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T-Head
06-04-2010, 05:16 AM
T -Head was the GN you drove the old Bill Leath car?

No it was not, but Bill did call me when he heard about it.

The car was always in England up into a few years ago.

What a fun car other than starting. It has a removable kick starting handle which goes in from the side to the differential. If you get the routine down it is OK but with the high compression kicking it over is a chore.

It has a real neat sound that is just like a Ducati racing bike with a lopey idle because of the racing cams.

T-Head
06-04-2010, 07:29 AM
...

T-Head
06-04-2010, 12:55 PM
This is a 1916 Stutz Bearcat that was smuggled out from Cuba maybe about 20 yrs. ago. Whoever got it traded a load of news print paper for it. It first went to a dealer in the UK and a friend of mine bought and had it restored here in the US. I was fortunate to be able to take care of it for him while he owned it.

The Stutz had a 389 CI Wisconsin engine, some of the racers were 450's. This car has a set of the bigger cylinders on it which bring it out to 450 also and the extra power is very noticeable. It climbs hills like they don't exist.

T-Head
06-05-2010, 08:24 AM
The legendary Stutz collector A.K.Miller from Orange, Vermont in his 1916 Bearcat before he restored it.

T-Head
06-05-2010, 08:33 AM
Two more photos of the 200 Mile GN racing car and a photo of the SOHC four valve twin spark engine as restored by Charlie Smith in the UK.

gnichols
06-05-2010, 11:31 AM
Did you guys see this on the vintage photos thread? Armory racing? Any ideas? Gary
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/00670d8b18eaa56a_landing

twin6
06-05-2010, 03:29 PM
Red hot GN...

T-Head
06-05-2010, 04:33 PM
Red hot GN... Thats how they fumigate racing cars in the UK to get the bugs out of them.

T-Head
06-05-2010, 04:40 PM
Who can tell us about these unusual wire wheels on this Stutz speedster from 1914. The photo was taken in Sidney Australia in 1914.

The37Kid
06-05-2010, 05:24 PM
They are the same you would find on a King Alfonso Hisso. Love the looks of them.:) Who can tells us about these unusual wire wheels on this Stutz speedster from 1914. The photo was taken in Sidney Australia in 1914.

The37Kid
06-05-2010, 05:30 PM
Most likely Kingsbridge Armory on Long Island. Mom And Dad went there a few times in the late 1940's. Castor oil fumes had an effect on the crowd. http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/00670d8b18eaa56a_landing

T-Head
06-05-2010, 05:43 PM
[QUOTE=The37Kid;5306696]They are the same you would find on a King Alfonso Hisso. Love the looks of them.

Can anyone tell us about the company that made them?

Vintageride
06-06-2010, 08:50 AM
Who can tell us about these unusual wire wheels on this Stutz speedster from 1914. The photo was taken in Sidney Australia in 1914.


Post your question on the AACA site. Ivan Saxton from Australia seems to know the most about these type of wheels. I have read several posts where he provides valuable insight.

Vintageride

gnichols
06-06-2010, 08:55 AM
Most likely Kingsbridge Armory on Long Island. Mom And Dad went there a few times in the late 1940's. Castor oil fumes had an effect on the crowd.

Thanx... I've never been to an indoor race or any kind. It must have been a sight to see. I miss the smell of Castor oil... what does it do in heavy doses? Make the cars seem faster or the sounds more intense? LOL. Gary

T-Head
06-06-2010, 09:02 AM
Thanks for the idea, Ivan is a very knowledge person but I will never use the AACA site again. I started a photo thread there and myself and others put a lot of work into the most successful thread they ever had on there. Without even giving me the courtesy of an email they changed it all around and ruined it. I think since then it has gotten maybe 20 photos in the last five months and it is terrible. I'm finished with them.

T-Head
06-06-2010, 09:27 AM
...

Harley Gene
06-06-2010, 10:36 AM
Here's the latest update from Howard Kroplicks site. It has a guess who photo this week that this site will eat up quickly... Thanks Howard for a great site!
HG :cool:

http://tiny.cc/kh7ya

The37Kid
06-06-2010, 10:37 AM
I had the same idea, Ivan is a welth of knowledge, we should invite him to join the HAMB. The AACA site is a sorry site to visit unless you own a Buick. :rolleyes:Post your question on the AACA site. Ivan Saxton from Australia seems to know the most about these type of wheels. I have read several posts where he provides valuable insight.

Vintageride

Harley Gene
06-06-2010, 10:48 AM
Sorry mates, This will make it a little easier...
HG :cool:

http://tiny.cc/kawbs

T-Head
06-06-2010, 10:50 AM
Neat photos of a 6-70 Thomas Flyer racer - speedster with a 825 CI six. The first photo came from relatives of the family sitting in the car. The second and third photo came from an estate in Ohio. They are big and incredibly powerful cars. I have one in the shop now that we are rebuilding the engine for. The last photo shows the engine in the stand with a yard stick - 36" on it. Total length of the engine with flywheel is 61" long and the hood is 49". The crankshaft in the last photo is 53" long.

The37Kid
06-06-2010, 11:06 AM
There was a 1908 Thomas Flyer in the auction yesterday in Greenwich, Ct. nice looking older restoration, 1950's I'd guess.

T-Head
06-06-2010, 11:13 AM
There was a 1908 Thomas Flyer in the auction yesterday in Greenwich, Ct. nice looking older restoration, 1950's I'd guess.

Bonhams just had that car was just there on exhibit. It is a 4-60 and is a good one that was in the original Thomson Products collection. It was sold out of the Crawford Museum by Sotheby's in the early 90's? It went to the UK and now Bonhams has it back here for their Pebble Beach sale.

Did you have a good time yesterday?

The37Kid
06-06-2010, 11:36 AM
SO GOOD I started a thread here! Hope Chopshop does well there today with the Arnolt Bristol.

T-Head
06-06-2010, 11:38 AM
SO GOOD I started a thread here! Hope Chopshop does well there today with the Arnolt Bristol.

How about a link to the thread?

fur biscuit
06-06-2010, 11:39 AM
They are the same you would find on a King Alfonso Hisso. Love the looks of them.:)

Also the same wheels off a certain series of Peugot race cars.

great looking body!!!

Off to Sears Point to watch the vintage "racing". Will borrow the better halfs digital to snap some pics.

The37Kid
06-06-2010, 11:42 AM
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=481522 Think this will work.:rolleyes:How about a link to the thread?

twin6
06-06-2010, 12:37 PM
1907 Peking to Paris winners Scipione Borghese and Ettore Guizzardi, and their 7 litre Itala.

T-Head
06-06-2010, 01:50 PM
[QUOTE=fur biscuit;5308717]Also the same wheels off a certain series of Peugot race cars.

I have also seen this type of wheel on a Bugatti or two.

T-Head
06-06-2010, 06:16 PM
Amelia Island Concours Kissel Semi-Racer Coolant.

The37Kid
06-06-2010, 06:56 PM
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=994975&d=1275866144 (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=994975&d=1275866144)I've riden in that Kissel with that guy! ANOTHER Concours d'Elegance myth SHATTERED!:eek:

T-Head
06-07-2010, 08:53 AM
A jewel of a sprint car from the Kansas City Mo. area from the late thirties.

T-Head
06-07-2010, 09:21 AM
A very early racing car that was built in Los Angeles by a machinist.

T-Head
06-07-2010, 09:36 AM
QUOTE: 37KID
I've riden in that Kissel with that guy! ANOTHER Concours d'Elegance myth SHATTERED!

This 1912 Kissel belongs to a very good friend of mine and he has had this car about 20 years now. It spent a year or two here and I have driven it thousands of miles and he has since been extensively preparing it for the concours circuit as you can see and it has gone many, many more miles.

kurtis
06-07-2010, 09:37 AM
A jewel of a sprint car from the Kansas City Mo. area from the late thirties.

Great looking dirt car T-head. I seem to recall seeing this same car but in a rather worse for wear state later in it's life. The chrome framed cars were always beautifully built.

I have had this photo of a former racer turned street car but i've never found any info about it's history other than it was photographed for sale at a Mayfield car yard sometime in the Forties.

http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx289/kuretic/American%20Autoracing/Mayfields_04_1000.jpg

T-Head
06-07-2010, 10:28 AM
Kurtis.... That is a very well built car, someone might know something about it. I would be interesting to know what the V-engine? with narrow angle might be.

kurtis
06-07-2010, 11:05 AM
Well, i did a search and found an article here that says it's an Hispano-Suiza engine.
http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2009/12/22/mayfield-used-cars-customs-furrin-stuff-n-odd-racers

Maybe Michael might know it's history.

carl s
06-07-2010, 11:24 AM
http://winfield.50megs.com/Hisso.htm

T-Head
06-07-2010, 11:30 AM
Kurtis..... Thanks, turns out I have seen that post on Hemmings blog. Neat Car here is the other photo.

T-Head
06-07-2010, 01:15 PM
Ford racing car maker and speed equipment manufacturer Robert Roof tells all in a most interesting story.

Michael Ferner
06-07-2010, 04:56 PM
http://66.154.44.164/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=995454&d=1275918703

1937 Gus Schrader/Miller, photographed the year it was first raced. This was the same car that Schrader lost his life in, four years later, but by then it had been heavily modified. It looked different every year in Schrader's posession, and is thus easily dated.

Michael Ferner
06-07-2010, 05:03 PM
Well, i did a search and found an article here that says it's an Hispano-Suiza engine.
http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2009/12/22/mayfield-used-cars-customs-furrin-stuff-n-odd-racers

Maybe Michael might know it's history.

Doesn't look like a Hisso to me, but the car appears to be a two-man Indy Car! Will have to check a few pics, but not today - it's late here! ;)

T-Head
06-07-2010, 05:46 PM
Found a little time to study this car and the caption that came with it describing it as being Hisso powered is incorrect. The vee angle with I mentioned earlier is quite narrow which was unusual in the US at the time.

Compare it to the photo of an intact Hisso V-8 which has a much wider V-angle. These engines were used in many race cars with most having special crankcases and were called a half a Hisso and used only four cylinders.

Regardless this looks like an early thirties high quality Indy car judging by the frame and suspension. I am guessing someone spent a lot of time and money rebuilding this car for street use although it looks like it is still wearing racing tires. If that is the original racing tail and nose it should be able to be identified by them as they are quite distinct.

Can anyone identify the engine in this car...... Looks like and overhead V-8 with a narrow angle, possibly foreign?

*******

I thought about this a while longer...... and I think it may have a Wills Sainte Claire V-8. I found a photo of one which has the same narrow angle and the covers above the exhaust manifolds. If it is a Wills with the hood on we cannot see the longer cam housings of the distinctive OHC V-8. If it was raced with this engine that may make it easier to identify.

Incidentally they used to use the crankshafts out of these Wills V-8's in Model T racing engines as they had an 180 degree flat crank.

The37Kid
06-07-2010, 09:51 PM
The car is in the Midwest under restorationhttp://66.154.44.164/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=995454&d=1275918703

Harley Gene
06-07-2010, 10:54 PM
This is the mystery photo on the Vanderbuilt Cup site of Howard Kroplick. I an surprised that no one has named them. I guess it was toooo easy for you cats on here. I can name three of them. I don't know who the ones in the center are, Tommy Milton and Wilbur Shaw are obvious. I think Rickenbacher is on the end, but the other two have me stumped although the guy next to Rickenbacker is real familiar. What say ye of historical knowledge?
HG :cool:

fur biscuit
06-07-2010, 11:40 PM
This is the mystery photo on the Vanderbuilt Cup site of Howard Kroplick. I an surprised that no one has named them. I guess it was toooo easy for you cats on here. I can name three of them. I don't know who the ones in the center are, Tommy Milton and Wilbur Shaw are obvious. I think Rickenbacher is on the end, but the other two have me stumped although the guy next to Rickenbacker is real familiar. What say ye of historical knowledge?
HG :cool:

DePalma second from Right.

MrModelT
06-07-2010, 11:54 PM
I do not believe I have ever seen an image of this car before. Just judging by the radiator and hood it looks like a White but I do not believe they have much of a racing history other than the earlier steamers. The drivers coveralls maybe also have White printed on the front of them. Is this just another fairgrounds special of something better? It looks to be very well done which leads me to believe one of you out there may know something about this attractive racer.

Must be one hell of a special, as that looks loads bigger than the typical white gas cars (keep thinking model 30). But of course being White, there was a complete truck arm from which to draw all manner of heavy bits.

What a great looking car though.

Here is a '12 model 30 for comparison.

http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/White/12-White-DV-08-HHC-001.jpg


Good eye! It is definitely a White, but the reason it looks "beefier" and "stouter" than the lil' White GAF "30" is that it is actually a 60 hp, 6-cylinder White GF "Sixty" circa 1912 to 1914. It does appear to be more "professional" then your average "backyard special", but probably not a factory team car. It most likely started life as a Touring or a Roadster. I know of only one nicely restored example that currently resides in the Nethercutt Collection and previously to the Harrah Collection. It was original and unrestored and was purchased from the original owners, a family from Rye, NY who bought it but could hardly drive it due to the poor road conditions outside the town. As a result, the White sat in the barn..always washed and polished. On top of this, a White Co. service agent was sent to the family home to service and maintain the White every year through 1925! When Bill Harrah purchased it, it was in almost perfect running order.

T-Head
06-08-2010, 09:32 AM
Welcome to the racing thread, I have seen your T elsewhere and I really like it. Please post any good racing photos you many have and we also like Model T race cars here.

