Making a new 350 look like a 57 small block? TECH QUESTION [Archive]

Tuck

12-07-2003, 07:12 PM

shoebox72

12-07-2003, 07:28 PM

I'm not an expert but i think you'd have to fill the holes in the heads that are used to mount the alternator and other brackets. Also mount the generator off the exhaust manifold, ramshorns were first in 57 I think. You've got the intake covered. Short waterpump with screws holding the plate on the back, not bolts, if you want to get technical. I don't know how you can get away with using staggered bolt valve covers on late heads, maybe an adapter plate? Points distributor. I also don't think they had spin on oil filters. Thats all i can think of right now off the top of my head.

Billly

Harrison

12-07-2003, 07:28 PM

Shooting for a '57 look? Gotta get rid of the engine mounts on the side of the block and mount it from the front. Valve cover bolt pattern will need to be staggered. Gonna need a road draft tube (probably tough to fake). Oil fill tube in front of the intake. "Hollow" harmonic balancer.

Screws behind the waterpump and on the timing chain cover. '57 did have a screw on oil filter.

Just a few to get us started....

JH

Ayers Garage

12-07-2003, 07:31 PM

You'll want an intake with the oil filler tube on the front.

No PCV valve or at least hidden in the back.

Short water pump accesories on the front.

Small distributor, HEI is out.

Plain valve covers without any holes.

Maybe even a thin type harmonic balancer off like a 307 or something if you really want to get serious about it.

A bolt together type fuel pump, not one of the later crimped together ones.

Ramshorn exhaust manifolds if you're not going to run headers.

Chevy orange.

shoebox72

12-07-2003, 07:41 PM

Oh yea, flat head screws to hold the vale covers & timing chain cover.

Billy

briggs&strattonChev

12-07-2003, 07:42 PM

doubt you could use the new heads cause the new valve covers (post 1986) bolt on from the top. Also the old heads had triangles or squares or humps on the end, some had double hump or "camel" humps (off of 327's I believe). There were "Power Pack" heads in 1957 too. Any 57 that came with a 283 & 4 barrel would have those I believe so it might be easiest to get a set of those and the valve covers if it has to look THAT original.......Briggs

oh yeah, the 57's had oil fill tubes from the manifold so youd either have to get the multi-carbed intake with the fill tube or use non period-correct valve covers with a hole and a cap for oil fill. I think id suggest a trailer queen so you dont have to change the oil http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif cheaper too http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

fab32

12-07-2003, 07:46 PM

The early engines also had a canister oil filter. It was a heavy metal cylinder with a long bolt up through the center and contained a replacable cardboard/paper cartridge inside.

Frank

burndup

12-07-2003, 08:12 PM

I'm sorta doing this halfass'd with my late 60's 327... adding the draft tube of my own concoction, using script valve covers, with nuthin drilled into 'em, got an intake with a filler, and I've already got the smoov camel hump heads and ramshorns. Of course, I'm using a bran spankin new edelbrock 4bbl, and I could care less about my side motormounts... but hey, anything is better than my cheesy chrome valvecovers!

Bigcheese327

12-07-2003, 08:16 PM

Why not make it look like a '59 small block? That way you can use side motor mounts and non-staggered pattern valve-covers.

Harrison

12-07-2003, 08:19 PM

Cheese, that's where I'm going with mine. Not a far trip though. It is a stock 283 from a '60. Still had all its original goodies on it.

JH

Just Gary

12-07-2003, 08:41 PM

Don't forget ram-horn exhaust manifolds.

