Caveman tech - building a bellhousing for a flathead cadillac

[zibo]

Hi guys.
I've been peckin away on this part of another project for a while.
And figured would throw some of these pics on here,
maybe it will help people to tackle something similar, or teach people what not to do...
Usually I like to post when its done, but here it goes anyway.
(Some of you have seen this already so pardon the duplo...)

So got this '41 caddy in a trade,
and it had been sitting for 2 years and finally found the perfect project for it.

It came with a stock sideshifter tranny that made the whole chelada about 6ft long, serious.
I wouldn't have minded it but I'd really like an OverDrive tranny so decided on a Saginaw 3spd OD.
Yeah they're an older version but this engine is torky enough to pull through the gears,
and I have a couple if one blows up.

The first part was making a template for the tranny.
The circle was about 4 3/4 " and this was perfect.
I've found galvanized sheetmetal is one of the best template makers.
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/grinder3146.jpg
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/grinder3149.jpg
a pick hammer found the holes...
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/grinder3155.jpg
and a little trimming an almost perfect template.

Since we have alot of scrap at the shop, decided 3/8" piece for the ends.
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/grinder3165.jpg
and some really rough torch work.
I didn't want to over cut it...
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/grinder3167.jpg
After a couple minutes of grinding...
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/grinder3168.jpg
kept on using the template to spray the area to be ground out.
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/grinder3172.jpg
would use the "rub the paint off" method to find the parts out of round.
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/grinder3170.jpg
Than when the hole fit the tranny,
eyeballed the center punch to the bolt-holes...
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/grinder3175.jpg
and drilled a small guide hole.
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/grinder3179.jpg
Than cleaned up the outside with the circle sander.

TP

[stealthcruiser]

Thats cool brother!

Invest in a set of drill bushings for "finding them holes", will save you a lot of time, and frustration trying to keep it in place when "hammer locating" the holes.

Looks damn good though!

[zibo]

The engine side was more difficult.
Here's what we got to start with.
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/ring01.jpg
It is an octagonal engine, with a round flywheel.
I hadn't really looked as much at the rear, so any ideas I'd been sleeping on were kinda useless.
The flywheel goes outside of the block.
The STOCK bellhousing is a TOP HALF bellhousing.
using a large bottom pan to cover up the flywheel.
At first the idea was to copy that,
but it just didn't as rigid, especially since the engine is so heavy,
engine to tranny sag is an issue.

Another issue is the starter takes up a huge section of the passenger side.
For some reason there are no bottom threaded bolts either,
so the whole thing rests on those 4 top bolts!

The other thing I didn't realize is the saginaw has no tranny mounts.
The bellhousing will also need to double as the rear eng/tranny mount.
(The stock caddy has a rear mount though)
So decided as obvious by the multiple templates needed,
to make a full circle bellhousing.
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/ring02.jpg

The templates were only half used though.
After alot of blank stares,
figured out the smartest way was to make a circle as big as the flywheel, about 16",
than another circle 1 1/4" bigger,
And use the templates to mark the areas that went outside of this minimum circle,
and add enough flab for the starter.
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/ring03.jpg
After some much better torchwork, whittled it out...
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/ring04.jpg
Once the ring was ground a little closer to fit,
did the center punch trick again and popped some holes...
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/ring05.jpg

Now it was time I thought to mock it all up...
TP

[zibo]

Dang it I gotta go be back in a little bit...
TP

[Cadzook]

I'll be interested in seeing this. It's nice to see someone go for it, when people would tell you it can't be done! Nice to see a low tech approach.
Thanks
Alden

[fiftyv8]

Nice work Zibo keep it coming.
Our Cadillac Tech stuff is building up real good now.

[skajaquada]

this is nice to see. will be referring to this when it's time to get my flat caddy bolted to something.:D

[zibo]

Whoops excuse the delay there,
these posts take a little time and got some free time to work at the shop.

Anyway,
using the circle cut out,
made a jig to make an extension.
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/jig3221.jpg
I had imagined using flat plate, and bending it in wide strips,
but the circular problem mentioned before changed that.

So me and no-glove friend Pigpen (luke) started the torch-work.
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/jig3224.jpg
if you notice his gloves are on that burnt piece of paper on the left...
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/jig3225.jpg
Fortunately no burns though.

After alot of heavy duty heat and dolly work,
got the ring into a resemblence of a circle...
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/jig3228.jpg
It actually sprung in a little, not out.
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/jig3233.jpg
and tacked it on to the mounted base.
Of course the first time it was too tight,
but the second time worked fine.
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/jig3236.jpg
Than removed it to tack the inside a little.
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/jig3230.jpg

I'd hoped to be able to begin joining the two pieces,
but there were a couple more important steps inbetween,
First was adding 2 bottom threaded holes in the block,
and figured 2 set studs? would be good too.

The difficult step is the starter location.
It is fixed (no adjustment) and without the original bellhousing for a template,
is tricky for this caveman...

TP

[blue collar stu]

i take it you dont have access to anything as fancy as a brake press? then you could form the can out of one piece of plate (with a hell of a bunch of templates and patience)
this thread has me hankering for hitting something with a really big hammer.

[levelup2]

Thanks for all your post

[Kevin Lee]

Very cool. Is this going in the '40?

Anxious to see how you form the bell – I want to do something similar for a scatter shield on the inside of my coupe.

