Barn Job #18, '10 Build Thread.

[Old6rodder]

HA/GR #18 '10 build thread
Link to '09 build thread. (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=346487)
Link to '07/'08 build thread. (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=166288)

Name: "Barn Job #18" (Build photos link) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9255485@N04/sets/72157600488919503/)
Status: Racing
Team: "Geezerspeed"

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2633/4214490485_b8394fd97d_o.jpg

Engine: '60 225" Chrysler "slant" six
Carbs: three HIF6 SUs
Gearbox: '62 Valiant 3 sp.
Rear end: '62 Valiant 7.25", 4.10>1
Wheelbase: 124"
ET: 12.941
MPH: 105.50

Records:
'07 first mid engine HA/GR.
'07 first running HA/GR, left coast.
'08 winner, 1st HA/GR (unofficial) "meet", left coast.
'08 quickest HA/GR, left coast.
'08 fastest HA/GR, left coast.
'09 2nd place, ANRA I Open Wheel class.
'09 1st place, ANRA II HA/GR sub meet.
'09 2nd place, ANRA II Open Wheel class.
'09 1st 12 sec HA/GR run, left coast.
'10 First two left coast HA/GR clutch explosions, ANRA I. :rolleyes:

[Old6rodder]

Well kiddies,

We made it to 2010, with 2009 "in the books". What a year that was. :D

I've once again survived the Rose Parade and spent most of January recuperating, catching up on work & home maintainance and keeping our heads above the waterline this year.
Still, I've managed to find a little time to tickle the HAMBster a bit as well. :cool:

Failing to locate an available rear sump (pick up truck) oil pan last year, I gave up and re-cobbled a spare 987 (mid-sump) one I had on the shelf. I moved the sump back of course, added a rear baffle and relocated the dipstick tube to the side of the pan. Next up; stretching the oil pick-up tube to fit.

Following that we'll make the spacers for the new rear wheels we got last year and finally mount'em up.

Then it'll be a full tear down for some minor chassis re-engineering and hopefully some weight reduction. We'll touch up the paint then too.

Lastly (if we can get a few more "round tuits"), a proper cooling system & temp gauge, an oil pressure idiot light and a cam cut specifically for our set-up. Some of these may have to wait for later in the season.

Russ is finished with his surgeries and recuperating in Palm Springs ........ bored out of his skull. :rolleyes:
He'll likely be back aboard by mid year. And likely ready to race, ya think? :D
And he still weighs 50+ lbs less than I do. ;)

I'm also still way behind on the photo album but will try to get it caught up this month.

[64 DODGE 440]

Looking forward to seeing the results of your efforts...gonna have to start crackin' so we can stage with you this year.;)

[Toymaker]

Looking forward to seeing the results of your efforts...gonna have to start crackin' so we can stage with you this year.;)
You better "Start Crackin'", we need a full field this year at Eagle Field:D Notice I didn't say which event as I thought I'd be kind! Rocky

[64 DODGE 440]

You better "Start Crackin'", we need a full field this year at Eagle Field:D Notice I didn't say which event as I thought I'd be kind! Rocky

Thank you for your continued support...we don't know which event either, but plan giving it our best shot.:p

[Old6rodder]

Thank you for your continued support...we don't know which event either, but plan giving it our best shot.:p

One with a drag race? :D

Tom, I'll likely make it over next week. :cool:

[64 DODGE 440]

One with a drag race? :D

Tom, I'll likely make it over next week. :cool:

I'll likely be here. :cool:

[Toymaker]

I'll likely be here. :cool:
HaHaHaHa! The boys with the straight 8 picked up a manual trans set-up, look out. Rocky

[64 DODGE 440]

hahahaha! The boys with the straight 8 picked up a manual trans set-up, look out. Rocky

cool!!

[Old6rodder]

OK kiddies, I finally updated the build album.

I got around to putting'er on a diet this year but won't know how much she shed 'til I can get'er to a scale. Looking for 100 lbs but likely'll only get close to it.
Also spiffied up the front end a bit and will leave the new carb stacks on (they work! :D).

When the engine goes back together it'll be with a bit better cam, a bit more off the head and a bit more off the weight there too.

Other than that we're adding the L78 Cokers we bought last season, and that's about it. Hoping to keep'er in the 12s and have fun drivin'er. :cool:

Here's one of the new pics .....