You maybe correct about the White being a six. I am aware of the big White six's and I know this has a longer hood. I have also seen quite a few racing cars with longer hoods to accommodate set back engines and possibly the steering box as we see the pitman arm coming out the side of the hood.

Before we say it is one we need to find a good photo of a six from the same side to compare hoods and steering box locations. I have seen a photo of one of the sixs from this side before I believe in one of the early club magazines.

T-Head
06-08-2010, 11:54 AM
This photo is has an old note on the back Howard S Wilcox – National 40. Looks like it my be circa 1910-12.

Buildy
06-08-2010, 12:07 PM
I`d say, as I believe the large goggle wiping cloth on his helmet was a style that ended for the most part after that time.

psalt
06-08-2010, 02:17 PM
[QUOTE=T-Head;5313495]Found a little time to study this car and the caption that came with it describing it as being Hisso powered is incorrect. The vee angle with I mentioned earlier is quite narrow which was unusual in the US at the time.

Compare it to the photo of an intact Hisso V-8 which has a much wider V-angle.
I thought about this a while longer...... and I think it may have a Wills Sainte Claire V-8. I found a photo of one which has the same narrow angle and the covers above the exhaust manifolds.


You have a sharp eye. My first thought was, look at the size of the exhaust. The Hispano V-8's were 11.76 aircraft engines and those pipes look like something off a moped. For a moment I was thinking inline four with exhaust ports on both sides like the Fronty AF16, but there are no carbs in the picture.

It does look like it has the tappet covers like the Wills V-8. I can see the confusion with the WWI Hispano, OHC, shaft drive, inline valve, V-8, forked con rods. Maybe Wills was inspired by Birkigt's masterpiece, but why the 60 degree V ? And those pipe are still a little small for 365 cu in....

T-Head
06-08-2010, 03:24 PM
Here is a link to go to to find all about the Wills Sainte Claire. http://www.willsautomuseum.org/

MrModelT
06-08-2010, 04:33 PM
Welcome to the racing thread, I have seen your T elsewhere and I really like it. Please post any good racing photos you many have and we also like Model T race cars here.

You maybe correct about the White being a six. I am aware of the big White six's and I know this has a longer hood. I have also seen quite a few racing cars with longer hoods to accommodate set back engines and possibly the steering box as we see the pitman arm coming out the side of the hood.

Before we say it is one we need to find a good photo of a six from the same side to compare hoods and steering box locations. I have seen a photo of one of the sixs from this side before I believe in one of the early club magazines.

Thanks for the welcome and glad I finally had a reason to get in on this one! I agree with you on the White, although I believe this is...or at least was a "Sixty" at one point as many of the parts appear to be White "Sixty".

Her is a copy from an original 1912 White series "GF" "Sixty" parts catalog showing the hood, radiator, and pitman arm tunnel in it's stock location.

..and a few other Racing pics for this thread. If some of these have already been posted, I apologize....there are just too many posts and I can't remember them all :D

T-Head
06-08-2010, 04:45 PM
MrModelT
Thanks for the welcome and glad I finally had a reason to get in on this one! I agree with you on the White, although I believe this is...or at least was a "Sixty" at one point as many of the parts appear to be White "Sixty".


Well, then that is good because now we know for sure that it probably is. Thanks for taking the time to find that illustration. Those big Whites are quite impressive, I have read about them in the past. I don't think they made many of them either.

Does anyone have any info about if White ever got involved in racing?

MrModelT
06-08-2010, 05:12 PM
MrModelT
Thanks for the welcome and glad I finally had a reason to get in on this one! I agree with you on the White, although I believe this is...or at least was a "Sixty" at one point as many of the parts appear to be White "Sixty".


Well, then that is good because now we know for sure that it probably is. Thanks for taking the time to find that illustration. Those big whites are quite impressive, I have read about them in the past. I don't think they made many of them either.

Does anyone have any info about if White ever got involved in racing?

They are quite impressive automobiles. My good friend Chris, "powerwagonmaniac" here on the H.A.M.B., and his dad Bill have a 1913 GAF "30" touring that I am privileged to helping on the restoration. They have had the car since 1971 and started to pull her apart in 1977, but got side tracked on their '34 Rolls PII Continental that they have had since '63.

The White has a interesting history that I wish I new more about. Early in it's life it was badly damaged in a serious wreck, most likely between 1913 and 1916 when it was still valuable enough to repair (any later and it most likely would have just been scrapped). The wreck was bad enough that it broke the left front frame horn clean off, mashed up the front springs (which were straightened), shattered the left front wheel, shattered the right motor mount on the aluminum crankcase, shattered the front aluminum transmission mount, shattered the right rear axle housing and mashed up the fenders bad enough that they found a new left front and made a new right rear. The spent a lot of time and effort welding, patching and riveting it all back together and put her back on the road. Not much else is known about its history except that it was driven very hard (most of second gear is gone) and was possibly used by the Oregon DOT in the 1920's and 30's. in 1977 we had a hard freeze so my buddy and his family drained all the cars so they would not freeze, but when the drained the White they only drained the radiator and forgot to drain the block. Needless to say it cracked (split it wide open). The motor was tired anyway, they started the resto.


Chris and I have the chassis mostly back together and are working on the engine and body. We have slowed a bit on the motor since we are looking for new bearings for the crank. The White engines have NO center mains (the crank is floating), just 2 huge roller ball bearings at each end....never seen an engine quite like it.

The37Kid
06-08-2010, 06:50 PM
This Franklin was at Hershey about 6 years ago, great unrestored car. The thing that amazed me was the overhead valve setup. SOMEHOW both intake and exhaust were in the same pocket. If there is a cross section illustration out there that someone could post it would be great to see. Welcome to the thread MrModelT, always liked your T.http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=996676&d=1276032651 (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=996676&d=1276032651)

MrModelT
06-08-2010, 07:24 PM
This Franklin was at Hershey about 6 years ago, great unrestored car. The thing that amazed me was the overhead valve setup. SOMEHOW both intake and exhaust were in the same pocket. If there is a cross section illustration out there that someone could post it would be great to see. Welcome to the thread MrModelT, always liked your T.http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=996676&d=1276032651 (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=996676&d=1276032651)


Thank you, happy to be joining in on the fun!

The Franklin engine design amazes me too, as does the fact that they used Full-Elliptical "buggy" springs (at all four corners!) on a car of that size...and a race car no doubt, and the fact that the frame is entirely wood in order to make is lighter. Brush has 'em beat though...they use an all wood frame and wood axles (metal end caps for the spindles, but the axle itself is a 5 or 6" dia. Hickory dowel). :D

I just love original "survivors" like this...they just have so much character! There is something about them for me that make you just want to drive it.

The 2 race cars I would just DIE to get behind the wheel of..even if it were just for a day, are the "New York to Paris" Thomas-Flyer and "Old Number 16"....and when I say "drive" I don't mean a lap around the block...I mean just me, the car and the open highway. I would love nothing more than to open up "Old #16" on a straight stretch and see what she would REALLY do :D ...let her run again like the old days.

...sorry got a little sidetracked :o

The37Kid
06-08-2010, 08:10 PM
OLD 16 lived up the road from me and it was driven to every meet as far as I know. T-Head wrote about his connection to it many pages back on this thread. Scroll back and ride with him in the T Head MERCER vidio.

Rapid Robert
06-08-2010, 09:22 PM
MrModelT, you will need to get in line behind me. I sat in the NY-P Thomas many years ago, but have always wanted to go for a spin. Just dream about Old 16. That would be a trip.
Bob.

noboD
06-08-2010, 09:31 PM
'37, this Franklin damned near ran over me when it was at Hershey. I was mesmerized listening and looking and walked right our in front of it. The valve arrangement on this Franklin is the same as the one I described to you at the Horseless Carriage tour. I'd also like to see some good detailed drawings if anyone has them.

The37Kid
06-08-2010, 09:37 PM
Just amazing how much ANTIQUE stuff is on the HAMB and NOT on another site isn't it?:eek::D

Mac the Yankee
06-08-2010, 10:46 PM
Just amazing how much ANTIQUE stuff is on the HAMB and NOT on another site isn't it?:eek::D

... more appreciation here, from what I understand...

MrModelT
06-09-2010, 12:38 AM
OLD 16 lived up the road from me and it was driven to every meet as far as I know. T-Head wrote about his connection to it many pages back on this thread. Scroll back and ride with him in the T Head MERCER vidio.

Peter Helck was an excellent custodian for "Old 16" because he saw her for what she really was and still is, a true American treasure. He also treated her how she was suppose to be treated, like a race car and drove the heck out of her for many, many years. I am so thankful that still remains the case all these years later..though she probably doesn't get drivin' as much as she should and they probably don't open her up and let her run like the old days....I would :D

I read in an article somewhere..it escapes me at the moment, that Old 16 is suffering from a worsening crack in the block that is allowing water in the oil pan and, as a result, the Ford Museum will drastically cut back or possibly stop her operation to prevent it from getting worse and causing damage. If this is true, it would be a terrible shame and a needless waste. Why not do what the Locomobile team would have done: pull her apart, fix the problem and put her back on the road stronger then before. I don't see why that could not be done without ruining her condition. It's a machine, they brake....fix it.

...then let me road test it :D

Was thinking the other night, it would be pretty cool to put Old 16, the Marmon Wasp and a few of the other surviving Vanderbilt and Indy cars from that period and let them "duke it out" for a few victory laps at the 500 next year for the 100th anniversary.


MrModelT, you will need to get in line behind me. I sat in the NY-P Thomas many years ago, but have always wanted to go for a spin. Just dream about Old 16. That would be a trip.
Bob.

Oh, believe me....I know where I stand in THAT line: The line goes around the building 9 times and I'm at the end of it :eek:

The Thomas is undoubtedly my favorite...the story, the people, the triumph of man and machine! Just never had a chance to see it in person though, hope to fix that soon though.

I will dream about those cars, I do all the time....probably one the only 25 year olds who does :D

MrModelT
06-09-2010, 12:39 AM
... more appreciation here, from what I understand...


No kidding, this is my kinda thread!

The37Kid
06-09-2010, 01:38 AM
Knowing you are 25 and have this much interest is VERY comforting to know. I took these photos of Old 16 at the show here in town back in 1966 when I was 15. :)No kidding, this is my kinda thread!

MrModelT
06-09-2010, 02:56 AM
Knowing you are 25 and have this much interest is VERY comforting to know. I took these photos of Old 16 at the show here in town back in 1966 when I was 15. :)

Thank you. For me, it is a passion. Unlike most my age, I am interested in, enthralled by, and I admire the Brass-era cars, these early "Pioneers of the American Road" more than your average Chevelle, Mustang, Charger or Cuda. I marvel at their simplicities , their complexities, their craftsmanship, advances, raw lumbering sound and power...but above all, their personalities, character and their "feel" that you only get from driving one. I also believe in using them for what they were intended: Driving them. For me, it does not matter whether it's a $4 million dollar Duesenberg, Old 16, the Thomas Flyer, an A-bone or your everyday, run of the mill "Tin Lizzy" they deserve to driven, loved, shared, broken, fixed, loved and driven some more....I would do nothing less.

Unlike the rest of my age group, I would take a brass era car over a 60's or 70's muscle car any day...and hopefully one day I will own my own.

MrModelT
06-09-2010, 02:58 AM
Knowing you are 25 and have this much interest is VERY comforting to know. I took these photos of Old 16 at the show here in town back in 1966 when I was 15. :)

..Sorry, was also going to thank you for the great pictures! Those must be from the Peter Helck days.

ehdubya
06-09-2010, 05:33 AM
Jack Johnson and Barney Oldfield 1910 ...was this a match race? The track looks super steep in this pic...

ehdubya
06-09-2010, 05:42 AM
This is the mystery photo on the Vanderbuilt Cup site of Howard Kroplick. I an surprised that no one has named them. I guess it was toooo easy for you cats on here. I can name three of them. I don't know who the ones in the center are, Tommy Milton and Wilbur Shaw are obvious. I think Rickenbacher is on the end, but the other two have me stumped although the guy next to Rickenbacker is real familiar. What say ye of historical knowledge?
HG :cool:

Second from the left looks like Leon Duray, Shaw and DePalma. The big kilroy guy on the right reminds me of an actor I barely recall.

psalt
06-09-2010, 06:19 AM
[QUOTE=The37Kid;5317102]This Franklin was at Hershey about 6 years ago, great unrestored car. The thing that amazed me was the overhead valve setup. SOMEHOW both intake and exhaust were in the same pocket. If there is a cross section illustration out there that someone could post it would be great to see.

Kid,

Close up of the Franklin valve gear here:

http://www.conceptcarz.com/view/photo/275709,15190/1911-Franklin-Model-D_photo.aspx

Looks like an early cross flow head with pushrods and rockers. Earlier models on this site look like they had automatic intakes. Somehow the exhaust manifolds do not look correct. Are all those extra pipes the vents for the air cooling ?

Paul

T-Head
06-09-2010, 07:14 AM
Jack Johnson and Barney Oldfield 1910 ...was this a match race?

Yes it was, I have the details somewhere and a photo. He was a champion boxer, he drove a big six cylinder Knox.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Johnson_(boxer)

T-Head
06-09-2010, 07:27 AM
Press photo of Fred Comer a well know driver who died after the Columbus Day race on the Rockingham, NH boardtrack.

