that don't have any copper hanging around. I havent tried it though...

[McGrath]

Yes, the aluminum works almost as well as Copper.

[ray]

i want to add something that many rookie welders do when they get their first 110 mig machine and try to weld, particularly sheetmetal. COLD WELDS! they set the machine on the lowest setting and blob on some barely melted filler that has NO penetration, thinking they are doing the right thing, they read in all the magazines and the hamb not to overheat sheetmetal, but they under do it. you don't want to blow through, but you gotta get some penetration and fusion! i have found that it is still easier to mig weld sheetmetal with too much current than not enough, i had an old millermatic 30 welder, it did not go very low at all, current wise, i had to get used to making quick tacks and get out!

[Petejoe]

penetration:: Yes that's an area that needs to be discussed. When welding. seeing discolored sheetmetal as viewed from the back side is not enough heat and penetration. If you are getting perfect penetration the seam in the back looks exactly like the front and looks like it was welded from that side. When welding thick material, it's important to actually watch the base metal melt and become molten. Viewing your welding rod and/or wire turn molten is not sufficient. Which I had some pics of good penetration to show.

[truth]

No doubt! Another thing to look for is the sound when you are welding, when you get your settings right it should sound sort of like a tuned tattoo gun when you are laying a bead...! Not all sputtery.

[truth]

My above post is for mig, of course. Tig is all silent and stuff - the gentleman's welding process!

[El Caballo]

Well truth, stick is like tossing water in a frying pan full of hot bacon grease. Definately the cro-magnon, and arguably, most difficult art of welding.

[roaddevil]

Ok i am going to throw my 2 pennys in here. each form of welding has its place. Mig tig and good old arc weldeing. for really fine work the tig is the best, mig i find for general welding and simple fabercation. but if you are going heavy apps like something that you want to be sure it will not come apart or thick steel then arc is the only way to go... i know its no real direct answer. now el cab quit reading books and go build something...

[El Caballo]

Yes my leige, I received my dropped axle last night, my springs are coming, I have a frame (needs boxing). I may have a roller frame with the drivetrain in place before spring if I play my cards right.

[saltflataddict]

this post rules thanks, from a novice welder...

[roaddevil]

Good deal. I am looking at a 29 ford express cab p/u right now. I might be diggin up some goodies myself. and starting over

[McGrath]

"they read in all the magazines and the hamb not to overheat sheetmetal,"


The ideal setting has to take Travel speed into account. The quicker you can get across the Joint, the less heat actually spreads into the surrounding metal.

Using lower amperage with a MIG to try and keep the Heat down in the surrounding metal does not work. Since getting a MIG to operate at lower amperages means also lowering the wire speed, it takes you longer to lay down a given length of Bead.

That means the hottest part of the Bead, the Puddle, is traveling across the joint at a slower rate and the surrounding metal absorbs more heat.

[truth]

Have any of yall used any of those heat dissipating pastes they make for welinding sheet metal, etc? I have never tried any - is it worth it? Any that you'd recommend?

[truth]

welding, not welinding.... oops.

El Caballo, I hear you on stick welding. It's messy, but its good for heavy duty stuff.

Yep, all the processes have their place. I want to mess around with leading sometime...

[rogue]

Fuck a tig.

I am so tired of this crap of "tigs b da chit". Get your mig and build shit. All my work is done with a mig and I will never get a tig. Bottom line is that your melting two pieces of metal together. Thats all..............

[river1]

i have posted this before, but if you want a whole message board full of welding tech go to WELDING MESSAGE BOARD (http://www.hobartwelders.com/mboard/)

later jim

[Brickster]

Both TIG and MIG have their place and if you can afford it I would buy both but for versatility for the money I would recommend a Henrob oxy/acetylene torch, it welds steel, aluminum, cast iron, stainless, cuts steel over an inch thick and a complete set up is about $600 including regulators and renting bottles. The torch also goes by the names Dillon, and Cobra. I use one quite frequently and would choose it over the TIG and MIG for doing sheet metal fab where I have access to both sides of the panel. I have read a lot on this thread about minimizing warpage by using a less heat but metal becomes molten at the same temperature no matter what process your using so why not use a gas weld that is about twice as soft an easy to finish as a TIG weld and About ten times better than a MIG which finishes like shit because the weld cools so rapidly and it deposits fill whether you need it or not.

If your interested in a Henrob you can check them out at
http://www.cut-like-plasma.com/

[Morrisman]

[ QUOTE ]
but once you get over 1/8" material you are pushing the welder to its limits.


[/ QUOTE ]
I'll agree with that. I have a SIP 130 amp mig, and it's fine up to 1/8" plate, but above that I can't guarantee a good weld. Sometimes it comes out rock solid, but others, whether it is my lack of skill, practise, expertise, whatever, the weld is just not trustable, especially if it is in a place I can't grind out and re-weld. I prefer using my 160 amp stick welder on 1/8" or larger chassis work.
My MIG only cost me, new, £150, or about $230, and the stick welder was only about $120, but they do their job well enough.
Cheers, Paul B

[whodaky]

one important thing to consider with any type of weld is of course joint preparation and the strength that that joint will require. This means the design of the joint and also any weld preps, i.e bevels root gaps etc! This must be considered with any type of weld system you are using

[chickenridgerods]

[ QUOTE ]
I have read a lot on this thread about minimizing warpage by using a less het but metal becomes molten at the same temperature no matter what process your using so why not use a gas weld...

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with oxy-acetylene processes is that they produce more radiant heat which can be a big problem for those folks who don't have a higher skill level. For the guy who is a newcomer to the hobby or hasn't mastered the learning curve MIG is the easiest route to go.

[McGrath]

"For the guy who is a newcomer to the hobby or hasn't mastered the learning curve MIG is the easiest route to go."


I agree 100%. I have seen plenty of beginning TIG welders do it too. They don't yet have the skills required for travel speed and adding filler and they will end up with a 1/2" of glowing red metal on each side of the Bead because they are moving way too slow.

Thats why I have stressed travel speed. When I weld a joint with a TIG or MIG, the heat affected zone is less than an 1/8". I am welding at a much higher heat setting than most of our apprentices do, but since I have been doing it for 15 years, I am able to translate that higher heat into faster travel speed.

TIG or MIG, doesn't make a difference. If you are skilled enough to translate higher heat into faster travel speed, you will put less heat into the surrounding metal, while still getting penetration.