[Crusty Nut]

Nice work, I want to see more.

[zibo]

thanks guys...
Kevin - yep, but don't tell anyone!

OK so the starter.
First figured i'd better attach the flywheel a little better.
The flywheel is weird,
it is a solid steel flywheel, attached to a flex-plate like thing made of copper,
that is sandwiched between two pieces of steel.
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/copper3237.jpg
It wasn't on securely as it was removed to weld the inside of the new bell.

This is serious caveman here.
If you look back at the block picture,
there is a big cutout where the starter should go.
The starter sits somewhere in that arc.

So first made a template of the arc,
and then made a template of the circle on the starters base, that goes into the plate.
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/magic3239.jpg
Then moved them around til they looked like they'd be right ;)
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/magic3242.jpg
of course ran out of white paint so used the worst possible color, the color of fire...
so of course the hole was too small, but better small than too big...
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j71/perichbrothers/rusty/thedick3245.jpg
This is called a 'donkey dick' a well used one anyway...
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/magic3249.jpg
after a little grinding the hole looked round,
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/magic3247.jpg
and using the same paint and rub method,
the starter plopped in as perfect as a grinder could get, like magic.

When the bell was placed back on,
a tooth check was in order.
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/magic3252.jpg
and according to some trusted individuals,
somewhere between a paper clip or 2 paper clips should be in the crown and base,
which is about right where it sat, even though it looks tight cause of the shadow.
I clamped the starter on and zipped the starter with a battery,
and it didn't make any chirping noises, and the gear went in and out,
but I decided to hold off on the permanent tapped holes in the base,
only center punched where they should be, just in case.

http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/magic3260.jpg
So since that headache was mostly done,
made up the last part of the ring.
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/magic3268.jpg
and zapped it all in place.
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/magic3263.jpg
rechecked the starter/flywheel teeth and it didn't seem to move.

Anyway that was a good night.

TP

[zibo]

Man these posts take long,
anyway here's a lunchtime update...
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/turtle3295.jpg
Attached the pressureplate, and threaded the new block holes, finishwelded the main ring.
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/turtle3297.jpg
Also threaded the tranny base plate holes, exciting stuff I forgot to take pictures of...

Started the mock up, this took a couple tries since I forgot the throwout bearing etc.
But basically centered it with the flywheel bearing,
then degree wheeled it to the flywheel and tranny plate, and side to side,
and took as many measurements as possible to keep it as parallel to the full circle.
The input shaft is about 5/8" shorter than the caddy,
but there's just enough room for a couple variations of the clutch arm.
TP

[sko_ford]

dude when i saw your teaser shot i was intrigued. now i'm amazed. i thought i was caveman. i dont think ive found the cave yet or at least not fire

[Shaggy]

Hmmm, nice

I'm probably gunna do the same myself only hemi/hydro and i have full access to a waterjet and fab shop

[captainjunk#2]

great tech post , thats one burly welding table , looks like youd need a derek to move it keep posting as you build very interesting stuff

[saltflatmatt]

WOW- Great post!! I wish I could add more!

[zman]

keep it coming.... nice stuff right here...

[brewsir]

shweeet! You should have saved this one for tech week....great project!

[60 Belair]

looks great
lookin forward to the next segment

[zibo]

great tech post , thats one burly welding table , looks like youd need a derek to move it keep posting as you build very interesting stuff

Its called an "acorn" table. Or so i've heard anyway.
These were at an old shipyard in San Diego, used since WWII probably.
They're great for bending stuff, hammering stuff, with heat.
I've made some all-thread clamps that hold things on for past projects,
so they've become more and more useable.

I guess there're also these wedge things that can go in the holes,
for pounding, i'll get some pics later.
(we used a crane truck and forklift to move em, heavy fokkers)

Will get some more updates soon...

TP

[zibo]

shweeet! You should have saved this one for tech week....great project!

The sticky post above said tech starts on the dec 15th,
but it just has to end after the 15th.
(hmm I better print that out for proof huh!..)
Anyway I've got alot more time needed to finish it so its shouldn't be an issue...
I think finishing it before January 15th is the issue!
TP

[tomslik]

damn you're ambitious!
ever think about using an outdated scattershield for some of it?
it AIN'T gonna pass sfi stuff anyway...


i vote this gets included in tech week!!!!

[T McG]

I am in the process of installing a 48 Cad flathead in a 40 packard. Weird combo but thats what the guy wants.

We went the easy route and bought the adapter from Bentsen. Fits like a glove but it was $800.

[zibo]

Yeah I considered it trying to adapt another bellhousing,
but the saginaw based ones are either cast aluminum or iron,
which is basically useless for this project.

The Bentsen adapter huh, cool that they make one for the oddball tranny.
kinda trying to save that $800 even if its only $2/hr after torch gas, discs, materials etc....

Well we have a ton of zinc chromated coated 1/4" plate,
which is nasty to cut, torch, grind and weld,
but its good stuff.
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/turtle3301.jpg

This is the start...

http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/turtle3304.jpg

TP

Tomslik - Thanks for the entry vote!

[fiftyv8]

Dont you just love guys with no fear...
keep at it buddy.

[Flipper]

Dont you just love guys with no fear...
keep at buddy.

......and brains, tools, and skills

[InjectorTim]

Anything but caveman! Good work so far!

