NHRA and IHRA legality? What's the dealio? [Archive]

vectorsolid

10-20-2008, 12:12 AM

I keep running through random posts and comments about HA/GR cars "Not being NHRA legal". Having to find friendly tracks, etc.

There are various partial discussions in a few build and for sale threads, but I've decided to ask here rather than ruin somebodys for sale thread with additional debating.

I can understand there not being a specific class for them to be in, and they might be more of an ET bracket car, but what is not NHRA legal about them?

You guys using bungee straps to hold down the battery? ;)

Our 1/8 mile track is being IHRA sanctioned this week, and the next closest track to me is one of the oldest NHRA tracks in the country.

So I'm interested in what people say when they say, "not legal". Do they mean "not safe", relative to existing rules? Something I can do during the build to change this? I'm not sure on the exact meaning of the phrase.

I've sloughed a few minor things through tech once in a while... but would just assume not. Or is this a few guys griping that this Ryan fella should be out glad-handing the sanctioning bodies trying to get a class going? I have no idea. I'm still the FNG.

Just asking, it's particularly pertinent to me at this time.

Toymaker

10-20-2008, 02:04 AM

Vector, I believe that most of the original comments about the HA/GR cars not being NHRA/IHRA legal were in regards to the "Single Hoop" Roll Bars. When we built our car we followed the 2008 NHRA Rule Book Funny Car/Altered guidelines and haven't had any problems once we made the cage a 5 point. The ANRA Organazation we run allows tow vehicles so we get away without a radiator, something to check on with your local track. Follow the General NHRA Rules and gather all your safety equipment (Helmet, Suit, Shoes, Arm Restraints, Gloves, etc.) and go racing. Rocky

vectorsolid

10-20-2008, 02:21 AM

Ah, good information. :)

Got a picture example of both to set HA/GR builders on a better path?

bobw

10-20-2008, 01:54 PM

Find the thread entitled, NHRA Rules Meeting in this section (HA/GR) and on page 3 there are pages reproduced from the NHRA rulebook that address the roll cage in FEDs and Altereds.

nexxussian

10-20-2008, 04:27 PM

Part of what happens (from what I read) is the tech inspectors think the car is going to go faster than it will, so they want to tech the car like it's a 6 or 7 second slingshot (which of course they aren't). It doesn't matter that the owner tells them it's likely to 'only' go 12's (13's 14's whatever) the tech guy doesn't want to believe it (how many people have BSed their way onto the track with a car that went WAY faster than the owner told the Tech inspector it would?).

vectorsolid

10-20-2008, 04:57 PM

vectorsolid

10-20-2008, 05:25 PM

Good read.

I find it hard to believe we can't find a middle ground on this. Realizing that the nhra does not care about us. So, how to make the car squeak through tech at a local nhra track, with the local inspector, that's the real situation.

Weeding out the fastest 5-10 HA/GR cars, where are you guys at? 13's-15's? 9's in the 1/8?

And to play devils advocate here. 56,000 HAMB members and we've managed in 2 years to scrape up how many HA/GR cars? 20?, 40? Not exactly the kind of grass roots movement that turns heads. mind you, it turned mine (and I'm thankful to have found like minded individuals). :) But I'm not the nhra.

And part of the class, is telling people it's so simple anybody could make one, including Jethro and his buddies. And you can make it out of old stuff you got laying around. That has liability written all over it.

2 years from now, a guy buys a used HA/GR roller off eBay. He and his buddies pop a 600hp small block in that thing... not knowing that it was designed as a 15 second car... well, you can let your imagination follow that one. He hasn't read the NHRA rules, and it's a dragster... should be just fine.

We're telling the NHRA that we want folks (some of whom are really not qualified to fold a newspaper) to scratch build dragsters out of old shit and we're amazed by the resistance?

I'm starting to feel that half the fun is going to be to get my shit teched and on the track at an nhra event. It is their event, it's only fair you have to play by some of their rules... be honest now.

We've all bluffed our way through tech on a few things. As long as only "I" am the one that's effected by my stupidity, then it's okay. Like an expired seatbelt, etc.