T-Head
06-09-2010, 07:36 AM
This photo was Taken at Sanatoga Speedway in PA., on Apr 7, 1940. It gives you a good feel for what pre WWII midget racing was like. George Marshman is driving one of the Midget race cars. He was the father of Indy 500 driver Bobby Marshman and at one point owned Sanatoga Speedway.

kurtis
06-09-2010, 09:19 AM
This photo is has an old note on the back Howard S Wilcox – National 40. Looks like it my be circa 1910-12.

The following poem was written by J.C. Burton and published in the Chicago Record-Herald in response to George M. Dickson, General Manager of the National company, banning married men from driving his racing cars in 1912. This meant that Harvey Herrick, Len Zengel, Charles Merz and Johnny Aitken could no longer drive for the company while David Bruce Brown, Howdy Wilcox, Joe Dawson and Don Herr could.

They've tied a can to the married man
The guy with a wife and kid
Marooned him far from a racin' car
That's 'onery enough to skid.
They've gave my count to a non-account
Who's betching it, aint it tough?
I'm here to say that the married jag
Is hittin' the road that's rough.

The wedding bell was a solumn knell
of my day's for gathering knell.
The motor's throb and the grandstands mob
Give way to an infant's wail.
I'm buildin' fires where i once changed tires;
I'm meek, i'm mild and i'm tame.
The geek who's wise is one who ties
An anchor onto his name.

There ain't no spark to the baby's cart
And the thing is shy on speed.
There aint no wheel nor no throbbing steel,
No engine that you can feed.
Now baby's hood may be to the good,
With the lace and fixin's on it,
But bully geek 'taint one, two, three
With the grease splatter'd bonnet.

I much prefer to travel with Herr,
{ And spell it with a Double r }
For a woman's only a woman,
My soul mate's a racin' car.
Tied to a frau, i'm a has been now,
But give me another try.
I'll bet my life against your wife,
I'd distance that Hymee guy.

J.C. Burton.

T-Head
06-09-2010, 09:24 AM
These illustrations and description with give you a good idea of how the Franklin concentric valves work.

kurtis
06-09-2010, 09:35 AM
Oh, believe me....I know where I stand in THAT line: The line goes around the building 9 times and I'm at the end of it :eek:


I have been standing in front of that line for many years now, haven't moved an inch, so long infact that i put to shame all of the geeks who line up for the latest gadget from Apple. Now, if you would pass me the keys to that gow job in your avitar i would be more than happy for you to take my place.:D

Welcome to the thread BTW. You're one of the few in your age group here on the HAMB that get it.

model.A.keith
06-09-2010, 09:35 AM
Amilcar 8C - Hispano


http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/Le%20Vien%20Bleu/hamb048.jpg



http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/Le%20Vien%20Bleu/hamb045.jpg



http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/Le%20Vien%20Bleu/hamb043.jpg


.

.

psalt
06-09-2010, 09:47 AM
These illustrations and description with give you a good idea of how the Franklin concentric valves work.

It does not look like the #5 racer uses these valves, intake and exhaust are separate in the close up photos. I found the third drawing in my 1916 MGA (p167), but the index does not cite Franklin. Maybe they abandoned the 1909 idea before 1911 ?

kurtis
06-09-2010, 10:22 AM
Amilcar 8C - Hispano


http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/Le%20Vien%20Bleu/hamb048.jpg
.
.

Great looking car and an excellent photo Keith. I suspect it might be a touch nose heavy.

MrModelT
06-09-2010, 10:47 AM
I have been standing in front of that line for many years now, haven't moved an inch, so long infact that i put to shame all of the geeks who line up for the latest gadget from Apple. Now, if you would pass me the keys to that gow job in your avitar i would be more than happy for you to take my place.:D

Welcome to the thread BTW. You're one of the few in your age group here on the HAMB that get it.


Thanks, Glad to finally jump in on this one!

I think I'll keep my place in line, my T is about the only thing I WON'T give up for that as I have way too much fun with it.

I am glad that I "get it" and that you guys are happy to welcome a young "kid" like me....it hasn't always been that way.

kurtis
06-09-2010, 11:08 AM
I think I'll keep my place in line, my T is about the only thing I WON'T give up for that as I have way too much fun with it.


Oh come on. I'll even throw in an I-Pad to sweetn' the deal.

kurtis
06-09-2010, 11:10 AM
I've posted this before but it's just a great image.

http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx289/kuretic/American%20Autoracing/1908_vanderbilt_cup_-_george_robert.jpg

T-Head
06-09-2010, 11:10 AM
I must be a geek because I use an Apple but I was fortunate to get a ride in OLD 16 when I was five. I also watched it run at hi speed by chance one day when it came thru Goshen Conn. on a paved road in the sixties when someone was exercising it. We heard it coming for quite a while.....Both episodes set me off on the same path I am still on today.

I have seen it many times since and my grand mother worked for the Sessions family that owned it before Peter Helck was able to buy it after Sessions died in 1941. There actually was a chance that my father might have ended up with it if things had gone differently. If I have the story right they towed the car home to Boston Corners, Ny were Peter lived with a rope in a snowstorm the winter he bought it.

His son whom I know well, watches this thread and maybe he would share photos and remembrances with us??? They should be recorded as it is a true Automotive Mona Lisa.

T-Head
06-09-2010, 11:23 AM
A Half A Hisso was used a lot in sprint car racing here in the US. There were so many of them made for WWI which lead to them being inexpensive to buy surplus.

The first two photos show a true half a Hisso which I believe is the Dellatorre engine.

The next three photos show one of several special types of Half a Hisso crankcases that were made along with one complete engine in a car.

The last two photos are period and shows yet another type of crankcase.

fur biscuit
06-09-2010, 11:48 AM
suspect it might be a touch nose heavy.

apply loud pedal as needed...:D

MrModelT
06-09-2010, 12:04 PM
I've posted this before but it's just a great image.

http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx289/kuretic/American%20Autoracing/1908_vanderbilt_cup_-_george_robert.jpg

...One of my all time FAVORITE photos! (I love the guys standing out in the road jumping out of it's way :eek: .....ah, the days before safety barriers and lawsuits :D)

..I would LOVE to be doing that with the ol' girl right now, all four off the ground...what a rush!





I must be a geek because I use an Apple but I was fortunate to get a ride in OLD 16 when I was five. I also watched it run at hi speed by chance one day when it came thru Goshen Conn. on a paved road in the sixties when someone was exercising it. We heard it coming for quite a while.....Both episodes set me off on the same path I am still on today.

I have seen it many times since and my grand mother worked for the Sessions family that owned it before Peter Helck was able to buy it after Sessions died in 1941. There actually was a chance that my father might have ended up with it if things had gone differently. If I have the story right they towed the car home to Boston Corners, Ny were Peter lived with a rope in a snowstorm the winter he bought it.

His son whom I know well, watches this thread and maybe he would share photos and remembrances with us??? They should be recorded as it is a true Automotive Mona Lisa.


I hope Jerry does see this and shares some photos and great stories with us as well! I know he and Peter put many many miles on Old 16 together while in their ownership and I'm sure he has many wonderful stories to tell.

Truckedup
06-09-2010, 12:24 PM
If that's a Hisso 8,it's a V-8 aircraft engine making about 300 hp from 1100 cubes at around 1800 rpm.And it weighs no more than a Ford 390 FE
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/Le%20Vien%20Bleu/hamb043.jpg

ebtm3
06-09-2010, 12:44 PM
T Head- thanks for posting all the neat photos--especially the pix of the concentric Franklin valves. Great way to cut down on the amount of incoming charge--heat the bejabbers out of it. Probably the exhaust valve ran extra hot also.


Herb

LeeStohr
06-09-2010, 01:04 PM
Big guy on the right in Howard Kroplick's photo is maybe Cannonball Baker.

Barney Oldfield did have a match race against Jack Johnson which resulted in the AAA banning Barney for life from AAA racing. This was maybe his second lifetime ban. He eventually was allowed back but his career was winding down by then anyway. Oldfield and Johnson probably made good money on the match race, even though Johnson had no chance against Oldfield. Today's historians think the match race had more to do with white racism, but money could just as well have been the motivation.

Michael Ferner
06-09-2010, 02:03 PM
The car is in the Midwest under restorationhttp://66.154.44.164/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=995454&d=1275918703

:confused: Is that so? I'm sure I've seen pictures of the restored car many, many years ago, it can't possibly be in need of another restoration. Or are we talking two different entities?

Michael Ferner
06-09-2010, 02:06 PM
This is the mystery photo on the Vanderbuilt Cup site of Howard Kroplick. I an surprised that no one has named them. I guess it was toooo easy for you cats on here. I can name three of them. I don't know who the ones in the center are, Tommy Milton and Wilbur Shaw are obvious. I think Rickenbacher is on the end, but the other two have me stumped although the guy next to Rickenbacker is real familiar. What say ye of historical knowledge?
HG :cool:


Sorry to have to inform you that the GAME is OVER!

:)

;)

:D

MrModelT
06-09-2010, 04:15 PM
Here are a few more I found in my stuff. I have also included a photo of a '26 T roadster (# 34) that was apparently owned founder of Bell Racing Equipment back in the early 1930's. I have been looking for any other info and picture of this car, but have had no luck. Anybody here have anything on it?

T-Head
06-09-2010, 05:14 PM
What appears to be one of the Maxwell race cars later on in its life. I could have been owned by Sloan at this time.

The37Kid
06-09-2010, 07:31 PM
Make a cup of coffee and read about HISSO powered cars. I sat in the Larry Beals #24 before it went home to Germany for a restoration as a stock 1908 Mercedes GP car. Spencer Wishart imported the car used, and ran it at INDY in 1911 and 1912, finished 4th in 1911. Car NEVER should have been restored IMO and in the opinion of a note collector in the NW that was outbid on it. http://winfield.50megs.com/Hisso.htm

Rapid Robert
06-09-2010, 08:35 PM
All -
I believe the best and most accurate information available on the Oldfield-Johnson match race can be found in "Unforgivable Blackness - The Rise and Fall of Jack Johnson" by Geoffrey C. Ward. A very interesting and engrossing read. Also a PBS documentary available on DVD.

T-Head -
That is one of the first generation Maxwells. My digging indicates that after Billy Carlson's death and the abandonment of racing by Maxwell, the 2 remaining cars were sold to Moross and were used in his shows through 1916. Eventually they went back to Ray Harroun who disposed of them, minus the engines. I believe Ben Gotoff bought one chassis and the other became the Sweeney Special, eventually owned by Harvey (Captain) Kennedy.

MrModelT -
Keep the photos rolling. By the way, I think I have seen a photo spread on your 26 and it is a thing of beauty. The sort of thing I would love to build. Please make every effort to visit the Flyer at the NAM in Reno, but before you go, contact the museum and speak to Ms. Jackie Frady, the Exec Director, or Mr. Jay Hubbard. Hubbard is the caretaker of the Thomas and is very open to visits and private tours. It would be well worth your time.
Bob.

model.A.keith
06-10-2010, 01:46 AM
Great looking car and an excellent photo Keith. I suspect it might be a touch nose heavy.

apply loud pedal as needed...:D



Surprisingly the car seemed very well behaved, no fuss or drama, sounded fantastic, first time i had seen this car, i could have willingly taken it home.:D



http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/Le%20Vien%20Bleu/hamb287.jpg



http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/Le%20Vien%20Bleu/hamb289.jpg



http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/Le%20Vien%20Bleu/hamb151.jpg


.


.

The37Kid
06-10-2010, 05:03 AM
Keith, Very nice looking car, is it a car with history or a recent build. I know there is a lot of interest in Aero powered cars across the pond. The 1908 Mercedes that I mention from time to time as the Larry Beals car had a HISSO, it was removed and a Mercedes engine replaced it. Just wonder if that could be the HISSO in a new chassis now.

T-Head
06-10-2010, 05:23 AM
Rapid Robert
That is one of the first generation Maxwells. My digging indicates that after Billy Carlson's death and the abandonment of racing by Maxwell, the 2 remaining cars were sold to Moross and were used in his shows through 1916. Eventually they went back to Ray Harroun who disposed of them, minus the engines. I believe Ben Gotoff bought one chassis and the other became the Sweeney Special, eventually owned by Harvey
(Captain) Kennedy.

Thanks for letting us know about your research on the Maxwells, I have seen very few photos of of them after the factory quit racing. Do you have any post factory photos?

T-Head
06-10-2010, 07:18 AM
This is quite a press photo which is incorrectly captioned of Ruth Law in a thrilling race with Gaston Chevrolet in 1921. The plane vs. car race was held at a track in Montreal, Canada. This is a rare and exciting photo of the late Aviatrix.

The big problem is Gaston died in November of 1920. That makes the rest of this info unless they have the date wrong, that came with it suspect also. But none the less it is a very dramatic photo. Can anyone shed and light on this image?

Ruth Bancroft Law (1887 - 1970) was a pioneer aviatrix during the 1910s. She received her pilot's license in November 1912. Her brother was the famous parachutist & pioneer movie stuntman Rodman Law (1885-1919).
In 1915 she gave a demonstration of aerobatics at Daytona Beach before a large crowd. She announced that she was going to "loop the loop" for the first time, and proceeded to do so, not once but twice, to the consternation of her husband Charles Oliver.
In spring 1916 she took part in an altitude competition, twice narrowly coming second to male fliers. She was furious, determined to set a record that would stand against men as well as women.
Her greatest feat took place on 19 November 1916, when she smashed the existing cross-country distance flying record of 452 miles set by Victor Carlstrom by flying non-stop from Chicago to New York State, a distance of 590 miles. The next day she flew on to New York City with an Army lieutenant named Henry "Hap" Arnold as a passenger. Flying over Manhattan, her fuel cut out, but she coolly glided to a safe landing on Governors Island.
She was the toast of the city, President Woodrow Wilson attended a dinner held in her honour on 2 December 1916.
When the USA entered World War I in 1917, she campaigned unsuccessfully for women to be allowed to fly military aircraft. Stung by her rejection, she wrote an article entitled "Let Women Fly!" in the magazine Air Travel, where she argued that success in aviation should prove a woman's fitness for work in that field.