[PeteMattersen]

Interesting

[zibo]

Thanks guys...
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j71/perichbrothers/rusty/turtle3309.jpg
While it woulda been nice to use less pieces and heat/brake-bend that plate,
it easier to get it more precise with the template-cut-weld method,
less grinding to fit this way.
TP

[Mr48chev]

That's quite an undertaking. How are you keeping everything square and true?e
Getting the trans mount plate square to the engine and having the input shaft on the trans exactly centered in the end of the crankshaft has to be a challange.

I could visualize a few of the guys milling the plates out with their Bridgeports but that is unreal.

[TV]

Travis, you always send chills up my spine. But I gotta hand it to ya, YOU THE MAN. We made something like that, but with aluminum and a big lathe.--TV

[Kevin Lee]

I like the galvanized templates.

[DYNODANNY]

This is some good shit CHAVES! keep up the good work. See you soon.

[ray]

That's quite an undertaking. How are you keeping everything square and true?e
Getting the trans mount plate square to the engine and having the input shaft on the trans exactly centered in the end of the crankshaft has to be a challange.

I could visualize a few of the guys milling the plates out with their Bridgeports but that is unreal.

that's the caveman part!

really though Zibo, i applaud your effort to make a bellhousing, but you really should have farmed at least a little bit out to a machine shop. you stand a real good chance of some driveline vibrations, or clutch chatter. the tranny and engine should be lined up within a few thousandths of an inch. that is possible with a homemade bell, but not really the way you are making it. being it is all torch cut and ground, there is nothing machined to come off of for dialing in the crank. the very minimum should be a nice round machined hole for the tranny to register in, with this hole true, you can fab up the bellhousing, and tweak it in using offset dowels to adjust it(or drill new dowel holes), and run an indicator mounted on the crank or flywheel around the hole in the bell. an even better option would be to leave the hole small, fab it all up and have a machine shop put the hole in based on the dowel pin locations, they could get the measurements off the block itself(preferred) or a stock bellhousing. the faces should really be flycut too, to ensure they are parallel to each other. when all is said and done, you will be very lucky if after all the welding the alignment ends up anywhere near where you think it will.

[DHD]

While I'm sure that the alignment concerns are well founded, why not wait until he's done and tried it out, you never know, the sky may not be falling after all.....

[30dodgeboy]

I'd recommend attaching a dial indicator to the engine's crankshaft and check the runout of the pilot diameter and trans mounting surface... before, during, and after the welding.

Maybe it is too late, but if I were in your shoes I would have made the trans mounting plate piece of the bellhousing a bit too small and then ground its diameter and face according to what the dial indicator told me.

Too much runout will cause the clutch to chatter as well as problems with the pilot bearing, trans input bearing, and clutch disc. If the runout were really bad, it could break the trans input shaft or tear the hub out of the clutch disc.

If you keep the runout down to acceptable levels (0.005" or less), your bellhousing will work perfectly fine. You can achieve that without going to a machine shop. I don't know if it will contain a clutch explosion, but that Cad engine won't buzz that high anyways. Excellent tech - who needs an adapter plate or kit???

[zibo]

Thanks for the machinist tips!

We do have a fake bridgeport to flycut? front and back, after everythings all welded up.

That tranny hole is so tight that when the tranny is inserted it makes a popping sound.
Its doesn't slide around even without the bolts.

There is a bearing in the crankshaft,
it aligns the input shaft.
Some engines have a bronze bushing which get a little sloppy,
but this one is an actual bearing.

The input shaft alignment is based on the slop of this bearing,
and in the line up "phase" I tried to shim the tranny up near the base plate
using something like a dial indicator to measure,
(basically had a magnetic pointer and feeler gauges)
and it wouldn't budge in there enough to be significantly measurable, esp. not 005.

Another thing I used was the throwout bearing and pressure plate arms to center everything.
Yeah this is relying on the circularness of those old arms,
but what i'd do is rotate the flywheel around and measure each arm (3) at different places.
Yeah the throwout bearing slips on that input shaft cover,
which has a little slop, but its very little,
and my thinking was if it was designed in the system then that was my allowable error.
even then there's no way its close to oo5 inbetween the bearing and the shaft cover.

Nothing was rushed really.

The main concern after all that was really the angles of the block/flywheel/tranny.

So when welding it will go in little inch sections symmetrical to the piece.

Hopefully it'll all work!

Thanks guys...

TP

[56sedandelivery]

UNBELIEVABLE! AMAZING! I'm sure any adjustments with alignment can be done after this piece is completed. That's some cutting/work table there. I'd never tackle anything this complicated; hat's off to you. But, the transmission is the old MUNCIE/overdrive unit, a Saginaw would be a bit stronger and be full syncro and came online around 1966. Nice work! Butch/56sedandelivery.

[RustyBolts]

This is a great post. It's pretty amazing what you can build if you just dive in and start building it. I'm enjoying reading all this.

It seems like some things might get tweaked a hair out of alignment when it's done after doing all the welding (from shrinkage of the welds), but you could probably use a mill or a surface grinder or something to get the front and the back surfaces of the adapter perfectly parallel again, and use a rat tail file to slot the holes if they need adjustment to get the trans and crankshaft centerlines perfectly aligned.

If you need some alignment pins once you're sure everything lines up perfectly, I guess they go in last?

