HA/GR et and speed limits revisited for the left coast.

[Old6rodder]

Howdy all,

ThingyM said in another post:
BTW California guys...The tracks are talking about limiting us to either 11.50 et, and/or 110 mph. because of non NHRA safety issues.. Just thought I'd let ya know..

I responded:
I'd have no problem what so ever with 11.5, as HA/GR was originally devised around a 12.0 limit anyway.
In addition, there's no valid reason not to stick to the original 12.0 and several very good ones not to exceed it.

Considering the light weight of our cars though, I do believe that 110 is too low for 12.0 (let alone 11.5). We could live with it of course, but 120 would be more realistic, even for 12.0.

Dick, out of curiosity what are their specific concerns? If they're considerations NHRA doesn't address it sounds like they may be exactly the things that were addressed back in the formation discussions that resulted in the 12.0 limit as intended. Sounds like we might already be in agreement.

[64 DODGE 440]

Works fine for me.

Hell, I'll be extremely happy to get into the 13s and 100 with the little 218 flattie.

If we are willing to give them this one maybe they wont be such a painintheass about some of the other nit picky stuff.

Perhaps someone has actually seen the cars and understands that we aren't AA/F dragsters after all.

[Ron Golden]

Guys,

I agree that 11.50 is a realistic limit. However, at that ET the MPH is going to exceed 110. Our car has gone 12.10 @ 120.51 already, and that's after just 4 runs dogging it out of the hole and granny shifting. Roy Merritt has gone 117 MPH in his GMC and is talking about putting it on a diet this winter. I'm sure he'll get faster.

Roy Merritt, Bob Hindman and our bunch ran last month at the nostalgia event here in Kansas City and we didn't have any ET & MPH limits. It was at an NHRA track but it was a nostalgia event and we had to run exhibition only.

LOL....am I going to have to put a throttle stop on this thing?

Whatever it takes our bunch can live with it as long as we can race.

Ron

[Toymaker]

I better rethink the 2 Strombergs:D:D:D

[Joe Hamby]

Go for the Strombergs, you can always put restrictor plates under them. It would make a nice eighth mile. Joe

[ThingyM]

Dick... The main concerns are the roll cages.. Most are pretty inadiquit for a roll over at lets say 120 mph..Knees that stick out of the shoulder bar hoop. No tubes to hold the legs in, in case you get upside down. Helmets in front of the front hoop etc.. Same ol' NHRA crap, But I guess the track owners and promotors have to cover their ass's..You know, Like how come you let that guy run if the car wasn't safe.//( in case of a flip)..

[Old6rodder]

Got it.

Well, 110 and 11.5 would (for any real intent) leave the et open, as 110 in this light a car can be had at 12.6 or higher.

My gut inclination is in agreement with Ron, settle for it. It's not as good as elsewhere here but it's still racing. Hell, it's still better than the Aussies started out with, and look at'em now.

Dick, do you happen to know if this would be "on the road" toward an eventual HA/GR class (when we can field enough cars) or would it be just to keep us alive in bracket?

ps. They do realize, I'll assume, that the low mass of these things imparts significantly less inertial impact to a cage at 110 than ANYthing else presently running that speed.

[ThingyM]

I had a long conversation with Butch.. If we can muster up the cars.. We will have our very own class. And the 110 mph is not chizled in stone yet. But I do think the 11.50 is... But if we get going to fast, Tech will be making us put in a couple more bars

[64 DODGE 440]

I had a long conversation with Butch.. If we can muster up the cars.. We will have our very own class. And the 110 mph is not chizled in stone yet. But I do think the 11.50 is... But if we get going to fast, Tech will be making us put in a couple more bars

The cars are mustering up as we approach the 2009 season.

Keep the faith, this class is gonna live!

Lookin' forward to our first eight car show.:cool:

[Joe Hamby]

If we get to going too fast, we could unofissialy race to the 1000 ft mark with someone at that mark to judge and then we could let up after that point.