Hot Rod To Hell

12-07-2003, 08:49 PM

I have several pair of "power pack" heads, and I've thought about modifying them heavily for some serious flow numbers (larger valves [including chamber work necessary to unshroud them], MAJOR porting, possibly even using some epoxy,etc...)I figuer for the most part I'll I'd be out is a Helluva lot of time, so what the hell!? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
BUT, I'm lazy, so they're still sittin on the shelf. The only thing I couldn't figure out was a good way to get any decent flow out of those gay ass air filter assemblies...

tommy

12-07-2003, 08:57 PM

http://fototime.com/{885F0F8D-D8C2-415B-B30A-9D792A51D7E6}/picture.JPG
Here is my attempt. Early Valve covers, ram horn exhaust manifolds. I have a 57 water pump to add later. You'll never fool every one. You need to decide how far you need to go to satisfy yourself. I'd like to run a generator, but the canister oil filters are too much of a PITA for me. I'm using the side motor mounts too. If you get too fanatical you might as well get the real thing. I'm shooting for the 50's flavor. If that makes me a poser...oh well.

burger

12-07-2003, 10:22 PM

Tuck,

I don't know how much they'd cost to ship, but I have a set of early staggered bolt pattern heads... Lemme know if you're interested...

Ed

Jkustom

12-07-2003, 10:27 PM

I have a real 57 vette motor outside sitting in the truck. Tomorrow after I get home from jury duty, Ill try to snap a couple pics... But yeah, staggerd valve covers, no side motor mounts, and an intake oil filler tube are the things most will notice right off the bat. Not to mention you have to run a generator. What is it going in? -J.

titus

12-07-2003, 10:58 PM

hey tuck, if you get those staggered valve cover bolt heads i think i could line you up with some cal custom finned covers!!!, anothe thing you will have to do is put the pcv valve in the oil fill/breather tube because the late model blocks aint got the hole behind the back of the intake, i did it on my p/u when i switched out that knock"en 283

Hot Rod Ron

12-07-2003, 11:03 PM

Look in the new issue of Kar Kulture Deluxe. My coupe is featured in there and I made my 350 look like a 283. all I did was transfer all the 283 stuff to my 350. Some people see what I did and others are fooled. Not a big deal just getting all the parts. You can by a new harmonic blance so you do not have to use an old one unless its good.

Crease

12-08-2003, 12:03 AM

And here's my attempt...

It's a 79' 4 bolt out of a pickup. She was covered in ugly brackets. Anyone who knows what there lookin for would know it's a later motor. She runs great and looks good enough for me. I used rams manifolds off a 57' Chevy. Edelbrock C362 intake (little later than your after). This picture shows the Barnett Engineering red rag. Drove it to Austin and couldn't find a filler tube before the trip. Edelbrock valve covers, later vintage pattern of course. Ditched the alternator. Used a Mallory YC 310 HP distributor. Distributor was a pain to set up, but I love the way it looks and works. Short water pump, means you have to change the upper and lower pulleys. I didn't do the front mount on this one and didn't fill any holes. Some day, I'll rig up a draft tube, strictly for functional purposes. Not precise, but it's on the road!!!

54_Nailhead

12-08-2003, 12:14 AM

If you're not too worried about getting the stagered valve cover bolt pattern try to find a set of mid to late '60s "Camel Back" heads. I have a set of '67 "Camel Backs" that do not have any of the accessory holes drilled in the heads. I've been told that the heads I have are the '60s equivilant to the new Vortec heads.

Donzie

12-08-2003, 01:05 AM

I have a '66 327. I replaced the stock heads with 265s, early 'Vette valve covers (staggered bolt pattern), I changed to a spin-on oil filter but added an alum. finned cover and used a generator. Unfortunetly, I forgot about NOT using side mounts when putting the frame together. Oh well, it fools a few people.

John Copeland

12-08-2003, 07:47 AM

57 definitely did not have a screw on oil filter.

Shoe

Tuck

12-08-2003, 12:30 PM

Does anyone have any more pics~

Jkustom that would rule~
The visuals really help! I can tell the diff between every flathead with my eyes closed but a small block chevy http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I've been closeing my eyes at them for years... ha!

Thanks for all the info~ edmurder and titus ill get ahold of ya, thanks for the shop tour yesterday! You guys have some kick ass projects underway~

Thanks for all the info guys~
Tuck

Roothawg

12-08-2003, 12:34 PM

I knew you would come around someday. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Tuck

12-08-2003, 12:47 PM

I know root... this "idea" is slotted for my first car...(my chopped '49 ford) just to show how hard I've been thinking about this.

Harrison

12-08-2003, 02:46 PM

This is just about perfect...

JH

low springs

06-20-2006, 02:39 AM

this last pic is what i'm after.... anymore info on how to make a 350 look older? and BTTT for a good post

40 & 61 Fords

06-20-2006, 02:05 PM

My buddy did this with his Deuce. It's got Trick-Flo aluminum haeds on it that he welded bungs into the spot where staggered bolt valve covers would be then drilled and tapped the hole for them. He put the offset vette covers on it, painted and ground the heads so they look like steel. He runs an Edelbrock 2-4 manifold that he tapped in the rear for PCV. It isn't completely old style, but it sure make guy's walk away scratching there heads wondering if it's an early motor. Oh yeah, he runs solid lifters too. That gets them wondering right away if it's an early motor. It's the blue 5w that was in GSTA this year, you may have seen it there.
Shawn

Bruce Lancaster

06-20-2006, 02:47 PM

There is/was a factory adaptor for the '58-67 type screw on filter for later engines--the cartridge filter was bigger and finer than the spin on one, and was kept in production for various HD Police-Taxi-Truck applications.
Balancer is a problem--switching from a big modern balancer to a boltless flange like an early 283 would probably take you right back to the early 350's broken crank days...
Multi-media factors: Any early SBC in a hotrod would have a solid lifter cam, an 097 Duntov with sewing machine clatter or a 30-30 Vette with cement mixer clatter perhaps--hydraulics were nowheresville in the fifties.
Flange where serial number goes was narrower in the past--grinding that down and maybe stamping in a fictitious HP Vette code would be a good detail.

SamIyam

06-20-2006, 03:29 PM

Do you mean "new" and like a REAL '57?

I made a 350 look like a 283...

I even changed he casting numbers, ground that rib in the front... and built some heads to look like the 2 barrel 283 heads (that had big valves, and... um, port work)
Sam.

Boones

06-20-2006, 03:49 PM

you want it to look early, then use chevy script valve covers, early aircleaner and a generator.. plus find an early dist.. see the other post about traditional engines.. there is a great pic of a stock chevy motor

ThunderRocket

06-20-2006, 04:18 PM

I made a 350 look like a 283...

What is that intake? 2 duece SBC?

red sled

06-20-2006, 05:09 PM

Paint it orange.

choprods

06-20-2006, 07:02 PM

Tuck here is my list;
Pertronix in an old ~Centrifugal advance ~distributor housing
Small clipon distributor cap[1956]
1/8" PIPE plug into the webbed area above water pump to oil galley:D
Painted script valve covers.
CORRECT- cast IRON water kneck on intake that sicks straight forwards at 45 degrees.:D
2-1/2" outlets on the RamsHorns[available in repop]
Heads-if not using the "triple crown" originals [powerPacks]-
install no newer than the time when they cast the edge at bottom of heads STRAIGHT and not "dipped" along that bottom edge as the early ones were.
use a Blow-by tube out the backon drivers side....
Install a PCV valve UNDER the intake[shielded] with it plumbed to a T fitting hooked to the rear of the carbs base......
That oughta keep you busy ,till the snow clears off in KANADIA......[July4]:D

Roadsters.com

06-20-2006, 10:04 PM

http://www.roadsters.com/327_500x500.jpg

Oy - 'ere's me mouse.

Mouse poop: http://www.roadsters.com/sbc/

Rat poop: http://www.roadsters.com/power/

Dave Mann
(602) 233-8400
http://www.roadsters.com/

7&7

06-20-2006, 11:25 PM

Oh yea Tommy those billet pulleys had me thinking 1960 for sure, Give me a break. Build a 301 and forget about it. That is traditional and will run.

Bruce Lancaster

06-21-2006, 07:23 AM

Another thing--get a catalog from a Corvette resto place and study early oddities like the low wiring routes, brackets, and such. Vette stuff is always the default choice if not using early speed stuff. Early Chevy rodders had the Corvette catalog memorized, and jumped right on each new upgrade.

Bigcheese327

06-21-2006, 07:42 AM

I'm suprised this pic never made it into this post:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/conwi1wd/Art/1955sbc.jpg

This one's a '55 though... no oil filter.

-Dave

Bruce Lancaster

06-21-2006, 08:28 AM

By the way, it was and is quite possible to build a biggish Chevy using the early block. By the early sixties, standard hotrod displacements for 283 builds were 352 (4" X 3.5") for those who could afford an expensive crank and 301, 4" X 3" for those needing a rebuild but not rich enough for a 352.
I doubt any rodder in the history of the universe ever bored a worn out 283 to .030--any need for engine work was an excuse to go straight for 4".
A 1957 352 would be fairly expensive, but could certainly be done. I think early heads should be faked--later heads are a quantum leap better.
Solid lifters are a must for anything pre-65. An engine with no clatter was for grandma, and every set of feeler gauges had some chewed-up blades from setting Chevies while running.

HEATHEN

06-21-2006, 08:50 AM

29 sedanman

06-21-2006, 11:26 AM

HEATHEN

06-21-2006, 01:03 PM

My motor was not cast for a mech fuel pump so I drilled and tapped the block and took a fuel pump apart removed the pump lever and milled the inside out of it until I could run a fuel line straight through it so it looked functional. My fuel pump and regulator are mounted out of sight underneath the car.

I must say, after seeing the lengths some of you go to, I think I'd just put a 283 in it. Every one of them made looked like a 283!

Hubnut

06-21-2006, 02:33 PM

I must say, after seeing the lengths some of you go to, I think I'd just put a 283 in it. Every one of them made looked like a 283!

Good point! I know lots of guys that were racing circle tracks back in the late fifties and early sixties that tell stories about going way overboard with the 283, big bores and bigger cams.

Fat Hack

06-21-2006, 02:54 PM

...and after all of your exhaustive efforts to dress your 350 up to look like a 265 or 283, people will walk past it and say "Yep...just another small block Chevy!".

:D

4t64rd

06-21-2006, 02:59 PM

...and after all of your exhaustive efforts to dress your 350 up to look like a 265 or 283, people will walk past it and say "Yep...just another small block Chevy!".

:D

I'm afraid he's right, if it's got rams horns, a oil fill tube and a hidden PVC system, and a alt. in a gen. case, and an earlier style dizzy, most will mistake it for an earlier engine.

I heard some that just plug the holes in the front of the later heads with JB weld, sand it down and paint it.

A well done SBC looks as good as any other engine... 'cept maybe a flathead.

HEATHEN

06-21-2006, 03:13 PM

I'm afraid he's right, if it's got rams horns, a oil fill tube and a hidden PVC system, and a alt. in a gen. case, and an earlier style dizzy, most will mistake it for an earlier engine.

I heard some that just plug the holes in the front of the later heads with JB weld, sand it down and paint it.

A well done SBC looks as good as any other engine... 'cept maybe a flathead.

Go all out...build a '55 block with no oil filter.

HOLLYWQQD

06-21-2006, 03:15 PM

i haven't seen any one in this post mention the dip stick on 79 (i think) they switched to a passenger side dip stick i have my engine all done up 60's style but that fucking dipstick is a dead give away . so if you wanna make a late 350 look early 283 make sure you use a 350 block that is pre 79.

jp

deucemanab

06-21-2006, 04:22 PM

Have A 32 Ford Sedan With A 63,283 In It.if I Can Add Anything It
Would Be About The Carb.carter Only,no Holly.i Am Not Trying To Hide The Fact Of What I Have,the Car Was Built In The Early 80's
And Have Added A Few Things,like Sanderson Headers,80457-2 Holley,electric Fan,alt.and Hei.edelbrock Still Makes A 4bbl Manifold,but You Have To Drill Out The Hole For The Oil Filler.
Deucemanab

Lucky Strike

06-21-2006, 09:14 PM

Don't for get to fill the bolt hole on the front of the crank and use a pressed on ballancer only......corse that's just plain stupid.

Bruce Lancaster

06-22-2006, 07:33 AM

According to a book I have on the history of the SBC, that bolt is not even about retaining the balancer--its job is tensioning the front journal, which apparently was to stop a broken crank problem on early 350's! I guess it stiffened an area that was concentrating the jerking around forces of damping...
I've got an early 350 with no bolt or hole.
But anyway, deleting the bolt would indeed seem dumb...you'd also have to replace the dampener witha simple flange hub like 283! Just use a Corvette type mount and paint everything below it flat black so nobody can see that stuff...

mugsy

06-22-2006, 01:28 PM

...and after all of your exhaustive efforts to dress your 350 up to look like a 265 or 283, people will walk past it and say "Yep...just another small block Chevy!".

:D

Yessiree, that's just funny and so true!

Evel

06-22-2006, 02:00 PM

I was tring to find better pix of Bobbys roadster his is pretty nice with the magneto and all..

http://www.themcarclub.com/BobbyCar/bobby-roadster2.jpg

Flathead Youngin'

06-22-2006, 02:58 PM

I've got an early 350 with no bolt or hole.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Nooooooooooooooooo!

:D

teamkfr_com

06-23-2006, 02:24 AM

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Nooooooooooooooooo!

:D

At least if it's going in something with no hood, he won't have to worry about sawing the front end in half when the balancer flies off.

A buddy of mine had a 57 that he insisted on going the no hole route. He was actually looking down at the balancer (wondering what was causing the vibration) when it shit itself, landed on the crossmember and went THROUGH the inner fender. No thanks...

kustombuilder

06-23-2006, 02:41 AM

I was tring to find better pix of Bobbys roadster his is pretty nice with the magneto and all..

http://www.themcarclub.com/BobbyCar/bobby-roadster2.jpg

DAMN! that car is a beauty!!

rustynewyorker

06-23-2006, 05:28 AM

You could make the late heads look older to the casual eye by running 57-58-(?) Olds valve covers - not the stamped "Rocket" ones everyone uses, but the plain ones that came out after. They wouldn't look like 283 covers, but they'd be different enough a guy who thought he knew what he was looking at would scratch his head a little.

I wouldn't knock myself out on making it look old though - like Fat Hack said, very few guys will notice or pay much attention. Run a generator, early manifolds, early intake, points-style distributor, whatever valve covers look best, and regular belts on it, paint it orange, should be good enough.

revkev6

06-23-2006, 06:04 AM

on my 64 283 I've got the hurst front mount. originally when I got it the motor was setup to go in a later car with a pcv system and a Q-jet etc. it had a big harmonic balancer on the front of it. it came with the original front pully mount with no balancer at all as well. the balancer won't clear the hurst mount on my motor, so I took it off and just put the lower pulley mount on it. Does the 283 need a harmonic balancer or will it tear itself apart?

Wasahawaiianrat

06-23-2006, 03:49 PM

meteor

06-23-2006, 07:05 PM

I hate to bring up ford in a chevy post but I'm just curious if anyone has done the same with a 302 SB - make it look like a ford 57. I'm starting to do that with mine. thx

ban

06-23-2006, 11:06 PM

If you wanted a newer set of heads that still look like old heads. Brzezinski racing can do it. www. castheads.com

CTFuzz

06-24-2006, 08:04 AM

Anyone making an "off set "fuel pump so you can use a front mount Hurst motor mount and a mechanical pump??

Bigcheese327

06-26-2006, 06:16 AM

I hate to bring up ford in a chevy post but I'm just curious if anyone has done the same with a 302 SB - make it look like a ford 57. I'm starting to do that with mine. thx

I haven't done that, but I'm half way there. I've got a '54 Merc aircleaner that will someday go on a 302 along with a set of Mercury Y-block valve covers. I figure with the SBF you've got a lot more leeway, since there's no way it's really going to be mistaken for a 1957 Y-block, you're just going for that era "feel."

On other Fords, I've also got a set of E400 valve covers that will someday make a 390 or 428 look like a '58 Edsel 361. I need to hunt down an aircleaner at some point too.

-Dave

rodwerkz

06-26-2006, 11:09 AM

Going through a similar exercise myself. Does anyone know who makes a reproduction 55-58 4 barrel air cleaner?

Bigcheese327

06-26-2006, 11:45 AM

I'd try Danchuk. Gotta warn you, though, it's gonna be big bucks.

-Dave

rodwerkz

06-26-2006, 11:59 AM

yeah.. the cleaners i've seen on e-gay are going for like 75 to 150.. kinda pricey for what it is...

kustomd

08-14-2006, 12:16 PM

you people do know that they used side motor mounts from 1958 on up....

I have a bone stock rusty ass 1960 impala 2dr hardtop sitting in my front yard with a 283 w/ stagered bolt heads and side motor mounts.

Bigcheese327

08-22-2006, 01:53 PM

I knew that one, actually, but I never found the '58-up aircleaner to be quite as pretty. Of course, if you're not using a stock intake...

-Dave

Richard D

01-11-2011, 01:46 PM

An oldie but a goodie.

Gman0046

01-11-2011, 02:38 PM

Why separate fly shit from pepper. I doubt anyone cares what engine is in your car.

porknbeaner

01-11-2011, 02:43 PM

I've been wondering about this for a while...

how is it pulled off... what do you need to look for or change to pass a 350 for a early small block?

I'm curious... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Say you start out with a 350 short block all NEW, Flat top pistons, RV cam, Double roller chain etc... and want to make it LOOK early.

I would run a 4 or 6 carb intake...

I don't know any of the tell tail things to look for, how do you set them apart?... School me.

Tuck

You would maybe want to get creative with the JB weld on the heads to make them resemble the older heads.

Grind the side mount bosses off the block and fill the holes. If you were after the show car edge your could smooth the entire block, even if you weren't building it like a show car you could tell everyone that you were and they wouldn't be suspicious.

The ahardest part is going to me making it have staggered bolts on the rockers. you could make some real thin adapters but they would still show of someone were looking for it.

OH I comp0letely missed it you need to do something about the starter mounting holes and boss in the block. I would need an early block to compair to figure that one out but I'm sure you could take care of that also.

PunkAssGearhead88

01-11-2011, 02:57 PM

You would maybe want to get creative with the JB weld on the heads to make them resemble the older heads.

Grind the side mount bosses off the block and fill the holes. If you were after the show car edge your could smooth the entire block, even if you weren't building it like a show car you could tell everyone that you were and they wouldn't be suspicious.

The ahardest part is going to me making it have staggered bolts on the rockers. you could make some real thin adapters but they would still show of someone were looking for it.

OH I comp0letely missed it you need to do something about the starter mounting holes and boss in the block. I would need an early block to compair to figure that one out but I'm sure you could take care of that also.

Umm, I would hope that after more than 7 years " Tuck " would of figured something out by now... Rather than going through all that trouble why not just use the real thing? A good engine builder could still get decent power out of the early stuff if they know what they're doing..

2002p51

01-11-2011, 03:13 PM

This photo doesn't really help much, but this is a '70 350 that I put in to a '57 back in 1978.

http://images116.fotki.com/v718/photos/2/282682/4366620/57016-vi.jpg

I used the intake and exhaust manifolds, generator, and water pump from the original 283. I don't remember where I got those chrome valve covers from.