Vitesse
06-10-2010, 08:13 AM
1917 according to the Canadian Encyclopaedia:

In 1917 Gaston Chevrolet raced successfully in an automobile against an airplane flown by Ruth Law, a noted aircraft pilot of the time.

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0000411

However, the artist who painted this says it was June 29th 1918:

http://www.aviationartists.ca/Ruth%20Law.jpg

http://www.aviationartists.ca/jbruce6.htm

According to a post by Brian Pratt at Autosport TNF she did three of these races in Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal - he also says 1918. Found some info from Mike Tanney quoting July 6th 1918 for the Ottawa race as part of an IMCA meeting.

http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=27818&view=findpost&p=527602

So, as the CNE is an annual event, either or both of 1917 and 1918 might be right, although I'd trust Brian's and Mike's data. Can't find anything on Google News, but I'll keep looking ...

T-Head
06-10-2010, 08:21 AM
Thanks...... So maybe they just have the 1921 date wrong like I mentioned was possible.

Does anyone know for sure what the car is?

twin6
06-10-2010, 08:27 AM
Talbot, with Hall Scott aircraft engine, ex Art Austria.

T-Head
06-10-2010, 08:42 AM
...

Vitesse
06-10-2010, 08:57 AM
Thanks...... So maybe they just have the 1921 date wrong like I mentioned was possible.

Does anyone know for sure what the car is?
Could be a Chase, based on a couple of 1918 press reports. Obviously not a Sunbeam as suggested in Brian's info though, as it's LHD. I don't think he believed that either!

john glenn printz
06-10-2010, 10:10 AM
With regard to the photo posted on June 7, 2010 Milton and Richenbacker are not present. Wilbur Shaw, Ralph DePalma, and Cannonball Baker are. The man on the extreme left is probably Earl B. Gilmore.

gnichols
06-10-2010, 10:20 AM
With regard to the photo posted on June 7, 2010 Milton and Richenbacker are not present. Wilbur Shaw, Ralph DePalma, and Cannonball Baker are. The man on the extreme left is probably Earl B. Gilmore.

Posts like these are why I just love this thread... and why I learn every day just what a dummy I am. You're always learning, they say. All this time, I thought that "Cannonball" Baker was a fictional name linked to the LA to NY runs and the movies of the 1970s. Duh. Well I'll be dammed if Erwin Baker wasn't a real guy who did all kinds of special and crazy things. Gary

MrModelT
06-10-2010, 10:57 AM
MrModelT -
Keep the photos rolling. By the way, I think I have seen a photo spread on your 26 and it is a thing of beauty. The sort of thing I would love to build. Please make every effort to visit the Flyer at the NAM in Reno, but before you go, contact the museum and speak to Ms. Jackie Frady, the Exec Director, or Mr. Jay Hubbard. Hubbard is the caretaker of the Thomas and is very open to visits and private tours. It would be well worth your time.
Bob.


Bob,

Thank you kindly! If you haven't seen my build thread on the T, check it out (the link is below, in my "signature"). If you are looking to build something like this and are looking for any help or ideas, just PM me and I would be happy to send you any info, photos and offer any help I can.

I do intend to make the "pilgrimage" to the National Auto Museum to visit the Thomas, the "Grand Lady" herself, for the first time this summer, so I will certainly be taking your advice on contacting the museum and speaking with Mr. Hubbard about perhaps getting a private "visit" with the "ol' girl"....maybe I can persuade him to fire her up for me too ....just a dream maybe, but worth a shot!

Is it better to call the museum or do either of them have a direct email?

Clayton "MrModelT"

Carla Marvin
06-10-2010, 11:17 AM
I'm alway trying to find more information about my "Falls Eight"! I have been racing this racer for 10 years. The Falls is such a strong and wonderful car to race. Such a wonderful Engine! From all the historical reseach I have received, was that the Falls Eight Engine was the Proto-type for the Buick Straight 8......The engine in the Falls Eight Racer is 0001 & the only one known to exist from 8 made.
Would love to hear more if anyone has anymore information.
Shiny side up & Dirty side down!
Carla

T-Head
06-10-2010, 11:52 AM
I found a little more out about the White after talking to a good friend today. I also did a little research and it turns out that Johnny Jenkins finished 7th at the Indy 500 with his White 6-cyl. GF entered by the White Indianapolis Co. It was a 490 CI six and he qualified at 80 MPH and finished the 200 laps at an average of 73MPH and it was car #14, same number as in the photo.

After it being identified by mrmodelt the other day as a six and based on this I think we are looking at a photo of Jenkins posing in this car. The driver even has the White name on his coveralls which is something you usually only see in a big race like this for more exposure for the sponsor. Does anyone know for sure or have a photo of the White that raced in 1912?

Don Capps
06-10-2010, 12:01 PM
Barney Oldfield did have a match race against Jack Johnson which resulted in the AAA banning Barney for life from AAA racing. This was maybe his second lifetime ban. He eventually was allowed back but his career was winding down by then anyway. Oldfield and Johnson probably made good money on the match race, even though Johnson had no chance against Oldfield. Today's historians think the match race had more to do with white racism, but money could just as well have been the motivation.

Jack Johnson and Barney Oldfield 1910 ...was this a match race? The track looks super steep in this pic...

The Match Race between Oldfield & Johnson took place at the Sheepshead Bay Track in Brooklyn, not at the track that was depicted. That was the Manhattan Beach Motordrome on Coney Island, which was used for "wall of death" motorcycle exhibitions as part of the entertainment on Coney Island.

It should be remembered that the 1910 season was the first season that the AAA Contest Board issued licenses to drivers to participate in AAA-sanctioned events. Exactly how Johnson got his AAA license is still a matter of conjecture, but the Russ Catlin tale just may carry a (very) small germ of truth, even if it most likely did not occur as he relates it.

The match race and the reaction to it had a great deal to do with racism, this being the period that Jim Crow was at his peak. The money certainly played a role, but the issue of Johnson and his race was, front and center, very much the issue.

Oldfield was not given a "lifetime ban," but suspended "indefinitely," a punishment which was reviewed and then dropped, allowing Oldfield back into events sanctioned by the AAA.

MrModelT
06-10-2010, 01:26 PM
I found a little more out about the White after talking to a good friend today. I also did a little research and it turns out that Johnny Jenkins finished 7th at the Indy 500 with his White 6-cyl. GF entered by the White Indianapolis Co. It was a 490 CI six and he qualified at 80 MPH and finished the 200 laps at an average of 73MPH and it was car #14, same number as in the photo.

After it being identified by mrmodelt the other day as a six and based on this I think we are looking at a photo of Jenkins posing in this car. The driver even has the White name on his coveralls which is something you usually only see in a big race like this for more exposure for the sponsor. Does anyone know for sure or have a photo of the White that raced in 1912?

Good detective work! I would love to know more on this myself and hopefully someone in "H.A.M.B.land" has some good photos of the car.

T-Head
06-10-2010, 06:22 PM
I did not think I would be doing a tech post this morning but I tried something new today that might help some of you out with your projects.

I rebuild early engines so I have a lot of cleaning to do. If I can I take a block or crankcase into the big city and get it hot tanked of washed in a spray washer cabinet which ever is appropriate for the case or block and get off all of the heavy old built up dirt and oil. Never hot tank aluminum or babbitt but it is OK for some bronzes and excellent for cast iron and steel.

After I get done machining a block or crankcase it has become dirty again and contaminated with chips and some oil. To clean an engine clean enough so that there will be no contamination problems is a lot of work. Hot soap and water is the best and scrub brushes, lots of them in different sizes.

A high pressure sprayer is nice but expensive and another machine to take care of. So I thought there might be a better and less expensive way and I found it. If you have a big enough air compressor (I have a 50 yr. old big vee twin 5 HP unit) you can use that for your high pressure part (125-150 PSI seemed to work fine).

I bought the Milton wash gun and accessory kit, http://www.mcmaster.com/#wash-guns/=7h5ohv that you should be able get for a little more than $100 and with the addition of some Simple Green with is biodegradable and citrus acid based I ended being happier than I thought. The Milton gun is a nice high quality piece as they make industrial air line equipment. Get a flip up face shield also to keep your face dry and the solution out of your eyes.

I took the very high tech water jug and with the addition of a hook off of a rubber bungee cord hung that from my belt loop with hot water and cleaner in it. This leaves one hand free and the other to operate the gun. I found that if I sprayed it on used my brushes and the piece was fairly clean that is all I had to do and then rinse. For minor built up oil and dirt I found that if you keep it wet and scrub with a brush every say ten minutes and let the citrus acid work you end up with a nice clean piece. The acid also with time does and very nice job of cleaning off minor aluminum corrosion and brass tarnish.

I don't want to have this sound like a late night TV commercial but after I had cleaned the big Thomas crankcase which was the dirtiest, I had splashed some oil and dirt all over my door and windows. So I sprayed them and then rinsed with water and my dirty windows are now very clean. I think with enough air I will also make a good car washer. I am going to try it on my car trailer which is good sized and tall and aluminum and I think it will be just the thing for that. The citrus acid will brighten up the aluminum also.

Photo 1 shows the gun and jug and hoses. Photo 2 shows the Thomas case before and 3 after. Photos 4-6 show a Mercer Raceabout crankcase that had been rebuilt by another shop before, that had problems and needed to be done over. They had painted the inside with Glipthal a paint that works well for sealing blocks and crankcases and also promotes oil drain back, I also use Glipthal as it works well to seal in any left over sand left over from the casting process that you can't get out but may fall off later. This engine had been together and run some for eight years and and the paint was stained with black varnish and looked awful but you can see how clean it is now, it looks like new. On the outside it cleaned the surface well as you can see and the gun saved me a couple of hours of very hard and wet work.

MrModelT
06-10-2010, 06:31 PM
Here is the only other picture of Johnny Jenkins' White "Sixty" car #14 as seen in the "class" photo of the drivers and cars at the starting line prior to the race. The car can be seen on the right side, 3rd from front and the White Co. Team Drivers are seen in the front row between the #12 and #10 cars.

T-Head
06-10-2010, 06:49 PM
Here are a couple of close ups of the White.

model.A.keith
06-11-2010, 02:17 AM
Keith, Very nice looking car, is it a car with history or a recent build. I know there is a lot of interest in Aero powered cars across the pond. The 1908 Mercedes that I mention from time to time as the Larry Beals car had a HISSO, it was removed and a Mercedes engine replaced it. Just wonder if that could be the HISSO in a new chassis now.


Unknown, but on several race entries it is shown as 1916/30 so it's not an original build i would guess, (may be someone could clarify)


here's a couple more shots.


http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/Le%20Vien%20Bleu/hamb046.jpg



http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/Le%20Vien%20Bleu/hamb047.jpg


.


.

The37Kid
06-11-2010, 06:40 AM
Thanks Keith! This car and the GN that has been featured here are two of my favorite Vintage race cars in the UK. History or not they both have "THE LOOK".

ehdubya
06-11-2010, 07:10 AM
Yeah neat alright. There was a V12 HS laying around where I used to work, the customer had had ideas of cutting it up and putting it a HS chassis but I think he might have come to his senses.

The Match Race between Oldfield & Johnson took place at the Sheepshead Bay Track in Brooklyn, not at the track that was depicted. That was the Manhattan Beach Motordrome on Coney Island, which was used for "wall of death" motorcycle exhibitions as part of the entertainment on Coney Island.



Manhattan and Brighton beaches both being on Coney Island on Sheepshead Bay makes it all very confusing, a horse track seems more plausible and I wonder where the Sheepshead Bay horse track was in relation to Brighton. I think the track in the picture is Brighton which sits between Manhattan beach and Coney Island, a NY Times article describes the 'increased banking and macadamizing of the turns' (http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FB0715FE3F5C15738DDDAC0994D0405B 898CF1D3).


http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=997192&d=1276079493

The race-race info is intriguing, I see it was postponed twice and a rematch touted in 1911.

ehdubya
06-11-2010, 07:25 AM
Madison Square Auto Show 1900- tricycle horde on the boards about to mow down the hapless photographer

T-Head
06-11-2010, 07:30 AM
...

T-Head
06-11-2010, 09:03 AM
I found this photo of a core sample of the track at Indy along with this discription of the different layer....... quite interesting.

2004

Late Summer & Fall 2004: Entire 2 1/2 miles resurfaced, following removal of approximately 2.5 inches from the surface.
2002

March 2002: Entire surface, including bricks at start/finish line, made even smoother by the process of "diamond grinding."
1995

Fall 1995: Entire 2 1/2 miles resurfaced, following removal of 5 inches from the surface, the first occasion on which all pre-exisiting surfaces no longer remained (with the exception of portions removed upon installation of tunnels).
1988

Summer 1988: Entire 2 1/2 miles resurfaced.
1976

Summer 1976: Entire 2 1/2 miles resurfaced with asphalt, the first complete resurfacing since fall of 1909.
1961

October 1961: Balance of brick on main straight covered with asphalt, leaving only the 3-foot strip at the start/finish line still of bricks.
1909

Fall 1909: 3,200,000 street paving bricks laid into the sand, seperated on each side by approximately one-quarter of an inch and, after each section rolled and declared level, a mixture of equal parts of sand and portland cement poured between each brick on all four sides for "fixing." This is the carmel colored area.
1909

Fall 1909: A 2-inch layer of sand placed on top of the existing damaged surface.