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4062/4472611446_4789ba00b7.jpg

[bobw]

Thanks for the update, Dick. You are showing what can be achieved with a slant without shoveling tons of money into it. Good luck this season.

[64 DODGE 440]

You da man!!:D

The "hole" world of HA/GR bows down to you!!:p

[Toymaker]

The "God Father" of HA/GR's

[Old6rodder]

Thanks Bob, that's where the fun is for me.


The "God Father" of HA/GR's

No Rocky, I drilled each and every one of these holes with a drill, not a Thompson. :D

[nexxussian]

Aw, c-mon, the Thompson would have put the reinforcing flanges in all at the same time.:D

[64 DODGE 440]

Aw, c-mon, the Thompson would have put the reinforcing flanges in all at the same time.:D

For the size of them holes he would have had to use a 105.:D

[nexxussian]

For the size of them holes he would have had to use a 105.:D


This is true, but you might have secondary distortion "issues".:eek: :D

[Drewfus]

I like all the updates, however.....how much 'flex' is there in the front end? from this side of the pond it looks like you have removed a dramatic amount of steel from both the split bones and the axle, and whilst I appreciate that the core 'structural' elements remain, the length of those slots concerns me, especially given the kind of speeds you're going to be reaching....am I over reacting, how is it in the flesh? any details on the shortened box and electric motor used on the water pump?

Cheers,

Drewfus

[ThingyM]

I've been using a Ford heater motor on the waterpump since day one.And BobW also put one on his..I got mine belted with a 4-1 ratio. Adds about another 5 hp to the motor..

[Old6rodder]

I like all the updates, however.....how much 'flex' is there in the front end? from this side of the pond it looks like you have removed a dramatic amount of steel from both the split bones and the axle, and whilst I appreciate that the core 'structural' elements remain, the length of those slots concerns me, especially given the kind of speeds you're going to be reaching....am I over reacting, how is it in the flesh? any details on the shortened box and electric motor used on the water pump?

Cheers,

Drewfus

Howdy Drewfus,

Sorry, I'll need to take a couple paragraphs for a proper explanation.

Our front end is (functionally) an unequal length four link system with a bit of give in the joints as well, not the rigid bones design it appears to be.

Bone loadings;
Ford's solid mounted design relied on an intact wishbone, which rodders typically defeat by "splitting the bones". This then torsionally loads both the bones and the axle in a way Ford never intended and just chaffs the hell out of the engineer in me. It looks cool ...... but.
I have our bones set up to actually work as links (using flexible attachments at the axle ends in addition to the chassis ends) so that the joints take the movements as I've designed. They're weaker torsionally of course but no longer recieve any torsional loading.

Their beam strength is near original as the slots do not intrude on the arch portion of the oblong cross section. Thus the upper and lower chords are untouched, they're actually well over strength for their new function.

Spring loadings;
The spring loops (tips) are rubber sleeved like the bone's axle ends to allow for a bit of compression. This effectively eliminates the minor torsional loading inherent in unequal link layouts applied to limited travel designs.

Axle loadings;
It's torsional resistance is way down of course, particularly from the two slots outboard of the bone mounts. However there are no front brakes in my application, thus inducing no brake torsional load to the axle in the first place. The free mounting of the bones also eliminates any torsional loading to the axle from them as well.

Again, the top and bottom chords are unmolested, leaving the beam strength near original.

Weight loading;
Pretty much self explanatory in a dedicated drag racer, nowhere near what the equipment's originally designed for.
Not so, the other end of the car, and you'll notice the rear bones fully unmolested in spite of the fact that they're only taking compression & tension loads, no torsional at all. :D

I've been asked this before, but I've not before explianed it, merely responded that this is a strip only build, and only a fool would try it on the street. This in an admitted effort to keep neophytes from doing ill considered things.

The short gearbox is working well. The early output shaft has enough meat to allow re-splining for a later style slip joint after shortening. There after it's but a matter of shortening a later rear housing (with seal) to fit.
The original rear bushing's pretty much a sinecure, so the actual rear box bearing carries the load as the factory intended.

The original early ball & trunion joint could be done the same I expect, as the trunion plate was splined onto the output shaft as well. There'd be a bit of extra machining in the Jesus nut threads of course but it'd be perfectly do-able.

The electric motor for the pump is in an after market kit sold by Mr. Gasket, but it appears to be nothing more than a heater blower motor adapted to the service, the toothed belt & pulleys being the big deal. This is their cheapest kit, the injection molded pump end pulley doesn't fit the belt very well and I had to nobble the bracket a fair bit (it's designed for V8s). Still, it works.