[348chevy]

I can live with 11.50 or 12 flat. My car at the last two races was in the 11's with a best of 11.78. I don't believe we can crack 11.50 with these tires. I think I have a good 60 foot time when I get a 1.95, I know a guy that has a 409 powered 55 Chev. that regularly gets 1.40 60 foot times. Even by changing to a 6 inch wide tire I still have to ease it out to keep the tires from blowing away. I think that as we progress we can live with limits. I don't think we should forfiet the looks of the cars just to go faster. The looks and the old engines is what makes these cars so great. I was watching a video of 2B and Cowboy Bob three days ago and they just rev their engines up and pop out of the hole, no skating around or anything. You start getting 250 or 300 hp and you are like a pig on ice. The tires will be a great leveling device and if we can run 12 flat great. I wish they would make 120 mph instead of 110 though. 2B is already past 110 mph and there are a lot of us over that speed. I'll live in the limits no matter what if I know I can go to any track and run.:cool:Roy

[Drewfus]

1. If I was in the 'position' to make the call (which I'm not), my prefference would be a 12.00/120mph battle.

2. Having said the above, I feel that politically speaking, the rule book seems to have a benchmark of 125mph where extra safety elements are required, so, to be consistant, I'd aim for a 11.50/125mph limit since the precedent is already there.

3. I personally would not want to be driving a HAGR anywhere past that point (item 2), as I'd want at least a 8" 'rag' tyre;):D.

Cheers,

Drewfus

[64 DODGE 440]

2. Having said the above, I feel that politically speaking, the rule book seems to have a benchmark of 125mph where extra safety elements are required, so, to be consistant, I'd aim for a 11.50/125mph limit since the precedent is already there.


Cheers,

Drewfus

Actually, that would give us a lot of room to play.

Can't speak for the rest of the guys, but that sounds like a good limit with lots of cushion for performance within our powerplant and tire limitations.

[Ron Golden]

I agree with Drewfus that 11.50/125 is a realistic goal. I think our car is one of the lightest with the most power and should top out around those numbers. In fact, I really don't see any reason to go faster.

Food for thought: Within our ranks the ET & MPH spread is drastic and I think it's unfair for us to run another much slower HAGR car heads-up. If we progress to the point of sanctioned racing why couldn't we run some kind of bracket race.

Am I completely off base here?

Ron

[64 DODGE 440]

I agree with Drewfus that 11.50/125 is a realistic goal. I think our car is one of the lightest with the most power and should top out around those numbers. In fact, I really don't see any reason to go faster.

Food for thought: Within our ranks the ET & MPH spread is drastic and I think it's unfair for us to run another much slower HAGR car heads-up. If we progress to the point of sanctioned racing why couldn't we run some kind of bracket race.

Am I completely off base here?

Ron

YES, you are off base! Bracket racing isn't racing. It was developed because the N(o)H(ot)R(ods)A(llowed) did away with a whole bunch of real classes that were based on logical concepts like pounds per cubic inch where people who built the quickest cars won and you couldn't "go too fast" and lose.

The whole point of these cars is heads up, run whatcha brung, "unlimited",(within our rules), drag racing.

You may be quicker and faster than we will be and you may have more cubic inches, but our car will be lighter, and I'll still stage next to you and even though I have gotten older, (which is really much better than the alternative), I still have good reactions, and you may just red light or miss a shift and if you do I will show you no mercy.:p

That is what this thing is all about.

Real Drag Racing, in garage built rails where we get to use our home grown ideas and do our best to beat the guy, (or gal), in the other lane.

When we go back into the pits the winner can buy the hot dogs and sodas and we can sit around and lie about how we could have won that race if we had just had a bit more luck or talent.

Sorry if I seem a bit nuts about this but that's how it used to be and how it should be with these cars.:D

[Old6rodder]

Damn, Tom, don't hold back like that. Bust out what you really feel, you know I can't stand someone who won't speak his mind. :p :D

ps. Well said. :cool:

[Rand Man]

Yes Ron, you are off base. The whole point of HA/GR was heads-up racing. You've built a car with twice as much power as was needed. If I were you, I'd just leave the line late on a regular basis to give the other guy a car length and a chance. Ha, Ha.