Cool project, man!

[dehudso]

Very nice. I'm looking forward to more updates.

[lanny haas]

Love the can do attitude. this is why my truck sits in the garage, I cant stay off this site...Great work,

[Kirk Hanning]

The drive you have to pull this off is amazing. I agree that alot of this adapter build could be farmed out or made with precision equipment, but isn't that what hot rodding is all about. It's amazing what can be done with hand tools if you put enough effort into it.

[blasted]

zibo your papers are in the mail.

When doing the doctorates degree, one has to write their theory, research and prove their idea, then the bitch. Then they have to defend their idea against a panel of the most learned. If they win their theory and do it with professionalism, they be come a doctor of _____.

Well done Doctor zibo dude.


Nice job of covering your bases with simple tools and gray stuff. Also, nice job of excepting learned challenges. 4.0, lol

[stude_trucks]

This is a cool post. I had Pat at Wilcap make me a custom adaptor for my setup, but I like the raw, sweat and guts fab of this. If I had the time and skills, I would do it your way too. I wouldn't worry too much about the alignment stuff at this point. Sounds like you are considering it enough and am sure it can be tuned later as needed. Good luck with the finishing. I am going to subscribe to this thread and keep an eye out for the finish.

[RustyBolts]

If you're using the input shaft of the transmission to do all the aligning, I was thinking that it might be a good idea to put a dial indicator out near the end of the input shaft and turn the shaft and see if it turns true. It would be a shame to get it all aligned right and then find out that the input shaft of that transmission got bent somehow by someone dropping it off a forklift or something.

[toddc]

You don't need a mill to get the bell housing square and true. The way you have set it up so far will provide a really good start to aligning it ( the hard way );)
If you setup a dial indicator to turn with the input shaft, and measure against the flywheel face ( at the largest diameter you can swing ) you will be able to check for parallel as you turn the shaft. Just use a grinder to remove the excess metal from the gearbox mounting face, a feeler gauge will give you a good idea of how much. Do this before you check for centre position. The centre position will change when you adjust parallel.
If you then setup a dial indicator on the end of the crankshaft to measure against the input shaft or the slide for the throwout bearing as you turn the crank, you can measure the offset and correct it by filing holes or offset dowels.

Its slow and fiddly, but it works as well as any other method.

[ray]

While I'm sure that the alignment concerns are well founded, why not wait until he's done and tried it out, you never know, the sky may not be falling after all.....

well, mr. self appointed hamb post police, because i'm not trying to put down the great effort zibo has so far put into this, i'm trying to ensure it gets done to completion, it's called constructive criticism. i'm a machinist and i'll feel free to offer advice to farbricators who attempt jobs that should be done by a machinist when i feel like it. just as i welcome advice from welders when i try to glue parts together. after it is done is too late for help in either case.

Thanks for the machinist tips!

We do have a fake bridgeport to flycut? front and back, after everythings all welded up.

That tranny hole is so tight that when the tranny is inserted it makes a popping sound.
Its doesn't slide around even without the bolts.

There is a bearing in the crankshaft,
it aligns the input shaft.
Some engines have a bronze bushing which get a little sloppy,
but this one is an actual bearing.

The input shaft alignment is based on the slop of this bearing,
and in the line up "phase" I tried to shim the tranny up near the base plate
using something like a dial indicator to measure,
(basically had a magnetic pointer and feeler gauges)
and it wouldn't budge in there enough to be significantly measurable, esp. not 005.

Another thing I used was the throwout bearing and pressure plate arms to center everything.
Yeah this is relying on the circularness of those old arms,
but what i'd do is rotate the flywheel around and measure each arm (3) at different places.
Yeah the throwout bearing slips on that input shaft cover,
which has a little slop, but its very little,
and my thinking was if it was designed in the system then that was my allowable error.
even then there's no way its close to oo5 inbetween the bearing and the shaft cover.

Nothing was rushed really.

The main concern after all that was really the angles of the block/flywheel/tranny.

So when welding it will go in little inch sections symmetrical to the piece.

Hopefully it'll all work!

Thanks guys...

TP


you HAVE a mill available? why not use it to make the holes? i understand the hard way when you have no access to better tools, but you have the better tool already. or do you feel it's too worn to to be accurate?

good luck, and i hope it works for you! i'll be watching.

You don't need a mill to get the bell housing square and true. The way you have set it up so far will provide a really good start to aligning it ( the hard way );)
If you setup a dial indicator to turn with the input shaft, and measure against the flywheel face ( at the largest diameter you can swing ) you will be able to check for parallel as you turn the shaft. Just use a grinder to remove the excess metal from the gearbox mounting face, a feeler gauge will give you a good idea of how much. Do this before you check for centre position. The centre position will change when you adjust parallel.
If you then setup a dial indicator on the end of the crankshaft to measure against the input shaft or the slide for the throwout bearing as you turn the crank, you can measure the offset and correct it by filing holes or offset dowels.

Its slow and fiddly, but it works as well as any other method.

right, but hard to do with a bellhousing covering the flywheel and input shaft, etc. i suppose zibo could cut access holes in the bell to see into it. which all things considered, wouldn't be a half bad idea. the issue is not so much being able to achieve the required accuracy using "caveman" methods, it's actually being able to measure it to make adjustments. it would be possible to set up an inidcator up to read off the crank flange without the flywheel installed. it wouldn't be as accurate, but better than nothing. it'd take a bit of work though with mirrors to be able to read the indicator inside the bellhousing, so some holes would still be helpful.

