ID this Mopar Mill? [Archive]

porknbeaner

11-03-2003, 08:26 AM

I wouldn't offer a guess without engine numbers. The big Block MOPARs have the numbers cast into the side of the block.
If it works out to be a 413 and the original mill in the grocery getter it would be relativly rare. IE a keeper.
I could be mistaken but as I recall the POLYs have scalloped rocker covers resembling a 348-409 Chebby.
just my $.02 http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

tragic59

11-03-2003, 08:37 AM

Pork, you're right about the poly motors having the funky rocker covers, but it's very subtle. If I can figure out how to post a pic I will. But, all the big blocks have the distributor in the front of the motor. So, it ain't a 383, or a 413...

Fat Hack

11-03-2003, 09:04 AM

It's an early 318. People tend to call them "big block 318s" or "wide block 318s" or whatever else they can dream up. It's just a garden variety 318 Poly motor...the base V8 for those wagons. Hardly any performance parts available for them, but they do share at least SOME design characteristics with their newer "LA" 318 cousins.

The 'modern' 318 engines still have a funky pushrod angle that was neccessary to work with the Poly heads. If you look at the timing cover in the photo at the top of this post, you will notice it looks alot like the ones used on 273,318,340 and 360 Mopars of later vintage. The distributor being in the rear is also a dead giveaway...all big block Mopars have them up front at an angle.

Your only engine options back then were the slant six, the big block and the 318 Poly. If the wagon is dirt cheap, it'd make a cool cruiser...but with those rocker panels sitting on damp Michigan soil...I wouldn't be TOO hopefull!!

porknbeaner

11-03-2003, 09:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Pork, you're right about the poly motors having the funky rocker covers, but it's very subtle. If I can figure out how to post a pic I will. But, all the big blocks have the distributor in the front of the motor. So, it ain't a 383, or a 413...

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right twice, I guess that doesn't leave us many options for original motor. One of those Hot Rod 360s (MOPAR Crate) would be nice. Or a totaly worked 318 (especially if its a poly) would be the tops.

flyin'eye

11-03-2003, 10:17 AM

Poly 318s use a different bellhousing that the common BB mopar.Nothing will bolt in place of a poly 318, not a BB, not a SB. Trust me, I have tried every possible combination.Weiand made intakes for them, and you can get a cam made for anything. All in all, a pretty good engine, just hard to find parts for.

Fat Hack

11-03-2003, 10:20 AM

Yep, the 318 Poly is it's own unique animal! I was on the verge of buying a 66 Coronet 500 with a Sweet Poly Purebred under the hood...they're reliable as hell, but not very speedy!

Still a cool forgotten mill...I'd use one in a rod or kustom project just to be different if I happened onto one somewhere.

Hmmmmmm.... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rooster

11-03-2003, 11:49 AM

Now this latest twist on the thread is contradictory to Everything I've EVER heard about the Poly-motor's compatabilities. So let me just list what I've taken to be truth and let the debunking begin. Then again, I've got my info from reasonable sources too. Unfortunately they aren't my own two eyes and hands... so have at it...

The (wideblock) Polyspherical Chamber A-motors are internally compatible in several Key components to the later LA series engines.

1. CAMS are interchangable
2. CRANKS are interchangable, with small journal (not 360) LA engines.
3. DISTRIBUTORS are interchangable

DIFFERENCES include but aren't limited to;
Timing chain, cover, heads(or anything else that bolts externally), (intake, etc...).

Anyways, I don't suppose that rusty rockers would necessitate destruction and dismal doom for such a COOOOL wagon. Gotta remember that the wagons weren't generally owned by folks who kept them in stupendous condition with their 7.2 children in 9-passenger status. It's gotta be rare as hell! And it L 00 ks TITS!!!!! ta boot!!! If you're dedicated to doin something, have a friend who does 'crete come over with his laser level and shoot your garage floor, ///use a paint pen to write alla the variances in cement height around ANY possible stand location for supporting a vehicle on the floor, then Clear over them//// you can make stands for every specific vehicle you want to hold in place on that floor then and exp. bolt them into the 'crete. I've done two Mopar's like that, with 4 front and 4 rear stands holding the unitbody stationary to the factory alignment points while I cut alotta RUSTY SHIT out from between them and replaced. Rocker's, floor's, parts of the actual unibody rails, etc... There's NO reason this couldn't be done by a homebuilder type guy with some GUTS and ambition over a month or two time...

