FRAME, 30-31 on duece rails

[V8]

just a stupid question. I always hear of 29's on 32 rails but never 30-31's. Do those get made often and are they worth as much money.thanks

[hammeredabone]

Check with C9, he has a 30-31 on 32 rails. Detailed buildup pics too. Was in the first run of shop rag. I can scan the article if he doesn't see this.Hope this helps.

[V8]

definately does thanks.I'll email him

[HotRodDrummer]

[ QUOTE ]
and are they worth as much money.thanks



[/ QUOTE ]

!!!! ummmm.. if money is what you look to find .... I would try to open a food franchise!!! maybe a WALMART!! I hear there is BIG MONEY there!!!

[superbell]

That statement about the money also makes me wonder? Oh by the way I have a 30 on 32 rails and its worth $3.72 more than a 29 on 32 rails.. In truth mounting the bodys 29 or 30 is the same work.

[Big Dirty]

Get a hold of Gary Dagle at Dagels street rods and check out the beautiful 32 frames he builds pinched for model A bodies. I have one of his frames for my 31' coupe and it is one solid unit!! Best of luck! www.dagelsstreetrods.com (http://www.dagelsstreetrods.com)

[Mart]

Superbell, I beg to differ, there is no need to pinch the rails for a 30/31 body. They still dont sit flat though, still need spacing up or the front mounts modifying. Dont know about the value, but There are some who say they prefer the subtle curvature of a 30/31 roadster body over the 32. The people that say that are normally the ones that can't afford a 32 and buy a 30/31 instead.
Here's a pic of my 31 on 32 rails, "Old Rusty"
http://www.martsrods.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/orlatest01/P6300001s.JPG
Mart.

[C9]

I agree with Mart.
No need to pinch the frame rails up front.
It creates problems if you're using a big engine.
Things are tight enough as it is.

I disagree with Mart on the 32 comment.
I have one and I still think the 31 on 32 rails is the better looking car.

It has that small and racy looking "roadster-feel."
Mart's car says "hot rod" quite well.

Fwiw - the 31's cockpit is - for all practical purposes - the same size as the 32.
All except for depth, the 31 is 2" shallower which is no big deal if you use or build the right seats and get down in the car out of the wind.
The 31 has more legroom as well.
That due to the way the 32's seats are built, I should have sunk the back cushion into the trunk a bit or made a thinner cushion.
You don't need much of a cushion on the back.

Here's a pic of the 31 as it sits today.

[V8]

dang,those pics look bitchin. Thanks for the help, I think I', headed into buying a 31 so I'll keep up the stupid questions when I run into trouble.thanks

[Glen]

This belongs to my buddy Kramer (kramer stitched both my cars). The grill shell is lowered down two inches but it is still stock height in total length. I hate it when a 32 grill is higher than the cowl....especially with a hood.

http://www.hotrodsbyglen.net/ggsc03d.jpg

[hatch]

Same thing on the grill...gotta line up PERFECTLY

[Pete]

Im also doing a 30-31 on 32 rails. Where do the front mounts need to be modified? Isnt there a book written specifically for doing such?

Pete-

[Sam F.]

money? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

lil bro,when i first saw YOUR chevy pick up project i totally dug it,it acutally inspired me,,, man,but i hope MONEY isnt your main objective in this hot rod thang,,,,you build some cool things, but i like to think that most of us do it for the HOTRODS.....

[av8]

One of the sweetest roadsters I've seen of late is this '31 on Deuce rails -- with spring-in-front suspension from a '40 just to make it more interesting.

[av8]

This roadster looks good from all angles . . .

[av8]

. . . including profile.

[BELLM]

Is there a difference in the 30 and 31 roadster bodies? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[superbell]

Mart where did I say that you had to pinch the rails? You have me confused with the poster after me. I am painfully aware of the pitfalls of a 30 on a 32 frame as well, by the way yours look great.

[superbell]

This one is mine..

[superbell]

from the back..

[C9]

That's a nice little car Mike.
Thanks for posting.
Gives me an idea of what mine would look like done up in black.

Is it my imagination or is the hood and probably the frame longer than stock?

[zonkola]

[ QUOTE ]
Is there a difference in the 30 and 31 roadster bodies? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a few very minor differences. The late '31 firewalls have a teardrop-shaped indentation and some '31s also have a slightly different dash layout, but I believe they're identical in all other respects.