[Pir8Darryl]

You mean we got to wait untill the 15th to get the final installemnt?? Damn! :mad:

I wish I still had the piss-n-vinegar to do stuff like this. Personally I would have fab'ed it as a motor plate to eliminate the sag issues. Also, I'd be putting a hydraulid TO into it... But that's just me, and it may not fit the needs of your project.

Whatever alignment issues you *might* have can be solved on a milling machine after it's completed.

Looks great!

[Customline Vicky]

While I'm sure that the alignment concerns are well founded, why not wait until he's done and tried it out, you never know, the sky may not be falling after all.....

Exactly ! What a pessimist! This is amazing!

[tommy]

Great work. I love the caveman approach.

I had to dial indicate the bell housing on my Studebaker. It's not difficult.




http://fototime.com/%7B1D946861-69B2-471F-86B8-38086E0E0D39%7D/picture.JPG

http://fototime.com/%7BA9538A70-0775-4F08-B61B-152F989363A0%7D/picture.JPG

Once you get the hole aligned with the crank center line then you drill a hole in the flange and block for alignment pins. I drilled the hole slightly smaller than the pin and used a precision reamer to size it. After the pins are installed you can remove and replace the bell housing without having to realign it every time.

I had trouble with clutch chatter when I bought the truck. The Stude guys said that not having the bell housing aligned properly could cause this. It doesn't chatter any more with the new bell housing using the same clutch.

Keep up the good work.

[Mart]

Good pics, Tommy.
Zibo - great work, can't wait until the 15th.
Mart.

[Brad54]

You mean we got to wait untill the 15th to get the final installemnt?? Damn! :mad:


yeah, no kidding! :D

this is one of the best DIY tech posts I've seen on the HAMB. Hardly cave-man at all.

Someone else stated this is a job that should be done by a machinist. I disagree. Not everything needs to be taken out to the third decimal point.

When I worked for a Mopar magazine, the editor at one of the competing magazines was known for harping about dialing in the bellhousing, and ran a tech article on it seemingly twice a year. When you hear that enough, you start to think "well damn, I can't just stab the input shaft in the hole! I've got to get a set of dial indicators, a magnetic base, machined shims and washers, and I have to blueprint this sucker!"

Except for this one fact: they weren't blueprinting the bellhousing on LS6 Chevelles and Hemi 'Cudas as they went down the assembly line. They stabbed the trans through the hole on the bellhousing and ran the four bolts up snug. And those transmissions survived just fine in the hands of average enthusiasts beating on their cars at the stop-lights on Friday and Saturday night, and every now and again at the drag strip. They don't break out the gauges in the service bays at the local dealership either.

Now obviously you need to be fairly close, but you don't need it dead-nuts on unless you're racing. From the way it looks to me, I'd say you're doing a pretty damn good job, and once you're done, if it needs ANYTHING at all, a little can be shaved off the mounting face to make it all perfectly square...but I don't think you're going to need it. Hell, take it to an engine shop and have them put it in the decking machine. All you need is for it to be square on the block and square on the trans face.

If it were me, I'd go with a bronze bushing rather than the roller. I think the bronze will be a tad more forgiving if there is very slight misalignment. I've had two bad experiences with roller pilot bearings, so I'm biased.

Nice job, and I'll be watching this one! It's giving me some GREAT ideas for making a safer bellhousing for behind the 322 Nailhead if I build a PanAm car. Wouldn't pass NHRA tech, but it'd keep shrapnel contained a helluva lot better than the stock cast piece or an aluminum adapter.

-Brad

[zibo]

Thanks alot for all the great replies guys,
they ALL really help keep up the momentum.
I wish I had time to reply to all individually,
but just know that all comments/suggestions/replies/etc. are greatly appreciated!

(however)
Tommy that is a great picture of the dial indicator measurement rig.
When its all together and double welded,
That will help set the dowel position,
probably will use a sturdy bendable pointer though instead to keep the caveman theme;)
Thanks!

Ray-we've got a tight mill but don't have one of those rotating tables!
My brother is the machine-tool junkie.
I'm happy with a grinder! (and some dave clark ear protectors)

And Brad i'm with ya on the bronze bushing vs roller bearing.
The flathead/OD tranny in my RPU has a bronze bushing,
and since there's so much sag in the stock stamped steel bellhousing,
there's no way a bearing would last.
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j71/perichbrothers/rusty/wobbly3408.jpg
And as to stock bellhousings not being perfect,
this is the one that was in the RPU that I replaced!
There is seriously a 3/16" bow in it,
thats what the angle and bar thickness underneath!
Yeah bolting it up straightens it out but still.

Another thing...

I had planned on needing the bellhousing to double as the rear engine/tranny mount.
(I thought it was a saginaw but guess its an early muncie?)
The OD unit DID NOT have a rear tranny mount.
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j71/perichbrothers/rusty/RICH3443.jpg
After studying the frame area, it would be difficult to have bellhousing mounts,
AND room for a sidemounted clutch arm, easily anyway.
So the idea was to make a vertical plate to attach the rear of the tranny.

