Mechanical Brakes Rebuttal?

[Bigcheese327]

[ QUOTE ]
First it is your car and build it anyway you want. But why do you think hydraulic brakes have more stopping power than mechanical brakes. Both systems have the SAME stopping power if the systems are properly maintained. Both can be dangerous if not maintained. The only advantage to hydraulic brakes is they do not need the periodic adjustments that mechanical brakes need. I find it interesting that mechanical brakes are often thought as somehow being less "powerful" than hydraulic brakes. The brakes are not really "hydraulic" only the mechanism that actuates the brakes is hydraulic. In a stock Model A the weakest link is the tires. Model A tires are thin and will skid long before the brakes reach their limit. If you use modern wide tires then the weak link will be the drums and shoes. Since both hydraulic and mechanical brakes can lock up the wheels the drums and shoes will determine power and fading.
It might be that some people have owned Model As with poor (dangerous) brakes and they decided that hydraulic brakes would fix the car. So the installed hydraulic brakes including new drums and shoes. Well after that the car would stop much better. However had they kept the mechanical system, adjusted it correctly and put on new shoes and drums they would have achieved the same goal, a safe braking system.

Lastly many people put in a hydraulic system and use parts from very old cars. Hydraulic cylinders are the weak part of the system. Many are made of iron/steel and are very prone to rust. If you install old cylinders you are asking for trouble down the road. Once they get pitted they no longer seal well and you will have poor brakes.

OK as I said up front it is your car and you must IMHO build it the way you want. Please yourself first. But in well maintained cars hydraulic and mechanical brakes have the same stopping power.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was the most vehement response I got on the AHOOGA website when I posted asking for advice regarding adapting late-model hydraulic brake parts to the backing plates and drums on original Ford mechanical brakes, and damned if I can't figure out a good response to this arguement. And this guy stuck to this even after I explained that I wanted to run a flathead V8 with this setup. He is of the opinion that the only reason manufacturers changed to hydraulic setups was because of cost concerns. So, how about it guys? "The safety of steel from pedal to wheel"?

[Unkl Ian]

[ QUOTE ]
But in well maintained cars hydraulic and mechanical brakes have the same stopping power.


[/ QUOTE ] You can't reason with crazy people.

[lowsquire]

the guys an idiot and a luddite.(and probably a restorer!)

theres no point trying to spell it out to him.
advances in the design of brakes werent just made to reduce cost,they also improve safety through efficiency
I know his arguments are vaguely logical,but that doesnt make him right.dont worry about him. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Bigcheese327]

Thanks guys, that's about what I thought. I remember an in-depth analysis of why "it'll skid all four tires if you lock 'em" isn't a good arguement for mechanicals (locking your brakes is idiotic for one...) on here, but it's been so long I didn't remember specifics. The Ford Barn guys are a lot more helpful.

[Crease]

Yeah, mechanical brakes are great.............til your goin a 100 and you want to stop.

Discussed this with Steve Beck a few months ago. If your gonna run stock drop with a hopped up banger, might as well stay mechanical. If your gonne run a drop axle, you've got some work to do just to make the mechanicals work right. You might as well just switch to Juice brakes.

[Fraz]

Like to see a mechanical setup stop a 5000lb land barge doing 75-80+ in a panic stop and not lockup or take longer than half a mile to stop.

[Machinos]

Henry Ford was wrong in the 30's and this guy is wrong today. I can't think of a good response for you to give him because it's just such a completely open-and-shut topic that anyone arguing against the advantages of hydraulic brakes has to be a moron.

[modernbeat]

[ QUOTE ]
it'll skid all four tires if you lock 'em

[/ QUOTE ]

As long as you're running 3.25 inch wide tires!

Ever driven a car with power brakes when the power went out? Remember how hard you had to push on the brakes to make them effective? There is a similar difference between the power applied at the pedal and the power applied at the drum between mechanical and hydraulic brakes.

[metalshapes]

All things beeing equal, you would still have a problem making all the shoes grab at EXACTLY the same time ( with the mech setup).
The only manufacturer that really solved that ( that I know of) was Bugatti, they used a complicated system with cables, and something similar to a rear end diff, to connect those cables to the pedal. ( maybe it was a outside mounted handle, I cant remember)

[Crease]

Darn good point! Hadn't even thought about that.