RileyRacing

11-03-2003, 12:08 PM

Isn't the poly 318 technically an "A" engine, with the 273,318,340 and 360 being "LA" engines? And the 350, 361 and 383 are "B" while the 413,426 (non hemi) and 440 are "RB". It's been awhile since I read about the terminology, but I think that's how they break down. I might know of a Desoto that a poly would look at home in... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I posted before on this but check out a site called 62-65dodge.com or something like that. He built up a poly for quarter use. It was pretty cool, but really $$$$

Jay

roadstar

11-03-2003, 12:21 PM

It's the old 318. Not good for anything except making THAT wagon go down the road in it's day. Or if you need to replace one in acar that aready has one. Other than that I wouldn't bother with it.

Now lets get back on the subject of the ever popular Small Block Chevy http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

flyin'eye

11-03-2003, 01:32 PM

I suppose it is entirely possible that Chrysler cast 2 different versions of the early 318, but I know from personal experience that there are differences in the bellhousing. For many years, I owned a 63 Dodge hardtop. Poly 318, pushbutton 727. I built a 383 for it after a few years of frustration in finding aftermarket poly stuff. The B/RB will not bolt up to a 318 torqueflite, at least not a 63. They continued to use the poly 318 until 66, with the LA 273 coming out in 64(?), I suspect that 64-66 poly 318's may share bolt pattern with the LA. My guess(and only a guess...) is that the pre 64 318's used the same boltpattern as the earlier poly motors, most of which came with a cast iron version of the torqueflite.

Fat Hack

11-03-2003, 01:57 PM

The Poly 318 does share a few design similarities with it's later siblings. The "A" engine came with polyspherical combustion chambers and used a funky lifter angle that ran the pushrod through the center of the head.

The newer "LA" engine used conventional inline valves, but the old lifter placement was retained...explaining the odd angle on pushrods in the newer engines. (They don't run straight from the center of the lifter to the rocker arm...they travel at an angle).

Dick Landy used to perform extensive lifter valley mods on 340 race engines to correct this "problem" so that the engines could live above 7000rpm in Pro Stock use. The 116 degrees of seperation from the lifter bores on one bank to the other were reduced to an optimal 100 degrees by Landy. The severe 116 angle was a carry-over from the polysphere design. To look at a diagram of how the pushrods relate to the rocker arms, the angle makes sense for a poly, but not for a standard wedge. A little hiccup on Chrysler's part...but not a real issue unless you are shooting for ultra high revs.

I don't know about parts interchangability between the older and newr 318 engines, but I have also heard that some stuff will swap out. Obviously, intake manifolds, cylinder heads and other unique parts won't...but some internal parts were retained. I believe that lifters are a direct swap, although I'm not 100% positive on camshafts.

At any rate, the engine in question at the head of this thread is a 318 poly. Like their slant six relatives, they run forever...with 100,000 miles being the break-in period for them! Not the best performers in the Mopar line-up, but a rock-solid, dependable OHV engine for sure!

There's a Dodge version of that wagon on e-bay now with the same 318 poly in it for about $300. Cool low-buck cruisers with a reliable drivetrain...good parts haulers or family trucksters!

scarliner

11-03-2003, 02:10 PM

Looks to be a 318 poly motor.I am no expert on these,but I do have one.I am saving it for my 32 plymouth project.I got this from a fellow,whos dad had taken it out of a 58-61 plymouth and had put it in a farm grain truck.When we first talked, i was hoping it was a hemi, but after seeing it I was glad it wasnt,I think these are not near as common.I have talked to several people about these and they all say that they are not a big performer,but a very dependable and stout engine.Heres a pic of mine.