[Drewfus]

Thanks, appreciate the feed back, as your explanation was both informative, and explanitory for your application.

Have you weighed the car lately?

Cheers,

Drewfus:)

[Old6rodder]

Not yet, some annoying customers interrupted putting the engine back in with actual work. :D It'll be a few more days before I can get back to it.

Forgive the pun but now it'll be a race to get'er back together for the 18th.

[bobw]

What? You engineered the changes to your car? There oughta be a law against that sort of thing.:)

[64 DODGE 440]

He's been backyard engineering since the early 60s if not before, (I've only known him since the early 60s so I can't go back any farther) and some of his engineering still amazes me.

If you think the Barn Job is interesting...you should see some of the stuff he makes that is hidden beneath all of the flowers on the Sierra Madre Rose Parade Float!

[bobw]

The only reason I teased Dick is cuz I know he's good.:)

[Old6rodder]

:D

Easy gentlemen, if this sort of stuff goes to my head I could decide to run for public office.

THEN you'd be sorry ........ :rolleyes:

I think the site (perhaps all sites) needs a decent "tongue in cheek" icon. :cool:

[64 DODGE 440]

:D

Easy gentlemen, if this sort of stuff goes to my head I could decide to run for public office.

THEN you'd be sorry ........ :rolleyes:

I think the site (perhaps all sites) needs a decent "tongue in cheek" icon. :cool:

Either that or a good "foot in mouth" icon.:p

[Old6rodder]

Ran into some unusual problems putting the new engine back together and am having to have a couple parts modified to fit. Still plan to make the ANRA opener but now it'll take a few midnighters to do it.

Cross your fingers gentlemen.

[Old6rodder]

Well, I've gotten'er all back together (pending the new back wheels' spacers) but with no time to do more than fire'er up in the garage we'll be an unknwn quantity for the ANRA opener.

I believe I got close to 100 lbs off'er (and 10 off myself :rolleyes:), hope to weigh'er at the meet.
Other than that, just a new bump stick this year.

Didn't get to port out the manifold like I wanted, that flywheel and clutch thing ate up the play time I'd allowed for it. I'll get to it later in the season.

We're finally getting a smarter camera, so I hope to have some better pictures to add to the album as well.

See you all after the meet.

[64 DODGE 440]

Go fast...go quick...smile a lot!! We'll be there in spirit, say hi to the gang for us.:D

[Old6rodder]

Will do.

Added a couple more pics to the build album.

Ready to head out in the morning ........

:D

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4023/4525115640_8eb69e79e9.jpg

[Old6rodder]

Not our best weekend. :(

Finally got time to start the teardown to fix the carnage, so here's the saga ........

We hauled up to Bako and tech'd in on Friday. Pulled into the lanes for quals Saturday morning. Set up and did our burnout but the clutch wouldn't release after, and I had to brake & kill switch it.
Put'er in neutral and restarted but the clutch still wouldn't release so I killed it again and the line crew pulled me back.

Pulled'er back to the pits and tore into it. Four piece pressure plate, breaks at the finger mounts, no other damage. Crap.
Talked my wife into a five hour parts run back to L.A. Now that's a wife, eh?

Got back with another pressure plate set-up and stuffed it in, punctuated by dinner and the awards ceremony. Too late to make a qual run.

Sunday morning I talked to Butch who was kind enough to let me follow the Open Wheel competitors with an exhibition run. This time I did the burn out and staged for the solo. Clutch slipped badly all the way through first, and when I hit the pedal for second at 5000 it sprayed. Just the pressure plate again but this time it took the can & bell apart quite soundly, removing a piece of the flywheel via one of the can screws. It also pried off a chunk of the bell mount flange, and with that a small piece of our oil galley. That scrapped the engine. It broke the TO beak off the gearbox and pounded the TO bearing out (the TO arm and pivot escaped clean).

All the major pieces stayed together and in place, the secondary supports held up properly.
Net losses; flywheel, full clutch set, block, bell, gearbox nosepiece.

The scattershield deformed as designed and kept the pieces out of the stands, bending the throttle linkage slightly. The frame deformed with it as designed, bending the shifting linkage slightly as well. Only had two pieces go over the K-rail on a short hop, those two went out at an odd angle. They were the two that were twisted off when the bell didn't break away from its mount flange but took the flange along with'em, they went forward rather than out radially.

