GMC 6 info

[Hudsonator]

Guys,

We're a bit too quiet.

My cousin has just fallen into a pile of old GMC 6's. Could you fellas help me with the ID of these engines? I am not up on their identifying marks/numbers at all.

I'm not really sure how many variations of these engines there are, as in displacements etc.

Of all the places on the HAMB, I figure there is more Jimmy tech here than anywhere.

Hud

[buffaloracer]

There should be a pad next to the distributor. Generally the first three numbers will give you the displacement. 302,270,248,228 are the numbers i think you will find.

[Hudsonator]

Thanks for that info. I haven't looked at them all yet, but the one I did - started with a 248.

One head was off another engine, and was the strangest combustion chamber I've ever seen. The valves were all angled(haven't measured them) with the intake coming dang near out in the center of the bore nearly flat, the only recess was for the angled exhaust valve - tiny little pocket that was somewhat triangular. I'll try and get some pictures later. Forgive my crude descriptions - I'm in that discovery phase that's akin to a little kid on christmas morning.

Hud

[CrkInsp]

That head description sounds like a chevy head. Can you find a casting #?

[Hudsonator]

It is a chevy head, I went today and dug through the pile. This one engine was disassembled and I noticed the dipper rods, a pre '54 235. We still don't know what all is in this deal. They just keep dragging engines and parts out.

I didn't get the particular casting number. I found a casting number list for the blocks that I'm going to print off and take back to my cousin. I did take some pictures of the head's business side and will post them later, I'll get the casting number for you too.

I appreciate the help.

Hud

[nexxussian]

Not that the folks here don't know, but the Inliners site has a casting # list here (http://inliners.org/casting/numbers.html) and it goes back to '42.

It also has links to other lists (in case you find something that's not on there).

[Hudsonator]

Thanks guys.

How about parts sources?

[nexxussian]

There are quite a few 'mom & pop' vendors out there still, depends entirely on what you are looking for.

for inernal parts, Patrics would be a good start, Larrowe & Son, as well as Langdon. For adapters I would think Buffalo would be a good source.

Of course Wilcap and Egge are probably pretty far up the list too.

For that matter (completely OT here but bear with me), as I understand it Joe Fontana will whittle you a 12 port head, supposedly has a package that will take a stock 302 shortblock to 380 HP, on 'pump gas' (no, I don't know who's pump ;)).

Not legal for HA/GR but it should give you some idea of the variety that's available.

[Hudsonator]

I had really never paid much attention to these engines before. Nothing beyond many of the comments made here and watching some of the builds/vehicles.

Your comment isn't off topic at all, the inability to run a 12 port head is the only thing keeping my Hudsonly ambitions alive in this class. Since I've been paying more attention to the dimensions of these engines etc., I can see where some serious power can be made.

[nexxussian]

My vote for 'most exotic' Jimmy, in class, goes to Ron's externally pumped super long rod "302".

Can ya just immagine having a road going hot rod with that bottom end and Fontana's head?:cool:

You'd have to hang a blanket out back to catch evrything aft of the flywheel as you drove over it.:eek:

Ahh, daydreams of winning the lottery, now back to work.:( (me)

[esfoder]

I had really never paid much attention to these engines before. Nothing beyond many of the comments made here and watching some of the builds/vehicles.

Your comment isn't off topic at all, the inability to run a 12 port head is the only thing keeping my Hudsonly ambitions alive in this class. Since I've been paying more attention to the dimensions of these engines etc., I can see where some serious power can be made.


Hey Hud your not slipping over to the dark side are ya?

[Joe Hamby]

Overhead?

[Hudsonator]

Hey Hud your not slipping over to the dark side are ya?

Noooooooo!

But, I don't pass up a chance to learn either. My cousin has been smitten with these things and I'm getting a chance to look the competition over really good. Very interesting engines. Until they start running aftermarket heads, I think the Hudson can still take 'em.

If you thought my inquiry over Jimmy 6's are playing dangerously with the Dark Side, get a load of what I have in the shop right now.

http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu339/Hudsonator/Marks%20SBC%20engine/DSC00276.jpg


Yeah, caught red handed flow testing small block chevy heads.

But, that engine stand just over my head has a Hudson, with triple webers and a McCulloch hooked to it - so I keep armed against the Dark Side with the right stuff.

[nexxussian]

I remember seeing one of those flow test boxes advertised somewhere, PRI maybe?

How do you like it?

[Hudsonator]

Here's my writeup of the Audie Quick Flow posted elsewhere.

http://olskoolrodz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51444

I've been amazed at the repeatability achieved. This "box" is so simple and fast, no hot rodder with an engine fetish should be without one.

My attempt at a cheap, direct reading velocity probe hasn't worked out so well. But I'll keep hammerin'. When I get finished with the sbc crap, I'm back on the flatheads.

Hud

[esfoder]

Your shop looks alot like mine. Speaking of the "dark side" I have a old corn binder water truck sittin at my rock pit that has the 450 six banger in it. (super red diamond)The thing is huge but I find my self wondering how much power could be had from one of these??? 4.375" bore and 5" stroke 6.3 comp ratio. Bump that up some a regrind a cam it has some potential but I think it's to heavy for a drag car. Maybe a tractor or something ???



Dusty

P.S. I just bought the family hay farm maybe I'll build a tractor from scratch

[Hudsonator]

Your shop looks alot like mine. Speaking of the "dark side" I have a old corn binder water truck sittin at my rock pit that has the 450 six banger in it. (super red diamond)The thing is huge but I find my self wondering how much power could be had from one of these??? 4.375" bore and 5" stroke 6.3 comp ratio. Bump that up some a regrind a cam it has some potential but I think it's to heavy for a drag car. Maybe a tractor or something ???



Dusty

P.S. I just bought the family hay farm maybe I'll build a tractor from scratch

They're using the big Red Diamond engines in the antique pulls these days. They moved the vintage date to '58 and in some cases '62. The Red Diamond is finding a new home tucked inside the rails of 460 and 560 IH farmalls. A mild Red Diamond tractor engine build is 700 CID, with some I've heard of going over 1000". Lots of space in those engines that tractor fanatics are more than willing to squeeze.

Transmission longevity is a problem. I have no idea how much torque those monsters are making. It is very impressive.

Hud

[esfoder]

Before I got into the Hudsons I was looking at the Black Diamond 308 for power. I've heard good things about those also. I wonder if International ever thought the engines they designed were going to be used for racing ?

Dusty

[Joe Hamby]

esfoder, did you bring a hudson to tulsa in 2007 for the event and car show when they dug up that 1957 plymouth that was buried in 57?

[Hudsonator]

Before I got into the Hudsons I was looking at the Black Diamond 308 for power. I've heard good things about those also. I wonder if International ever thought the engines they designed were going to be used for racing ?

Dusty

I was tuning up on a Silver Diamond 220 today. I also believe the IH has everything and perhaps a tad more to offer than the Jimmy engines. One of these days I'll get serious with a IH, but that's way down the line. Very, very similiar engines the IH and GMC.

If you have a BD308, I'd hang on to it - ya never know.

Hud

[esfoder]

esfoder, did you bring a hudson to tulsa in 2007 for the event and car show when they dug up that 1957 plymouth that was buried in 57?
Nope not me Joe. One of my guys dug up a fifty something Pontiac a couple of years ago. The dam thing must have been burried there by someone. It just fell out of a 40 foot rock wall? good thing there was no bodies in it?

Dusty

I have a 282 black diamond but not a 308. Im sure I could find one if I tried. Lots of old farms around here. Ya know of any sites that deal with IH engines? Sorry to get off the topic

[Hudsonator]

Nope not me Joe. One of my guys bug up a fifty something Pontiac a couple of years ago. The dam thing must have been burried there by someone. It just fell out of a 40 foot rock wall? good thing there was no bodies in it?

Dusty

I have a 282 black diamond but not a 308. Im sure I could find one if I tried. Lots of old farms around here. Ya know of any sites that deal with IH engines? Sorry to get off the topic

I'm kinda heartbroken, pissed off, and generally put out with this whole venue.

I just read the SDRA's new engine rules. They pretty much just laid all these old warhorses back into the glue factory line.

GMC
Hudson
IH

Anything that ain't bowtie or blue oval - prepare for the perpetual loser's bracket.

Damn I'm upset. I need to just get off here and cool off, alot of my hopes just died.

Hud

[Drewfus]

step back and breathe for a minute.....as yourself a question, are there because you love to race with this old stuff, or to be the quickest on the day.....

then, build your engine, and either go racing, or bring it down here....and go racing....;):D

Chin up, lifes not always about the outcome, but the journey.

Cheers,

Drewfus:)

[Hudsonator]

step back and breathe for a minute.....as yourself a question, are there because you love to race with this old stuff, or to be the quickest on the day.....

then, build your engine, and either go racing, or bring it down here....and go racing....;):D

Chin up, lifes not always about the outcome, but the journey.

Cheers,

Drewfus:)

I've never legally raced in my life. I got busted for road racing (they ambushed me at home), and changed my ways afterward while trying to get my license restored. I got into antique tractor pulling, and did that for a long time.

I've seen this kind of escalation, its no good. Any way you slice it, the slippery slope has been greased. I never expected to win, but did want to be close enough to make it fun and be hungry to keep pushing. No way in hell I'd ever get close enough to a 292 or 300 to win - or even be a threat.

Now, I think I'd just as soon finish the engine and just drive the hell out of it on the road in something. A full bodied car and bracket racing don't sound so bad. Keep it local and just race against myself and the clock. I wouldn't be doing any worse at an SDRA race as it seems to be shaping up.

This whole retro dragster idea for me, is gone.

Hud

[ThingyM]

I'm sorry guys, But I thought this was the HA/GR board.. If there is so much intrest in the SDRA stuff. Then I think they should have their own board..Lets talk HAMBsters not low buck DRAGSTERS...I got my HA/GR done now, and it's staying that way...

[esfoder]

The dark side commeth


Dusty

[Joe Hamby]

Hi Don, that dream of 300's is because he can't beat 348. maybe the Hornet should be painted purple and called the sour grape.

[64 DODGE 440]

I'm sorry guys, But I thought this was the HA/GR board.. If there is so much intrest in the SDRA stuff. Then I think they should have their own board..Lets talk HAMBsters not low buck DRAGSTERS...I got my HA/GR done now, and it's staying that way...

Amen to that comment, Dick, the way they are going there won't be any low buck about it.


I've seen this kind of escalation, its no good. Any way you slice it, the slippery slope has been greased. I never expected to win, but did want to be close enough to make it fun and be hungry to keep pushing. No way in hell I'd ever get close enough to a 292 or 300 to win - or even be a threat.

Now, I think I'd just as soon finish the engine and just drive the hell out of it on the road in something. A full bodied car and bracket racing don't sound so bad. Keep it local and just race against myself and the clock. I wouldn't be doing any worse at an SDRA race as it seems to be shaping up.

This whole retro dragster idea for me, is gone.

Hud

Hud, it's your choice, but you don't have to play to their rules. You can build what you want and run bracket with it if there isn't anybody else who has the same vision as you have, but believe me, as Old6rodder said after he let me make a pass in the Barn Job this weekend at the Eagle Field meet......."once you make a pass with one of these, you will never go back to a door slammer" and it's the truth! To me, it doesn't matter if our car never gets out of the 14 second range it won't really matter, it's simply a case of running the best it will do, hearing the engine howl and having the naked wheels out front and the wind in my face.

You have your dream.......don't let them spoil it. Live it to the max!!

[ThingyM]

Yea Tom.. Has that grin fallen off your face yet, After your ride in The other Dicks car.. There sure was one on there Saturday... Hud,,,Don't let them spoil it for you, I know, I had second thoughts also. But now that my HA/GR is runniing. I'm in it all the way. They can take their 300 plus" motors and ???!!!^%*#. I'm just fine with my 198" chev. And that is where it will stay

[Hudsonator]

Amen to that comment, Dick, the way they are going there won't be any low buck about it.



Hud, it's your choice, but you don't have to play to their rules. You can build what you want and run bracket with it if there isn't anybody else who has the same vision as you have, but believe me, as Old6rodder said after he let me make a pass in the Barn Job this weekend at the Eagle Field meet......."once you make a pass with one of these, you will never go back to a door slammer" and it's the truth! To me, it doesn't matter if our car never gets out of the 14 second range it won't really matter, it's simply a case of running the best it will do, hearing the engine howl and having the naked wheels out front and the wind in my face.

You have your dream.......don't let them spoil it. Live it to the max!!

I'll get over it, and do something.

The whole affair is driving me more toward the hard-line HA/GR philosophy. The attraction to SDRA was the transmission because we've had so much trouble with manual transmissions behind Hudsons just on the street. I had thought that their rules eliminated just enough of the mechanical shortcomings (and some driver shortcomings) to make it all about the engine.

Either designation was all about the engine for me. A chance for these old mills to compete amongst their contemporaries - just as it was back in the day. Looking back over the threads and builds, an amazing amount of innovation and personality was given to these old engines by the builders - that really inspired me.

It was one of those situations where the constraint of the engine type made a person really think through the build in ways they wouldn't have to otherwise. I don't mind throwing some new tech in the mix to help an old forgotten engine shine once again, Ron Golden's Jimmy engine really stands out in my mind as an example of what I'm talking about. I really admire that engine.

I admire Corey Woerth's mopar flathead just as much - if not more.

Today, I admire Corey's build philosophy with renewed appreciation.

Hud

[64 DODGE 440]

I'll get over it, and do something.

The whole affair is driving me more toward the hard-line HA/GR philosophy. The attraction to SDRA was the transmission because we've had so much trouble with manual transmissions behind Hudsons just on the street. I had thought that their rules eliminated just enough of the mechanical shortcomings (and some driver shortcomings) to make it all about the engine.

Either designation was all about the engine for me. A chance for these old mills to compete amongst their contemporaries - just as it was back in the day. Looking back over the threads and builds, an amazing amount of innovation and personality was given to these old engines by the builders - that really inspired me.

It was one of those situations where the constraint of the engine type made a person really think through the build in ways they wouldn't have to otherwise. I don't mind throwing some new tech in the mix to help an old forgotten engine shine once again, Ron Golden's Jimmy engine really stands out in my mind as an example of what I'm talking about. I really admire that engine.

I admire Corey Woerth's mopar flathead just as much - if not more.

Today, I admire Corey's build philosophy with renewed appreciation.

Hud

First thing.......in a light car the trans takes a lot less abuse, just don't slam shift and you don't need to side step the clutch for a good launch.

Second.......you are right about "innovation", that is what the whole thing is about.......well, that and having fun.:p

Third.......the build and first run will be worth the effort, even if there are no other cars in the class in your area.......ask Old6rodder, Toymaker or any of the other HA/GR builders on here.

Yea Tom.. Has that grin fallen off your face yet, After your ride in The other Dicks car.. There sure was one on there Saturday... Hud,,,Don't let them spoil it for you, I know, I had second thoughts also. But now that my HA/GR is runniing. I'm in it all the way. They can take their 300 plus" motors and ???!!!^%*#. I'm just fine with my 198" chev. And that is where it will stay

Grin?? What grin?? Oh.......that one.:D I think it's permanent and I'm liking it!! YEEHAW!!:D

[Ron Golden]

Hud,

Thanks for the comment.

Ron

p.s. The car is for sale.

[Hudsonator]

p.s. The car is for sale.

I sincerely hope its not your health causing the sale.

I say you dump the saginaw, go with a modern Jerico or something of the like - and give the guys a hard time.

Pour out some gear swappin' whoppass on them.

Hud

[moparsled]

I sincerely hope its not your health causing the sale.

I say you dump the saginaw, go with a modern Jerico or something of the like - and give the guys a hard time.

Pour out some gear swappin' whoppass on them.

Hud

HEY!!! don't tell him stuff like that! he gotta give the rest of the gear jammers a chance to catch up before he does something like that!

[Hudsonator]

HEY!!! don't tell him stuff like that! he gotta give the rest of the gear jammers a chance to catch up before he does something like that!

I'll probably build a gear jammer myself.

Which would mean that I'd likely never win, I'm not that good of a shifter. Some sort of functional rev-limiter will be a must for me.

Run for Fun, I reckon that's my new motto. Who knows? I might sneak up on somebody.

Hud

[nexxussian]

The gear jammer sounds like the fun way to go to me, it's one of the things that interest me in the class (that and it's just out and out COOL:cool:).

[esfoder]

Just found another 53 gmc ton and a half truck with a 302 in it. This one has not moved in many years but is in very good shape. This is the 4th one this year I have found by accident.Also a couple of corn binders to boot. There seems to be no shortage of iron out there if ya know where to look? If I had not already made a considerable investment in the Hudson I would be runnin one of these for sure.

Ya just gotta look in the right places. Old farms mines orchards fruit warehouses. Most of these out fits have a junk yard some where and that my friends is where the treasures are.


Dusty

[Hudsonator]

Just found another 53 gmc ton and a half truck with a 302 in it. This one has not moved in many years but is in very good shape. This is the 4th one this year I have found by accident.Also a couple of corn binders to boot. There seems to be no shortage of iron out there if ya know where to look? If I had not already made a considerable investment in the Hudson I would be runnin one of these for sure.

Ya just gotta look in the right places. Old farms mines orchards fruit warehouses. Most of these out fits have a junk yard some where and that my friends is where the treasures are.


Dusty

I've actually discovered over the years that its EASIER to find stuff that nobody else wants, or really needs. Most of these engine types fit that description and can be had reasonably. You just have to know where to look and be patient.

Its always good to lay your hands on that stuff, good swapping fodder to fuel your main interest. I hope you go on to build the Hudson, we need one running in the fray - badly.

Hud

[esfoder]

Yep going to build the Hudson. Just working out some of the kinks with trannys and clutch attachment. Progress is slow I have a couple of other things taking up my time but it will happen. I would love to get it done so I could take it to the Hudson National in Spokane next year?


Well see

Dusty

The only problem with finding old Hudson stuff is they never made heavy duty trucks? The local places I find stuff is all old "worn out" trucks or even pickups. I know Hudson made some pickups but nothing I would consider heavy duty. one ton or ton and a half?