I've been trying to decide what to do with my car. The more I think about it, I think I want to create a new class such as HAMB Competition Coupe (HA/CC). Take the basic Gas Rail concept and add a body and a better level of safety. I say if you run faster than 12.00 or 115 MPH you should move up to Comp.

I'm not even sure If I can come up with the money to get my rail back on the track, let alone add to it. I just know we need to do something to keep this ball rolling.

[2b-banjo]

[QUOTE=Rand Man;3345098]
I've been trying to decide what to do with my car. The more I think about it, I think I want to create a new class such as HAMB Competition Coupe (HA/CC). Take the basic Gas Rail concept and add a body and a better level of safety. I say if you run faster than 12.00 or 115 MPH you should move up to Comp.

Rand Man, What would be your engine concept for this new class, I am interested? Also what transmission allowed?
I agree with running heads up only, I just need to find some more power!!!????
2B

[Rand Man]

Well, just about the only thing that will overcome the breathing limitations of a flathead (make it competitive with the Jimmys) is forced induction. Anything under 300 cubic inches should be allowed to add displacement through mechanical means (a blower). I still like my manual trans, but this should be the place for autos. Pie crust slicks should be allowed. I think comp should have a minimum weight (maybe 2000lbs?). Driver and engine placement should remain the same, but an enclosed body should be added. Extra roll cage bars can be mandatory. I'll start a new thread on this subject.

[mudflap261]

I agree with Drewfus that 11.50/125 is a realistic goal. I think our car is one of the lightest with the most power and should top out around those numbers. In fact, I really don't see any reason to go faster.

Food for thought: Within our ranks the ET & MPH spread is drastic and I think it's unfair for us to run another much slower HAGR car heads-up. If we progress to the point of sanctioned racing why couldn't we run some kind of bracket race.

Am I completely off base here?

Ron RON heads up only, that is why all cars run every round here at TULSA winners run winners losers run losers until there is only winner .when you come down for the nitro nationals there is race fridaynight also, that gives you up to 12 runs for the weekend.If this were a nhra event you get two qualiying first round losers go home that sucks tell; em 2b / 348 Rand man put engine in that thing and come race we need car count.

[Old6rodder]

Within our ranks the ET & MPH spread is drastic and I think it's unfair for us to run another much slower HA/GR car heads-up.

Ron, I'm not intending to "pile on" you here. I do want to explain my own outlook on the point as no one has clarified it to my satisfaction.

Nothing in honest racing is anything about "fairness", only about equal opportunity to lose. If the opportunity to lose isn't there the winning simply has no point ...... and no flavor. I, for one, don't want a liberalized, Disneyesque, cotton candied, "reality TV" version of the auld sport. I want to win, lose or draw on my own, thank you very much. I was man enough to take it then and I haven't changed.

Thus, our hopes for HA/GR to re-install that in our sport.

Bring your car, beat me into the ground as often as you can. Be as rude about it as your ego needs, you earned it. That's racing. I miss it.

[64 DODGE 440]

ron, i'm not intending to "pile on" you here. I do want to explain my own outlook on the point as no one has clarified it to my satisfaction.

Nothing in honest racing is anything about "fairness", only about equal opportunity to lose. If the opportunity to lose isn't there the winning simply has no point ...... And no flavor. I, for one, don't want a liberalized, disneyesque, cotton candied, "reality tv" version of the auld sport. I want to win, lose or draw on my own, thank you very much. I was man enough to take it then and i haven't changed.

Thus, our hopes for ha/gr to re-install that in our sport.

Bring your car, beat me into the ground as often as you can. Be as rude about it as your ego needs, you earned it. That's racing. I miss it.

amen!!

[Ron Golden]

OUCH.....LOL

I didn't mean to step on anyones toes, I was simply suggesting a way to equal the playing field a little. I'll keep my comments and suggestions to myself and just race whoever lines up next to us.

Ron

[dabirdguy]

I havn't done anything with my car yet either. My gripes still remain the same...the in-equity of the Horsepower and hte NHRA aceptance.

There needs to be something, ANYTHING done to get us leaglized on the NHRA tracks for me to continue on my buiild. The limits suggested here are probably well beyond what a flathead wil do, and if that is all that is needed, I whole-heartedly support them.