Fat Hack

11-03-2003, 02:13 PM

Cool mill, Scarliner...love those dual quads!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

porknbeaner

11-03-2003, 02:53 PM

Rooster,
You right about the Poly block. You can put the 360 crank in if you turn the journals down. I don't recall what displacement you get but the stroked 318 was real popular with the short track guys through the late 70s.

Now onto the poly head, if your willing to take a dremmel to em they will out breath most of your later 318 heads. Granted the early 340 head is a better subject for a hot rodder, but they are more scarce than speed parts for poly.

You don't find a lot of swap meet speed parts for the poly, but who wants to buy a 40+ year old cam for their rod. If you contact any of the older cam grinders (erson, isky ...) they still have the old profiles on record and will grind you a cam, ya just gotta wait. At least that's been my experience.

You can buy pistons and rings for just about anything from most of the major manufacturers. Again you may have to wait a day or two. The rest of the parts are the same way. Not impossable to build if you want, and it is capable of serious zot. No doubt there are easier and cheaper engines to build. Its just a mater of taste.

On the other hand it is a crap motor, so if the wagon gets bought, I'll take it. It would look good in the place of the B/RB I'm planning to put in the Dodge. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

scarliner

11-03-2003, 02:58 PM

Hack, love your posts, look forward to reading them always good for a smile or two.Yea, the way I have this engine figured,performer or not, I might as well look cool and at the same time burn up whatever gas supplies there are left in north america!Only problem is trying to decide which car to put it in, my 32 ply sedan-sedan delivery project or a 33 chopped-leaded ply coupe body I got lucky and found.I love the coupe, but think I am two old and fat to ride in it,very far.

scarliner

11-03-2003, 02:59 PM

32 ply pics

Fat Hack

11-03-2003, 03:03 PM

Dang, Scarliner...you're right...you shouldn't build the coupe...it's too small for ya! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

(But I know a skinny guy in Michigan who would gladly take it off your hands...to keep him from doing something silly with a four door DeSoto!!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

Build the sedan with that killer Polynesian Powerhouse!!

RileyRacing

11-03-2003, 05:12 PM

I resemble THAT remark http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Jay

Fat Hack

11-03-2003, 05:14 PM

I wondered how long it'd take you to see that!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

RileyRacing

11-03-2003, 05:16 PM

Just got here... been a LOOOOOONG day http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Bugman

11-03-2003, 07:16 PM

PM Mel. She's the Poly Queen. Knows more about them than most since rebuilding the 326 poly in her '59.

Also I think they came in 276, 303, 313(canadian), 318, and 326, with 318 being the most common.

The Tex Smith Complere Chrysler Hemi book has a whole chapter on rebuilding and improving the 318. Also has alot of internal parts interchange info, and parts suppplier contacts. In my opinion, worth the price for any "A" Poly owner.

-Bugman Jeff

Mel

11-03-2003, 08:39 PM

Geez Jeff... don't know if I'd go that far! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

But I did put a lot of research into my '59 dodge coronet when I was deciding if I should rebuild the one year/ model 326 poly or just opt for a hemi.

I agree that it's probably a 318 due to the placement of the distributer.

And there are 2 versions of wide block polys, but only one 318. The hemi based polys are in displacements of 241, 259, 270, 301, 315, 325, 331, and 354. This id numbers on this series is found between the valley cover and the front of the block.

The A series polys are in displacements of 277, 301, 303, 313 (canadian), 318, and 326. The id numbers on the A series are found the the front of the block under the head on the left side.

The polys can be made to run extremely well. I've had mine running with a rod knock for around 800 miles and she runs like a champ, just kinda loud.

They're really tough engines so I believe it's cost effective if you're don't plan on racing... all you need is the right tranny and they'll put out a ton of torque.

~Melissa

Bigcheese327

11-03-2003, 09:02 PM

To further confuse the issue: Does that mean the 361 is not a Poly? What is it? Like a baby 383? My Dad and I always thought a dual-quad 361 in an open-wheeled Dodge or Plymouth roadster would be reet on.