[DrJ]

[ QUOTE ]

Ever driven a car with power brakes when the power went out? Remember how hard you had to push on the brakes to make them effective? There is a similar difference between the power applied at the pedal and the power applied at the drum between mechanical and hydraulic brakes.

[/ QUOTE ]
There were vaccuum servo assisted mechanical brakes on cars.

I think he's totally right, within the perameters of what he was talking about, an otherwise stock model A that tops out at 55MPH on good gas.

Lets face it, even hydraulic piston actuated brakes are mechanical in action when the motion gets to a mechanical shoe moving into contact with a mechanical drum or moving piston mechanically moving a brake pad against a mechanical rotor.

And that Bugatti system of gears and cables was ingenious. I have diagrams of it around here some place... I'll look for them... Don't hold your breath though

[Machinos]

Yeah, maybe if you got a really big vacuum booster to push the pedal on a mechanical system for you it'd brake decently, but otherwise it's just NOT as good. The hydraulic force multiplication you get from a properly-sized master cylinder is much better than what you can get from a mechanical system, not even counting the aforementioned problem of making all the brakes work at exactly the same time.

If all you were doing is driving your perfectly restored 1930 low-end economy car to church on Sundays and in the occassional parade, yeah, mechanical brakes might be just fine. But even if you were the best threshold brake master on the face of the earth, uneven braking even at 55mph is so obviously unsafe that this guy's claims about unreliable and faulty hydraulic systems (tell it to the last 80 years of automotive development...) pale in comparison.

[mecutem]

I wasn't going to say anything here on this topic........but I feel I should add something. First don't take this as me taking sides with anyone. I do believe there is a place for mechanical brakes even today.

I drive a deuce tudor with a V8. Its stock right down to the mechanical brakes and 6 volt system. Who ever set the brakes up years ago must have known what they were doing. The v8 moves the car along nicely and the brakes stop the car just fine. Even at 50mph coming up to a traffic light. No hard pedal and the car stops easy.

I never have to worry about a burst line or hose. No master cylinder to leak or go bad. If the mechanicals were so inferior to hydraulics why would Henry produce the setup for so many years after hydraulic brakes became popular? Well I guess I would just like to say I am very impressed by the mechanical brakes on my stocker. I would not switch to hydraulic if someone offered to do it for me for free. I know its a stocker and I don't go 100 mph down the streets but for normal driving I feel the brakes are plenty adequate.

I am a hot rodder not a restorer. I do appreciate restored cars and all the oddities that go with them. I just happen to own a stocker with mechanical brakes that work great and no one ever wants to believe me. When I read the top post I thought now there is a guy who will beleive me when I rant about how good my mechanical brakes are.

[Deuce Rails]

Those Ahooga guys also argue against air filters...

[porknbeaner]

I just skimmed the response to the mechanical/hydraulic debate, so I'm sure that I'm gonna say the same as someone else but...

First off I ran a mechanical brake (yea just one) on my hawg for years. Two reasons the one I told "I'm Hardcore", and two no cash (it's a long story and way OT). They stopped the bike most of the time. So I'm not totally against mechanicals.

Now on the the question. All things being equal (IE shoe width, diameter, material) and the same amount of pressure is applied at the brake they will do the same amount of stopping. Face it all brakaes are mechanical at some point.

Now a master cylinder is just a pump, it is used to actuate a hydraulic cylinder (wheel cylinder). The reason that the manufacturers went to hydraulics over mechanicals was not to save money. With the proper pump you multiply the force applied. So granny can apply the same pressure as an iron worker on the mechanical end of the brake system. Even though she can't apply the same pressure on the pedal end of the braking system.

If you must have mechanical brakes to get points on the concourse circuit them mechanicals is the way to go, other wise we should remember one very impotrant point. "WE are Hot Rodders", we drive modified vehicles, no one is going ot be impressed by them being in original condition.

Go fast cars need stop fast brakes, put a pump on it or spend all your time in the gym building up those muscles.

