Proposed 4 cylinder hambster

[teda265]

I thought i would run this past the HA/GR group first to see if there are any objections to it ,I'm hoping to transplant a 4 cylinder motor into my current slant 6 225ci Hambster that i've just started racing here in oz.The proposed engine is a Peugeot ohv slant 4 i would limit it to the 1618cc(99ci) XC versions to fit the pre 1962 engine cut off rule. A interesting feature is they have a hemi styled head on them which would help a little to compensate for the small capacity and not to mention i'd save about 200lb's in engine weight over my current slant 6.I'm hoping to do a couple of more meeting with the current set-up before changing to the pug motor early next year.
Also are there any other 4 banger Hambsters that are currently racing ,I do know about one other being built here in Australia.

[nexxussian]

Not an expert on the XC series (learning the XU the hard way) but I imagine the crowd would like a few more deatils before deciding.

Sounds interesting regardless.

[FANTASY FACTORY]

Well just as an FYI, here on Wrong Island my son and i are going Pinto Power.
2.3 litres, 97 inchs of pure mushoom pulling power. I never expect to meet anyone from th site so i am building in the spirit while trying to conform to local bracket rules.

[metalshapes]

That would be the Peugeot 403, right?

I knew a guy who souped them up, back in the day.

He'd change the siamesed intake to 4 individual runners, with 2 DCOE Webers.

Massive improvement in torque...

[vectorsolid]

... but I imagine the crowd would like a few more deatils before deciding.

Pffft...:rolleyes:

Teda265, Build what you want and have a good time. Who's to say that what you end up with isn't what we should have had the whole time? This sounds like a good example of YOUR vision, not Ryan's vision. It's possible they are not the same.

Unless you're going to a "specific" rules enforced HA/GR event where it's critical, do your own thing baybee! And if your racing a regular group of rules enforced cars and you're slower... nobody is gonna care. ;)

If you got parts laying around and are building this thing on the cheap, all the better. THAT is how it was done in the day. Made outta crap that was laying around. Used your personal "ingenious ways" to knock out a race car at home. I like it. Post pics. :)

[vectorsolid]

i never expect to meet anyone from th site so i am building in the spirit while trying to conform to local bracket rules.

+1...

[97]

That would be the Peugeot 403, right?

I knew a guy who souped them up, back in the day.

He'd change the siamesed intake to 4 individual runners, with 2 DCOE Webers.

Massive improvement in torque...


There is a couple of guys here in NZ who run a Peugoet in a dragster, have been running it since the 70s, does about a 9 flat at 150 and wins more often than it looses.

They have embarrassed a lot of V8s over the years.

[OBFB HA/GR]

Do it Ted , those little suckers sure can make some power. Like 97 says those guys in Kiwi land have realy got them to pull like a school boy.
Good luck , and we'll see you out there again soon I hope.

[Old6rodder]

Yeah, the slant's a tough engine to shave weight off. One of the guys on the /6 site's gotten an aluminum one with a one-off aluminum head below 300 lbs. with a lot of fiddling. Not an undertaking for those short of drive. :D

Your banger idea sounds good to me. I see not a thing wrong with reverse engineering to get to the concepts you want. We did that with our smog era SUs, reworked'em right on back to the correct period.

[FULLY SIX RACING]

hi ted

rule # 13 as from the OZ HA/GR RULES is as follows

13. Flathead v8 or in line, pre 1962 inline engines with stock cylinder blocks only. No OHV V8s or V6s.

cant see "NO PUGS ALLOWED" in item 13

[homer78]

Welcome to the dark side .;)

[teda265]

The motor is from a 404 Peugeot but the 403 were sold around the same period 1955-1960's, the 403 looks like the car detective Colombo(aka Peter Falk) drove in the TV police show.
Some of the spec's of the motor are 84mmx73mm bore x stroke 80HP SAE at 5600rpm stock & 132 lb torque.
The conversion should be straight forward as i've been running a Peugeot 4 speed gearbox via a torque tube and worn drive diff set up in my HA/GR i'm already racing. It seems to be holding the power from the adapted stock 225ci slant 6 motor. (minus one burnt out clutch)

[Ron Golden]

DO IT!!! Sounds perfect to me. I like 4-bangers.

Ron

[QQMOON]

I would think the "IN THE SPRIT" would not mean 4cyl i could be wrong

Austrailan or American Origin would be in the Sprit

QQ

[krooser]

I would think the "IN THE SPRIT" would not mean 4cyl i could be wrong

Austrailan or American Origin would be in the Sprit

QQ

An A banger would be OK... that's a 4 cyl. I'm considering a TR3 engine... or a slant six. I have both in my junk pile.

