Getting an early car painted..sorta a rant or maybee a Q

[Tman]

Working in a shop lets me deal with one aspect that most of us take for granted. Finding a painter! I know..primer blah blah blah...................but the fact is most folks want a shiny car (most except this crowd). our shop does not do paint work BTW. Around here we can NOT find anyone that wants to paint early cars. The body shops make too much doing Insurance work to mess with a complete. I have a car stalled out right now that could have gone to paint a month ago. Do you folks have this problem elsewhere? I know paint is not cheap and customers can be........The only shop near me that is willing to paint did a Ridler car this last year. They are amazing but out of the reach of most guys for a driven street rod. (20K+ if you must know, a good deal if you know paint) Just some thoughts. I can see how many guys and gals get scared away from hotrods when they start asking "how much?" Meanwhile, I got a guy with 8K in his pocket and cant get his car painted!

[modernbeat]

Tman, I've got a guy in Houston that does body, paint, reassembly, buffing and touchup for about $10k plus materials. He does quality jobs from very clean driver, to show winning quality.

He's booked about a year in advance.

And he will also do any metal fabrication and metalwork. He only charges $45 per hour for metalwork and $35 per hour for body and paint work.

[Tman]

Thanks for your input Jason. We also charge $45 for metalwork. It is getting so hard to find a paint and body guy that I am thinking of getting back into it as well. (I grew up in bodyshops and have been out of it enough to forget my bad habits http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[CharlieLed]

Why are shops charging so much for paint jobs? The best paint you can buy, HoK or PPG pearls/Shimrins etc, will set you back $2K for the complete job with reducer. How much labor can you possibly charge to get this number bumped up another $8K? I started doing body work in 1966 and I ran my own side-business for years painting cars in my garage. I follow the industry today and know about the OSHA restrictions and the need for more expensive equipment, but $10K-$20K to paint a car?
I spoke iwth Gene Winfield last year at his shop in Mohave, he told me that he would paint my 50 Merc for $6K and that was a full-custom Winfield -patented blend job using HoK top of the line materials.
I'm confused... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Tman]

These shops are spoiled on Insurance jobs. My late model Ranger was in the shop for less than 24 hours for a bed-side replace/paint. It was $1600!!!! They look at the bottom dollar.PERIOD. We had one local painter that priced himself into the poorhouse doing customs, he is a Wyotech instructor now.

[modernbeat]

Charlie, my pal WILL do a paint job for $2500, but that doesn't include any materials, it doesn't include doing the wheelwells, inside the trunk, or underneath the body. I don't remember if it includes the dash and I don't think it includes the firewall or inner fenders. This is assuming that the metalwork is done and all the car needs is minor-minor bodywork, paint and buffing.

Assembly, more buffing, and painting those other areas takes more labor, and cost more. He will only do touch up for free if he does the assembly, otherwise, if someone else does it, he charges for it.

[slazzen]

here in the bay area home of some of the greatist painters in the industry a basic paint job for a hobbist car starts at 10k charley just did a basicly stock 65 impala for that price and it go`s up steve horst is charging on average 15k to do bikes right now!! himsl i here is 20k and charley makes less than most guys doing insurance work but he loves hot rods

[spudshaft]

My dad has that problem right now. He has a Dodge Challenger -COMPLETELY disassembled, no rust, and maybe one or two dings. He was quoted 10K by one shop. I just don't see where the labor is. I've resigned to paint my own crap. Otherwise, I'd have more in the paint than the the thing is worth.

[Roothawg]

Call Tuck... He's good and not that far away.

[Tman]

Yes, Tuck is good, but he not set up to do what we need at the shop on our timeframe while he is in school!

A good pal of our shop looked at this truck and begged off. He also does bikes and gets a couple grand just for the tins w/o any bodywork!!!! Makes a full car in bare metal look like work.

[choprods]

Tman- whats wrong with people- cant they fathom the humiliation of making an error?why in the hell cant anyone just do their own paint work? I never could understand why.....I know some GREAT painters and yes even they have something to hide on occaision.....Get over it dudes- do some of your own goddamned work- stop being a check writer rodder.Hell I can accept having to redo something once in a while-we all make a mistake once in a while- it wont kill you either!!!!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif!Hell ya never know if they are so particular -once they see how much work it is maybe they can accept 99 perecent after all!!!!