I coould also see where some sort of EQUALIZER, not BRACKET RACING, would help. Mebbe a fixed time advantage to us flatheads...say half a second to start, to be revisited annually based upon the previous years results to equalize the HP advantage the big jimmies have. I too hate the Breakout concept that comes with Brackets. Slamming on the brakes to win by a nose AIN'T RACING. A FIXED dial in late-launch time based upon certain engine types evens the playing field and could keep all the cars in the same class. We could also add a 1 second penalty for automatic transmissions to re-unite the group.

I hate losing. The probability of getting beat by 2 seconds consistantly is one of my main gripes. If I have a CHANCE of winning, that is different. 2 seconds allows the other driver to run a sloppy race and STILL beat me. If we can cut that advantage to a reasonable level, I'm good.

Not being able to race locally is my other gripe.
Solve these two and I'm back in!

The Horrible looks AWFUL LONELY sitting in the upper garage all by itself.
Glenn

[REJ]

That's what this class was intended to be, heads up and whoever wins, wins.
I've been to the HAMB drags twice with mine and went out in the first round, I will be back every year that I possibly can. Every year I will improve my engine a little and see what happens.
I pull 2600 miles round trip for this event and I'll guarantee you, if we start bracket racing, I'll go somewhere else. I can bracket race at my home track, if that is what I wanted to do.
My youngest son has the fever for one of these cars now, so I will have someone to run heads up in a similar car down here when we finish it.
Robert

[mudflap261]

I havn't done anything with my car yet either. My gripes still remain the same...the in-equity of the Horsepower and hte NHRA aceptance.

There needs to be something, ANYTHING done to get us leaglized on the NHRA tracks for me to continue on my buiild. The limits suggested here are probably well beyond what a flathead wil do, and if that is all that is needed, I whole-heartedly support them.

I coould also see where some sort of EQUALIZER, not BRACKET RACING, would help. Mebbe a fixed time advantage to us flatheads...say half a second to start, to be revisited annually based upon the previous years results to equalize the HP advantage the big jimmies have. I too hate the Breakout concept that comes with Brackets. Slamming on the brakes to win by a nose AIN'T RACING. A FIXED dial in late-launch time based upon certain engine types evens the playing field and could keep all the cars in the same class. We could also add a 1 second penalty for automatic transmissions to re-unite the group.

I hate losing. The probability of getting beat by 2 seconds consistantly is one of my main gripes. If I have a CHANCE of winning, that is different. 2 seconds allows the other driver to run a sloppy race and STILL beat me. If we can cut that advantage to a reasonable level, I'm good.

Not being able to race locally is my other gripe.
Solve these two and I'm back in!

The Horrible looks AWFUL LONELY sitting in the upper garage all by itself.
Glenn the first 2years of this deal the hornet and the ramrods raced each other almost every tnt night then cussed each other told everybody how sorry the the other guys were . while haveing cook outs on sat we did not know if anybody else would build cars we hoped they would but it did not really make difference we liked the concept and we were have ing fun ,if you really want to run in this class build acar go to test/ tune nights you we be surprised how much the cars will get if you are waiting on nhra you will have a beard downto your knees

[64 DODGE 440]

I havn't done anything with my car yet either. My gripes still remain the same...the in-equity of the Horsepower and hte NHRA aceptance.

There needs to be something, ANYTHING done to get us leaglized on the NHRA tracks for me to continue on my buiild. The limits suggested here are probably well beyond what a flathead wil do, and if that is all that is needed, I whole-heartedly support them.

I coould also see where some sort of EQUALIZER, not BRACKET RACING, would help. Mebbe a fixed time advantage to us flatheads...say half a second to start, to be revisited annually based upon the previous years results to equalize the HP advantage the big jimmies have. I too hate the Breakout concept that comes with Brackets. Slamming on the brakes to win by a nose AIN'T RACING. A FIXED dial in late-launch time based upon certain engine types evens the playing field and could keep all the cars in the same class. We could also add a 1 second penalty for automatic transmissions to re-unite the group.

