What's your metal infused favorite filler....

[Spitfire1776]

....I've used Metal scuplt in the past. Just wondering what others out there are using. Maybe expand my horizons. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[choprods]

I never used any of those that didnt bubble or cold crack.I thought it was me- so I noticed every car that came in with a little ageon the stuff was in same condition.It wont stand extreme cold at all either- I wont use them any more.

[Tinbender]

I've had the same results as choprods. The stuff is crap, and there is really no need for it.

[pigpen]

I use "All Metal". It's made of aluminum powder. I've never had it crack and it only bubbles if you hit it with a torch.
Works good, lasts a long time. (Don't use it over Metalprep, just on clean roughed up metal.)

pigpen

[overspray]

Pigpen is right. "All Metal" is real good stuff.
Choprods and Tinbender are right also--it bubbles and cracks.

Now here's the gospel.

These fillers use the same resin as bondo/body filler mixed with aluminum powder (instead of talc) as a filler. Talc is a mineral used as a filler material--and yes--it is short for "talcum powder"-which is used to absorb moisture from babies asses.
Aluminum/metal fillers were meant to be used for seams and areas where moisture could penetrate to seal these areas.
Lots of "body repair technicians" mistook this as a foolproof way to fill rust holes and gaps in body panels. The moisture can still creep along the edge and surface of the metal under the filler and gaps can shift and crack the filler.
ALUMINUM TRANSFERS HEAT AND COLD VERY WELL AND FAST.
The hardner used in the filler produces heat to start the catalyst process. The temperature of the shop and the panel to be repaired also contribute to the catalyst reaction-too warm or too cold. The aluminum transfers the heat or cold faster and how evenly depends on the thickness of the filler area.
EVEN THE BEST "BONDO SLINGER" IS GONNA HAVE TROUBLE GETTING THE HARDNER AMOUNT DIALED IN WITH VARIATIONS IN TEMPERATURE WITH THESE PRODUCTS. IT'S ALSO IMPOSSIBLE TO SEE THE COLOR CHANGE WHEN YOU ADD HARDNER WHICH HELPS YOU SEE IF YOU HAVE THE BATCH EVENLY MIXED.
Also the thicker you apply this on the panel the more cure/temperature related problems you will have.

A thick batch-cool shop=not full or even cure.(bubbling later on)

A thick batch-warm shop=too fast cure/crystalizing the resin. (cracking and flaking)


I'm sure choprods and Tinbender will agree that the bad repairs they have seen were probably a result of the uses described above. They are both experienced professionals who understand the importance of proper preparation and technique.

The bottom line is: these fillers should be applied with regard to correct amounts of hardner and air/surface temperature, and in thin layers on a properly prepared surface. THIS TAKES PRACTISE.
These fillers are more expensive than regular fillers/bondo. They are also less flexible than regular fillers and are more suseptible to cracking from flexing panels. I prefer to limit their use to a skim coat over weld seams, followed by regular bondo/body filler. overspray

[choprods]

Overspray-I thank you for the Information you have posted on this subject.
It would be very easy to end up with a situation where all the repairs on a cars body would have to be redone in a shortlived refinish job.
This could be very costly in the Materials wasted as well as the valuable spare time we all have so little of.
Having said that I want to add something that is just my own experience and not the gospel at all......
I once did a job for a customer of mine who I had and have since done many jobs for. He is a custom painter of the highest caliber.
He will not paint a car that has had that type filler on it anywhere.
He did suprise me one time when he sent me a product to use on a car that I was doing a lot of welding and body changes on for him to finish. it was an EPOXY ADHESIVE that was meant to be used on Marine repairs such as when the transom had to be repaired on the boat. it was a two part and kinda resembled JB weld. I put a skim over every spot ,every seam in the chop top etc and I was not at all convinced following his orders was very smart idea.
it was a little sticky and I ground it level with a 24 disc then used filler over that.
well-long sory short- it was finished with Bondo brand filler and then his high solid primers-blocked and painted.That was about ten years ago and as I said there were MANY modifications as well as repairs done on that body and it has not had any cracking and most important to him NO SHRINKAGE of the filler areas under finish.
FLUKE?-I am not sure even now -but that car has held up really well.

[overspray]

You are right on the money, choprods. I have tried the same type of epoxy on some recent projects and it's working excellent for exactly what you describe. I used the same technique- with body filler over the epoxy. They are very compatible in that type of use. The auto manufacturers have been using an epoxy material for seams since the early eighties and that technology has evolved for the better also.