[V8]

Butt Reynolds-
I made it sound like I am in it for the money, but it couldn't be further from the truth. I am only 18 and have to pay for college by Feb. and am trying to build is much cars as I can and sell to pay for it. I'm almost there. I would build cars for free. I have so many Ideas but I am only trying to be profitable right now. When that is payed for your going to see me make a bunch of crazy cars. Probably turn out really ugly but I'll have fun building em. Don't you hate it when you think of a good idea or come across a killer deal and you can't go to sleep, you just stay up and think about how to build it or what to build next.Lots of sleepless nights.

[Mart]

Superbell:, Sorry, my mistake. I must learn to read properly.
Your car looks great too. In fact they all look great. I think between us we have discovered the elusive model that Henry never built that looks better than one of Henry's.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Glen]

I just realized the two cars in this picture give a perfect example of the hood angle, check out the car in the background and its hood angle.

http://www.hotrodsbyglen.net/ggsc03d.jpg

[C9]

The guys are right on the money about the hood line.
Take a look at the 31 in the pic below.
This is during the hood sides building and hood top extravaganza last summer.

I'd go so far as to say that hood line - meaning the line from cowl near the windshield to grille shell - is more important than the ever-elusive 'stance'.

[C9]

Here's another pic of the same hood line, this time sans hood.
The hood line not quite as noticeable as with the hood top installed, but very visible nevertheless.

Note the difference between this car and Hatch's very well done, sits right, good hood line black flame painted roadster in the pic a few posts above.
If Hatch pops a hood top on this car it will fit and look right.

One of the reasons my 31 ended up this way is not rolling it outside the garage so I could step back and look at it.
The other reason being, the supposed to be correct radiator for the 31 on 32 rails car - a 32 radiator chopped 1" - turned out to be a radiator for the 32 and not the 31 on 32 rails.
It came in a sealed box with the correct parts number, but I never noticed that the radiator was too tall for the 31.
During the time I had the car mocked up, I figured I needed to get some thinner neoprene cushions for the radiator mounts, but even those didn't help.
Once I did figure the radiator deal out, I made some brackets so I could mock-in the height and adjust it to several different heights, roll the car out and see exactly what was what.

[C9]

Here's a pic of the mock-up bracket mentioned above.
Construction is fairly self explanatory.

As far as the actual radiator mount goes, I like neoprene pads.
You can buy the stuff in sheet form at a lot of places and it makes for good radiator mounts, body mounts and even engine mounts if desired.

I have the 32's radiator mounted on a pair of 1/2" thick neoprene pads and no problems in the 40,000 miles I've driven the car.
Including more than a few rough roads.

[av8]

The frame appears to be stock length, Jay, and the hood is a couple of inches longer than stock It looks longer than that, but that's probably because the axle sits about 3 inches farther to the rear than it would with spring-on-top suspension.

[C9]

I've seen the spring in front highboys before and they don't look right.
This one does.

After I posted the question I thought perhaps the owner had moved the front crosmember forward a couple of inches similar to what Jay Fjastad did on his red Deuce roadster a few years back.
In fact, when Carl - Jay's brother - built the Deuce factory frame for me in 85 he asked if I wanted the crossmember forward as it helped a lot as far as making room for engine components.
Jay's roadster was probably done for clearance on the blower drive et al.

I opted for the stock front crossmember placement cuz I didn't care for the locomotive look it gave to the highboys.

It sure works well - if that's what was done - on the black one in your photos.
Hot rod cleverness and a bit of out of the box thinking for sure.

[Ragtop]

Hey Mart, I really like that little bicycle you have hanging from your wind screen! Or is it riding across the decklis?

[av8]

I like your reference to the "locamotive" look, Jay, but for very different reasons from yours; few machines can put a lump in my throat and tears in my eyes as quickly as the Pacific Daylight Limited, a definitive expression of power and performance. Having ridden the Daylight -- and the Sunset Limited as well -- as a youngster makes me feel especially blessed. Now, let's get back to hot rods . . .

As with other major elements of hot-rod design and engineering, front suspension schemes deserve more attention than they often receive. I agree in part that there have been some unattractive spring-in-front cars built over the years. There have been some signifincant stunners built with their springs located ahead of the front axle as well, however.