Spring & Summer 1909: Original surface of 2-inch layer of creek gravel, followed by 2 inches of crushed limestone topped by an application of taroid, followed by a half-inch coating of crushed stone chips mixe4d in with larger stones, followed by a second heavier coating of taroid and a top dressing of stone dust worked into the surface.

kurtis
06-11-2010, 12:16 PM
Manhattan and Brighton beaches both being on Coney Island on Sheepshead Bay makes it all very confusing, a horse track seems more plausible and I wonder where the Sheepshead Bay horse track was in relation to Brighton. I think the track in the picture is Brighton which sits between Manhattan beach and Coney Island, a NY Times article describes the 'increased banking and macadamizing of the turns' (http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FB0715FE3F5C15738DDDAC0994D0405B 898CF1D3).

The race-race info is intriguing, I see it was postponed twice and a rematch touted in 1911.

I have read a NYT article reporting on the second postponement of the "much anticipated match race between Oldfield and Johnson" due to undesireable weather conditions and a muddy track. There was also the agreement between Oldfield and a moving picture company in that the racing star was to receive a sum for his appearance but the race must be held under clear skies.

There was a documentary about the life of Jack Johnson that aired here a couple of months ago which showed the boxing champ racing around a somewhat worse for wear dirt track while the narrator spoke of his fast lifestyle. Whether this was footage of him practising at Sheepshead Bay before the race with Oldfield, i do not know but it sure was a sunny day.

I'm also intrigued by the race-race 'thing'. I've often wondered if Joe Louis wanted to race against Oldfield, would there have been so much hype? Remember, Louis was a black man that white America accepted.

Another question that i haven't an answer for is the license that was/was not obtained by Johnson from the AAA. Did a person really walk into the AAA offices one day and hand the clerk an application for a competiton license with the name John Luther Johnson? Is this the 'small germ of truth' that Don was referring to?

kurtis
06-11-2010, 12:24 PM
I found this photo of a core sample of the track at Indy along with this discription of the different layer....... quite interesting.

Where do you find all of these photos TH? Fascinating.

Interesting how many times the track has been resurfaced over the decades when one consider's that nobody races on it for most of the year.

T-Head
06-11-2010, 01:44 PM
[QUOTE=kurtis;5326692]Where do you find all of these photos TH? Fascinating.

I have about 4500 photos stored away, the problem is always finding the one your are looking for.

This photo shows the track being rolled before it opened in 1909.

T-Head
06-11-2010, 01:57 PM
A balloon race was the first event held at the Speedway in June of 1909 to generate revenue and interest in the automobile races. Seen here are some of the 3,500 paying customers. Outside the track there was a huge traffic jam and 40,000 spectators who watched for free.

This is a deteriorated Curkut photo.

T-Head
06-11-2010, 02:06 PM
The first motorized event was a motorcycle race in August.

T-Head
06-11-2010, 02:14 PM
This photo gives us an idea of what went on during the three days of airplane races that were held in June 1910. Wilbur and Orville Wright participated in the opening events on Monday, June 13. The final attraction on Wednesday was a race between a car and an airplane flying overhead. The plane won by four seconds. The planes flying overhead in this photograph were probably images taken at the events and added to this image by the photographer.

Don Capps
06-12-2010, 01:20 AM
Given the importance of New York in the history of American automobile racing, it is always a bit of a surprise to realize just how little most know about the tracks or where they were located.

This might given some of you a better idea as to the relationships of where several of the tracks were located in one section of the New York metropolitan area.

Sorry, "ehdubya," but the track in the picture is the Manhattan Beach Motordrome. The track that The Times is referring to is the Brighton Beach Motordrome, which was the result of the Brighton Beach horse racing track being converted to use by automobiles rather than horses.

The Coney Island Jockey Club Track is the Sheepshead Bay Track. It was a horse racing track located in that Brooklyn neighborhood until a planked board speedway was built on the site in 1915.

The Brooklyn Jockey Club Track is the Gravesend Track.

There are several other significant New York racing tracks not depicted, Morris Park in the Bronx and Empire City in Yonkers, as well as the sites on Long Island used for the Vanderbilt Cup as well as the Briarcliff races north of The City. There were also the speed trails on Staten Island and in Jamaica as well as events across the river in New Jersey.

The role of New York in the early days of American automobile racing and the way that New York horse racing and automobile racing were intertwined seems to be lost on most. It is, however, another story for another time and place.

ehdubya
06-12-2010, 06:44 AM
Sorry, "ehdubya," but the track in the picture is the Manhattan Beach Motordrome. The track that The Times is referring to is the Brighton Beach Motordrome, which was the result of the Brighton Beach horse racing track being converted to use by automobiles rather than horses.
.

Title: [New York City - bird's-eye view: Motordrome and Manhattan Beach, [Brooklyn] Coney Island]
Date Created/Published: c1912.

I still think it's the Brighton Motordrome looking east towards Manhattan Beach. It most likely inspired the Coney Island Motordrome that opened in 1911, an 85ft circular track widely parroted as the first wall of death on the internets and 1912 Dreamland Motordrome of 100ft banked 56 1/2 degrees. This is no miniature sideshow track so I'd expect to be able to find a historical reference other than this 'rare' public domain photo on eBay.

ehdubya
06-12-2010, 07:31 AM
M'lle de Tiers musta raced

Don Capps
06-12-2010, 07:35 AM
Title: [New York City - bird's-eye view: Motordrome and Manhattan Beach, [Brooklyn] Coney Island]
Date Created/Published: c1912.

I still think it's the Brighton Motordrome looking east towards Manhattan Beach. It most likely inspired the Coney Island Motordrome that opened in 1911, an 85ft circular track widely parroted as the first wall of death on the internets and 1912 Dreamland Motordrome of 100ft banked 56 1/2 degrees. This is no miniature sideshow track so I'd expect to be able to find a historical reference other than this 'rare' public domain photo on eBay.

Believe what you wish, it is your privilege to do so, but that still does not make this the Brighton Beach Track.

T-Head
06-12-2010, 08:48 AM
A female dare devil..... or wodevil at the Wisconsin State Fair. Kind of fits in with ehdubya's circus stunt poster.

The37Kid
06-12-2010, 09:09 AM
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/jal_attachments/1/0/4/2/2/7/999922.thumb?d=1276350295 (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=999922&d=1276350295)Never knew they actually did these things, always thought it was just poster artwork, thanks for the proof.

HJmaniac
06-12-2010, 10:22 AM
This photo gives us an idea of what went on during the three days of airplane races that were held in June 1910. Wilbur and Orville Wright participated in the opening events on Monday, June 13. The final attraction on Wednesday was a race between a car and an airplane flying overhead. The plane won by four seconds. The planes flying overhead in this photograph were probably images taken at the events and added to this image by the photographer.

Hey- I just noticed, the 100th anniversary of that event is tomorow.

Ken_Schou
06-12-2010, 10:53 AM
Some recent postings here have brought some questions to my mind re some motor sports facilities/tracks that seemingly existed in Brooklyn, NY that I never before heard of. Those are the (a) Manhattan Beach Motordrome, (b) the Coney Island Motordrome (not the Velodrome) and (c) the Dreamland Motordrome.

Can anyone of you knowledgeable folks tell me any details about the above tracks? Things like when the opened/ran/existed .. where (street, avenue names, anything) they were, what ran there (type of cars &/or motorcycles, etc.), where they dirt, paved, boards, who promoted them, who sanctioned the events? ...... Anything at all would be GREATLY appreciated. No detail would be too small.

THANKS in advance.

T-Head
06-12-2010, 12:09 PM
An admittance ticket from 1909.

T-Head
06-12-2010, 12:51 PM
Given the importance of New York in the history of American automobile racing, it is always a bit of a surprise to realize just how little most know about the tracks or where they were located.

The role of New York in the early days of American automobile racing and the way that New York horse racing and automobile racing were intertwined seems to be lost on most. It is, however, another story for another time and place.

Don , We are most interested in all of the information on these tracks along with photos of the same.

ehdubya
06-12-2010, 05:54 PM
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=999922&d=1276350295 Never knew they actually did these things, always thought it was just poster artwork, thanks for the proof.

I saw a postcard of the Auto Bolide years ago and thought it BS and apparently so did the punters at the time when they saw the apparatus. It appears Mauricia de Tiers may have only performed this stunt once in the US at Madison Square Gardens in 1905 (http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9F00E6DE143AE733A25751C1A9659C946497D6CF
) and local gal local gal Miss Isabelle Butler took over (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=450&dat=19060804&id=gPUJAAAAIBAJ&sjid=YC4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=1989,2170226) doing it and the variation known as 'The Limit' depicted above.

Scroll down to Circus Loop the Loop Acts for more... http://www.circushistory.org/Bandwagon/bw-1969May.htm

ehdubya
06-12-2010, 06:19 PM
(a) Manhattan Beach Motordrome, (b) the Coney Island Motordrome (not the Velodrome) and (c) the Dreamland Motordrome.


I don't think A existed, B and C were mini motordrome amusement park tracks but not as tight or vertical as what's become know as a Wall of Death.
I think the Jockey Club abandoned Brighton to the autos in 1907, it was too sandy to be a fast horse track. Pictures of the Brighton Motordrome once the banking started 1909-13 seem to be as rare as any reference to a Manhattan Beach Motordrome.

ehdubya
06-13-2010, 05:10 AM
The news coverage of Brighton Beach Motordrome seems to talk about this drome and a dirt track without distinguishing them. That track agian...

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/ggbain/19700/19799v.jpg

http://www.motorcycle-memories.com/postersbig/353.%20Board%20track%20Luna%20Park.JPG

and another Brighton Beach Motordrome...

http://www.motorcycle-memories.com/postersbig/345.%20racing%20Brighton%20Beach%20N.Y..JPG

T-Head
06-13-2010, 06:12 AM
Be sure to wish Model A. Keith an Happy Birthday Sunday!

Happy birthday Keith.

Best wishes

BanjeauX Bob

Have a good BDay and keep your great photos coming. T-H

noboD
06-13-2010, 08:37 AM
Happy BD to Keith. And congrats to Audi at Le Mans, finished 1,2,3.

kurtis
06-13-2010, 08:47 AM
Happy Birthday Keith.

kurtis
06-13-2010, 09:33 AM
.... congrats to Audi at Le Mans, finished 1,2,3.

Yes, it was a surprising win for Audi. Unfortunately for Peugeot they suffered a little bad luck from the onset which made their task all the more harder to achieve. It was an intriguing race never the less.

model.A.keith
06-13-2010, 11:09 AM
Be sure to wish Model A. Keith an Happy Birthday Sunday!

Happy birthday Keith.

Best wishes

BanjeauX Bob

Have a good BDay and keep your great photos coming. T-H

Happy BD to Keith. And congrats to Audi at Le Mans, finished 1,2,3.

Happy Birthday Keith.


Thank you all,:o:o:o

Le Mans is a special place, i watched todays race as much as possible. Fasinating to see it all unfold.

I have been lucky enough to go 4 times (3 24hr + 1 classic)
to keep this on topic (sort of) here's a couple from the classic.

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/LM08/LeMans089.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/LM08/LeMans083.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/LM08/LeMans080.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/LM08/LeMans433-1.jpg


Keith

T-Head
06-13-2010, 11:27 AM
Here is one more to add from the Le Mans Classic. It is a Montier equipped Model T Ford of the type that Kurtis is very interested in. I am going to let him tell you folks more about them someday here and also in the the racing thread I have established in the Model T ford section of the new Ford Barn Website the Ryan has built.

Follow this link there to find out about one of the most versitile cars on the face of the earth. You may enjoy it.

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3723

model.A.keith
06-13-2010, 11:30 AM
one more


http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/LM08/LeMans458.jpg


.

.

T-Head
06-13-2010, 01:00 PM
1921 Ballot ? At the French Grand Prix ?

T-Head
06-13-2010, 01:04 PM
Alfa Romeo 8C 2900 Le Mans.

T-Head
06-13-2010, 01:07 PM
A Hudson at speed on a board track.

T-Head
06-13-2010, 01:09 PM
Ferdinand Porsche.

T-Head
06-13-2010, 01:14 PM
...

Don Capps
06-13-2010, 01:41 PM
A few bits of flotsam and jetsam from the New York racing scene: Staten Island, Empire City, Briarcliff, Morris Park, and Sheepshead Bay.

The picture with the start of the race is the Brighton Beach Motordrome. The banking in the turns was fairly mild, but enough to increase the speeds that could be carried through the turns.

This sort of stuff is very superficial and scarcely touches the surface -- much less scratches it -- of the New York racing scene of over a century ago. Again, a story for another time and place, but not here.

ehdubya
06-13-2010, 02:08 PM
Interesting maps Don, This is Sheepshead 1915 350 mile start. Resta on pole, Aitken, Oldfield and Burman

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1001226&d=1276453739

Vitesse
06-13-2010, 02:33 PM
1921 Ballot ? At the French Grand Prix ?
Ballot 2LS - oui. Grand Prix de l'ACF - certainement. 1921 - non. ;)

Actually 1922 at Strasbourg. Giulio Foresti and his mécanicien refuelling. Foresti is the one hauling the churn off the pit counter.