bobw

10-20-2008, 08:11 PM

1. If you Read Ron Golden's thread about his meetings with NHRA you will see that they aren't likely to grant HA/GR's any rules exemptions.
2. Individual dragstrips in Wisconsin, Missouri, Oklahoma and Texas are allowing HA/GR's that don't meet the NHRA roll bar requirements. If you build to the HAMB specs, you might not get to run at your local strip.
3. Some cars are in the 11's. Many more will be in the future.
4. In my humble opinion, the HAMB was not created to be a nostalgia drag race organization. It is much broader than that. There is a group of guys that dug the idea of building Bug-like dragsters and running them. It doesn't matter if it is 10, 100 or 1,000. See Ryan's explaination of the intent and spirit of HA/GR's.
5. Nobody is encouraging anyone to build anything unsafe. The main point of contention is the single roll bar vs the NHRA legal 9.99 second FED & Altered cage, which does damage the look of a HA/GR car. The way you build your car is up to you and how you assess your chances of getting to run it where you want to race.
6. If someone buys a HA/GR roller and stuffs a big engine in it, the dragstrip techs will decide if it meets the 9.99 second requirements. If it does, it runs. If it doesn't it sits. If it goes quicker than 9.99 you get kicked out untill you return with a certified chassis. and an NHRA driver's license.
7. Nobody is telling NHRA anything. Anybody can build anything they want. When you show up at the track the tech guy will decide if you meet rules and if the quality of work merits letting you run. You simply build to the rule book.
8. It is not difficult for the skilled home builder to create a 9.99 second legal FED or Altered that will pass tech. I have. The trick is to retain that Bug-like appearance while having all the necessary bars and hoops. Look at the HA/GR's from Oz. I think some of them are really close to passing NHRA tech.
Ok, now the confession part; I don't have a HA/GR. But I think they are the coolest race cars going. If I didn't already have a drag car and if my retirement nest egg (I'm 67 & retired) hadn't just been decimated, there would be one under construction right now.
I'm a bit put off by the flavor of some of your statements. I waited for several hours for one of the HA/GR owner/builders to respond, but I couldn't wait any longer.
If you want a HA/GR, build one. Don't worry so much about all the other stuff you brought up.

Godzilla

10-20-2008, 09:02 PM

If you want a car build it. If you want a HA/GR you will have one race a year...the HAMB drags to run it without any hassel. If you can get others in your area to build a car you may be able to lobby your local track to be an exhibition class. If you can't be an exhibition class they may let you run test and tune. You have gain their acceptance.

If they are a NHRA track...join NHRA and run the NHRA decal so they will know that you have insurance in case you get hurt in your creation. If want to get a track to let you run a pile of old parts that are stuck together...you better start looking for an outlaw track.

vectorsolid

10-20-2008, 09:28 PM

I'm a bit put off by the flavor of some of your statements. I waited for several hours for one of the HA/GR owner/builders to respond, but I couldn't wait any longer.
If you want a HA/GR, build one. Don't worry so much about all the other stuff you brought up.

I agree with ya. :) But it looks like (for me), part of the fun will be to get a local NHRA inspector to let me run.

I'm not worried about what others think. I'm trying to COMPLETELY understand this, which is impossible really, so I can build, quickly, safely and with the most options. A few minutes worth of typing can eliminate DAYS of doing something incorrectly. ;)

Just need to be sure I can COMPLETELY debate my position if it should come up. If it's something out of the ordinary for them, and it will be, then I stand a better chance of weaseling through tech if I can explain, rationalize it, and support my position.

Never pays to argue with the tech guy, he doesn't look forward to tension either. ;)

64 DODGE 440

10-20-2008, 11:59 PM

Didn't I read that the NHRA doesn't even require a bar in a convertible until it's like 12.50 or something like that. I'm sure you guys have looked at all the angles.

That may or may not be the case, but they look at our cars that may only run 14 or 15 seconds like they are fuel altereds because they are "purpose built" race cars, most with center steering and no rear suspension.

The comment was made to one of our cars owners that if it had rear suspension and a door for entry it wouldn't be a problem with tech. Hard to figure out what difference that makes, just bullshit logic applied to a low tech rail. Hell, my '64 Dodge will probably go quicker and faster than the HA/GR will and it doesn't even need a roll bar by their book.

vectorsolid

10-21-2008, 12:28 AM

The comment was made to one of our cars owners that if it had rear suspension and a door for entry it wouldn't be a problem with tech. Hard to figure out what difference that makes, just bullshit logic applied to a low tech rail. Hell, my '64 Dodge will probably go quicker and faster than the HA/GR will and it doesn't even need a roll bar by their book.

I'm sure this has been discussed to death somewhere, but rather than not be accepted, what are the workarounds? Seems to me if some dude can run a T-bucket (or a convertible) with no roll bar, we should be there to "somehow".

My knowledge of the NHRA rulebook has nothing to do with something like this class.

Do we have a hard list of what exactly are the facts, or does it vary from inspector to inspector?

If you guys could help, I'd like to start a list of what the nhra bitches are, and potential work arounds.

QQMOON

10-21-2008, 01:58 AM

HA/GR Cars are pourpose built race cars and having built several and had a hand in building several others and going to the trouble of getting them teched......

our cars run under HOT ROD but reflect a Altered hence we get away with alot like a six point cage four point point is enough for the speed/ET we are running.....

Once you start pushing the boundries and become a problem to the governing body they will make it that hard you wont be alowed to race them anywhere.

Do as they ask follow the rule book and race

When ANDRA seen what we were doing they shit themselves and scratched their heads but through talking and pointing out what we were all about they came to the party and now we can race at any track Aust wide

QQ

nexxussian

10-21-2008, 04:10 AM

Didn't I read that the NHRA doesn't even require a bar in a convertible until it's like 12.50 or something like that. I'm sure you guys have looked at all the angles.