Well I pulled another one down to make a template,
and lo and behold whats there...
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j71/perichbrothers/rusty/RICK3445.jpg
A tranny mount!

I'm gathering the RICH version is for the 6 cylinders, (embossed in back)
and the RICK version is for v8s.

http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/puzzler3389.jpg
And here's the " do it yourself caveman bellhousing kit" templates!

I'll update progress shots soon...

Thanks alot guys!

TP

[Brad54]

Man, that bell is f'ing cool. Congrats again.

I was at a tech school that has a great motorsports program, and one of the tricks NASCAR teams do for bellhousing dowel alignment is to bore out the holes in the bell that slip over the dowels in the block, so they're way oversized. They they square everything up side-to-side/top-to-bottom with a dial indicator, lay a couple of washers over the dowels, on top of the bellhousing flange, and weld them to the flange. This positively and permanently locates the bellhousings on four of the six planes (side/side, up/down). The trans can sag or be raised too, which is another plane--that dimension is corrected with shims between the bellhousing and the block. I don't know how they figure that one.
With the method I just described, the bellhousing is permanently matched to the engine block, until you cut the washers off.
It's quick, and a lot easier than the offset dowels you can buy. And a whole lot cheaper, too.

-Brad

[plym49]

Man, that bell is f'ing cool. Congrats again.

I was at a tech school that has a great motorsports program, and one of the tricks NASCAR teams do for bellhousing dowel alignment is to bore out the holes in the bell that slip over the dowels in the block, so they're way oversized. They they square everything up side-to-side/top-to-bottom with a dial indicator, lay a couple of washers over the dowels, on top of the bellhousing flange, and weld them to the flange. This positively and permanently locates the bellhousings on four of the six planes (side/side, up/down). The trans can sag or be raised too, which is another plane--that dimension is corrected with shims between the bellhousing and the block. I don't know how they figure that one.
With the method I just described, the bellhousing is permanently matched to the engine block, until you cut the washers off.
It's quick, and a lot easier than the offset dowels you can buy. And a whole lot cheaper, too.

-Brad

I love simple and elegant tricks like that.

[2manybillz]

I think the washer trick has been around since the first lakewood scattershield was installed - thats how we always did them.

[alchemy]

And as to stock bellhousings not being perfect,
this is the one that was in the RPU that I replaced!
There is seriously a 3/16" bow in it,
thats what the angle and bar thickness underneath!
Yeah bolting it up straightens it out but still.


Please note: A certain model of late Ford flathead bellhousings have a slant on the bottom half of the front mounting face. If you look at the corresponding bottom cover/starter plate, you can obviously see the angle there. DON'T go bending the flange straight, you may have a part that's supposed to be crooked.

[zibo]

yeah on that stock ford one the flywheel is goes outside of the bottom of the bellhousing,
like the sag was engineered into the design.
This type really wears out the bushing quick.
TP

[zibo]

We nicknamed it the turtle...
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/turtle3309.jpg
lotsa time between the welds, little 2" runs.
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/turtle3315.jpg

This 1/4" plate welds so nice.
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/turtle3390.jpg
The bigger gaps have a couple passes...

TP

[Flipper]

I hope this thing shows in the finished car.

[ray]

Ray-we've got a tight mill but don't have one of those rotating tables!
My brother is the machine-tool junkie.
I'm happy with a grinder! (and some dave clark ear protectors)

TP

a rotary table is not necessary, use a boring head, heck for a hole that size you could use a regular flycutter and careful adjustment to get the disired diameter.

[ray]

yeah, no kidding! :D

this is one of the best DIY tech posts I've seen on the HAMB. Hardly cave-man at all.

Someone else stated this is a job that should be done by a machinist. I disagree. Not everything needs to be taken out to the third decimal point.

When I worked for a Mopar magazine, the editor at one of the competing magazines was known for harping about dialing in the bellhousing, and ran a tech article on it seemingly twice a year. When you hear that enough, you start to think "well damn, I can't just stab the input shaft in the hole! I've got to get a set of dial indicators, a magnetic base, machined shims and washers, and I have to blueprint this sucker!"

Except for this one fact: they weren't blueprinting the bellhousing on LS6 Chevelles and Hemi 'Cudas as they went down the assembly line. They stabbed the trans through the hole on the bellhousing and ran the four bolts up snug. And those transmissions survived just fine in the hands of average enthusiasts beating on their cars at the stop-lights on Friday and Saturday night, and every now and again at the drag strip. They don't break out the gauges in the service bays at the local dealership either.

.

-Brad


the factory wasn't dealing with blocks that had been line bored, along with bellhousings made by some aftermarket company either. their parts were held to close tolerances in the first place. after years of abuse, it is good cheap insurance to check it while assembling it, rather than getting it all buttoned up and on the road to find you have a problem. the best engine builders don't get to be the best by saying "well it was good enough for the factory!"

[Babyearl]

This is a great tech feature,, I say Zibo is the man. It brings back memories of a friends 39 chev coupe with a 348 mated to a 37 lasalle trans with spacers made of pipe, flat washers and square nuts. now that was caveman. Oh yes,, there was a piece of radiator hose that kept the release bearing from slipping to far back.

[zibo]

I'm working on the clutch-arm guys,
its kinda tricky and works been a little hectic,
so although a hydraulic one can be thrown in there with just a couple line holes.
I think thats kinda cheating!

http://www.mcleodind.com/application_guide_pgs/HYDTOB_BoltOn.html

http://www.mcleodind.com/images/App_Guide_images/HydTOB_BoltOn.jpg

i'm gonna make it a hard-linkage.

Hopefully get some time this weekend...
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j71/perichbrothers/rusty/ugly3449.jpg

I did need to get the engine/tranny actually mounted though.
So at least now I know exactly the space the arm/linkage will have.

(actually I had screwed up and the front x-member arms were too long!
I had to shorten them 4+ inches to clear the starter bubble...doh!)

TP

[55chieftain]

" It's so easy even a caveman could do it" . Great tech. I hope it all works out for you. Will all the differant planes and angles welded together , would the bellhousing need to be stress relieved by heating it up and letting cool down ? Anyone?

Some of this tech will help me get my saginaw on my flat 6 Pontiac. At least I have a bell housing to work with, I just need to adapt the trans. It looks something like your initial plate would be a good starting point.

[Unkl Ian]

Caveman Equipped (tm)

Nice work.

[Unkl Ian]

...would the bellhousing need to be stress relieved by


I wouldn't bother.

[nailheadroadster]

Amazing zibo! Great work and thank you for sharing in such a detailed manner.

[d2_willys]

Not bad. Just wondering if you could've found one already done for all the work you put into it. I know when I do a swap I try and research all stock(and available) bells, adapters, before DYI starts.

[zibo]

Thanks guys again!

Not bad. Just wondering if you could've found one already done for all the work you put into it. I know when I do a swap I try and research all stock(and available) bells, adapters, before DYI starts.

This is basically 2+ years of subconscious planning!
Definitely researched the heck out of it,
thats why figured I could do as bad a job as some of the ones some guys have bought!

TP

[55 dude]

fantastic article dude! take a bow. worked with a super sharp mechanic that built a man-lift and built a bellhousing to use a gm 4 cyl in it. the pic's are impressive but after seeing one in person built the method your using is amazing! one thing to remember most of the early engines were low rpm units so that helps keep vibrations to a minimum. the hyd. throwout bearing ain't cheating just smart!

[Hot Rod Michelle]

Even after seeing it in person, its hard to believe. Cool Frankenstein bell housing though.

[Bob the Ferret]

ZIBO - After this audacious project , I think your next Tech article should be building an engine from scratch !!!! I mean , how hard can it be ?

[ago]

Really GREAT job, gives everyone incentive to create. Do the caddy front mounts go on the V or front by the timing cover?



Ago

[sodbuster]

Ruler......

[Edian]

buetiful, i've always thought about doing this, but im glad to see someone actaully has the balls to do it, and post it too, hope it works out alright

[zibo]

moved to next page...

[fiftyv8]

I said it before and I will say it again nice work and you are sure not scared of a challenge. Typical Cadillac flathead owner.
Well done buddy.

[zibo]

Hi guys thanks for reminding me I need to finish this by the 15th!

So I had to install the whole chelada to see where the arm should go,
Fortunately used the rear tranny mounts (see previous pages),
which cleared up the bellhousing...
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/turtle3742.jpg
found a perfect spot for the hole.

Then had to take it all apart,
a real bummer cause the fenders etc made it look like a car.
but was able to weld INSIDE the bellhousing finally...
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/tutle3746.jpg
I figured doing symmetrical passes would minimize warping,
(like they would counteract each other)
This took a while to do,
cause i took a couple breaks so it wouldn't tweak from the heat.
Its pretty strong now!

And just to make sure,
figured i'd throw it on this mill I never use...
I'm glad its a big one cause it hit the base right at the end of the last pass!
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/turtle3751.jpg
Not sure if this was the right cutter but its the only one I had.
Now the surprising part is it was about .015 " off!
It looks like alot in the picture but the bit was chipped and it would leave a burr.

Needless to say if this mill wasn't immediately available,
I wouldn't have surfaced it.

Yeah I'm sure you guys noticed I jonesed out and grinded and painted it
(the flash makes it look turquioise but its really "detroit diesel" almost like the caddy)
I always liked the prepainted-then machined look,
plus its easier to see where the surfacing starts...

I had machined the 2 side "reveals" but one side had blended in during the surfacing,
so of course I had to redo it...
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/turtle3754.jpg
and also cut out the hole.

Now the fun part is figuring the clutch/throwout arm...6 days...(actually nights!)

chow...

TP
(reposted this so you don't have to go to the previous page)

[Kevin Lee]

Looks so great. Dig the color.

BTW, you need a fly cutter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0g1bAb-POA&NR=1). Easy thing for you to make. (and yeah, I would have just used the end mill too if it was what I had on hand at the time)

Again, great post.

[thechopperguy]

Very impressive job!

[Mart]

Zibo = ruler.

[zibo]

Kevin, that fly-cutter looks dangerous, but exactly what I needed...

Ok,
been real busy at work but had to squeeze this in by the 15th,
so workin the night hours on it (and a little day today!)
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/0113092218.jpg
made a couple clutch-arm templates, and found one that worked, so cut it out...


welded it up...
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/0114090008.jpg

not pretty but strong...
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/0114090006.jpg
looked like it'll work...
now the pivot.

TP

[zibo]

ok,
ya know what,
first I need to show you all this grinding table I had to make.
There was so much grinding,
and the other side of the shop had an aluminum project in it,
so didn't want to contaminate it, so whipped this out really quick, out of scrap...
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/table3780.jpg
there is a "chispa-deflector"so most of it bounces down into here...
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/table3782.jpg
don't have a vaccuum hole in it, and i've dropped some things like a drill bit in it,
but its a work in progress!
And man it really helps keep the area cleaner.

++++++++++++++++++++

Ok so where were we,

here's the pivot...
a stainless steel piece of flat-bar, welded with 309 rod.
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/T-pivot3773.jpg

and here's the finished arm, with the pivot stopper and lock...
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/T-arm3772.jpg

this is it installed. it doesn't fall off when upside down, which is good.
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/T-arm3767.jpg

there is alot of travel. Real smooth too.
Figured the smartest way was to take the input-shaft-snout off and place it in the hole,
alot easier to work with flat on the table, than vertical on the engine.
http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/T-arm3768.jpg
Will still need to drill some holes in the linkage end, but want to wait til its installed.
Also need to drill'n'tap the starter holes,
but supposedly there is a smaller starter that might work, so will wait just in case.

http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg371/whabamp/caveman/T-done3775.jpg
So there you have it!

TP

[Pir8Darryl]

Too cool Zibo!
I hope this one takes the prize!

[Brad54]

Could you have the pivot and arm heat-treated to make them stronger? I'd be a little worried about the pivot wearing over time.

(okay, probably A LOT of time, but still. The pivot ball in my '62 Suburban was worn down to a little cone. That had 40 years and untold miles on it, but the pivot is a wear point, regardless of type.)

Great looking work. It's amazing what you can do when nobody tells you "You can't do that."

-Brad

[zibo]

Could you have the pivot and arm heat-treated to make them stronger? I'd be a little worried about the pivot wearing over time.

(okay, probably A LOT of time, but still. The pivot ball in my '62 Suburban was worn down to a little cone. That had 40 years and untold miles on it, but the pivot is a wear point, regardless of type.)

Great looking work. It's amazing what you can do when nobody tells you "You can't do that."

-Brad

Hey Brad,
I was thinking the same thing,
so the 2 pegs the throwout bearing rests on are stainless,
the pivot "bar" is stainless,
and the pivot "cup" on the arm is stainless,
all welded with 309 tig rod which can mix mild steel with stainless steel.
Its not heat treated but it should wear less than mild steel.

TP

pir8darryl-it would be cool!

[Drewfus]

dream it, build it....inspiring.

Keep cranking dude, kicking ass (although not a fan of that green paint...do you guys have 'hammer-metal' paint over there?:rolleyes::D)

Cheers,

Drewfus:)

[Vergil]

Super great job zibo, my hat off to you and thanks for sharing.

Vergil

[60srailjob]

GREAT post thanks for sharing ........I am filed it to my email

[Schwartz Inc.]

Wow great work zibo !! I also must aplaude your tenacity most people would have never even atempted this project !!

[zibo]

dream it, build it....inspiring.

Keep cranking dude, kicking ass (although not a fan of that green paint...do you guys have 'hammer-metal' paint over there?:rolleyes::D)

Cheers,

Drewfus:)

Thanks guys!
It's really wasn't difficult, just time consuming...

Drewfus, the engine is a similar green already,
and I had that paint stashed away..I'm a spray-can junkie!
The camera makes it look turquoise its not as bad as the pix...
TP

[careyohio]

This is the kind of stuff I love !!!!!!
Great job !!!!!!

[Rex Schimmer]

Hell of a deal, you take a guy with some good common sense, some good fab capabilities and an idea and turn him loose! What do you get a truely great looking and functioning part!! Great JOB!!!!!

Rex

[InjectorTim]

Two thumbs up!

[gas pumper]

Alpine Green. I used to buy it by the quart in Centari. Gives it an industrial look.

Great job. wait. Fantastic job.
.015 across the face woulda been OK. Even better now that it's fixed.

Frank

[qzjrd5]

Awesome tech! Great job!!!

[hoop]

wow , I am amazed. Great work!

[1950ChevySuburban]

Completely amazing work! Why the clutch arm though, instead of adapting a GM one to fit? Just wondering...........


Got my Tech week vote!

[D-Russ]

Wow, I'm blown away.

[zibo]

Completely amazing work! Why the clutch arm though, instead of adapting a GM one to fit? Just wondering...........


Got my Tech week vote!

First thanks for the vote(s)!

Second, cause i didn't have a GM one!
I had the original caddy one but I misplaced it,
but it also didn't fit the muncie/saginaw throwout bearing anyway.

http://www.jerrybickel.com/bellhousing-and-clutch-components/images/jbrc5057b-JBRC5058B-B1.jpg
This is a version available online that I thought to copy,
uses a heim joint in that pivot slot.
I like the leverage adjustability, but too hi-tech for this caveman!

TP

[kustombuilder]

impressive. very impressive!

[flynbrian48]

WOW!!! Great example of what can be done with simple tools and imagination. Very ispirational for me to make my work better.

Brian

[ST. 515]

Great fab work!!!

-Saint

[sodbuster]

You had my vote.........and you are doing the building yourself......and fabbing everything with minimal tools......Cool......and I sorta' listen to your "music" while traveling on Sirius radio.

Chris