This picture can be found in the LAT archive.

T-Head
06-13-2010, 03:12 PM
Quote: ehdubya

Interesting maps Don, This is Sheepshead 1915 350 mile start. Resta on pole, Aitken, Oldfield and Burman.

Your right about that...... here is a page from the November, 1915 Motor showing the same start. Photo 2.

model.A.keith
06-13-2010, 03:30 PM
I'll just throw a few out .................GN


http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/Le%20Vien%20Bleu/hamb030-1.jpg



http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/Le%20Vien%20Bleu/hamb028.jpg



http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/Le%20Vien%20Bleu/hamb029.jpg



.


.

model.A.keith
06-13-2010, 03:33 PM
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/Le%20Vien%20Bleu/hamb024.jpg




http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/Le%20Vien%20Bleu/hamb023.jpg




http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/Le%20Vien%20Bleu/hamb018.jpg

The37Kid
06-13-2010, 03:36 PM
Keith, what are the odd "Push bars" for?

model.A.keith
06-13-2010, 03:36 PM
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/Le%20Vien%20Bleu/hamb038.jpg





http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/Le%20Vien%20Bleu/hamb039.jpg





http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/Le%20Vien%20Bleu/hamb040-1.jpg




.


.

T-Head
06-13-2010, 03:38 PM
Keith, what are the odd "Push bars" for?

Those I believe are tripping the timing devices.

Great Pixs......What is the last one???

model.A.keith
06-13-2010, 03:38 PM
Keith, what are the odd "Push bars" for?





http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/Le%20Vien%20Bleu/hamb022.jpg

.

.

model.A.keith
06-13-2010, 03:41 PM
Those I believe are tripping the timing devices.

Great Pixs......What is the last one???


yes if your talking about the black 'paddle' protruding from the fronnt it's exactly as T-H said for the tripping the timing beams


i'll have to look up the programme on the last pics


.

.Keith

The37Kid
06-13-2010, 03:51 PM
OK, so these cars are hillclimb cars not track cars. :)yes if your talking about the black 'paddle' protruding from the fronnt it's exactly as T-H said for the tripping the timing beams


i'll have to look up the programme on the last pics


.

.Keith

model.A.keith
06-13-2010, 03:57 PM
OK, so these cars are hillclimb cars not track cars. :)


yes, i don't do much track stuff, with two good hillclimbs within 20 miles im spoilt for choice ! :):)

.

.

The37Kid
06-13-2010, 04:02 PM
It will never happen, but I've always thought seeing all the Bugattis run up Prescott would be fun.:) yes, i don't do much track stuff, with two good hillclimbs within 20 miles im spoilt for choice ! :):)

.

.

model.A.keith
06-13-2010, 04:12 PM
It will never happen, but I've always thought seeing all the Bugattis run up Prescott would be fun.:)

Shelsley is more Historic


(we have a spare room)....... :)

.

.

T-Head
06-13-2010, 05:06 PM
[QUOTE=model.A.keith;5332883]Shelsley is more Historic


(we have a spare room)....... :)

Go to the Goodwood Festival of Speed I went with a car five years ago ....

It is out of this world.......

ebtm3
06-13-2010, 07:49 PM
What is the engine in the blown GN?

Herb Kephart

HJmaniac
06-13-2010, 09:37 PM
one more


http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/LM08/LeMans458.jpg


.

.

<HR style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #e5e5e5; COLOR: #e5e5e5" SIZE=1> <!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->
<TABLE class=WGW-3000-table border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=WGW-3200-tdExt><TABLE class=WGW-3200-tableMid border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 align=center><TBODY><TR><TD class=WGW-3210-tdInt></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>http://www.librarying.com/cars/4/24/Albums/Album1/Large/1930_montier_sp_ciale_ford.jpg</TD></TR><TR><TD class=WGW-3300-td>1930 montier spéciale ford.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Charles Montier was born in Napoli. His mother was Italian and his father was French he lived in Richelieu, Indre-et-Loire.
Charles worked for the Darracq firm after his military service, later he had a garage at Puteaux and was the distributor of Siva cars and from 1912, Ford. That year he entered a Ford-Montier 6CV in the French GP.
He moved to Paris and in 1923 after he criticised the ACF after they refused his entry for the Touring car race at the GP at Tours, he took revenge at Le Mans, finishing the first running of the 24 hour race, sharing a 2-litre Ford Montier Special with his brother-in-law Albert Ouriou in 14th place. In the 1924 and 1925 Le Mans races, they were forced to retire.
Charles and his son Ferdinand both raced. Respectively 9th and 10th of the Coupe de la Commission Sportive in 1927, Charles and Ferdinand gained their best results in the Grandes Epreuves during the 1930-1931 seasons, in the Belgian GP at Spa (6th, then 7th). In other races, at La Baule in 1926, the Montier Special finished second in the GP behind the Delage of Louis Wagner, and took fifth in the Rally du Soleil.
Charles specialised in American Fords and in 1930 he built a special based on a Ford Model A. He entered a "Montier Speciale" Ford V8 car in the the Belgian Grand Prix in the hope that amateur drivers would show an interest and buy one.
The 1933 Montier Speciale featured two Model A four cylinder engines mounted inline to create a straight eight. This was built on one of his 1930 Model chassis and fitted with long bonnet single-seater bodywork.
The Montier never won a major road race, it was often victorious in the 3-litre class in hillclimbs.
When Charles Montier was forced to withdraw his entry in the 1933 GP de la Baule he retired from the sport.
After racing, Charles and Ferdinand went into a Taxi company at Paris, using one of the Montier Specials in city trim until WW2.

<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

HJmaniac
06-13-2010, 09:41 PM
http://img.prewarcar.com/prewar/cars/Montier_Ford_1923_500RB.jpg

Named for its original driver, Charles Montier, the Model T Montier racer took part in the very first running of Le Mans back in 1923, finishing 14th overall. Now on July 12th and 13th for the fourth biennial Le Mans Classic at the iconic Sarthe circuit, under the Ecurie Ford France banner the very same car joined 400 competition vehicles and 1000 drivers for the massive event. Racing by turn before 81,000 spectators, the Montier managed to take 49th place -- not for a set of wheels that's 85 years old.

Based on the none other than the Model T Ford the 2 litre Montier Special placed fourteenth at the first 24 hour Le Mans in 1923 driven by Charles Montier, a distributor of Ford cars and creator of the Montier Special and his brother-in-law Albert Ouriou. Though Charles was never victorious in a major road race it wasn't for want of trying. He raced various versions of a Montier Special from the 1912 French GP through to the GP de la Baule in 1933. Charles Montier died in 1952.

It was built by Charles Montier, a Parisian Ford agent who made several sporting versions based on the Model T and later on the Model A.

Don Capps
06-14-2010, 12:50 AM
Quote: ehdubya

Interesting maps Don, This is Sheepshead 1915 350 mile start. Resta on pole, Aitken, Oldfield and Burman.

Your right about that...... here is a page from the November, 1915 Motor showing the same start. Photo 2.

And correct you are on this!

Another hard lesson in the dangers of uploading based on file names and then not doing a preview -- the photo I uploaded has an identical twin labeled "Brooklyn Sheepshead Bay 1915 01" -- how it got screwed up is probably due to my lack of attention to detail, especially with my "multi-tasker" being broke. We Luddites have these problems with all this sort of stuff....

I do have several photos I have gleaned from periodicals showing the Brighton Beach Motordrome, several being of the wrecks that took place there, making the track somewhat notorious. It was very much a horse racing track with a few modifications to accommodate automobile racing, such as banking in the turns.

model.A.keith
06-14-2010, 01:27 AM
Great Pixs......What is the last one???


T-H


Panhard Levassor - S4M



.

.

model.A.keith
06-14-2010, 01:28 AM
What is the engine in the blown GN?

Herb Kephart


Laystall


.

.

Don Capps
06-14-2010, 05:03 AM
These are from the group that the image of the Brighton Beach Motordrome should have been taken.

Life is very difficult for the Luddites in today's world....

ehdubya
06-14-2010, 06:02 AM
Your right about that...... here is a page from the November, 1915 Motor showing the same start. Photo 2.

Wow! what a prize! :)


It was very much a horse racing track with a few modifications to accommodate automobile racing, such as banking in the turns.

I think you're right that about that but I also think this large drome was also at Brighton.

This Luna Park Motordrome althought it appears very similar to the Brighton stadium or Manhattan Motordrome if you wish doesn't match this description (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50D12FF3A5517738DDDAF0994DF405B 818DF1D3) and could be Ohio as others seem to think.

http://www.motorcycle-memories.com/postersbig/353.%20Board%20track%20Luna%20Park.JPG

The horse track stand and fences were demolished in 1909 to make way for a housing development which stalled when adjacent property owners raised their prices too high and the auto club returned rebuilding the track for the 24 hr 'grind'. Ernie Moross was involved with the Brighton drome in some adminitrative role.
I still like the idea of Oldfield vs Johnson in a Luna Park style race but in this big drome in black and white cars :D

T-Head
06-14-2010, 08:50 AM
An interesting photo of Phil Shafer after winning the free for all race at Elgin in August 1933.

Don Capps
06-14-2010, 09:18 AM
If you take a careful look at this photograph, you will see the boxing ring that was erected by the Ocean Athletic Club for the Mike Gibbons vs. Packey McFarland fight on Brighton Beach in September 1915.

ebtm3
06-14-2010, 09:25 AM
Laystall


.

.


Thanks Keith!


Herb

kurtis
06-14-2010, 10:08 AM
Another postcard of the Luna Park Motordrome in Cleveland, Ohio. which has some similarities to the Chicago Motordrome in the second photo. There was also another Motordrome in Newark that claimed the lives of many motorcycle riders and spectators.

The last photo is the Brighton Beach track. Ira Vail and DePalma are in there somewhere.

Harry Bergeron
06-14-2010, 01:22 PM
The underside of a prewar BMW 328 2 liter, re-bodied for Le Mans, Mille Miglia, etc.

This was the first of 3 roadsters, 3 coupes, and an envelope body built over the 4 year program.

One of the coupes won the MM outright in 1940.
I love the poor man's rotisserie.

T-Head
06-14-2010, 03:09 PM
...

T-Head
06-14-2010, 04:55 PM
I found these photos which leave me wanting to know more and to be able to view the insides if any more photos exist. The photo of the elaborate gear train shows how much thought and time went into building these.

The Junior Special engines were reputed built Billy Brown and Riley Brett in Kanas City Mo. Cotton Henning and Tony Gulotta reportedly also helped out. These engines are reported to have gone into hand made racing cars

The following is what has been writen about it this engine by others; The head has individual runners for each of the valves: 4 per cylinder. The iron heads are detachable and are cast in three blocks of two cylinders each. The block and crankcase unit is aluminum, cast from World War I surplus mess kits (high quality aluminum ingots were not to be found in Kansas City). The cams supposedly act on the valves through radiused cup-type cam followers from what I have been able to read about them but I do not know if that is true. These cups are also cutaway around the edges to reduce their weight. The cams and front gear-train, with 11 straight-tooth gears, run in 38 ball-bearing bearings. The connecting rods are tubular Miller-style. The engine is also unusual in its use of battery ignition, adapted from a Delco aircraft system. The first engine ran with 3 Miller carbs while the second engine ran 2 with carbs. The complete engine was custom made with the exception of the Hudson Super Six crankshaft which had additional counterweights added.

Who can fill us in on more and also provide any photos of the cars they went into and their success?

onlychevrolets
06-14-2010, 05:15 PM
you might think those guys racing had some balls...but I think the people standing around the track like a human retaining wall had the balls...even the women. Cotton cord tires, wood spoke wheels, and big ol heavy engines.

model.A.keith
06-14-2010, 05:22 PM
Thanks Keith!


Herb


Herb,

remarkably the company still exists..............


http://www.laystall.co.uk/history.php



Keith

.

.

T-Head
06-15-2010, 07:26 AM
Possibly from the Chicago area, some grandstands are visible in the photo. Looks to be an average 30-40 HP car made into a racer.

psalt
06-15-2010, 07:35 AM
The Junior Special engines were reputed built Billy Brown and Riley Brett in Kanas City Mo. Cotton Henning and Tony Gulotta reportedly also helped out. These engines are reported to have gone into hand made racing cars


T-head,

The Junior special was a development of the Richards special, the first US twin cam six. Both used the Hudson Super Six counterbalanced crankshaft. The 5 ltr. Richards used adjustable mushroom tappets, probably similar to Birkigt's Hispano, also copied by FIAT. The engine ran to 4500 rpm, but had a lower output than the Ballot or Sunbeam, had tappet trouble, and a con rod failure at Indy in 1919. The 3 ltr. Junior special copied the Morin bucket tappets of the 1919 Ballot, which Miller also copied, but they were narrowed, crowned and keyed to prevent rotation. Similar tappets, but a much lighter design, were tried in the Offy in the 50's. This engine was supposedly good for 5000 rpm and finished the 1920 Indy 500 in 11th.

Paul

T-Head
06-15-2010, 07:42 AM
Paul.....thanks for all of the background information. T-H

T-Head
06-15-2010, 08:26 AM
Racers fashion statement of the day.

If you like great pre WWII automobile photos be sure to follow this link to twin6's photo thread.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=483757

T-Head
06-15-2010, 08:52 AM
...

T-Head
06-15-2010, 09:46 AM
Please stop by for more great photos and racing information at the link below.