Now, about that custom painter and his aversion to doing work over certain fillers.
I'm sure he had some very bad experiences, especially in the early eighties with a problem of blotching or staining areas on his jobs right in the area where fillers were used. Clearcoats were gaining popularity especially with custom paint jobs as well as factory Base/clear jobs (in this country). The solvents in the paint systems were quite powerful and aggressive in those systems and actually caused a reaction with small particles in the body filler-producing an off tone stain-like area where the filler was used. Custom painting and clearcoat finishes involved more solvents being applied and this is where most of these problems showed up. Sad thing is, the Europeans had already experienced this and adjusted their filler formulas accordingly (clearcoat finishes were popular with manufacturers in Europe before North America.) The filler and paint companies took a while to get on the same page and correct the problem. Also there was already a bunch of product in the system they needed to sell. It took a couple years to eliminate the problem, but it is rare today. overspray

[Tman]

I have found much of what overspray says is true about mixing these types of fillers. I had good luck however with Evercoats Metal To Metal. Keep it thin, apply to a 50 grit or less surface. And have the temp stabilized between the metal and the shop. Worked well on my T and a Motorcycle tank I did a few years back.

[overspray]

Still, with all the advances in technology for paint and body supplies and materials, the MOST significant thing in the last 20 years is catalyzed primers.
Primers that do not let solvents from paint systems affect the body repair areas or expand and contract from absorbing solvents have been the most instrumental part of the refinishing system. This accounts for the best quality and long lasting results in refinishing. overspray

[Tinbender]

Overspray, thanks for taking the time to respond. I learn something every time I read one of your posts. I still don't see any reason to use these products. With the quality of the regular body fillers avalible now, failure is very rare. Seems like every car that I've ground into that has had cracks,(and thats much less common in the last 10 years or so) I've found Duraglass, or all metal under the filler. If guys are using it to seal their welds why not apply the material to the back side of the weld? Or learn to weld better! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[ESnacky6]

I've heard great things about Lab-Metal,
haven't tried it out yet though....

check it out, no mixing necessary,
and stands up very well to heat....

http://www.alvinproducts.com/


Later, Snacks....

[overspray]

I love this forum.
AT the time these products were developed, they were top line technology for their day. They evidently still generate enough sales to keep them on the market.
Tinbender-you are right on!! You and choprods are continually looking for the best materials and techniques to keep your craftsmanship on top. It's really hard to experiment on "customer" jobs so keeping up with the best products and techniques requires constant research and learning. This requires valuable time and resources that you more than likely don't get reembursed for.

The advances in body filler technology are very significant. Yes, good welding technique means laying down a good foundation for the repair.

I have experimented with the marine epoxy that choprods discussed on the back side of my seams and weld repairs. So far this looks to be a great system and from what choprods experienced with a heavily modified custom job with multiple seams, it will hold up very well.

I'm looking forward to meeting you guys face to face someday and gleaning some more of your experience and expertise. overspray

[Rand Man]

I used to do a lot of powder coating. I used a product I bought from The Eastwood Company. The name Metal to Metal sounds like it might be the same one. If you need to smooth out a part prior to powdercoat, it's the stuff to use. It will withstand the heat of the oven.

[overspray]

Neat link-ESnacky6. I remember using something like this to repair an exhaust manifold crack on an old tractor. It held for quite a while. I see there are 2 places in my hometown that carry it-a welding products distributor and a hardware/fastener distributor.
I see it is an air activated cure. It also says to pour a little of their solvent on top of the material in the can when resealing to keep it from curing in the can. I can't remember what type of resin that would be used that is air activated. I'll have to check with my on tap chemists. overspray

[overspray]

Rand Man-I was wondering if there was enough metal in that to use for powder coating. Were the results pretty good as far as the paint finish in the repair area.? I've wanted to powdercoat some items with imperfections that need to be filled.
I'm pretty sure that Evercoat sells the stuff to Eastwood.
overspray

[Rand Man]

I only coated smaller stuff like suspension parts, hinges, etc. My results were good. I didn't notice any shrinking, bubbling, or distortion. I hung them on the line were I worked at the time. The time, temp and poweder was just right so that helps.

[overspray]

Exactly the info I was seeking. Maybe that stuff ESnacky6 had a link to would work well for small imperfections. That was supposed to be good to 1000 degrees.
overspray

[Spitfire1776]

Maybe I should just stick with MetalSculpt it seems. Never had a problem with it in the past. Its not like bondo really at all, it does resemble more like JB weld in a bigger container. Got introduced to it in a metal scuplture class. It was used to smooth seams and any metal flaws for exterior scuplture. Don't think it used aluminum as a base because it didn't reasct with exposed steel in anyway. Maybe an alloy?

Thanks guys I was wondering because I was hoping for an easier solution to find around where I live. The MetalSculpt usually has to be bought at a better art supply depot.

[Rand Man]

I searched for MetalSculpt but nothing came-up on Yahoo. I'm looking for something that cures really tough. I want to create some metal forming bucks. I may start antother thread.