We ordered a Spec Clutch set-up rated for 50% over our torque numbers, I'll have it in by Eagle Field but didn't make it in time for Dragfest :(.

Also there's word of an SFI bell being developed for the slant this year, to eventually be offered in a pattern for our gearbox. We'll be getting one soon as it's available.

I've added pictures to the album of course (see sig link) but here's a teaser ................

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3343/4602436921_a0851101a9.jpg

[Katuna]

Ouch Dick. That thing grenaded like a real live, genuine racey type car. Glad to hear you'll have her back together for Eagle Field. Did you have a spare motor in the wings?

[Old6rodder]

Yeah, still have last year's block (40 lbs heavier than the new one was) sitting on a roller-flat. I'll be swapping all the goodies back again.

[CrkInsp]

40lbs. ?? What block are you using? Did you find a good Al. one?

CrkInsp

[Old6rodder]

Cast crank vs forged, don't I just wish I could afford an aluminum one.

[Old6rodder]

Well, Saturday was a good day. :D

Got the frame rails and the scattershield straightened.
It's a comment on the forces involved that it took me half a day and a good back & arm to straighten and reform what it took that 6 lb pressure plate a tiny fraction of a second to deform. :rolleyes:

Added a couple pictures to the album of course but here's one for the thread .......

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4002/4610348663_7a5d47c81f.jpg

[Drewfus]

As much as that sucks, glad that you're all ok, and the safety elements did their job, live to fight another day.

Certainly a humble reminder to us all,

Drewfus:)

[nexxussian]

DANG!!!!

Glad you're OK.

Hope the car is up & running soon.

[Old6rodder]

OK, no pictures this time, but she's together, running, and ready for Eagle Field upon the morrow. :D

:cool:

[bobw]

I see broken parts...I see broken parts...Eagle Field...???

[Old6rodder]

I see broken parts...I see broken parts...Eagle Field...???


:( Yup ......
and I suppose I may as well spit it out.

Our "winning" ways continue. We pulled in and rolled'er off the trailer, fired'er up to do the checks and, while holding 4000 for a few seconds during the timing reset, she quit as if I'd hit the switch. In fact Tom thought I had.

Restarting didn't work and feeling the pipe & stack suctions produced anomolous pressures so we pulled the dist cap and noted the rotor was no longer in the game, but couldn't be turned by hand. Ergo, timing set. As none of us'd heard anything out of the ordinary and there were no noises when turning it over we were by now expecting a sheared cam pin.

The seat and the firewall access plate came out, the pulley and timing cover came off (with the generous loan of a puller, saving us the time to cobble one as we were doing) and what to our bloodshot eyes should appear but both the crank and cam sprockets rendered into kit form. The chain was clean and simply piled up around the pieces. I'll get to the verdict in a moment.

Rocky called around locally and found a repro set in a Modesto Autozone, a mere 2 1/2 hr turn-around run from the field. Sooooo ........
We got back and popped'er in, reassembled the cockpit and pulled'er over mere minutes before tech closed. Back in the pits we fired'er up and she ran, but was really lumpy. Still, it was "tee" time so we pulled'er up for a solo run. Lumpy and all, she ran well, turning the new hides well even at part throttle and (other than my bobbled second gear) negotiated the strip properly, pulling nicely the whole way.

Still, the lack of smoothness bugged me, so we did some more feelings of the pipes and noticed #3 out of sorts. We popped the rocker box and sure enough, we had a well bent and dislodged pushrod. In fact we had a truant lifter as well, as when I looked down the hole I was looking at lobe. We found it shortly, tucked under the side of another (now bent) pushrod two back.

Well, we wiggled it back into its hole, Tom tapped the rods straight again and we stuck it all back together. She fired up and ran smooth enough but with less than two hours of meet left I decided not to take'er up the tach with the "adjusted" rods. I didn't want to take the possibility of either the engine getting hurt again or oiling Rocky's strip down. So yep, I chickened out.

We did at least drive'er up onto the trailer on her own at day's end (Joe had to winch his streamliner in with a broken driveline, likely a pressure plate, so we agreed to declare the Barn Job the winner of "our" round :rolleyes:).

Summation:
We believe I likely fractured the crank sprocket at the keyway, either in putting it on or in tapping the pulley on against it. It held through tests 'til it fractured the far side at the field. Then, coming out from between the chain and the crank nose on the back side and still driven by the remaining half, the half now free angled up into the teeth of the cam sprocket and wedged into'em ...... for about a thousandth of a second before it all sprayed.