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3723

twin6
06-15-2010, 09:54 AM
I have no idea where this was raced, maybe just a local track. Owner was J W Richley of York, PA and the car is a 1910 Buick model 23.

T-Head
06-15-2010, 10:04 AM
Twin6....That's neat maybe Buildy knows more about it.

Ken_Schou
06-15-2010, 12:15 PM
I don't think A existed, B and C were mini motordrome amusement park tracks but not as tight or vertical as what's become know as a Wall of Death.
I think the Jockey Club abandoned Brighton to the autos in 1907, it was too sandy to be a fast horse track. Pictures of the Brighton Motordrome once the banking started 1909-13 seem to be as rare as any reference to a Manhattan Beach Motordrome.


If the Coney Island Motordrome and the Dreamland Motordrome in Brooklyn, NY were "mini motordrome amusement park tracks" did they host any type of racing/competition or just thrill show type of exibitions? .... If racing/competition, when, etc?

THANKS in advance.

Buildy
06-15-2010, 12:29 PM
Hi Twin 6 and T-Head,

I don`t know any details on the car,but I would suspect it probably ran at the York Fairgrounds.

The37Kid
06-15-2010, 05:12 PM
Fashion statment, body work, or aero package?:rolleyes:

kurtis
06-15-2010, 07:31 PM
If the Coney Island Motordrome and the Dreamland Motordrome in Brooklyn, NY were "mini motordrome amusement park tracks" did they host any type of racing/competition or just thrill show type of exibitions? .... If racing/competition, when, etc?

THANKS in advance.

As far as i know these small saucer shaped tracks were only used as exhibitions. When the first few were built there would be one car or motorcycle running around but some of the more 'dare devilish' exhibitors later added another machine mostly driven or ridden by an assistant. In early newspaper articles these were at times called pursuit races but with little or no room to pass i don't think any were of a competitve nature, hence the assistant.

T-Head
06-16-2010, 07:47 AM
An interesting photo but i am unsure if the caption is correct. This is Sir Henry "Tim" Birkin in a Alfa Romeo leading W. Esplen in a Talbot at the Ards Tourist Trophy in 1932.

T-Head
06-16-2010, 07:51 AM
Another Birken? photo; Tim Birkin in a Blower Bentley leading Brian Lewis in a Talbot at the Brooklands 500 in 1930.

T-Head
06-16-2010, 07:56 AM
One more photo that is out of my area that I am unsure of the caption; Tazio Nuvolari posing in the cockpit of his Alfa Romeo with Marion Claire (Opera and Radio star) at the 1936 Vanderbilt Cup Race which he won.

T-Head
06-16-2010, 08:07 AM
Again I am unsure if this is a correct caption; Bugatti of Malcolm Campbell during a bit of an emergency at the 1928 Tourist Trophy Race. (Malcolm is behind the guy in the light colored coat and he has a fire extinguisher in his hand trying to quell the flames).

gnichols
06-16-2010, 08:09 AM
An interesting photo but i am unsure if the caption is correct. This is Sir Henry "Tim" Birkin in a Alfa Romeo leading W. Esplen in a Talbot at the Ards Tourist Trophy in 1932.

Interesting photo... I'm wondering if running only one fender was just fashionable? Or was his right front fender the only one that remained at this point in the race? Gary

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1004211&d=1276692446 (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1004211&d=1276692446)

T-Head
06-16-2010, 08:11 AM
...

Don Capps
06-16-2010, 09:33 AM
I think the Jockey Club abandoned Brighton to the autos in 1907, it was too sandy to be a fast horse track.

The reason that the Brighton Beach track turned to automobile racing had absolutely nothing to do with the track surface, but rather that betting on horse racing was made illegal in New York State. These anti-betting laws were not repealed until 1913, much too late to save a number of New York City tracks from closure during this time, including Sheepshead Bay, Brighton Beach, and Gravesend, among others.

In 1897, there were just over 300 horse racing tracks (official count was 314) in operation in the US, but in 1908 there were only 25 still operating. Among those states outlawing gambling at race tracks were New York and California, along with Michigan, Illinois, Texas and the District of Columbia among a number of others.

Prior to laws passed in 1908 and 1910, "oral betting" was allowed at NY tracks under earlier laws restricting betting. However, even these laws had the effect of reducing horse and harness (trotting or driving) racing activities, reducing racing seasons and keeping patrons away. Although horse racing obviously did not die out in New York, races still being held despite the lack of any betting, it was dealt a severe blow.

Keep in mind that there was a similar situation in California, many tracks either closing or running greatly reduced schedules due to the anti-gambling legislation of the time.

Once again, the relationship between horse (and harness) racing and automobile racing in the early decades of the 20th Century is a bit more complex -- and convoluted -- than most assume it to be.

Also keep in mind that "The Good Roads" lobby that campaigned the various state governments, as well as Washington, of course, and which was supported by the AAA and the ACA and the other automobile clubs, began to have some success by the end of the first decade, one factor in the increase of the number of road races at that time.

There were a number of factors, not necessarily in synch with one another, at work during this period as the development of American automobile racing stumbled along trying to compete with the other sports of the day.

twin6
06-16-2010, 10:13 AM
Again I am unsure if this is a correct caption; Bugatti of Malcolm Campbell during a bit of an emergency at the 1928 Tourist Trophy Race. (Malcolm is behind the guy in the light colored coat and he has a fire extinguisher in his hand trying to quell the flames).

I have it on pretty good authority this is a well known and correctly captioned photo. The T43 TT cars were experimenting with a rubber bladder gas tank, a design that didn't catch on (sorry, couldn't resist).

Vitesse
06-16-2010, 12:14 PM
Yep - as twin6 says, the Campbell picture is well-known. There are quite a few others of the same incident, since it was spectacular to say the least. By the time the fire was extinguished, the car was a complete wreck. It wasn't insured either ...

The 1932 TT picture was taken at Quarry Corner, a standard photo spot at Ards because the cars were slowing for the bend. Bill Esplen is driving a Talbot 90. Picking up on the "one fender" comment, the TT regulations for 1932 permitted removal of normal "touring" equipment - note that Esplen's car has none! I'm not sure why Birkin only has one though - perhaps his Alfa had a habit of throwing stones or spray inboard rather than away?

The Talbot on the Brooklands banking in 1930 is a single-seater conversion of a Talbot 90. In the 1930 '500' Brian Lewis shared this car with Earl Howe - they won their class, finishing third overall on distance covered and fourth on handicap.

I like the one of Tazio - he appears to be wearing the same jacket as in one of the photos on Howard Kroplick's site: taken on the same day?

kurtis
06-16-2010, 12:47 PM
Some more Birken photos. Apologies for the bad qaulity.

First - Finishing 10th in a Maserati at the 1931 German GP and about to pass the ill handling Buick of Red Shafer.

Second - I believe he is driving the #46 Bentley at Brooklands in 1932. I can't name the other driver's at this time.

The last photo is from the 1932 TT @ Ards-Belfast. The two Riley's of George Eyston {2nd} and Victor Gillow {DNF}. Interestingly, this is at the same corner as the photo in TH's post.

T-Head
06-16-2010, 01:11 PM
Yep - as twin6 says, the Campbell picture is well-known. There are quite a few others of the same incident, since it was spectacular to say the least. By the time the fire was extinguished, the car was a complete wreck. It wasn't insured either ...

I like the one of Tazio - he appears to be wearing the same jacket as in one of the photos on Howard Kroplick's site: taken on the same day?

Vitesse....Thanks again for the background info, I am well aware of all of the foreign contests and some of the players but there is never enough time to learn it all. T-H

Vitesse
06-16-2010, 03:51 PM
Kurtis: your second picture is the final of the 1932 Empire Trophy on April 30th 1932. #47 is John Cobb in the V12 Delage, #46 Birkin, #44 George Eyston's Panhard and #42 Jack Dunfee's Speed Six Bentley. If you look carefully, you can see another driver and the top of his car behind Eyston. Almost certainly Earl Howe in his Delage 15S8, looking at the helmet. Not visible for some reason is the other starter, Henken Widengren with his OM.

ehdubya
06-17-2010, 05:35 AM
The reason that the Brighton Beach track turned to automobile racing had absolutely nothing to do with the track surface, but rather that betting on horse racing was made illegal in New York State.

The Coney Island Jockey Club had two tracks to choose from and persevered with Sheepshead until 1915.
Another 1909 article on the motordrome conversion (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9A0DE0DE1F31E733A25754C2A9619C94 6897D6CF)

kurtis
06-17-2010, 09:17 AM
Kurtis: your second picture is the final of the 1932 Empire Trophy on April 30th 1932. #47 is John Cobb in the V12 Delage, #46 Birkin, #44 George Eyston's Panhard and #42 Jack Dunfee's Speed Six Bentley. If you look carefully, you can see another driver and the top of his car behind Eyston. Almost certainly Earl Howe in his Delage 15S8, looking at the helmet. Not visible for some reason is the other starter, Henken Widengren with his OM.

I don't have any books or other info to go by in regards to the racing that took place in Britain so i'm somewhat confused about some of the events, namely this particular race.
My question is, why are Widengren's OM and the Delage 15S8, i assume both being of 1.5 liter capacity, racing against the larger displacement cars?
Also, is the Delage the ex. Rene Thomas mount or is it the car brought into the country in 1924 {or somewhere around there}?

T-Head
06-17-2010, 10:09 AM
I have posted the first photo before, it was supposed to have been taken at Jacksonville, Fla. were there were also races on the beach.

The second photo just surfaced of the same car with a different number on it at what appears to be a track somewhere. Parked right next to it is a Model T Ford racer, so changes are it was a minor race of some form.

Based on this second photo, can anyone identify the car?

Vitesse
06-17-2010, 12:31 PM
I don't have any books or other info to go by in regards to the racing that took place in Britain so i'm somewhat confused about some of the events, namely this particular race.
My question is, why are Widengren's OM and the Delage 15S8, i assume both being of 1.5 liter capacity, racing against the larger displacement cars?
Also, is the Delage the ex. Rene Thomas mount or is it the car brought into the country in 1924 {or somewhere around there}?
The 1932 Empire Trophy was a peculiar event - in both senses of the word. For a start, it was a scratch race - very unusual at Brooklands. There were two heats, also run off scratch rather than handicaps. The original plan was for four heats, with the leading four in each going forward to the final. Sadly, an already poor entry was further reduced by withdrawals and the 750cc, 1100cc and 2000cc classes were run off together, with just 8 cars taking the flag. Howe won that from Widengren, with Bill Humphreys' 1100cc Amilcar and the Earl of March's "Dutch Clog" Austin 7 the only other finishers.

The over 2000cc heat was won by Eyston from Dunfee, Cobb and Birkin, all of whom lined up for the final with Howe and Widengren. I've never seen an explanation of why Humphreys and the Earl of March didn't run in the final. Birkin's Bentley cracked its cylinder head and retired but the story of the race was a duel between Cobb and Eyston, who crossed the line almost together. Eyston, initially reluctant but persuaded by friends, protested Cobb for blocking: the Stewards then awarded the race to Eyston, but this decision was reversed on appeal.

There were subsidiary trophies for the heats: the India Trophy, won by Howe, and the Australia Trophy, won by Eyston. Confusingly, there was also a motorcycle race at the meeting, for which the New Zealand Trophy was awarded!

The Delage is indeed the ex-René Thomas 10.7 litre V12 LSR car, later driven by Oliver Bertram and Kay Petre.

http://www.dlg.speedfreaks.org/archive/gen/1932.html#empire

gnichols
06-18-2010, 06:10 AM
... Picking up on the "one fender" comment, the TT regulations for 1932 permitted removal of normal "touring" equipment - note that Esplen's car has none! I'm not sure why Birkin only has one though - perhaps his Alfa had a habit of throwing stones or spray inboard rather than away? ...

I got to thinking about this again later... perhaps the riding mechanic wasn't all that amused by not having some debris protection and insisted the fender on that side of the car be retained? Gary

T-Head
06-18-2010, 06:58 AM
Can anyone identify this driver and his mechanic, or the grandstand in background?

QCMC
06-19-2010, 09:00 AM
Here is one that may be of interest to you people who like the early races. The Point Breeze Race track in Philadelphia was a one mile dirt track that had a large grandstand plus a good sized hotel. The races ran from 1906 to about 1912. The program for the July 29, 1911 event states that it is the "Fifth Annual Track Meet". The later races were run under the rules and sanction of the relatively new AAA Contest Board, of which my grandfather was a member. There are some additional pictures that can be posted.

twin6
06-19-2010, 09:16 AM
Welcome aboard, QCMC, and thank you for sharing this (and more, perhaps).

The37Kid
06-19-2010, 09:27 AM
Welcome to the HAMB QCMC! Look forward to more photos. This is a photo of Oldfield in the Blitzen Benz at Point Breeze, the timing tower in the infield was one of the nicest looking ones IMO.

The37Kid
06-19-2010, 09:29 AM
QCMC === Quaker City Motor Club?

noboD
06-19-2010, 09:34 AM
Welcome QCMC! Motorcycle Club?

QCMC
06-19-2010, 11:26 AM
The37Kid, you are a hard one to fool! My grandfather was president of this organization in 1908.

The37Kid
06-19-2010, 11:35 AM
I've got some scrapbooks from that era put together by a young H.D.Carpenter, he went on to own the 1919 Ira Vail INDY Hudson along with the 122 MILLER that Vail ran at INDY in 1924-25. Philadelphia must have been a great place to watch racing in the 1920's. :)The37Kid, you are a hard one to fool! My grandfather was president of this organization in 1908.