Fat Hack

11-03-2003, 09:24 PM

Yep, the 361 is just a smaller big block....distributor in front, external oil pump, etc.

roadstar

11-03-2003, 10:01 PM

Mel you are just way too cool. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Mel

11-03-2003, 11:59 PM

I was just talking small block polys since that's what he's got... now if you wanna know about big block polys that's another thing. And don't forget about the Plymouth Hy-Fire, Dodge Red Ram, and Chrysler Spitfire polys. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

~Melissa

four-thirteen

11-04-2003, 12:20 AM

For some other good information on polys, bigblocks and early mopars check out http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.com/welcome.html Poly is a good motor. Look at a big chevy, then look at a mopar poly. See any similarities? you can really hog out the ports and make em work good. A guy on the site above built a pretty stout one, make like 500hp with a good cam and +400 cubes. Like all mopars, they can get the shit kicked out of them and still keep the rods inside the crankcase. The later small polys are a part of the small block family, along with the LA 273, 318, 340, 360. lots of interchangeable stuff.

Just for a quick refernece, mopar big blocks where made from '58-'78 in sizes (in chronological order) 350, 361, 383RB, 383, 413, 426, 426 hemi, 440, 400. These animals had their own tranny bolt paterns, motormounts and everything else. In genral, everything is interchangable, 'cept a few tall deck/low deck things like intake, pushrods and cranks. Dave

Rooster

11-04-2003, 08:04 AM

Talked to an old family friend last nite who basically told me that my 'facts' were fuzzier than the things he 'remembers'!!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

He said that the bellhousing pattern mates to some of the early Hemi's, not the b-motors introduced long after the A-motors...oops...

Also said that it's the early HEMI cams that swap into em...
but didn't remember if it was the later LA lifters that get used.

And that the INTAKES are compatible to some Hemi's, but couldn't remember which. And ass we all know, those don't interchange with each other even. He didn't remember if it was the smaller (narrower) intake or the wider one that goes on a poly motor.

Went on to say that with the addition of a few threaded holes in the block, that you could put HEMI heads onto a POLY block. Again didn't remember WHICH heads, but asked instead, why on earth would you when there's so much potential in the poly heads you'd already have?

Even though his recollections were a bit foggy, I respect his 'fuzz' as much as anybodies and he gave the impression that the potential of the A-motor was more than others of the day. That with All the interchangealbe parts you could do it right and "Woop the Dogsnot outa any Nailhead Rocket or Y-block". Sounds about right to ME... He gave some grumblings about weight and improvements over the years in reference to the sbc... But I'm figuring that he's right in one thing we've seen in this post alone. That pic above with the dual quads, factory stock to the aircleaners on a poly motor. Them are offa a HEMI !!!!

Here's another place to get info on what to do with a poly...HOT HEADS (http://www.hothemiheads.com)

STILL this post was about a BITCHIN WAGON!!!! And I'd love to have it, if I needed another hole in the head....

tragic59

11-04-2003, 08:48 AM

Some VERY god info on this subject can be found here:

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/318.html

If you read this article and follow the links in it, all the confusion about what fits what from which other MOPAR motors should be cleared up.

Bugman

11-04-2003, 09:12 AM

The "A" series of poly's will not swap into Hemi's. a very few parts will swap with Hemi's. Mostly just the timing set, but not the cam.

The earlier(pre '58) polys will convert to hemi's by using Dodge Hemi parts, but were not dealing with one of those here, so I won't go into details.

-Bugman Jeff

porknbeaner

11-04-2003, 09:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
To further confuse the issue: Does that mean the 361 is not a Poly? What is it? Like a baby 383? My Dad and I always thought a dual-quad 361 in an open-wheeled Dodge or Plymouth roadster would be reet on.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was talking to a buddy (a MOPAR NUT) last night. He was saying that the 361 was a low deck big block. I guess that would make it a baby 383.
I think he's probably right, all he's ever owned is MOPAR since before dirt.
If I could swing it I'd still like to have a Poly in my collection. Hell if enough people do it it could be the newest old school trend. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif History in the makin'