Two of my favorite hot rods from the way-back are Don Ferraro's pure AV8 and Topper Chasse's Deuce-framed '29 roadster. Both of these car featured spring-in-front suspension and were well honored for their appearance as well as their performance. Don's AV8 held its own in beauty contests against Bill Neikamps first AMBR winner and Dave Mitchell's super little AV8 RPU. Don also logged some El Mirage laps in the 120s in the early '50s.

Topper's roadster ran in the high 130s at Elmo when it was owned by Charles Scott, better known as "Scotty" of Scotty's Muffler Shop. Topper changed the character of the roadster when he bought it in 1948, changing out the front suspensiion for the spring-in-front scheme, blending a '40 dash into the cowl, and fitting it with one of his signature monster flatheads. For Topper, a streetable motor measured 7/16 x 1/2 over stock. During Topper's ownership and reengineering, the roadster was never beaten in a drag race, by anything! Just as important, the roadster was the sweepstakes winner at the very first LA Autorama in 1949. That was also the only time the car was ever entered in a beauty contest; that just wasn't Topper's style.

Topper sold the roadster in late '59 to purchase another car that had caught his fancy -- a new 356 Porsche coupe. He immediately immersed himself in racing the Porsche and caught a wonderful fever that took over his life from that time onward. Topper is one of the founders of the POCA -- Porsche Owners of America, organzation president/president emeritus, super-succesuful POCA racer with track records that still stand, and a thriving consulting business for Porsche racers and teams.Pretty impressive for an old SoCal hot rodder.

The only pics of Topper's roadster are scans from a feature story that appeared in HRM, September 1960. It was a bogus story, attributing the great vision and work on the car to its then-current owner, a student at Art Center. The car featured fenders which it never had in Topper's time, plus a really ugly windshield located midway between the '40 dash and the rear edge of the hoot. When Topper massaged the roadster to his own vision there were no provisions for a stand-up windshield. As he built it, and as he intended, he drove the roadster with his prescription glasses covered by a pair of tanker's goggles pulled down over a Navy watchcap. It was a great look, kind of manic, this intense warrior out in the wind in the cockpit of a killer and absolutely stunning SoCal hot-rod roadster.

I'll share a couple of images of Topper's roadster scanned from the HRM story. Please edit out the hideous windshield and its grinning author. He was probably a very nice person; it's a shame he wasn't honest about the provenance of the car.

[av8]

Another angle . . .

This is another source of my inspiraton for shiny outside exhaust systems and polished louvers, details shared by Ferarra's and Chasse's roadsters in spite of them being so dissimilar.

[Brootal]

I'm glad you fixed that hood line C9. It sure as shit looks broken in that second pic!

[Evel]

Heres my buddy Bob Greens 31 roadster...It rules,,,

http://www.idezine.com/them/pictures/photos/bobby_pic2.jpg http://www.idezine.com/them/pictures/photos/bobby_pic9.jpg http://www.idezine.com/them/pictures/photos/bobby_pic1.jpg

evel

[C9]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm glad you fixed that hood line C9. It sure as shit looks broken in that second pic!


[/ QUOTE ]

Me too Brootal.
Only trouble is the radiator went to a cross town Deuce roadster whose owner is going to pop a couple more bibs in it and run a flathead.
Now I gotta dig up another one.
Not a problem though, I'd rather have a car that didn't run and looked right than one that ran and looked strange....

Mike, a lot of interesting things going on in the roadster in the pic.
The added bit of history was a decided plus.

Seems just a short while back someone was trying to determine the make of the windshield on that car.

Roadsters went some interesting directions in the good ol daze, but there's only a few that were classic and led the way for others.
One thing I really like about the last roadster you posted, it has bobbed and cycle fenders.
Which I'm planning on with the new car.
Highboys are ok - more than ok in fact - and I'm not bothered by the lack of fenders, just that I think the 31 will look better with them as well as being a little different from todays highboys.
Not to mention the construction of brackets etc. will be fun.

As for the Daylight ... I don't want to highjack this post so look for another in a bit....

[30roadster]

would have liked to see the pic's of the metal work around the windshield posts in green's roadster to fill in so he could do the duvall.... pretty sweet metal massaging there

thanks for the dagel link!!!...i've been looking for the right frame...wanting certain things from it...i think i've found my baby!

[Pete]

I guess ill ask my question again, you guys seem to know your "A's" and "B's"


I set the 31 coupe body on the 32 frame today. Its obvious that the frame at the firewall could be pinched for a neater appearance. It looks as though even if it was to be pinched the cowl mounting holes still wouldnt be on top of the frame. How do folks fix this?