Of course that jerk is likely what bent the first pushrod (over an inch aside), with a later revolution sending the lifter errant, bending the second slightly.

The oddity of none of us hearing a thing, the unusual totality of the damage to the sprockets, the pristine condition of the chain and the lack of further noise either, are all curious (to say the least), but concievable within that reasoning.

Anyway, I'm going to do a bit more in lightening the valve train, then remove the inner valve springs. It's our conclusion that unloading the cam some will be good, and that the low tach we turn should handle the valves against the lift with just the one spring.

So, the Antique Nat's at Pomona in two weeks'll be the field test for that.

"Other than that, Mrs. Linclon, how was the play?" :rolleyes:
Actually, I had a ball. Breaking (sometimes in creative ways) is part of the hobby and it's the hobby itself that I so enjoy, particularly the nostalgia corner of it. Hell, we broke'em some then too. :D

The meet was "to hell & gone" larger and more chaotic then the last one, with the wind and dust verifying the desert localle. Still, it was handled (even better than could be expected), and still also, was the best thing in "the way it actually was" there is on the left coast to date.
You can bet your ass we'll be at the next one. :cool:
Go see this thread (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=477302) if you don't get it.

I'll try to get some pictures up this week.

[REJ]

Dick, the only thing that pisses me off is, "yall are having too much fun on the left coast".
I guess I'll have to wait until August and the HAMB drags!!
Robert

[bobw]

Dick,

An entertaining and eloquent narrative. It's a damn shame you had to file the report though. Was that an "experienced " timing set?

I ran my Crosley Saturday and pretended I was at Eagle Field. Didn't work.

[Old6rodder]

Yeah, the crank sprocket was an "elder statesman". I use the stockers below with the kit sprockets above as they're slightly off from the kit ones and give me a few degrees to play with in timing the cam. I like nearer 100* than the 106* in the kit, don't care to scream essentially stock bottom ends.

I probably should've sweat it on rather than tapping it.
To tell the truth, having both of'em go was a first for me. I haven't done it that way before, so it took Tom and I rather awhile reading the pieces to dope it out, and it was he who got it first.

[64 DODGE 440]

Regardless of all the problems...it was the best dirt pit thrash I've had since 1962 at San Gabriel!!:p

[Old6rodder]

Howdy, update time ........

....... but first a question.
What do you get when you cut .100" off the head of, and put larger valves into, a non-interference engine?

That's right class, you get an interference engine. :eek:

I pulled the head to yank the secondary valve springs and install the lighter gear, and lo & behold, there were dents in four of the pistons, five shallow dents in all.

Goes a long way in explaining the roughness left over after the timing sprockets thrash at Eagle Field. :rolleyes:

So today I got to straighten and lap the four bent valves (we got lucky on one) in addition to doing the lightening work. Verrrrrry patient work with a medium hammer and an 1/8" "drift" sheet.
And as I have no lapping rouge handy I re-aquainted myself with my toothpaste supply. Those valves have such bright smiles and fresh breath now. :D

Anyway, she's going back together nicely and will be at the Antique Nat's at the new Fontana Sunday. Tom (64 DODGE 440) and I'll take turns puttin'er through shake-down there, in anticipation of ANRA II at Famoso in a couple weeks. :cool:

I'll let you know how we did. :cool:

[Old6rodder]

Or not .............

I flamed'er on the trailer for a quick test. She still sounds rocky, and ate another timing set within ten seconds.

Looks like I have some detective work to do.

:mad:

[REJ]

I know you will share your findings with the group, the sooner the better.
I installed a stock set of timing gears and chain in mine in October and I think I just ate them up last night at test/tune.
I have had no problems in the past with the stock set, but I probably do not have 50 runs on this set and I am pretty sure they are gone the way the car acted last night.
I have heard that they make a set of double roller chain for the slant and maybe that is the way to go??
I just do not understand why a stock set will not hold up??
Robert

[Joe Hamby]

To you slant 6 guys. I got my double roller timing chain from Clifford's. It came from Australia. Joe

[Old6rodder]

Howdy all,

Working myself to death, no time yet to fix the HAMBster, bored out of my skull.