The37Kid
06-19-2010, 11:45 AM
Point Breeze must have one heck of a track! I just stole this off a Google search. QCMC please give us a history lesson on the track. http://www.geh.org/ar/strip16/m198130510925.jpg

The37Kid
06-19-2010, 12:15 PM
The37Kid, you are a hard one to fool! My grandfather was president of this organization in 1908.

For extra credit that would be P.D.Folwell, correct? :)

ebtm3
06-19-2010, 12:39 PM
My father talked about going there, but I think that he was talking about motorcycle races

Herb

kurtis
06-19-2010, 02:32 PM
The 1932 Empire Trophy was a peculiar event - in both senses of the word. For a start, it was a scratch race - very unusual at Brooklands. There were two heats, also run off scratch rather than handicaps. The original plan was for four heats, with the leading four in each going forward to the final. Sadly, an already poor entry was further reduced by withdrawals and the 750cc, 1100cc and 2000cc classes were run off together, with just 8 cars taking the flag. Howe won that from Widengren, with Bill Humphreys' 1100cc Amilcar and the Earl of March's "Dutch Clog" Austin 7 the only other finishers.

The over 2000cc heat was won by Eyston from Dunfee, Cobb and Birkin, all of whom lined up for the final with Howe and Widengren. I've never seen an explanation of why Humphreys and the Earl of March didn't run in the final. Birkin's Bentley cracked its cylinder head and retired but the story of the race was a duel between Cobb and Eyston, who crossed the line almost together. Eyston, initially reluctant but persuaded by friends, protested Cobb for blocking: the Stewards then awarded the race to Eyston, but this decision was reversed on appeal.

There were subsidiary trophies for the heats: the India Trophy, won by Howe, and the Australia Trophy, won by Eyston. Confusingly, there was also a motorcycle race at the meeting, for which the New Zealand Trophy was awarded!

The Delage is indeed the ex-René Thomas 10.7 litre V12 LSR car, later driven by Oliver Bertram and Kay Petre.

http://www.dlg.speedfreaks.org/archive/gen/1932.html#empire

Thanks.

It's difficult to get a handle on the way the races were run at Brooklands.

I remember reading something about the Dunfee brothers some time ago so i went on a search to find it. Unfortunately it couldn't be found but i came across an interesting read about the case of the Bentley Speed Six driven by Dunfee in the Empire Trophy race. This was a court case that took place 20 years ago.

Go here... www.gomog.com/articles/no1judgement.html (http://www.gomog.com/articles/no1judgement.html)

kurtis
06-19-2010, 02:44 PM
Welcome QCMC.

I've read about the Quaker City Motor Club in the Michael J. Seneca book. Very enjoyable.
I look forward to learning more about the club and your grandfather.

BTW, do you have any link to the forthcoming QCMC site?

kurtis
06-19-2010, 02:45 PM
Herb,

Thanks for the Pop Shunk cam drawings. Much appreciated.

K...

Slick Willy
06-19-2010, 03:13 PM
Well, I had posted on this thread a while ago about auto racing at the Marshfield Fair in Massachusetts... I found out it did happen, mostly before 1937, and actually appeared in the Guiness book for some reason that had to do with a cars owner being killed by the driver in turn one when the car lost control pinning the owner(not driver), who was watching, against a tree! I am still on the hunt for some photos and other stuff. I have some good leads and will post my results soon I hope.
While doing my "research" I came across these photos (I searched and hope these aren't duplicates) from a little later at Readville Park,(Readville,MA) which has been mentioned earlier.
The driver of the wreck, Al Frazier, was killed in the fire...

http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww78/SlickWillyCustoms/readville2.jpg?t=1276978080

http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww78/SlickWillyCustoms/readville.jpg?t=1276978080

http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww78/SlickWillyCustoms/alfrazierdeath2.jpg?t=1276978080

http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww78/SlickWillyCustoms/alfrazierdeath.jpg?t=1276978080

The37Kid
06-19-2010, 03:21 PM
Thank you Willy, There is a softcover book on the Readville track, they started racing there before 1910 I believe. Sad photos of that Model A Ford wreck. The first two show cars that should be ID'd.

Slick Willy
06-19-2010, 03:33 PM
I believe thats the source where I got the photos...It was linked with the Boston Public Library site however this magic box works!

The37Kid
06-19-2010, 03:35 PM
Trust me, your photos are far better quality than the ones in the book.

QCMC
06-19-2010, 04:10 PM
For extra credit that would be P.D.Folwell, correct? :)

Riight again! You should be the one giving the history lesson on Point Breeze!

My information on this track is quite limited. For some reason I think the Fairmount Park races received a lot more publicity and became better known than the Point Breeze races. Perhaps the fact that the Fairmount Park races were initially an attempt to steal the thunder from the famous Vanderbilt Cup races had something to do with it.

model.A.keith
06-19-2010, 04:23 PM
A little something ..........:)



http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/5window188.jpg



http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/5window200.jpg



http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/5window207.jpg



.


.

model.A.keith
06-19-2010, 04:32 PM
A nice 'original' T51


http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/Le%20Vien%20Bleu/hamb001.jpg



http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/Le%20Vien%20Bleu/hamb004.jpg



http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/Le%20Vien%20Bleu/hamb003.jpg



.

.

Vitesse
06-19-2010, 05:02 PM
Thanks.

It's difficult to get a handle on the way the races were run at Brooklands.

l (http://www.gomog.com/articles/no1judgement.html)
The only hard and fast rule is that there is no hard and fast rule! To really understand it you need both Bill Boddy's "Brooklands" and Tony Hutchings' "The Administration of Motor Racing at Brooklands" plus access to original reports. The two books will cost you the thick end of 150 of your Aussie dollars :)

The37Kid
06-19-2010, 05:02 PM
Nice photos Keith, not to be picky, but that is a twin cam Type 51.:)

model.A.keith
06-20-2010, 02:01 AM
Nice photos Keith, not to be picky, but that is a twin cam Type 51.:)


No worries, :):)


.

.

model.A.keith
06-20-2010, 04:17 AM
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s116/modelakeith/Le%20Vien%20Bleu/hamb208.jpg


.


.

twin6
06-20-2010, 08:13 AM
...

kurtis
06-20-2010, 12:35 PM
T6,

I check my results folder as i sometimes do when a photo has been posted to learn about the particular race but the race at the Concord track on the 3rd of July 1908 was not listed. In fact there were no races on that date.

BTW, i've never seen a photo of this track. I honestly thought it was better than what is shown in the photo.

Michael Ferner
06-20-2010, 03:05 PM
The car is in the Midwest under restoration
http://66.154.44.164/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=995454&d=1275918703

:confused: Is that so? I'm sure I've seen pictures of the restored car many, many years ago, it can't possibly be in need of another restoration. Or are we talking two different entities?

http://66.154.44.164/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=401682&d=1200629980

Here's a picture of the restored car in its '41 livery (from page 1 of the Sprint Car thread).

Michael Ferner
06-20-2010, 03:33 PM
Well, I had posted on this thread a while ago about auto racing at the Marshfield Fair in Massachusetts... I found out it did happen, mostly before 1937, and actually appeared in the Guiness book for some reason that had to do with a cars owner being killed by the driver in turn one when the car lost control pinning the owner(not driver), who was watching, against a tree! I am still on the hunt for some photos and other stuff. I have some good leads and will post my results soon I hope.
While doing my "research" I came across these photos (I searched and hope these aren't duplicates) from a little later at Readville Park,(Readville,MA) which has been mentioned earlier.
The driver of the wreck, Al Frazier, was killed in the fire...

http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww78/SlickWillyCustoms/readville2.jpg?t=1276978080

http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww78/SlickWillyCustoms/readville.jpg?t=1276978080



Those pictures are from September 5 (Labor Day) in 1932. The Al Fraser wreck (that's the spelling I have, no idea which one is right) happened in a support race for "Light Cars", apparently "Modifieds" in an early form. The first two pictures are from the "Big Car" (Sprint Car) race, a 50-miler won by Mauri Rose, the second of his three big wins that year (also Langhorne 50 on Aug 13 and Detroit 100 on Sep 10).

There are a couple of interesting Indy Cars in the field: #61 in the first picture is the 1931 (Louie) Meyer/Miller, 4th at Indy in both 1931 and '32 - I don't know who drove it that day. The car in the centre of the second picture (with the boys standing around it) is the 1930 Romthe/Studebaker - "Romthe" was an acronym of six Studebaker engineers who dipped a toe into the Indy water for the South Bend manufacturer. It's possible that the car was driven by Malcolm Fox, who finished second in the race.

EDIT: also in the second picture, #47 is the GNH (George N. Howie)/Chrysler, a 1931 Indy Car.

The37Kid
06-20-2010, 03:41 PM
Michael, is the #5 car the one Chuck Davis restored years ago? If so I have this car confused with the other top IMCA car, the drivers name escapes me right now.

Michael Ferner
06-20-2010, 05:21 PM
Yes, I believe that's the Chuck Davis car. Were you thinking of Emory Collins?

T-Head
06-20-2010, 06:19 PM
QCMC.... Glad you have finally been able to post..... Please share more of your treasure trove with us. I hope the you have had the two seater out. I just got back from Bean town from an event with Sam and Peter's old bucket of bolts. Looking forward to seeing more of you photos. T-H

Michael Ferner
06-21-2010, 09:18 AM
What happened to the Bob Swanson Vanderbilt Cup stretched Midget after the race? Was it converted back to a Midget? Does it exist today?:confused:

http://66.154.44.164/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=988306&d=1275233900

In the foreword to his CRA book (Vol. 1), Buzz Rose mentions that he bought this car from Louie Senter in the fall of 1955, and sold it to Harry Abajian later. No other info except that it had a DO Cragar back then, and I have no idea if there is any truth to it!

twin6
06-21-2010, 10:54 AM
This is not strictly under the topic of racing, but is probably not going to be appreciated by any group more than loyal followers of this thread. Back on post 1356, I include a photo of the 1904 Packard model L that crashed in the first 1000 mile endurance run. A friend just acquired these photos, which I do not believe have been published in any book. The 1000 mile run was well covered and there are many photos but none that we recall showing the grandstand. The track was not illuminated, so the published statements about Schmidt and Boyd losing lights before the crash was in reference to the acetylene lamps on the car. In the second run, August 6 - 8, 1904, Charles Schmidt and E F Roberts drove to completion without stopping except for tires. Trouble developed with the trembler for the #1 cylinder, and this was repaired while in motion. If you look at the closeup, you'll see a third person in the car, and it appears to be the repairman. My apologies for less than perfect photos. These are photos of photos.

twin6
06-21-2010, 10:57 AM
And for those who require documentation to be satisfied, here are the affidavits of the drivers and "mechanicians."

T-Head
06-21-2010, 12:26 PM
This action packed photo was posted on the Model T Ford racing thread on the Ford barn. The inside car is a T and the other appears to be an Essex in a barrel race. They both seem to want to be in the same spot at once which lead to this photo. Follow this link to see the thread.

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3723

kurtis
06-21-2010, 07:17 PM
I'm aware that some don't care much for the crash photos, but acknowledge they too are part of history. In that spirit, here is the 1904 model L Packard that was driven by Jack Boyd in a 1,000 mile endurance run at the Grosse Point track on June 24, 1904. Bev Kimes' book contains some better photos and a good writeup for those interested in more information. The crash was the result of losing their driving lights after midnight, and miraculously no one was killed. Boyd's mechanic on the run was Charles Schmidt, who was well known as driver of the Grey Wolf, which has been the subject of many prior posts.

http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy36/Montier33/American%20Auto%20Racing/model20L.jpg

This is not strictly under the topic of racing, but is probably not going to be appreciated by any group more than loyal followers of this thread. Back on post 1356, I include a photo of the 1904 Packard model L that crashed in the first 1000 mile endurance run. A friend just acquired these photos, which I do not believe have been published in any book. The 1000 mile run was well covered and there are many photos but none that we recall showing the grandstand. The track was not illuminated, so the published statements about Schmidt and Boyd losing lights before the crash was in reference to the acetylene lamps on the car. In the second run, August 6 - 8, 1904, Charles Schmidt and E F Roberts drove to completion without stopping except for tires. Trouble developed with the trembler for the #1 cylinder, and this was repaired while in motion. If you look at the closeup, you'll see a third person in the car, and it appears to be the repairman. My apologies for less than perfect photos. These are photos of photos.

T6,
I find it remarkable what these cars were capable of. There is also a strong argument that the auto's from yesteryear are more efficient than today's digitized gas guzzlers.

I did a some delving into this 'race' but i'm not so sure if the information is 100% correct.
First, the date i have is 7-8th August 1904. The driver's listed are Charles Schmidt, Ed Roberts and S.D. Waldon and the car is described as a Peerless "Grey Wolf" designed by Schmidt.
Second, the record run was completed in 29 hours, 53 minutes and 37 seconds. During the run, Schmidt was relieved by Roberts for 238 laps and Waldon completed 253 laps. Jack Boyd is not mentioned.

There was also an event that took place at this track on the 26-27th August with a couple of Handicap and 'Open' races. Schmidt competed in a 10 Mile Open race on the 27th, crashing after 4 laps. The car he was driving was the Packard "Grey Wolf".

kurtis
06-21-2010, 07:43 PM
I found this photo of the 1904 Packard Model L record car but there is a question about the radiator belonging to a 1905 Model N. ????
I'll leave it to the experts to explain this.

http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy36/Montier33/American%20Auto%20Racing/1904pl.jpg