[vectorsolid]

I would think the "IN THE SPRIT" would not mean 4cyl i could be wrong

I feel, to oversimplify the whole "spirit" thing, the spirit is "in the doing", not in the rules, per se'. No easy task. ;)

[QQMOON]

An A banger would be OK... that's a 4 cyl. I'm considering a TR3 engine... or a slant six. I have both in my junk pile.

I would even go as far as to say a Banger with a OHV conversion would be welcome as it,s in the pioneering "Sprit" that make,s it special to have a European engine in the rails just aint right

QQ

[97]

I would even go as far as to say a Banger with a OHV conversion would be welcome as it,s in the pioneering "Sprit" that make,s it special to have a European engine in the rails just aint right

QQ


What about a Banger (Model A or B) with a blower? :D:D:D:D

[krooser]

There were a lot of European cars dragging during the early days... some with American engines and some with their original powerplants... my brothers '55 XK140 was a regular.

[ScottV]

This got me to thinking, the Triumph 2.0 liter 4 is pretty stout at just over 100hp stock. I have seen them make an easy 130hp in a streetable package and 200hp in full on race car.

Hmmmm ....

ScottV

[pants fit]

Well just as an FYI, here on Wrong Island my son and i are going Pinto Power.
2.3 litres, 97 inchs of pure mushoom pulling power. I never expect to meet anyone from th site so i am building in the spirit while trying to conform to local bracket rules.
2.3 pintos are 140 cube

[FANTASY FACTORY]

2.3 pintos are 140 cube

I re read that a 100 times and kept saying someting aint right, but it will come to me, DUH! 97 hp?, Ok back to our reg scheduled dremellling.
http://i29.tinypic.com/2s823k4.jpg

[pants fit]

I re read that a 100 times and kept saying someting aint right, but it will come to me, DUH! 97 hp?, Ok back to our reg scheduled dremellling.
http://i29.tinypic.com/2s823k4.jpg
making a carb intake from injected ? Have you seen the inside of one that has already been done? It's like looking down on top of a christmas tree

[FANTASY FACTORY]

making a carb intake from injected ? Have you seen the inside of one that has already been done? It's like looking down on top of a christmas tree

Yes i did, but $100 for an adapter dont sit right with me, after 2 hrs of the dremel, I went to the junk room and pulled out a nice desk, 1.5 thick hi density and laminated on both sides. epoxy coated in & out, wet sanded then 3 coats of urethane, cured 2 hrs at 190'. DONE!
http://i28.tinypic.com/2el48pe.jpg
http://i27.tinypic.com/2v92mip.jpg
I am going to tap the injector ports for pipe plugs, then maybe in the future put a small NO2 kit on.

[Four Banger]

WooHoo! You're gonna love the torque that injector manifold gives you! I like your adapter/spacer/vibration supressor/heat sink!!!! That should do a good job.

[homer78]

Here is a couple of pics of mine before finishing off with the dremel.

[FANTASY FACTORY]

Here is a couple of pics of mine before finishing off with the dremel.
ooooh, thats purty !

Watch for my muffled immitation zoomie header next!

[FANTASY FACTORY]

WooHoo! You're gonna love the torque that injector manifold gives you! I like your adapter/spacer/vibration supressor/heat sink!!!! That should do a good job.
I also made a open plenum spacer the same thickness, in case there are any distribution issues, since each cyl has a seperate runner till the flange.
not sure if just the adapter portion is gonna be enough, track will reveal any issues.
I found a holley 450 4bbl on the shelf last nite, so i'll whip up another plate for that one, If i drop the sec link, i'll have a 225 there, the 350 2bbl then the 450 4 bbl. thats enough choice to get into trouble with.

[pants fit]

Yes i did, but $100 for an adapter dont sit right with me, after 2 hrs of the dremel, I went to the junk room and pulled out a nice desk, 1.5 thick hi density and laminated on both sides. epoxy coated in & out, wet sanded then 3 coats of urethane, cured 2 hrs at 190'. DONE!
http://i28.tinypic.com/2el48pe.jpg
http://i27.tinypic.com/2v92mip.jpg
I am going to tap the injector ports for pipe plugs, then maybe in the future put a small NO2 kit on.
I'm talking about the inside of the plenum. If you look at the top you have 4 single tubes, if you start at the center and grind them to the outside so it looks like this /\
from a side view in both directions, it looks like looking down on top of a Christmas tree or a broadhead from an arrow if you bow hunt. This will allow the fuel to distribute more evenly. Hope it helps Jim

[Four Banger]