I hate losing. The probability of getting beat by 2 seconds consistantly is one of my main gripes. If I have a CHANCE of winning, that is different. 2 seconds allows the other driver to run a sloppy race and STILL beat me. If we can cut that advantage to a reasonable level, I'm good.

Not being able to race locally is my other gripe.
Solve these two and I'm back in!

The Horrible looks AWFUL LONELY sitting in the upper garage all by itself.
Glenn

Sure let's give all of the slow guys a head start so they don't have to feel bad about being slow.

Why not just go bracket racing and just dial in three tenths quicker than you can run and you will never break out.

That ain't what this is about, and if you are waiting for the N(o)H(ot)R(ods)A(llowed) to welcome you with open arms you might as well get some of those drugs for the rest of us.

Sorry, I don't do drugs.......or bracket, or any other kind of handicapped racing. I'm here for whoever will stage in the other lane and lets get it on, thank you very much.

The only way to get one of these things approved is to build it and take it out and if tech don't like it, find out what ya need to do to make them happy and FIX IT!!

If we all wait until they have approved blueprints to build our cars to we might just as well buy modern altered or funny car chassis and put old engines in them and if we are real nice they might let us bracket race as long as we don't rock the boat.

I call BULLSHIT to all of the bickering and wishing that it was easy.......

NEVER WAS.......NEVER WILL BE!

[Mr. Mac]

Boy! I miss you guys.:D:D

[GMC BUBBA]

That is what this thing is all about.

Real Drag Racing, in garage built rails where we get to use our home grown ideas and do our best to beat the guy, (or gal), in the other lane.

When we go back into the pits the winner can buy the hot dogs and sodas and we can sit around and lie about how we could have won that race if we had just had a bit more luck or talent.


Got my vote on no bracket racing, i would be tickled to death to see my GMC run a 12.00 at any mph.
You know guys if we didnt beat every little point to death we might have more cars.
Just some "Bubba" logic.:D

Smokey said : As long as ya have a little skinny rule book thats racing!!

[nexxussian]

Smokey said : As long as ya have a little skinny rule book thats racing!!


Amen.

[lindross]

YES, you are off base! Bracket racing isn't racing. It was developed because the N(o)H(ot)R(ods)A(llowed) did away with a whole bunch of real classes that were based on logical concepts like pounds per cubic inch where people who built the quickest cars won and you couldn't "go too fast" and lose.

The whole point of these cars is heads up, run whatcha brung, "unlimited",(within our rules), drag racing.

You may be quicker and faster than we will be and you may have more cubic inches, but our car will be lighter, and I'll still stage next to you and even though I have gotten older, (which is really much better than the alternative), I still have good reactions, and you may just red light or miss a shift and if you do I will show you no mercy.:p

That is what this thing is all about.

Real Drag Racing, in garage built rails where we get to use our home grown ideas and do our best to beat the guy, (or gal), in the other lane.

When we go back into the pits the winner can buy the hot dogs and sodas and we can sit around and lie about how we could have won that race if we had just had a bit more luck or talent.

Sorry if I seem a bit nuts about this but that's how it used to be and how it should be with these cars.:D

Right on and well said dude! Now I need to go kick Bubba in the can this winter and get his back together and ready for next year. We would be tickled shitless to get into the 12's-13's...

[ThingyM]

Randy,, Don't tell John Bradley that..

[348chevy]

You know that the flathead guys have not plumbed the the depth of the ability of their engines. I believe that the flathead could easliy go 12 flat. 00 was in the 11's at Tulsa of course he had a PG. If you run the speed to HP ratio and see what weight is needed to go 115 or so, you will see that a 1200 lb. car can use less than 200 HP to acheive that figure. In the old days you would have one guy dominate a class until the other guys caught up. I don't think that we can say that we are done with the HP here. We are just getting started, there are guys right now that are taking Chev six engines in sedans and going in the 10's. Those engines would not be legal in a HA/GR but I'm just using it as an example. We should not throw in the towel and say we need to start giving head starts to certain engines. If we do that the class will go away because it is just another bracket race. I think the reason NHRA is having so much trouble now is that they have lost fan appeal by only concentrating on Funnycars and Top Fuel. People want to see cars like ours, homebuilt, going head to head.:)Roy

[CrkInsp]

Roy is correct. The 00 car did run in the 11's with an Auto (PG). But the last time I checked an auto used Hp, not made it. Heads Up, the only way to go.

[dabirdguy]

Boy! I miss you guys.:D:D

Ya, Ain't this group a bunch of sunshine?

[ThingyM]

Out here in Taxifornia, A small group of HA/GR guys have been busting their butts to get a place to race. And ANRA came along and now they have accepted us in their fold. I pesonally would race any way they will let us. You should have heard some of the comments from the tech guys at the track. There was no way these cars would be allowed down the track. After some discussion with the track people, and some mods to the cars, They are on the track. Now I for one am not going to bite a gift horse in the ass..My car will be on the track this next season. And I will race it, No matter which way or how they want me to do it. But the car will be there with me in it. Win Lose or draw..
This is how this class will grow. By the intrest people show in this class. And with the cars being on the track..I'm not sure of the facts yet, But we have heard of a possible 8 car field soon.... And that is because of the intrest brought on by Dick and Rocky being on the track. Not because they WIN all the time. If you keep this HAMBster thing going. Look what has happened since the first two cars were built.. I'm helping my friend with another one now.. Dick M aka Thingy..

[Joe Hamby]

Hi Dick ! what motors are you and your friends using? One of the things I like about this class is the differant motors being used. I used a bone stock 225 slant 6 with the original 1 barrel and with the original exhaust manifold and one pipe just turned out to the side, it turned 15.61 @ 82 Mph and was a lot of fun.

[ThingyM]

Old 6 is running a slant, Rocky has a Ford 6 in his. Ive been working on mine a tad, 194 chev 6. And my friend is trying to find a late model (57 -62) Chev 235 OR,,?? A couple of us plan on making a trip or two past the rockies..we'll see where it takes us......Dick..

[Joe Hamby]

Hi Dick, you know the easy way to tell a 235 from a 261. The 261 has larger oil line holes on the left side of the block

[ThingyM]

Thanks Joe.. I did not know that.. Will keep our eye open...

[nexxussian]

Most of them also have a pair of "captain's bars" cast into the Driver's side of the block roughly in the middle towards the deck (hard to see if the intake and exhaust are on).

[CrkInsp]

ThingyM, If you can get over the Big Hills come on over to Tulsa and run with the boys here. I'm sure you would get a big welcome. The invite is open to all HA/GR's. I'll post race dates as soon as they are solid. Remember, This Is Big Dog style racing. We'll be looking for you.

[ThingyM]

If all goes well, Tulsa would be one of the places we would go. And one in Texas... I have a very good friend who lives in Kansas (Close by) Who has an "A"Fuel car that comes to Tulsa..And a good friend who lives just outside Dallas..AndI know he would come by,,,SOOOO we will just have to wait and see what tomarrow brings......Thanks for the invite...

[vectorsolid]

Yes Ron, you are off base. The whole point of HA/GR was heads-up racing.

Sweet, I get to compete with my wallet for a change, I like that. :)

I hate that bracket crap to hard to win. :o To many guys not putting in enough money and building junk.

Nothing brings dudes to the track like knowing they are 3-4 seconds out of the hunt. :D

I'm just being a wise-ass, don't anybody get to bent outta shape. ;)

[64 DODGE 440]

Sweet, I get to compete with my wallet for a change, I like that. :)

I hate that bracket crap to hard to win. :o To many guys not putting in enough money and building junk.

Nothing brings dudes to the track like knowing they are 3-4 seconds out of the hunt. :D

I'm just being a wise-ass, don't anybody get to bent outta shape. ;)

No problem.......

Just show up ready to race and be prepared to give it your best shot.:p

And bring your 0.00 reaction times along.......or your "cherry picker" outfit.:D

[vectorsolid]

No problem.......

Just show up ready to race and be prepared to give it your best shot.:p

And bring your 0.00 reaction times along.......or your "cherry picker" outfit.:D

And my frilly pink poodle skirt. :D