Just to keep my spirits up here's one of Neglected Steel's pictures from the last Eagle Field meet, me churning the desert dust. :cool:


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4154/4837027230_716bd6b662_b.jpg

[64 DODGE 440]

Looks good...even if it wasn't running on all six.:p

[Joe Hamby]

Hi old 6, from that angle, it reminds me of the old green monster of Art Arfons.

[Old6rodder]

Howdy,

He had a couple more pistons in his engine. :D

Here's one for your memory jogger file ....... :cool:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2779/4080007990_e9ff5e3444.jpg

[ScottV]

He had a couple more pistons in his engine. :D

Here's one for your memory jogger file ....... :cool:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2779/4080007990_e9ff5e3444.jpg


Apparently the same tires though !!! :p

[Drewfus]

Apparently the same tires though !!! :p

chain drive on a solid bar shaft.....yikes....:eek: you'd want to keep it straight at speed...

[Old6rodder]

Apparently the same tires though !!!

:D

I don't have verification but I think this helicopter engined go-kart might be Arfons' first car (aircraft that is, not the Olds).
I recall once reading that his first was a chopper engine, and there's an aircraft engined middie behind the pick-up as well (maybe his first two cars?). I've read several things on his early stuff but haven't found another mention of a chopper car, or even re-found that one mention.

Wish I had more info on this photo.

[Old6rodder]

OK, kiddies,

Here it is. I finally got time to tear into'er and at long last discovered my timing sprocket problem as I was putting a new set in. The key that the factory uses to drive both the crank sprocket and the crank pulley is the standard Woodruff design, round cut on the backside to fit into a round bottom slot in the crank nose originally cut on a type of horizontal mill.

It seems that mine was either a bit too short on the top (flat) side or the slot was cut too deep, and this allowed it to "rock" in the slot. With the sprocket putting more side load on the key than the pulley, it "rocked" up into the pulley slot and down out of the sprocket slot. Eventually far enough to let the crank sprocket slip.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4141/4921552585_68bed67b9b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4119/4922147426_d4bf17d194.jpg

This turned the cam loose in relation to the crank, allowing the valves to get out of phase. With the addition of enough valve size and the subtraction of enough head material this condition then allows the valves to come into contact with the pistons and tends to bend things.

I suspect that the situation with the moving Woodruff key on a stocker would still break the crank sprocket and subsequently the cam sprocket as well. You'd be spared the bent valves though.

I notched the pistons to clear again no matter what and put in an new timing set. I guess we'll see this weekend. I'll put up some pictures of the work when I get back, sometime next week.

ps. The Rollmaster style double roller set from JP is really nice in that it's mountable up to 8* forward or backward of the stock setting, using extra key slots on the crank sprocket.
Base setting on the cam I have is 108* so I mounted it at -8* for a 100* total, a good setting for inline sixes.

[bobw]

It's good you're figuring out the root cause of the failure. It will help us other slant guys avoid that calamity.
Where did you get the good roller chain timing set? Not familiar with JP.

[Old6rodder]

Sorry, my bad.

JP Performance is an Aussie company that makes speed parts. Their slant six timing set looks a lot like the Rollmaster set but is handier to use. They may've bought Rollmaster, which could explain that.

JP's stuff is handled by Falcon Global via E-bay listings here in the states. That's where I got mine, they have warehouses here and carry a lot of JP's stuff. I had to call'em and give'em the e-bay ref number for the set, but they shipped immediately (for a price of course, UPS next day air from their Florida warehouse ain't cheap) and I didn't have to go back to e-bay.

I ordered'em Monday, put'em in Tuesday (with a modification to the key), and fired'er Tuesday evening. The problem seems to be solved and the new cam sounds good.

There are likely other U.S. handlers of their stuff but you'd need to research that, or call'em at 61-8-8261-7222, I'm sure they can tell you.

[Old6rodder]

OK, I finally figured out Flick'r's new posting system. What a pita.

See the timing set problem post, #58 on this thread. Page 3 if you're displaying 20 posts per page.

Ah hell, I'll just re-post it.

[64 DODGE 440]

OK, I finally figured out Flick'r's new posting system. What a pita.

See the timing set problem post, #58, page 3.

Page 3??? It may be there, but I need a better map to find it.:p

[Old6rodder]

OK, here's the re-post ..........

The key that the factory uses to drive both the crank sprocket and the crank pulley is the standard Woodruff design, round cut on the backside to fit into a round bottom slot in the crank nose originally cut on a type of horizontal mill.