[Darwin]

There is no truth to the rumor that a hydraulic system will put more force to the brakes than will a mechanical system. All the master cylinder is doing is distributing your pushing force out to the wheel cylinders--period. There is no multiplying factor here. Mashing the pedal on early non-Bendix juice brakes supplies the same force as mashing on a stock Model A mechanical setup. Of course adding a vacuum powered booster changes that dramatically but adding the same booster to mechanicals would do the same thing. The main power difference comes when the self-energizing Bendix brake parts are added to the mix. Due to their design, which captures some of the inertial energy of the car and increases shoe pressure on the drums, a fair amount of "free" force is created by Bendix brakes. Early Ford mechanical brakes can be set up with what is called a "floater" mechanism that goes some of the way towards achieving a self-energizing effect. In general this is an improvement but not as much as provided by the more complex Bendix system. "Theoretically" a mechanical system could be made as efficient as a hydraulic but when it comes down to drum brake hardware from which we actually have to choose then the best bet is Bendix hydraulics followed by non-Bendix early style hydraulics and then mechanicals.
Even if there were no mechanical advantage whatsoever manufacturers would have been forced to go to hydraulics at some point because fluid lines can be routed at will through a complex frame/body structure whereas mechanical brake rods require a straight shot back to their actuating mechanisms. The final "problem" with mechanicals is that although they can be make to work well they require somewhat more frequent adjustment and maintenance than do hydraulics to stay at their peak performance. For almost everyone they're going to be more trouble than they're worth.

[Hot Rod To Hell]

This guy is stupid for running an internal combustion engine in his car. Doesn't he know that steam works just as well? Or for that matter, what's wrong with having a couple of horses pull you around? It's much more efficient! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[tommy]

Yeah I repeated the same horror stories that were told to me by the guys that drove the wore out mech brake Fords in the 50's. I was shocked at how well they worked when I had my 36. They were completely rebuilt prior to me buying it. There are lots of moving parts to wear that rarely get replaced.

I sure as hell wouldn't put any money in a mech system, but rebuilt, lubed and properly adjusted, they do work as well as the Ford early hyd. system.

[Crease]

In theory mechanical brakes could be made to work as well as hydraulics. Brakes have gotten better over the years, one of the advances was the addition of hydraulics. Model A brakes just weren't meant to be used with a 200 HP motor. They were designed to stop A Model A rolling at 60 or so. Could you design a mechanical system that would do the job? Yes. Would it be a waste of your time? Yes.

[Bruce Lancaster]

"I posted asking for advice regarding adapting late-model hydraulic brake parts to the backing plates and drums on original Ford mechanical brakes"

This useta be done--Ansen offered hydraulic conversion kits for all '28-38 Fords through the mail order speed companies and JC Whitney in the fifties and sixties, These kits were NOT the usual '39-48 swap--they were original backing plates reworked on an exchange basis. They rotated the pates and redrilled them to orient the shoes like a hydraulic system, then plugged wheel cylinders that had integral adjusting mechanisms, I think from a '41 or so Chevy. Each kit also included bracketry to mount a normal '48 Ford master cylinder.
A big strike against A brakes for any purpose is thin drums that distort and overheat. Cast drums are available, but costly.
A HUGE problem is that there are MANY wear points in the mechanical system, and once you have 1/32" wear at 25 different places you are in pretty deep. NOS parts are all but gone, and fit and metallurgy of repro parts are dubious--anyone wanna try cast clevises?
'32 brakes in good shape are indeed very driveable--but again, any needed parts are getting rare and equalization is hard. '32 service brakes, by the way, are closely related to A, but are 1" bigger and came with real brake drums. If you want a good Quixotic project, they would be a really good and subtle upgrade on an A--you can have one of my sets for a good set of '39-48 drums!

[InPrimer]

I think that Henry Ford was the cheapest son of a bitch on this earth. He tried to milk anything and everything he could. His philosophy that... Paint it" any color as long as its black" proved it to me. The only reason he'd make changes is because he had to, case and point when he was outsold by Chevy in 27, he finally got rid of the T and also started to put color on his cars.He also recycled all the wood he could Check out the spare tire area in the 40, lots of leftover wood (I believe from crates memory eludes me) anywat nothing personal against the man, but to the original argument he had no choise but change to meet the publics demand IMO

[Unkl Ian]

Ford painted his cars Black,because it dried the quickest.Time is money.

[lowsquire]

Someone told me that A models exported to australia in knocked down form were wooded out with the crates they were packed in,the crates were the right thickness and this would explain aussie models having more wood in them than US cars.
Cheap, but clever. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Crease]

Post deleted by Crease

[Bigcheese327]

Evidently you don't read your posts in "flat" form. I posted asking this question because I have a set of '35 Ford wire wheels that I'd like to run on something heavier than a Model T. The centers of the early wire require support from the original mechanical drum that isn't present in the '40-'48 brake drum design. The obvious solution, suggested to me by a Street Rodder "Four Pack" article on British rods was to use VW brake guts in mechanical brakes from a wire-wheeled car ('28-'35). Being as I got little in the way of helpful response here I posted on AHOOGA and got flamed for suggesting hydraulics might be better. I've since discovered the Ford Barn, however.