[modernbeat]

For you guys that don't see where some shops quote 10K for a paint job from a bare metal car that needs NO metalwork, here's a breakdown straight from the painter's mouth...

Good paint that won't break down, or craze, or go milky and will buff out to a super shine is about $1500-2500 depending on how much is needed. That includes the reducer, hardner, primer, etc...For a good job, you need LOTS of pirmer.

Sanding and masking materials. For a good job sanded to 1000 grit before the paint goes on, figure spending about $300 for sanding materials and about $100 for masking.

Buffing? More sandpaper, glaze and a pair of buffing pads. Most guys dont sand to a fine enough grit, and start buffing too soon. Sand more and buff less! Wet sanding and buffing materials cost ANOTHER $200 at least.

The body and paint work takes from 3 weeks to 6 weeks (usually closer to 3 weeks). So, pay someones wages, wage overhead, taxes, equipment, and shop lease space for that time, and your good 10K job painter MAY be able to afford a 7 year old Toyota, a small apartment, and the occasional movie.

You can cheap out anywhere you want to in this equasion. Use cheap paint that buffs out hazy and save some bucks, sand less and use less paper, but get some minor sanding marks, work less labor and get less buffing done, no color sanding in the interior or door jams, quickie masking with resultant overspray, etc...

[modernbeat]

Choprods, this topic of paint came up a week or so, and this is what I wrote. It applies here in spades...

[ QUOTE ]
As far as the sugestion of grabbing a spraygun and doing it yourself, in the time of laquer where all it took to get a good paint job was more labor and no intelligence or experience, that was good advice. But if you want a good GOOD paintjob these days, with modern paints, you really do want to find someone with experience doing the type of job that you want done. The dangers posed by modern paints are not something you want to experiment with. The best advice that someone gave if you want to persue the DIY paintjob is to enroll in a class. Paint CAN kill. I've got a friend with a malfunctioning liver and another with one lung and a poor liver that hurt themselves with modern paint.

[/ QUOTE ]

Take a look at that thread. (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=177656&Forum=U BB1&Words=modern%20paint&Match=And&Searchpage=0&Li mit=25&Old=allposts&Main=174349&Search=true#Post17 7656)

[TINGLER]

....and tell me again....... why is it all of you all make fun of flat black and Rustoleum?

I can see the fact that it is getting overdone, but.....c'mon.
The price is right and a do-it-yourselfer can't foul it up.

Damn, if I woulda saved up for a proper paint job, I would still be saving!
(and not driving and having a good time) (o.k.....rant over...)

Yeah, I hear the same shit around here. Body shops do not want to touch older cars. If a backwoods shop can't slap a taiwan fender or quarter on when the going gets rough, then they don't wanna touch it. IMHO.
Who can blame them. Body work is a tough and thankless job. Plus I believe all the old school techniques like panel beating and custom hammer forming have fallen by the wayside. I can't think of anyone around here who owns an English wheel.

JT.

[Tman]

Good breakdown 'beat.
Kenny, the guys we deal with on most accounts have not the time.desire or skills to paint! That is why they pay us to farm out the work. I have a 29 Phaeton in the shop (the car I need to get painted) that has over 30K into it in bare metal without a motor, tranny, paint, interior. The owner is from out of state and just wants to drive it not work!!!

[TINGLER]

Modernbeat,

Thats another reason why I used Rustoleum. The two part paints nowdays are a killer.
That is no shit. When I started learning about them, It really freaked me out.
I stay away from that crap.

JT.

[Tman]

Tingler dude, we are a metal fab shop and have an Engrish wheel as wel as a planishing hammer and other assorted tin tools. We are in a small area without a high income base. I can tell you based on dealing with everyone from millionares to paupers that they all complain about price. As for the flat black, its cool and easy. My car will be shiny painted by myself. That is what makes the HAMB fun, we do it ourselves, but the customers I deal with are not on the same wavelength!

[Kustm52]

Hey, does Ngo Long Dong sell those Engrish wheels? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Sorry, I couldn't resist.....

Brian

[modernbeat]

No Yankee my Wankee! Dong must EAT!

[Kustm52]

Wonder what Ngo has been up to lately...what was his wife's name? Sum Dum Phuc? And his daughters Phuc Mi and Phuc Yu...

Brian

[Unkl Ian]

The daughters are names Chu Me and Blo Me. Also known as The Bubble Gum Sisters.

[Kustm52]

I thought they were the cousins...daughters of Aw Phuc....

Brian

[Unkl Ian]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't think of anyone around here who owns an English wheel.



[/ QUOTE ] There are plenty of guys around with English wheels,just not too many making money from them exclusively.

[DrJ]

I think the difference is similar to a guy going to a barber and getting a six dollar haircut and figuring "Oh well, It'll grow back in a couple of weeks" and a dame going to a salon and blowing $125 on a a cut and wash & set.
It's that much because if she can't make it do the same thing the next morning she's gonna be back in getting it all done over on a freebe.
A neighbor of mine who owned a beauty salon years ago told me they charge three times as much for a woman's haircut because shes three times more likely to want it fixed the next day for free.
Paint jobs are the same way. It doesn't matter if it's a $200, $2000 or $20,000 paint job, the owner, or worse, his so-called friends are going to go over it with a magnifying glass and WHEN they find the flaw(s) they are going to want afreebe fix.
So the price has to cover at least two complete paint jobs!

[Unkl Ian]

It's like anything else.Twice as nice costs more than twice as much.A friend of mine does custom paint.The amount of work that goes into getting every panel perfect is staggering.The last paint job on his show car took 7 gallons of clear to bury all the graphics.I think the good clear is $300 a gallon. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I think Flat Black will suit me just fine.

[modernbeat]

DrJ, my pal's moto, and he tells this to his customers is:

You pay to complain.

With a smile, he'll fix any complaint about quality or finish on his showcar paintjobs. And frankly, no-one has taken been able to challenge his finished show car paint.

[brutus t maximus]

the way i figure it is:


you get 90 percent of the result with 10 percent of the work...

it is the last 10 percent of the result that takes 90 percent of the work!!!

same basic theory in paint.


if you have to have perfect you damn sure gonna pay for it.

recently i saw a 58 impala displayed in a rod shop for sale, the price tag reflected an invoice for a $25,500 dollar fantastically beautiful paint job... the car was nearly flawless..... until under just the right light.... across the decklid on a diagonal was a flaw in the paint about an inch wide and about 3 feet long..... dead on you couldnt see it,, but under just the right light and viewed at the right angle there it was... man, that sure ruined it for me..

yup it is rustoleum for me... and i will do it myself..

hell i can fuck up a panel and fix it myself, dont need to spend 25k to do that

bob

[Tman]

DrJ...exactly what color is the sky in your world???????Inquiring minds want to know.

[DrJ]

[ QUOTE ]
DrJ...exactly what color is the sky in your world???????Inquiring minds want to know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Today the sky was blue, the clouds looked like white cotton candy and the sunset like strawberry sherbet.... Why? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[MercMan1951]

When I was at the body shop, my boss put up a sign that read:

GOOD

FAST

CHEAP

Pick two, because you can't have all three.

I think that pretty much sums it up. A while back, a post was made about insurance jobs and autobody shops...that's the bottom line. When we had a custom or restoration job at the shop, it got kicked into the corner until we got slow or had time to work on it. The fact is, the regular patrons who wrecked their everyday cars came first, because they needed their cars back yesterday. Insurance companies wouldn't pay for their rental cars beyond what THEY thought the length of time the repair should have taken. After that, it was out of my boss's pocket, and that sure wasn't going to happen. The time-consuming work always took a back seat, regardless of how much money we stood to make off it. It takes a long time to get panels straight, to order those parts Joe blow couldn't find, and to make sure things are flawless. People don't understand that at every twist and turn in the body restoration process, disaster is waiting in the wings. Get a car all painted, looks perfect, then you accidentally snag the buffing wheel on a fender edge and burn thru the clear http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif geeze, now you have to repaint the whole side of the car, to ensure the paint will match, because of a 1/2 in cut mark...it's very stressful! You can't afford to do something over again if you screw it up, because ultimately, the shop eats it. Like a previous poster said, they charge so you can complain. Because ulitmately, you will. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[CharlieLed]

If I thought for a minute that there was a customer base out there willing to drop $8K - $10K on a paint job I'd quit my day job and go back into body and paint work. There's just no way in hell that I can add up the numbers for labor and come up to $10K for a good paint job, especially when these guys are getting clean bodies to work on. If that kind of money was warranted, we'd all be payin' $100K for a Chevy Geo! Somebody is really makin' a killing here. As for mistakes, you always make mistakes, that's why you shoot multiple coats of clear over the base coat and sand and buff. I guess I'm in the wrong business....

[customcarpainter]

Bring the car to me,I'll do the job for you.If your customer is willing to pay the bill,lets get that car in a trailer and on the road.$45.00 an hour plus materials,with receipts.All time will be documented with timecards.Photos will be taken with digital camera and cataloged.I run my own shop,no employees and my shop is 90 feet from my house.If you have a deadline of when you HAVE to have the car back,I'd be willing to make a guarantee on the completion date.I use Sikkens products exclusively and am certified by Akzo Nobel.Give me a call!

[Tman]

Thats an interesting offer. I HOPE I can find someone closer though! Who knows, this car might go east to get paint.

[brewsir]

In my shop clear runs about $350 a gallon.
Painter is $35 /hr (after the insurance co rips me for $9/ 100 of payroll in workeres comp)
Bodyman is paid about the same
I'm the lowest paid worker in my shop and I own the damn place.
If we don't take in at least $5000 every week.....we're losing money.
I still do old cars because thats what I like. I do insurance work because it pays the bills.

[DrJ]

[ QUOTE ]
In my shop clear runs about $350 a gallon.
Painter is $35 /hr (after the insurance co rips me for $9/ 100 of payroll in workeres comp)
Bodyman is paid about the same
I'm the lowest paid worker in my shop and I own the damn place.
If we don't take in at least $5000 every week.....we're losing money.
I still do old cars because thats what I like. I do insurance work because it pays the bills.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought you were a postal worker?
Are you a Gemini? (twins)
Did I miss the job change thread while I was"at camp"? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Machinos]

I was dead-set on getting some modern enamel where if I took care of it, it'd last forever.

Welp, I can forget about that now. I suppose it'll be more fun painting a huge 4-door by myself with 20 coats of lacquer anyway http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Either that, or I could take it to Mexico. The yard where I got my '47 has a lot of Mexican workers, and when I picked the car up, one of the guys told me I should take it to Mexico for the paint and interior if I wanted a good deal.

[hatch]

Just finished a 58 Corvette. It was stripped of paint by the owner and was completely disassembled. I repaired the cracks and holes (not too many) and prepped and painted it.He did the reassembly. I charge by the hour and ended up with just over 400 hours labor in it. The owner is a serious restorer and expects to win when he shows his cars. You do the math at your labor rate and add 2000 for materials...then tell me how cheap paint jobs should be.

Body and paint is boring, tiring, and hazardous. If you want "nice", it can be expensive.

[Jdee]

I just paint interior parts; most people really have a problem with our prices.
That’s cool because we don’t like to paint for MOST people! A 34 Packard requires a little more work on the dash than a Pinto,, Sorry… Pinto guys;-)

Don’t take a turd to get painted by a Diamond Painter!

The funny thing is we have to tell the cheap guys, if they can come up with the bucks, they got to wait 6 Months for turn around…. And we are still the bad guys. DAM us for doing good work!
Some times I wish I could say would you like Fries with that?
Jdee


Oh and always believe that your new
paint is indestructible and will last a lifetime.
Cuz we all know that good paint is like Kryptonite.
Guess what a $50,000 Paint job can be keyed
Just like a $50 Paint job………

[Tinbender]

[ QUOTE ]
These shops are spoiled on Insurance jobs. My late model Ranger was in the shop for less than 24 hours for a bed-side replace/paint. It was $1600!!!! They look at the bottom dollar.PERIOD. We had one local painter that priced himself into the poorhouse doing customs, he is a Wyotech instructor now.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one is getting "spoiled" on insurance work. We have to fight for every dime we get. It's getting worse all the time. I'd be surprised if the profit from your 1600.00 job was more than 150.00. One fuck up, and that job turns into a loss for the shop. Last shop I worked in had to take in 150 grand a month before we made any money.
The biggest reason collision shops won't take resto & rod work, is that it just dosen't fit in with the work flow. If your going to run a profitable body shop, everything has to flow as smoothly as possible. There is no room for old shit sittin around, taking needed stall space.
As for the cost of the high end paint jobs, it takes time to make them right. Most of the labor is in making the surface straight. The best body work out there would look like shit without priming and blocking...lot's of it. If it was easy money, I'd still be doing it for a living.(I do one a year now, and only if I do the body work. I'm booked up for 2 years.) Why it's so hard to find anybody willing to do it? Hard fucking work, and everyone thinks your getting fat, fucking them.
Good post, T. Good luck finding somebody. For the rest of you, learn how to paint, or lower your expectations. Not everyone needs, or can afford a "show" quality paint job.

[Jdee]

That’s right on, People read the factory instructions to me.
Prime, Scuff, Grain, Clear, and Buff….
Well scuff and Buff Takes real skill and Real people.
And they forget the surface is OLD CRAP that
We gotta fix. Hey take it to MACO…
Jdee

[Tman]

Tinbender, it doesnt matter if they make 150 or 1500 on an insurance job. They like them cause they TURN!!! You and I said the same thing basically! I do think a lot of the custom guys that worked around here were trying to get rich. That is why they dont paint anymore, no one will pay them.

I also dont argue that it is tough work. Wet sanding til you have no fingerprints is not firest on my list!

I do intend on painting my own car. I have plenty O experience in years past. I learned from a master when I painted my first car back in 84. I owe a lot to him, never thought he would save me this much coin!

[Tinbender]

yep, collision and custom are very different from a business stand point, even though alot of the same skills are used. I know alot of bodymen/painters that aren't worth a shit at custom, and custom guy's that couldn't survive in a busy collision shop. I don't think I'd take a rod to a regular body shop. Of course, if I couldn't do this stuff myself, I'd be driving a fuckin geo!

[choprods]

I can see both sides of this post . I have painted a lot of cars myself over the years- I no longer wish to do painting. I do feel like there are NOW a lot of "non car" people INVOLVED in our "hobby" now a days.... what happened to the day when a guy did his own work and if some prick picked at it or belittled him,he would knock the shit outa him! I think its sad that we have went away from that mindset......also with these non car-types "building" their cars [with no Real involvemnt on their part] and a sometimes general lack of taste thrown in for good measure-no wonder we have someVERY "unique" "street Rods" to look at. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Dooley]

I had my car painted by a shop that has been doing custon work for about 45 years.

I bought the primer and paint, total $1000.00
Cost for the bodywork was $750 plus a 1946 Ford 2dr seadan, that i was inot for about $25.00(Long Story) the car was woth $2500.00
So your lokking at $4250.00 for light bodywork, primer and paint.

It's not a show job and it will need to be fixed in some spots, but I'm happy.

[roadstar]

[ QUOTE ]
I had my car painted by a shop that has been doing custon work for about 45 years.

I bought the primer and paint, total $1000.00
Cost for the bodywork was $750 plus a 1946 Ford 2dr seadan, that i was inot for about $25.00(Long Story) the car was woth $2500.00
So your lokking at $4250.00 for light bodywork, primer and paint.

It's not a show job and it will need to be fixed in some spots, but I'm happy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is a perfect example how it is today.

Now taake a newly build 32 roadster(glass or steel) and add the labor cost to paint the Frame, and all the chassis components, the bottom of the car,every little piece in and out.
And when you are done, have no places that need to be "Fixed".

THat would easly put up near 10 grand.

[porknbeaner]

There are a lotta shops around here that will do paint any where from cheap to OH WOW!!! but as everything in this industry it is BUYER BEWARE!!!

20K+, that's a little steep, unless your getting into a lot of really wild shit. Most Riddler winners that I've seen in the last few years had just your pretty basic paint job. Nuthin' real wild and circusy.

I guess the price of paint is one of the things that is really driving up the cost of rodding, and causing a big comeback in Jalopies (I don't care for the term Rat Rod).

Looks like it's time for you to get the Hambers from your neck of the woods together and find out who can do what. Then you can cause those who can't to pay for your ride, and those who can, can trade favors.

Good ol' "Old School Hot Rodding." It worked 50 years ago, and there is no reason it wont still work today. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

if it don't get ya dirty it aint yours http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[fordnutz]

I do my own body and paint because I am so fussy. I couldn'f afford to have someone do it to my expectations. My paint and body work is straight and shiny. I always leave an easily noticeable flaw in it somewhere for the dicks that have to find that stuff. Makes it easier for them and they walk away pleased. I have had people ask me to paint their cars for them and am not interested. I told one guy that was bugging me that I wanted one million to do the body and paint his car as straight as mine. I told him if he wanted a million dollar job why would he expect to pay any less. I told him I had painted my car and reblocked it when it was done and painted it again and would he pay for that. He didn't think so. I am a backyarder that was taught by some masters. Best praise I ever had is when one of my heros looked my car over and said to me, ya done good. Beats any trophy I could ever receive. Recognition from your peers beats a $10 trophy any day. If you are going to play with the new materials, make sure you have your body covered and a good mask. That stuff is deadly. It can go in through your skin as easily as your lungs. I will only do strictly metal work for guys now.

[DrJ]

Do any of you pros have documented figures on how much the prices on materials, primer, base coat (which is actually a lacquer by a different name) and urethane clear coat jumped before and after Acrylic Lacquer was banned?
Urethane plastics cost between $12-$20 a pound retail but the clear coats are "thinned" so who, if anyone, is making the big bucks and using the EPA restrictions as an excuse?



The whole keeping formulas one step ahead of the EPA's bans on the "new formula" reminds me of the part in "A Clockwork Orange" (the book) where the "milk bar" served milk laced with the latest "designer drugs" that weren't on the drug cops list of illegal drugs yet....Read the book, it's better than the movie.

[D Picasso]

it's true.....the book's a blast.

so Doc, can you tell us the why and how of lacquer's outlaw status? it sure seems to me the negative aspects of catalyzed finishes would trump any concerns over lacquer's.

by the way, those looking for ol' timey nitrocellulose lacquer should talk to their friendly guitar or violin maker, as nitro is still popular for finishwork in the industry.

[DrJ]

[ QUOTE ]

so Doc, can you tell us the why and how of lacquer's outlaw status? it sure seems to me the negative aspects of catalyzed finishes would trump any concerns over lacquer's.

by the way, those looking for ol' timey nitrocellulose lacquer should talk to their friendly guitar or violin maker, as nitro is still popular for finishwork in the industry.

[/ QUOTE ]
here's one I just found on a search http://www.reranch.com/

I think as I said they have a law against putting two gallons or more of lacquer thinner into the air for every car that gets painted, (through overspray and evaporation after) but they don't have the same concern over the small quantity of iso-cyanide that gets released from the urethanes because it's only kill ing the poor sap whose spraying it and one or three people down wind or in th same sweat shop where it's sprayed (not talking about the shops owned by the fine people on this board, but I've worked in shops that used to spray Imron in just a three sided technically legal? "booth" and the fumes went everywhere.)

It's like the drugs in the book, they weren't illegal, yet.
What gets me is you can still buy gallons of cheap lacquer thinner at Home Depot, for?
Like Catalytic converters convert the gasses that they determined were "bad" into other gasses. These other gasses (like Sulphur Di-oxide) are just as bad, but they aren't on the illegal list and aren't tested, so the "game" goes on.

I usta work in R&D making crash test dummies and they are the same thing. they supply an accepted answer to th game of testing. the dummie gives the results the car makers want to build to. They aren't necessarily making the cars safer for people as much as they are making the car pass a test with the dummy in it.