It seems that mine was either a bit too short on the top (flat) side or the slot was cut too deep, and this allowed it to "rock" in the slot. With the sprocket putting more side load on the key than the pulley, it "rocked" up into the pulley slot and down out of the sprocket slot. Eventually far enough to let the crank sprocket slip.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4141/4921552585_68bed67b9b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4119/4922147426_d4bf17d194.jpg

This turned the cam loose in relation to the crank, allowing the valves to get out of phase. With the addition of enough valve size and the subtraction of enough head material this condition then allows the valves to come into contact with the pistons and tends to bend things.

I suspect that the situation with the moving Woodruff key on a stocker would still break the crank sprocket and subsequently the cam sprocket as well. You'd be spared the bent valves though.

I simply made a taller Woodruff key and it's working properly now. I dug up a slab close to the needed thickness, hacksawed, ground & filed on it to fit. Some heat & quenching and it's a bit harder as well.

[64 DODGE 440]

OK, here's the re-post ..........

The key that the factory uses to drive both the crank sprocket and the crank pulley is the standard Woodruff design, round cut on the backside to fit into a round bottom slot in the crank nose originally cut on a type of horizontal mill.

It seems that mine was either a bit too short on the top (flat) side or the slot was cut too deep, and this allowed it to "rock" in the slot. With the sprocket putting more side load on the key than the pulley, it "rocked" up into the pulley slot and down out of the sprocket slot. Eventually far enough to let the crank sprocket slip.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4141/4921552585_68bed67b9b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4119/4922147426_d4bf17d194.jpg

This turned the cam loose in relation to the crank, allowing the valves to get out of phase. With the addition of enough valve size and the subtraction of enough head material this condition then allows the valves to come into contact with the pistons and tends to bend things.

I suspect that the situation with the moving Woodruff key on a stocker would still break the crank sprocket and subsequently the cam sprocket as well. You'd be spared the bent valves though.

I simply made a taller Woodruff key and it's working properly now. I dug up a slab close to the needed thickness, hacksawed, ground & filed on it to fit. Some heat & quenching and it's a bit harder as well.

Nicely broken!

More offerings to the gods of speed!:D

[Old6rodder]

Apparently the same tires though !!!

:D

I don't have verification but I think this helicopter engined go-kart might be Arfons' first car (aircraft that is, not the Olds).
I recall once reading that his first was a chopper engine, and there's an aircraft engined middie behind the pick-up as well (maybe his first two cars?). I've read several things on his early stuff but haven't found another mention of a chopper car, or even re-found that one mention.

Wish I had more info on this photo.

OK, I found this shot of Arfons working on the chopper engine car (love the pit technique), but there was no additional info with it. I think it is his.

Anyone have anything more on this?

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4145/4972948799_d1313031e5.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9255485@N04/4972948799/)

[Joe Hamby]

Nice tires, and it looks like he used the seat out of an aircraft also.

[Old6rodder]

Nice tires, and it looks like he used the seat out of an aircraft also.

Yeah, that wasn't uncommon then. They were around and a bloody lot cheaper than now.

[Old6rodder]

Update of sorts ..........

Well I have'er back together and will have'er at the "Long Beach Motorama" show this weekend.

For once I'm ahead of the "last minute before the meet". If I'm right this will be our final set of changes of any note. From here on out the car should be a reliable high to mid 12 second car.

Now to get my R/Ts and consistency under control.

Next racing stop, Eagle Field. Then the closing ANRA, and if all goes well a decent next season in '11. :cool:

[bobw]

Looking forward to some fine coverage of the Eagle Field Happening. With all the problems this year, you are due a problem free season next year. Go get 'em!

[97]

Update of sorts ..........

Well I have'er back together and will have'er at the "Long Beach Motorama" show this weekend.

For once I'm ahead of the "last minute before the meet". If I'm right this will be our final set of changes of any note. From here on out the car should be a reliable high to mid 12 second car.

Now to get my R/Ts and consistency under control.

Next racing stop, Eagle Field. Then the closing ANRA, and if all goes well a decent next season in '11. :cool:

I'll send your Kiwi "crew" back for the weekend!! :D:D

[Old6rodder]

I'll send your Kiwi "crew" back for the weekend!! :D:D

Now that I'd like. :cool:

Sounds good Bob, I'll take it. Please! :D

[GooseNZ]

Have a good run at eagle feild Dick...

...and stop bustin' them gears and get a 2nd run in! ;D

Good stufF!