[Crease]

Makes sense. Over my head, but I'll check with the Guru AKA dad and see if he has any insight.

[Darwin]

You can fit 35 wires up to just about any drum if you can make up the right thickness spacers for the center cup of the wheel. Most post '39 hydraulic drum setups will have the supporting bumps on the wheel center contacting the drum, or hub on later models, before the lug holes seat firmly onto the center area. Bolt the wheel up to the drum/hub being used and measure the thickness of the spacer needed with clay and have it made up. The idea of course is to have the bumps contacting the drum at the same time the lug holes are flush to the drum surface to provide maximum support for the wheel and to stress the wheel center the least. Varying aftermarket drums sold for early hydraulic brakes will differ in the size spacer needed. Usually only a center spacer is needed with no need for it to have holes drilled for the bolt pattern. Avoid the temptation to use washers on the lug bolts to space the wheel properly. The holes are so close to the support bumps that this is a poor not to mention frustrating way to do it.
Using a genuine 35 drum is possible I suppose but good flippin' luck finding such an animal in real usable shape. Better to go with later hydraulics and fit the wheel up properly to the drums. All things considered I think the best setup these days is Wilson Welding Lincoln Bendix-style backing plates and American made cast iron brake drums. The easiest, and of course most expensive, way of all is to just order up some 16" Streetrod Wires which don't have the annoying bumps and will bolt up to anything no problem. No problem except of course the $240 each the things cost.

[Bigcheese327]

In fact, more than half the front and rear axles I encounter in the junkyard still have mechanical brakes attached. The rest of the axles are '42-'48 units, which are awfully wide, aren't they? Lincoln brakes? I thought the adaptor rings were for the Lockheed-type Ford brakes, I've never heard of them being used with Lincoln, F-1 or F-100 brakes- is it possible?

[DrJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Evidently you don't read your posts in "flat" form.


[/ QUOTE ]

I read the posts sitting up in a chair...
What the hell is "flat form"?

[Bigcheese327]

You always crack me up, Dr. J. "Flat Form" is the traditional HAMB way of viewing the messages with one post viewable beneath the next in chronological order until you reach the post limit for a page. "Threaded form" is the traditional message board way of reading messages with just the post title and the response title listed beneath one another in the way they "branched" as replies were made- this is like how AHOOGA and the Ford Barn are layed out. The HAMB and ChevyTalk use a from that allows either viewing.

[DrJ]

[ QUOTE ]
You always crack me up, Dr. J. "Flat Form" is the traditional HAMB way of viewing the messages with one post viewable beneath the next in chronological order until you reach the post limit for a page. "Threaded form" is the traditional message board way of reading messages with just the post title and the response title listed beneath one another in the way they "branched" as replies were made- this is like how AHOOGA and the Ford Barn are layed out. The HAMB and ChevyTalk use a from that allows either viewing.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the earliest HAMB I used I think it had them with responses out on limbs of what previous post the responder was "answering" like the RRT is now I think.
I thought this board only had the listed chronologically by date system... Is that something I have a choice of somewhere in MyHome preferences?

(Learn something new every day!)

[Bigcheese327]

I think it can be adjusted in "My Home" but you can also do it at the top of the page when viewing a thread.

General Discussion >> Hokey Ass Messasge Board Previous Index Next Flat Threaded

Just click the "threaded" button.

[DrJ]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it can be adjusted in "My Home" but you can also do it at the top of the page when viewing a thread.

General Discussion >> Hokey Ass Messasge Board Previous Index Next Flat Threaded

Just click the "threaded" button.

[/ QUOTE ]

COOL!
Thanks,
for pointing it out... I'll stick to flat, all those responses lined up just makes me dizzy, but it might be a good way to look at just the next post on a post with lots of eons to load pictures though.

[Rocknrod]

to many ifs...

If this, if that... which one is still in production? Which one do you have to say... well I hope I adjusted that cable, if I didnt it'll pull so hard in one direction I'd fall off a cliff!

Common sense? Nah... others are more apt with adjusting cables then the rest of us! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif