"Go Fast"? or "Go Trad"? Need help!

[wingnutz]

I've been changing my mind over the past couple of months on the direction I want to take with my 31 roadster.

I love racing what I build..., and I live in a world of Numbers. E.T.s, sixty footers, corrected altitude, etc....etc...etc... I built a go fast full fender 31 that ran 355 SBC, with a best time of 10.92 @ 123 mph. Plus mid 8 sec Chev II BBC w/Lenco 158 mph!

However, go fast cars start requiring serious coin in the drivetrain area..., not to mention "caging the car" and chassis modifications..., More than I can afford at this particular moment in my life.

So I thought that I would find a period auto and do the "Caddy Hack" thing..., Take gear matched drivetrain and put it into a light weight roadster.

So I bought a Buick with a 401 4-barrel automatic for $400 came with aluminum drums as well. Man I was happy for the score, except for several things...!

I didn't know the condition of the motor (beyond the compression check), trans, and brakes since it hadn't run for several years. The car sat on top of damp hay and became a "Flinstone" mobile and a "Rodent" condo..., so virtually the rest of the cars "cool" parts and pieces were rough at best. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Long story "short"..., Got it running..., Water leaking from the block on the outside and on the inside into the oil..., http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Then I saw a post on "Oldsmobiles" and started asking Questions..., the more Questions I got answered the more Questions I have.

It seems to me that the older cars with the good engines had shitty tranny's or vice versa and a "boat load" of questionable adaptability, reliability and performance issues. And to make them work increases the cost as well as make it difficult to replace broken or worn out parts.

Bleed told me to just dump a BBC in it and be done with it! However I like the traditional look and didn't want to destroy a beautiful stock deuce frame with super structures to handle the HP and torq. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Guess I'd like to find a complete strong running traditional donor car that could get me into the 12's without taking me to the cleaners! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Need Help!

Mark

[AHotRod]

Mark,
I have the answer to your delemia.
As you know, the "A-bone" will come in around 2000#'s going down the street. So dress up a small block Chevy like the one in this photo to look like an old OLDS, stick a left over 'glide behind it and Rock-On!
The car will run 11's easy with a decent engine.
You can have your E.T.'s and Nosalgia all in one!
Glenn

[4t64rd]

Mocket 88!

uh oh, here come the trad police... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Unkl Ian]

[ QUOTE ]
Guess I'd like to find a complete strong running traditional donor car that could get me into the 12's without taking me to the cleaners

[/ QUOTE ] How quick was Sam's Roach Rod ? I remember the times were very respectable,and the price was right. Run a hood and a SBC,tell the Traditional Police what they want to hear,and everyone is happy.

[38Chevy454]

I was the one that asked about the older car for a donor. I agree that at least for most part, the good engines for traditional (meaning 50's/early 60's type) all came with shit trannies.

As for your question, the best advice I can say is to go big on the engine size, as that way you start out with more hp and torque. I am going to get that 60 Olds with the 394 for my modified. It is all about hp to weight, and your roadster can have good performance with a relatively stock engine if it is a big block or at least big cubic inch. Have traditional style with older big engine with good peformance.

If you want cheap, look into late 60's/early 70's big boat sedans. A Cad 472/500 or B-O-P 455 would still be great performance and have the good turbo 350 or 400 for an auto trans options. A Ford 460 or Mopar 440 are good ideas as well. Don't mess with the smaller versions, if you are going for big, get the biggest.

If you want older engine, a Ford FE (390/428) can be dressed up to look 50's and still have modern style trans. Same with the Pontiac if you go early 60's. A nailhead from 64 up will have the good turbo 400 trans with it. My soon to be 394 is limited to using the jetaway trans which will be a limiting factor.

I agree the decisions are not real clear and easy, seems there is always some compromise or limit to deal with.

[Unkl Ian]

[ QUOTE ]
the good engines ... all came with shit trannies.



[/ QUOTE ]Also not cheap,but here is another option: Transmission adapters (http://transmissionadapters.com/)

[C9]

May I suggest a 1970 or so 455 Buick?
510# torque, stock, with the 10/1 CR version engine.

About 15# heavier than a small block Chevy when the heavy cast iron intake and exhaust manifolds are removed.

Front distributor which makes life easy for swaps.
Rear oil pan sump.
External oil pump.
Many other little features which make it a viable deal for a lightweight roadster.

These engines in a Camaro sized Buick when mildly built run in the 10's.

Here's a mild one in a 32.
About 400 HP as it sits.
Maybe 540# torque.

[C9]

#2 - 455 Buick in 31 roadster on 32 rails.
This one should come in at about 460 HP and 560# torque.
Should be an interesting comparo with the 32 weighing 2400# and the 31 about 2100# or so.

These engines come with GMs more than sturdy T-400 trans so no problems there.

As far as Trad goes ... nothing more Trad than a pair of taillights disappearing rapidly into the dark....

[bobbleed]

I also told you to put a Pontiac in it. Jack has a running 60 389.

I think those 60's pontiac motors are cool, and cheap compared to the others as far as tranny's etc.......

[porknbeaner]

There were an awful lot of Trad rods running 283s and 327s.
Just depends on what trad you wanna be.

you can build a 355 pretty cheap, snag some old script rockers, a amlory dual point (used)and an obsolete intake and call it a 283. No one is gonna come up with the teardown cash at a cruise.

or if ya gotta, snag a 307 block, a large journal 283 crank, and bingo instant 283. Bore it .125 and its a 302. Your still in cheap. A set of 305 heads won't cost you much and that way you can have hard seats.

Script rockers came two way, instant bolt on for a late model head, or staggered bolts. The staggered bolts look more 50s and an adapter is nuthin to make.

if it don't make ay dirty it aint yours http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[plan9]

[ QUOTE ]
#2 - 455 Buick in 31 roadster on 32 rails.
This one should come in at about 460 HP and 560# torque.
Should be an interesting comparo with the 32 weighing 2400# and the 31 about 2100# or so.

These engines come with GMs more than sturdy T-400 trans so no problems there.

As far as Trad goes ... nothing more Trad than a pair of taillights disappearing rapidly into the dark....

[/ QUOTE ]

whats the rpm range of a 455 with this type of power output?

im going to run a cad 500 in my 35 p/u, aftermarket parts can get pricey... weakest link in these motors from what i have read and seen, is the valve train and rotating assembly. as a result, your powerband is 1500-5500rpm tops until you start dumping several hundred dollars into custom pieces. however, the hp/torque output is pretty respectable if you wanted to stay within the rpm range stated above... as an example a friend of mine ran a 500 in his 69 chevelle, (nothing stripped from it) - mods to the engine were cam, intake, ignition, 10:1 compression, modified rochester 4bl, and exhaust... 2500 stall, 3:73 posi rear...ran a best 12.85 on cheater slicks, and could use less gearing. not bad.. only problem is he would break valve train components regularly as he was using stock pieces with the intent to redline @ 5500rpm on an almost daily basis (punching it around town etc)... as far as old school dressup components go for these late model engines... they are non-existant.. im going to see if i cant find a way to make my own with stock valve covers.

unkl - if i remember correctly sams altered ran mid 10's... extremely respectable http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[nummnut]

i can get you an olds BUT you need to come and do moor shit work on the new car

[C9]

[ QUOTE ]
whats the rpm range of a 455 with this type of power output?


[/ QUOTE ]

The Crower cam in the 32 has a recommended redline of 5000 rpm.
The cam company may be looking at the notoriously weak Buick rocker shafts and rocker arms when they made that recommendation.
I don't run the engine much over 4000 and with such a light car running 3.70 gears, spinning the engine up is not required.
The engine does have KB roller rockers, keepers, retainers and springs.
Pushrods are Crowers.
Lifters are PAW Super Stockers which look to be the same as the Crower lifters that go to the other cam I used to run.
From what I understand there are only three lifter mfg. companies in the US and the PAW lifters have all the same casting details etc. as the Crower lifters.
Measurements are the same as well.
Timing chain is a PAW double roller.
And I have run the link-belt chain with the big cam with no problems.
Valve spring pressures are on the low end of the scale for the springs used so perhaps that helped with the timing chains longevity.

I run a high volume oil pump as well.
The pump components available at any real parts house and come with longer gears, plate etc.
All the pieces needed to build your own pump.

About 39,000 miles on the 32's engine with no problems.

The 31's Buick engine will run very much the same valve train with the exception of the roller rockers.
Those may be BB Chevy's adapted to the Buick once I get to the engine building point for this car.
The cam in the 31 is redlined at 6000 rpm.
This engine will run a little more compression than the 32's engine which is 9/1 and runs fine on 87 octane.
The 31 should come in at 10/1 to 10.5/1 CR.

The 31's engine compares very favorably to the 2nd 455 Olds engine in little brothers drag racing Henry J which ran high 10's at 2500#.

[flamedabone]

Here is a shot of the Poncho in my A. Mild short block with a REAL good set of heads. Hauls fucking balls and did a 2500 mile round trip to the HAMB Drags with out even a hiccup.

Pontiacs rule. -Abone.

[PBRmeASAP]

Mark ditch the nailhead, everyone runs them, o'yah, just leave it in your yard tonight...i'm sure i can find it... my truck will need one someday

[av8]

Well, here I go again . . .

What's not hot-rod traditional about the smallblock Chevy? This beautiful piece of Ed Cole engine architecture shook the entire industry to its foundation right from the start. It was an astonishing design that simplified the complexities of the vale train in an OHV engine. The expensive, uncertain, and often frail forged/cast rocker arms working on ground shafts, were replaced with a tough steel stamping working on its own distinct pivot that, in spite of the scorn heaped upon it then (and even now by some who still don't get it), worked as good or better than the more conventional designs.

Instantly, the new Chevy motor relegated the earlier "performance" efforts of GM's more-prestigious divisions -- Cadillac, Buick, and Oldsmobile -- to a less-exciting role than that of Chevrolet's totally new performance package.

Ford took it in the shorts big time, heading down a difficult path of mechanical problems with wrong-headed design and without the hope of performance breakthroughs.

I have no quarrel with all the folks who've come ot loathe the SBC for its ubiquitiy (it is everywhere, isn't it?!) But don't hope to amass important points for excluding Ed Cole's motor from the annals of true hot rodding.

The point of this is learn what was and is real. Pay attention to what hot rodders were running back in the day . . . and never have to apologize for running a kick-ass smallblock Chevy -- just learn how to build one and you'll be a righteous hot rodder.

[DrJ]

What AV8 said...

If you are building a "street rod" or show car that looks like a race car from some time period, then for sure, use all the period parts.
If it's time period is after September 1954, then a SBC is fair game for power.
If you are actually gong racing, you MUST use all the latest technology allowed by the sanctioning body where you will be racing or you will LOSE.
The only thing that count's in racing is ending up in first place!
So get a rule book for NHRA or AHRA or Goodguys or whoever is teching the classes at your strip.

[Crease]

The traditional vs. HP thingy by Crease

Build a high horse power car....some one will build a higher horsepower car....in 10 years the car will be out dated.

Build a traditional car.....in 10 years it's not out dated, just more traditional. Read some great view points on the post. Those 60 Pontiac motors scream.

Crease
Barons So Tex

[mytlo56]

How about a baby Hemi:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=34202&item=2438205 821

I really, really appreciate where you're coming from on this one. I'm currently into kustoms but am always dreaming of a rod that'll go low 12's.

My dream involves a channeled T roadster or severly chopped tall T w/ a baby Hemi, a stout tranny & posi driveline, and good traction. 12's for sure...maybe even 11's.

I don't see anything wrong w/ building the Buford. It doesn't seem that it'll take much more than a good cam, carb & intake, and 9.5 to 1 compression to get er' crankin. All the speed stuff would be easily swapmeeted.

If you're worried about the trad stuff don't do the damn car up all late 40's style w/ wire wheels & run the Buford though. Color tinted primer, radirs or Americans, wide white cheater slicks, and chrome in strange places would suit that combo. much better and be considered "correct" by the trad police.

Good luck

PS- I don't see a damn thing wrong w/ running a hot 327 in it either. They're great freakin' motors!

[Paul]

392 and torqueflite.

trad-n-fast

Paul

[Blownolds]

C9, I distinctly remember Louis' black Henry J running 9.40's at Palmdale with that Algon-injected 495 CID big block Olds. But that wasn't a budget motor, either. I was the guy that bought his entire top end including the injection and heads after he busted up the bottom.

Still, if a late 455-type Olds is in the choosing for this '31, I would suggest a 425 Olds over the 455. But it R's much quicker and easier, and you want to pay attention to the oiling and valvetrain.

For Olds engine tech, hop on over to realoldspower.com ask around and hope you get replies from any of the several very knowledgeable Olds engine builders on the site and not the inexperienced. Try to verify the info.

[Blownolds]

And oh, yeah--- the early dual-range hydro is NOT a junk tranny, but there are things a person should know about them. No problem bolting them to an early Olds rocket if you are using the Olds bellhousing adapter, just that attention needs to be paid to internal/external balance, flywheel teeth count vs. what starter, and also make sure there is a pilot provision.

Other downsides would be that they are heavy, shifters are tough to come by, and you will have a tough time getting more than 3500 stall out of a hydro torus-- and that with a modified one and big motor. Still, these are probably the most traditional of all "go-fast" trannies and were what were used in gasser racing all through the '60's. My project is getting one.

[atch]

wing,

going back to your original querry, it seems to me that what fits best into your plan would be the 500 inch cadilac or a 455 buick.

one of the most traditional looking 32 ford roadsters i've ever seen belongs to an acquaintence of mine. fenderless highboy with full hood. would compare favorably with any of the famous cars (neikamp, mcmullens, mack, edlebrock, etc.) on looks, fit, & finish, and apears to be the same age. at least until he lifts that hood. 500 inches of cadilac torque that just won't quit. (sorry; didn't mean to rave about dave's roadster, but damn it's a nice car)

and c9 said pretty much all that needs to be said for buicks.

both excellent choices, imho. great torque. very dependable. not terribly expensive. very good transmissions as oem equipment. and after you've stripped everyting you want out of the donor car, you can take all those power window regulators & the tilt column to the next swap meet and recover some of your $.

a little newer than you were talking about later, but do you really care that much what year the engine was manufactured in? (at least in this application)

[caddychris]

Atch is right, kinda. The 472-500-425 engine kicks ass! It is smaller and lighter than a BBC. and puts out more HP and torque. But the only Big cad to run is the 472 a pre 70 block has the right heads and compression 10.5:1 to get you on your way to 600 HP plus on street gas. Check out www.cad500parts.com (http://www.cad500parts.com) for more info. The only good stock 500 is the 70 Eldo, and unless your 31 is going to be FWD, you'll end up having to buy a tranny too. A 67-69 DeVille can be purchased pretty cheap, and rebuild kits for the engine runs about 750-900 bucks. Personally though, I'd run a 331-365-390 with a hydromatic. Great 4 speed trans, traditional style, plenty of HP/Torque, and you can find two four barrel or three duece manifolds for them on the old Eldo's.

[continentaljohn]

Hey Mark, so you have a chevy motor already? and she's a runner?? Drop her in!! If chevy is not your cup of Tea.. I had posted a ebay buy a while back with a 1955 dodge with a hemi, whole car went for about a grand! Hemi's breath good with plenty of HP, look cool and part are in reason and still around.. Check in the HAMB classified a couple in there. So build it with what you have and make it cheap and fun , the HAMB way http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[C9]

[ QUOTE ]
My dream involves a channeled T roadster or severly chopped tall T w/ a baby Hemi, a stout tranny & posi driveline, and good traction. 12's for sure...maybe even 11's.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you could reach your goal with this engine in the lightweight T.
Other than traction - which also equals a good chassis setup - it should be a shoo-in.

In the fwiw dept., in 1985 at one of the first Nostalgia Drags at Palmdale Dragstrip - 1984 was the very first I think - I watched a 32 highboy roadster run high 12's at 112mph.
Pretty much your standard Deuce with all the standard stuff.
Not sure what the rear suspension was, but the slicks were 12-13" wide and maybe 29" tall on an un-narrowed rear end.
Not sure what the diff gearing was either.
The car ran what sounded to be a mildly built 327 SBC with T350 and sounded like the shift was done at 6200-6500 rpm.
The car probably weighed in at 2200# which is the usual weight quoted for these cars.

[ QUOTE ]
C9, I distinctly remember Louis' black Henry J running 9.40's at Palmdale with that Algon-injected 495 CID big block Olds. But that wasn't a budget motor, either. I was the guy that bought his entire top end including the injection and heads after he busted up the bottom.


[/ QUOTE ]

That engine was the 15/1 CR alcohol motor.
Louie had just purchased the DRCE motor and was getting the money together for the ignition and clutch as well as saving toward a Lenco.
He figured he'd run the alky motor while he built the DRCE.
Course, the alky motor seeing the DRCE waiting in the wings chose to commit suicide and self destructed in a manner that would have made a fueler proud.

The engine noted above, was either a revamped version of the first iteration or the 2nd bored out 455 he ran.
Regardless, the car did well and was fun to drive with what I view as a fairly mild engine.
Hydraulic cam, 850 Holley on a Torquer intake, headers, 463", roller rockers, oiling mods, a little head work, good valve springs, mild ignition, hot coil with points if I remember right, shot-peened rods (that he spun to 8 grand now and then although the usual shift point was 7 grand).
Reason he did well with this engine combo in both the ladder bar rear end stock frame with solid axle setup, un-narrowed rear and later on with the Alston tube frame, narrowed rear, Pinto front end and ladder bars again was the good tires and the good chassis setup.

In my opinion, 10's in a light car with mild engine are easy to reach if you have a decent chassis.

Nine's in a lighter car are just about as easy to reach.
One of his friends ran an Alston 27T drag race chassis, light glass body with just about the same engine, T400 etc.
Car weighed about 1700# and would run high nine's all day long and the only maintenance required was oil changes.
That to me, makes for a fun drag racer.

Nowadays, Louie has to do the full-on run the valves, check spring pressures et al after every run.
His choice and he enjoys it, but if I was doing it, it would be a low-rpm (5500-6000) big block (Olds or Buick) with hydraulic cam, blower and light car.

I kinda like the idea of cranking the car up, making a run and then hanging out in the pits or the grandstands....

[scotth]

Stay away from the baby hemis if you have to use the word "budget" anywhere in your project description. A rebuild kit sans pistons is around $1200! Throw in some cast pistons and rebuild rocker shafts and your looking at $2000. They you'll find that cool intakes are non-existant.

PHR mag is doing their "engine masters challenge" or whatever, but this time they're building big blocks instead of small blocks. The guy they're featuring is building a 455 Buford. Heads/Cam/Intake and he's shooting for 800+hp. He said something like a little less cam and compression and you'd have well over 600 in a "streetable package."

[SamIyam]

In my opinion, traditional rodding is really "restoring" while true hot rodding is making it go fast... but that's not to say that you can't have your cake and eat it too...

The Roach Rod did run 13.0's @ 106mph... and 60ft times were a very respectable 1.94 for the 5 1/2" wide bias ply tires and a four speed... thanks to a Ford Wishbone suspension that I designed to have an instant center about mid-ship...

Some people may poo-poo the SBC... but I guaran-fuckin'-tee that their so-called "traditional" car doesn't haul ass like mine... and get 20mpg like mine does either... I also know that the car will run 12.90's at Sacramento Raceway... the track that I ran 13.07 at was at 1200 feet... so, anyone else lay claim to a car that is pretty close to being mid to late 50's "period", runs high 12's AND gets 20mpg while cruising the highway at 75mph? (mileage drops to 19mpg when you cruise at 80+mph)
Here's a pic of the motor before it got buttoned up with all the wires, linkage etc...
Sam.

[SamIyam]

And a pic of the car "as raced" http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[SamIyam]

Then again you could build something a little more race oriented... light car, steel roadster body, 400hp engine (you pic what you want to make 400hp) trans brake, slicks and then run mid 10's. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Sam.

[mytlo56]

[ QUOTE ]
Stay away from the baby hemis if you have to use the word "budget" anywhere in your project description. A rebuild kit sans pistons is around $1200! Throw in some cast pistons and rebuild rocker shafts and your looking at $2000. They you'll find that cool intakes are non-existant.

PHR mag is doing their "engine masters challenge" or whatever, but this time they're building big blocks instead of small blocks. The guy they're featuring is building a 455 Buford. Heads/Cam/Intake and he's shooting for 800+hp. He said something like a little less cam and compression and you'd have well over 600 in a "streetable package."

[/ QUOTE ]

Good points...but if you're buying a motor that someone else has freshly rebuilt you reap the benefits of their hard work (and money spent). I don't know what the deal is, but there are a bunch of baby Hemis on EGay lately that are fresh and cheap. I like the Olds or Caddy ideas too. Man, I can almost smell the tire smoke as I sit here typing http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[continentaljohn]

Well if you looking for a bargin, chances are it's not gonna be on ebay. Don't get me wrong, some great deal on there; but your compeating with some Deep pockets.. As for the baby hemi, whats a baby hemi? 241ci or 354ci big diffrence between them. My point was a take out motor and drop it in as is.. The 354ci hemi had good power 300 or so HP and cool intakes are still made. A few hundred bucks or so for a tri power. Oh yea if you got to go thru the whole motor and pay for machine work. Wow , but that would go with most motors ,like a flatty. Parts and machine time add up fast!!!! So if budget is the question pound for HP it has to be the chevy motor.. I also think the question is what way to go? away from "TRAD" to "GO FAST" I'm saying do both. But if you go too fast , you'll have the cage and other safty item to run it at the track.. Speed limit is 55-65 http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Here's the hemi specs::: last numbers are horsepower ratings..

All engine numbers are stamped on top of block in front of valley cover.
Note: This list includes most automobile hemis. The industrial marine and poly motors are not included. Contact us if you need assistance identifying any of those blocks.

Sequence Year Name C.I. Carb. BBL H.P.
DESOTO:
S17 - 1001 1952 Firedome 276 2 160
S16 - 1001 1953 Firedome 276 2 160
S19 - 1001 1954 Firedome 276 2 170
S21 - 1001 1955
Fireflite
291
4
200

S22 - 1001 1955 Firedome 291 2 185
S23 - 1001 1956 Firedome 330 2 230
S24 - 1001 1956 Fireflite 330 4 255
S24A - 1001 1956
Adventurer
341
2-4
320*

S25 - 1001 1957 Firedome 341 2 270
S26 - 1001 1957 Fireflite 341 4 295
S26A - 1001 1957 Adventurer 345 2-4 345*

DODGE:
D44 - 1001 1953 Red Ram 241 2 140
D50A - 1001 1954 Red Ram 241 2 140
D50 (1, 2, 3) 1954 Red Ram 241 2 150
D553 - 1001 1955 Super Red Ram 270 2 or 4 183 or 193
D500 - 1001 1956 D500 315 4 260
KD500 - 1001 1957 D500 325 4 or 2-4 285 or 310

CHRYSLER:
C51 - 8 - 1001 1951 Chrysler 331 2 180**
C52 - 8 - 1001 1952 Chrysler 331 2 180**
C53 - 8 - 1001 1953 Chrysler 331 2 180**
C541 - 8 - 1001 1954 New Yorker 331 2 195**
C542 - 8 - 1001 1954 New Yorker 331 4 235**
WE55 - 1001 1955 New Yorker 331 2 250
NE55 - 1001 1955 New Yorker 331 4 250
CE55 - 1001 1955 Imperial 331 4 250
3NE55 - 1001 1955 C300 331 2-4 300***
NE56 - 1001 1956 New Yorker 354 4 280
CE56 - 1001 1956 Imperial 354 4 280
3NE56 - 1001 1956 300B 354 2-4 340***
NE57 - 1001 1957 New Yorker 392 4 325
NE57 - 1001 1957 New Yorker 392 2-4 375***
CE57 - 1001 1957 Imperial 392 4 325
58N - 1001 1958 New Yorker 392 4 345
58C - 1001 1958 Imperial 392 4 345
58N3 - 1001 1958 300D 392 2-4 380
* Very rare! All 4 BBL engines were approximately 10% of production.
** 1951 through mid-1954 have bell housings cast onto block.
*** 300 High Performance Option

[scotth]

By "Baby Hemi", I was referring the short-decked DeSotos and the Red Rams anyway.

I got a great deal on a complete 53 DeSoto 276 and tranny pull-out, but then started looking for parts... sheesh! The top-end is pretty sludged up, but there's almost no cylinder ridge. I've yet to tear the bottom end down. I may just "drop-it-in" and see at least. I was told it was "low mileage" and "the car ran great", but aren't they all http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I'll probably get it on a stand (it's in a cradle right now, so I can't get at it very well) and pull the pan off and take a look, check my tolerences and make the call then.

[wingnutz]

SamIam

As I had mentioned earlier I tipically run the SBC with great results..., and as you've stated before in another post about the 10 Second cars an example of "CaddyHack" project...,(excellent article) stating that there were many alternative drive trains that would be fast if the put them on a Diet.

So I thought that it would be cool and less expensive to find the right donor!

Continental I thought of hemi's and I'm very impressed with your set up... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif, but to squeeeeez out the speeds I want I'll have to finance better high dollar speed parts. And as far as looks are concerned "Hemi's" always had it! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

But I think my question was answered the other day when I went down to Kenosha for parts for the "WILLY's" (Jeep)..., I located about fifty cars in a pole barn from early 50's Buicks, Olds, and Fords to 69' Chevelles and Camaro's ..., they're all for sale! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I looked through the pile and saw a 62 Pontiac w/Factory 389(?) with tri-carbs and 4 speed "no shit"! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'm going to see what protocall is needed to help HAMB'rs find what they need (with prices)! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Mark

[Rainer]

@ Sam - what rear ratio do this rod have in it??

[Paul]

if you are gunna run a Chevy, why not go big?

last time I was at the drags there was one or two "other makes" but nearly all the fast cars had BBCs.

you could put modern internals in it and dress it up to look state of the art 1965.

Paul

[SamIyam]

Old Roachy has a 3.08 geared rear end...
Sam.

[SamIyam]

El Roachy has a traction loc diff that has worn out clutches... so it kinda slipped and burned one wheel a little more than the other on the burn out... but under launch, it did ok.

The BFD pulls the 60' beams in the low 1.40's with a 1.420 best... it runs the 1/8th mile in 6.500seconds at 102mph... yes, she is falling down on the top end... it should run 9.75 with those 1/8 mile times.... maybe when we up the compression and switch to a new cam with moer top end... ours dives off at 6000rpm when it should go to 7000rpm!
Sam.

[continentaljohn]

Now! how can you argue with that. Mark, I got buddies that sink thousands into ther motors and would kill for them times. Problem is the heavy cars they run. Your building a 1930 roadster right? So weight is about 1800lb when finished.. So 300 HP would be killer, bad choice of words but sure would run strong on the track, till they kick you off http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[modernbeat]

Wingnuts, if you want to go bare-bones-budget that means using a readily available, unwanted, and stock engine that you can salvage out of some equaly unwanted hunk of bloated iron.

I didn't catch if you prefered automatic or manual transmissions.

I think a lot of the sugestions that folks have made are indeed powerful engines, but they are all sought after and with the exception of the SBC, they are all expensive. And to top it off, a SBC build up, though cheap for the HP you get, is still a little expensive.

Back to stock engines.

That leaves the high torque big blocks.

I'd eliminate the Big Block Chevys. They have a huge following that evolved from the Muscle Car crowd and plain core engines are somewhat expensive, and collectable stock high power parts are real expensive. Aftermarket stuff is often cheaper, but still takes a cash outlay.

The two engines that I'd nominate are both unappreciated and abundent.

Runner up is the Mopar 440. Big and cheap. Hot a high revver, but so much torque, and it still breaths fairly well. They have a following in the Mopar community, but those guys seem to be cheap and the engines are fairly easy to find. The aftermarket has been supplying them since new and a huge body of used speed parts are available as well as the full compliment of new stuff. Chances are that if you get one it's old and abused enough it will need a rebuild. That's why it's not my choice for #1.

First place?

The Ford 460. It's got to be the most overlooked engine in the Ford line. There are a small but growing group of fans for this engine. They were plentiful in the Mercury, Lincoln, and Ford barges and Trucks of the late '60s through the '70s and continued in trucks into the '80s. They mostly came with autos, but the stick parts are available from trucks. You can run it stock and still get respectable HP, or you can mix and match early heads, late truck rods and pistons, and with a cam and intake change, you can extract HP that makes most stock head engines blush.

From my own experience, you should be able to buy three 460s for $700 or so, and finish the engine for another $600 with a bit of easy swap meet shopping for a carb and hopefully an intake. Forgot to mention how narrow they are. Fit under the hood of most any '30s Ford without much modification.

It's hard to make it look traditional though. But if you want a cheap-cheap bruiser, I think the 460 is your engine.

[SamIyam]

Yep... 440 Mopar be cheap and run good... I had a pile of crap 440 with a "purple" 550 lift cam, exhaust, home porting, Forged 11:1 pistons that was good for 11.60's in my 3400 pound belvedere... for four runs... then it went POOF! But ONLY because the block had the dreaded core shift... or so my buddy said at the time... it shoved a piston right out the side of the block!

Anyway... if the poncho goes south... look into the 440 Mopar...
Sam.

[Blownolds]

Aaaaand, both the 440 Mop and the 460 Ferd are front-sump, so you may have to invest in a rear-sump setup depending on where your crossmember is.

[mytlo56]

Wait a minute. What is the quickest you can run in a roadster/convertible at the strip w/ out a cage?

[SamIyam]

13.99 and quicker requires a roll bar...
Sam.

[C9]

[ QUOTE ]
And a pic of the car "as raced"



[/ QUOTE ]

So, Sammy Boy, is that your nitrous bottle sitting in the cockpit with you?
Or just your golf clubs....? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[FEDER]

Now yer talkin! a 440 in my opinion is the BEST low budget big block of them all. All the other brands you got to have a certain cyl head or crank or rods to get (the good ones)or certain year. And to aquire these parts are VERY expensive.With the introduction of Edelbrock heads now Buick-Olds-Pontiac-Ford FE it equaled the playing field, but not on a budget.And the 460 E-Bock heads are waaay up there.Chrysler was the one that started out with premium parts.Forged steel crank in all 440s 71 and below.Premium forged steel rods.I raced a 440 with a stock crank std 4 barrel rods 63 383 heads a single 4 barrel, solid cam for six years without failure.It finaly did explode but it was 15 to 1 comp running alcohol, but still with stock bottom end parts besides rod bolts and pistons.We started out shifting the car at 6800 rpm after many passes we found out that short shifting at 5000 from first to second and 5500 2 to 3rd produced the best times.In a 3200 lb car best time was a 10.54 @ 128.440s have the best oil pump of all the other,a gearrotor mounted outside the block.Thats one area ya gotta pay attention to.If your gonna run low gears at sustained speed (dragstrip) or high RPM ya better get a bigger pan or you will suck it dry and failure will occur.Heres a proven budget recipe for a easy 500 hp that can be used on any early decent running 440.
HEADS-any of the heads will do 516-517-906-952s.Minor bowl work and port match.214-181 valves with new springs that match the cam (later).Stock hyd rocker sys and pushrods.
INTAKE-Wiand street dominator and 750 vac sec Holley.
BLOCK-all the early 440s were 10 to one comp with steel shim headgaskets so any decent runner will do.Hone the cyclinders with a ball hone - clean the crank with red scotch brite and install new rings and bearings.New hv oil pump and 1/2" pickup tube, windage tray and A truck pan (rear sump with the sides kicked out)for more oil.
CAMSHAFT--any cam with 292 to 300 duration and 510 to 550 lift with a new steel timing chain.Use a new electronic dizzy with even a stock orange box new about 160 bucks.
Oh and ive never heard of a core shift problem with them EVER! The only time core shift was brought up was trying to bore a 390 to 428 so if ya try that sonic check the block first as many wont.So theres a cheap big torque-HP motor that will give many miles of beat the shit out of it service.Add a rebuilt small block converter they will stall at about 2800 for a little over 100. bucks and a T-Flite and in your light little rod drive it to the track and run LOW 11s or even a high ten.Dollar for Dollar the 440 is IMO the best overall choice.And it will kick the livin SHIT out of ANY budget 460--FEDER

[modernbeat]

FEDR, I agree that a built 440 will wail on a built 460. Popular Hotrodding did one of their runoffs between big blocks last year and the 460, though impressive, came in just below the Chevy 454 and so far behind the 440 that it wasn't funny.

But those are built engines.

In a strictly budget sense I'm talking about junkyard engines.

And I doubt you'll find a decent 440 in a yard, while they're brimming over with 460 engines.

[FEDER]

M-B your probably right about finding them in the J yard and yes you will still find 460s and for good reason mostly all truck motors.But there still alot of 440s if you look in the auto trader and parts and peices mag.The 440 I mentioned above a guy could do for just under 1500.00 with trans thats cheap for that much tire smokin horsepower--FEDER