On our Pro Four oval track cars, we had the best luck with the 350 Holley. We tried the 500, and used a couple different thickness spacers. Lap times had almost no variation between the 350 and 500, but throttle response off the corner was much better with the 350 and a 2 inch spacer. Since getting off the line is critical to et when drag racing, I'd use the 350 with a tall spacer (2 or 2&1/2 inch. Our engine was 2330cc, with about 12.5 to 1 squeeze, and a very nicely reworked oval port head with a Crane roller cam (234 duration and 486 lift if I recall correctly). We turned it 75-7600 rpm, and it pulled like a log skidder from the apex to the next turn on any size track we ran, from a tight quarer mile, to a half mile tri oval. You have an awesome carb/spacer/intake package there. That intake can be milled down at least 1/2 inch inside, if you desire more plenum area. But it's critical, just as Pants Fit said, to blend those four ports together in the center, to form a nicely rounded point in the center. If left flat, you will have very poor distribution, and possibly criticaly lean out one or more cylinders. I have no idea what you have planned for the rest of the engine, but here are a couple things we learned from sweat, blood, and general hard luck. On these engines, there is a ton of power to be found, if you spend a LOT of money. However, the difference between a full tilt animal (unreliable), and a VERY strong engine (as reliable as the sun) isn't all that much, except in the wallet. Build it to turn around 65-6800 rpm, and you need almost no trick parts. Stock rods and pistons work just fine up into the mid 6000 range. Also, port work just below the valve bowl (from the valve seat upward about an inch) gets you about 90 percent of the benefit of a full on expensive port job. Mill the block about .050, and mill the head all the way down to the lower intake bolt holes. That will give you around 11.75 to 12 to one compression. Buy an adjustable cam sprocket. Do NOT be afraid to use a hydraulic lifter cam. These work well, and are ZERO mainenance. In my Mini Stock I bought a used cam with only .430 lift, and retarded it 2 degrees. I used STOCK hydraulic lifters, and it pulled strongly up to 6600 rpm. My car weighted 2200 pounds with me aboard, and even with the super light clutch and flywheel, it would leave the pit road like it was fired out of a cannon. With a stock flywheel it would be awesome at the drag strip. You're going to LOVE this project....! PM me, and I would be glad to help in any way.

[97]

Yes i did, but $100 for an adapter dont sit right with me, after 2 hrs of the dremel, I went to the junk room and pulled out a nice desk, 1.5 thick hi density and laminated on both sides. epoxy coated in & out, wet sanded then 3 coats of urethane, cured 2 hrs at 190'. DONE!

http://i27.tinypic.com/2v92mip.jpg
I am going to tap the injector ports for pipe plugs, then maybe in the future put a small NO2 kit on.


With the carburettor mounted that way there is a possibility that the forward main jet will become exposed during a run and cause a lean out condition on the front two cylinders. The Holley should really be fitted with the bowl facing forward so that fuel is driven back against the jets for drag racing.

[FANTASY FACTORY]

Pants / Four, Thanks for the feed back. ya cant see it, but the block IS TAPERED, Going from the oval 2bbl, out to match the four port, I made an additional block that is open that can go in between intake and shown adapter,. http://i27.tinypic.com/2wrqgrb.jpg
I though about tapering the cloverleaf, but wasnt sure how far up the water jacket came, so i am making a clay mold to cast a cone to epoxy in. I dont plan on throwing my wallet at this project, I might shave the head and go up one click on the cam, thats it! this mostly an engineering exercise, (yea right).

[FANTASY FACTORY]

With the carburettor mounted that way there is a possibility that the forward main jet will become exposed during a run and cause a lean out condition on the front two cylinders. The Holley should really be fitted with the bowl facing forward so that fuel is driven back against the jets for drag racing.

All 4 cyliners are running to a common plenum now, and I only wish this thing would leave hard enough, or turn fast enough to expose the jets!
Thanks for the vote of confidence!
I'll be happy to bust 10.00 in the 1/8!
Mostly i just want to cruise the pits with my ww1 skid lid and goggles on!

http://i30.tinypic.com/x2820j.jpg

[bobw]

This is an interesting engine build to watch.
Four Banger, how many ponies did your race engine produce?

[Four Banger]

Bob, our engine was right at 200 hp. It had an oval port head that had the port floors epoxied flat, and mated to the d port intake. Flowed like a mo-fo! It had Kieth Black hyperutectic pistons, and stock rods with arp bolts, stock crank, balanced. It has a high volume pump and a good oil pan. It used a Mallory Unilite distributer, and a Schoenfeld header with 1&5/8 primary tubes and a 3 inch collector. The Crane hydraulic roller was .480 lift and around 234 duration @ .050 as I recall, (my memory isn't what it once was) We ran the thing as close to 7500 rpm as we could gear it at a specific track, but I don't recall ever going over 7800. That thing was as reliable as tomorrow.
Fantasy, don't worry about striking water on that intake. Just go down about 1 inch and blend the four holes toward the center. When you're done, it should look like four eggs laying with the narrow ends pointed toward the center, and there will still be a flat spot in the middle about the size of a dime, or slightly smaller. You can build up a little point in the center with epoxy, and blend it into the four holes. It will be beneficial to have about an inch of plenum area above that highest center point. Don't worry about not spending too much on the thing. The details get good results on these motors. Buy a cheap hydraulic cam with around .430 lift or thereabouts. With the stock valves and porting, you wont see much benefit to a larger cam. On the exhaust side, see if you can find a factory Ford Ranger header, and run a 2 1/2 inch pipe off the collector back about 3 feet. This will make a sweet combination. If you don't want to spring for an adjustable cam sproket, mill the head .085, and turn your cam sprocket around backward. That will bring the cam timing back to near zero. You'll be suprised how much snap this little guy will have! By the way, what are you thinking for a transmission??

[FANTASY FACTORY]

WOW, did this thread run away., 200 hp at 1200 lbs is good for a 10.30 according to the MOROSO dream wheel!. @130mph!
Trans.. well i got the c3 under the bench, its fesh, but i want to put a glide behind it with one of those hydro clutch external dumps you guys use on the chevy's. looks like the adapter for ford 4cyl/chevy is gonna be another home made piece, My bud has an extra chevy engine plate from his scatter shield set up, maybe a few holes and wallah.?? If not, i'll just shoot a trans-go kit in the c3, We scored a ford 8 inch at the SPOT last nite.

[Four Banger]

Personaly, I'd use the C-3 for a couple reasons. First, it will bolt right up to your engine, and you already have a good one. Also, it is much more compact around the bell housing area. Second, A buddy of mine decided to use a powerglide in his Pro Four car, behind his twin cam Nissan engine. He eliminated the converter in favor of the direct drive and pump valve set up you previously mentioned. The combination of his lack of flywheel torque effect, and the extra power it took to turn the glides pump, just KILLED his low end snap.....the car was a TURD off the corners, and he had quite a bit of power, too. When when you eliminate the torque converter, and use a pump valve, two things happen. First, with just a flex plate you lose your bottom end torque. Second, the valve that vents off the pump pressure is very touchy. Moving the car from a dead stop becomes something like shifting into second or third gear in a manual box, and trying to take off at an idle. It's jerky, and very hard on the clutch packs. This works okay when you're talking about a 600 horsepower V-8 in a 2900 pound Late Model Sportsman car, but it's gonna SUCK when you only have a little four banger with maybe 150 pounds of torque. These valves usualy are so touchy that I think 9 times out of ten, you would red light just trying to stage. The little C-3 is by far your best bet if you must run an automatic, but you'll need a very loose torque converter, and some low rear gears to get off the line. Both require spending more money....a sad reality of racing. Given my druthers, I'd druther use a Mustang or Ranger four speed, with the heaviest flywheel I could find. If you want an automatic, use the little C-3. Just remember that with a little motor, rpms are your friend!

[FANTASY FACTORY]

The Voice of experience wins again, the c3 came with the engine, and yea its is VERY compact! The 8 inch rear thats coming already has a set of 4.? somethings in it.
scored a pair of knarly cragar SS 14's last night. FREEBIE!, gonna bead them and redo in flat zinc and bar b que black for a torque thrust look!

[Four Banger]

I gotta tell you, thinking about doing more with less has always been one of my favorite things. I made the decision to finish up my Morris Minor engine swap (Toyota 3TC Hemi and 5 speed and 3.70 rear end into my 67 Morrie Convertible) before I start on my HA/GR. But every day I look at the west wall of my garage, at all those parts I have waiting.....and my ADD starts kicking in again. I'm just foaming at the mouth to get started on my "Time Machine". I figure about two more good weeks, and Mo's heart transplant will be finished, and the fecial material is gonna hit the rotating oscillator!!! And like yourself, my deal will be a wee bit different from the rest, although it is not the drive train, but rather the chassis that will be odd!

[FANTASY FACTORY]

HA talk about distracted, i have an L88, and an LS-6 under the bench, and a 22 year old son, the work in progress chevelle got totaled, and i lost interest in building another streeter, although the streeter was to keep me away from the track, talk about full circle. He did 8 years in Jr. Dragster, then 3 years in pro et with my SBC S-10. sold the S-10 for the chevelle, well.. round we go..
For the chassis, i am ordering the t-bucket chassis from spirit set up with mounts for BBC and th400, ya know just in case! contingency plan and what not.