Mart do you have any close up photos of your frame with the body mounted to it? Im just trying to get an idea of what needs to be done.

Thanks.

Pete-

[Smokin Joe]

Anyone besides me notice that no one has ever built a 28 on 32 rails? Somehow they're all 29's. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[C9]

Pete, it may not need to be pinched.
What you may be comparing is the inset area of where the hood lacing goes and once you factor in that the hood sits out a bit and even with the body, it's a perfect match.

Granted, the holes don't match, but it's easy to make new body mounts.
The one you see in the pic - as well as how the body/frame fit goes - is a piece of 1 x 2" x .120 wall with one of the flat sides sawn off making for a very nice piece of channel for body mounts.
The white stuff you see is UHMW plastic.
It may get a 1/8" piece of neoprene added if there is a vibration problem.
I don't expect there to be.
I'm running the same stuff - UHMW - for motor mount cushions in my 32 and there is no vibration emanating from that.

[Pete]

Ahhhh, C9, thats the money shot! Thats the photo I was looking for. That very photo also shows how much the lower reveal on the cowl sticks out beyond the frame. It looks as though you just extended the model A's original cowl mounts. Yes? Looks great, thanks for the photo. Clarity at last.

[AHotRod]

YEA, you can do it....works fine.

[av8]

Look close, Jay, and you'll notice that the body has no character lines on the rear quarters. It's an interesting and very difficult detail to pull off in a well-finished car. Topper was always quick to point out that Scotty was responsible for the work. It's one of the details that appealed to Topper, prompting him to buy the car when Scotty put it on the market to go racing in a bellytank.

Topper's big 7/16 x 1/2 motor -- about 312 cid, was massively ported by Topper himself, was fitted with big Smith heads amd an Edelbrock four-pot manifold with Topper-massaged '97s. Topper built his own exhaust system with 1-3/4-inch runners feeding into a pair of '33-'34 torquetube housings. Ignition was provided by a large Pounden-modified aircraft magneto that stuck out on the front of the motor so far that the radiator had to be split to provide room for it.

I've long felt that if Tooper Chasse had been more of a trophy hound or publicity seeker he would have a prominent place in the pantheon of our hot-rodding gods. As it turned out, he carved himself a very special place in the ranks of folks who are serious about racing Porsche motor cars.

[C9]

[ QUOTE ]
It looks as though you just extended the model A's original cowl mounts. Yes

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.
The ugly weld you see is the opposite side of where it was welded.
That little bit will be gone over again from the front.
As well as a triangular piece on the body gets added to put a little more strength in there as well as give it a more finished look.

The car has several of the three sided rectangular tubing mounts welded to the frame.
Ten in all if I remember right.
Here's a pic of one that has double stacked UHMW cushions, the top one trimmed flat on the edges so as to fit into the bodys reinforcing floor channel.

[Brootal]

[ QUOTE ]
Not a problem though, I'd rather have a car that didn't run and looked right than one that ran and looked strange....


[/ QUOTE ]

I like the way you think C9. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I should save this post too as this is the combo that I plan to build (one day...)

[C9]

I didn't notice the lack of character lines on the body.
As you say, tough to pull off, even more so with a black car.

The Pounden aircraft magneto you mentioned reminded me of the oil company electrical generation plant where Dad worked.
There were six very large engines, OHV straight 8's, about 20 x 20" bore & stroke, maybe 24" long rocker arms, 8' diameter flywheel.
The engine sat down in a pit a ways, but you still had to climb up a short stairway to access the valve train.
Overall the engine was maybe 16' long on the block and head.
It ran on butane if I remember right, but the interesting thing was the pair of 8 cylinder Scintilla-Vertex magnetos on each engine.
They were timed similar to the dual magneto setup on aircraft engines.
Which is to say, spark lead - or timing - was pretty mellow number wise.
Mellow at least as compared to a car engine.
Since you're lighting off a couple of flame fronts not too much ignition lead is required.
Plus, one usually leads the other, maybe 2 degrees or so different.

The interesting part was, the magneto's weren't so large they couldn't have been used on a hot rod V8.
In fact, 2-3 of them were sold to an airplane owner.

The oil company went to commercial power from Edison and the engines were sold to a right coast outfit and most of them ended up in tugboats.

Your Daylight comment prompted me to write this little off-topic piece yesterday: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=221966&page=2& view=collapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1