Something like that, IIRC that's in Ron G's 'Rules Meeting' thread (I'm usre it's elsewhere as well).

moparsled

10-21-2008, 11:15 PM

Vector-
I've read your many questions and comments posted on a slew of threads, and decided to throw a half-a-cent opinion here.

First and foremost- what are you trying to accomplish with your car? That question above any other, will push the direction of your build. I said it before in other threads; Everyone brings their own agenda to the HA/GR. We all focus on an aspect of the class that dominates our own style. Some focus on the dollar, some on the nostalgia, some on the win, some on the look.....what is your focus? You gotta answer that question first- all the rest will fall in place after.

Personally, NHRA be damned, I am trying to build the most period accurate car I can. I want the car within the HA/GR rules, to look like it could have run at Great Bend in '55. (I have added some peronal touches that may or not follow this strictly, but I have my reasons)As mentioned above, this focus pushes my build in it's own direction- A single, big diameter hoop is the ONLY choice for me, for my car. NHRA legal? Not a chance!! I am ok with the possibility that the HAMB drags could be the only place the car gets to run, because for me, if I compromise my build in order to satisfy the NHRA, I missed the point of the class completely, and might as well quit now. Most others will not agree with this point of view- they'll tell you that getting on the track and racing, is worth the compromise and the sacrifice of the vintage look. That's ok. That's their choice. And it's all of ours to make.

And that's my challenge to you- figure out what you're trying to accomplish. Figure out what message you're trying to send. Figure out what the class means to you. All the answers to all your questions will follow.

vectorsolid

10-22-2008, 12:25 AM

Vector-
I've read your many questions and comments posted on a slew of threads, and decided to throw a half-a-cent opinion here.
And that's my challenge to you- figure out what you're trying to accomplish. Figure out what message you're trying to send. Figure out what the class means to you. All the answers to all your questions will follow.

I'm pretty confident in knowing what I want. i just want to make sure I can play with it as often as possible.:)

I like nostalgia, I want to race with my buds, and I want to build it and have fun. I don't care if I win lose or draw. But I would like to race it more than once a year. And it had better be able to smoke 'em in the burnout box.

I'm asking a LOT of questions because I don't want to re-invent the wheel. And I need this to pass tech if I'm gonna get to play. Who better to ask than guys that are getting the thumbs down in tech? ;)

Our track, within the last few days has been IHRA sanctioned. I'm actually going to a board of directors meeting on Thursday to show them what a group of us are planning on building over the winter.

This guy in our town is trying to get himself involved in the tech for the track. I know NHRA and IHRA Sport Compact rules, not wherever the HA/GR comes in. And this other guy isn't a fabricator, and doesn't know cromoly from plastic... Yet he's telling me "How it's gonna be". But he doesn't know shit. I need to let these guys know, ahead of time, that our group are serious fabricators, and we know the rules and are building to spec, so that when we show up in the spring we don't surprise anybody.

I think there is always some 'wiggle room' with tech guys. Get yourself on their good side. At our track the guy that typically stands in the staging lanes and organizes who races, has a local business and is a super nice guy. For a laugh I had some stickers made for my windshield that said his business kicks ass!!! He came over to my car and while chuckling, said what's THAT about? I told him I figure if I kiss up to the race organizer I might get more track time. :) He laughed his ass off and now when I'm in the staging lanes smiling like a Cheshire cat, he looks over and laughs and shakes his head. Long story short... I want that for the HA/GR cars.

There are the folks that insist that the NHRA be damned, here's the old school way! I think both can happen (at least for my group). but what are the concessions?

What do I need to give up to breeze through tech? Few cage bars? Not a problem. Perhaps rear suspension? no big deal. Maybe little bitty doors that you can barely see? So what. What's the Exact definition of a "roof" that makes you a convertible? and changes cage rules. I don't know yet.

I don't want to fight, I want to build and race. :D

QQMOON

10-22-2008, 01:04 AM

Build it........ rough it out......... show them...... get their feedback and progress

The only way to prgress is to do it and worry about the smaller things later

QQ

Drewfus

10-22-2008, 01:49 AM

Build it........ rough it out......... show them...... get their feedback and progress

The only way to prgress is to do it and worry about the smaller things later

QQ

Note: see above, keep level headed, work with them (remember these guys are passionate about racing as well), and be 'constructive', not a thorn in their side.

Cheers,

Drewfus

vectorsolid

10-22-2008, 02:11 AM

Note: see above, keep level headed, work with them (remember these guys are passionate about racing as well), and be 'constructive', not a thorn in their side.

Cheers,

Drewfus

Mind you, other than building to meet the 9.99 or slower dragster rule, I haven't seen anybody mention just what pieces of the car can be changed to require less stringent standards.

What are we up against that we can change to meet slower, less stringent rules?

Drewfus

10-22-2008, 02:48 AM

what would you like to change? the main elements that are 'pushed' are the safety elements, things like cage, firesuit, arm restraints, helmet, harness, quality welding, and common sense stuff like covering the battery, having a plate over the clutch area, electrical shut off, funtional brakes, having shock absorbers on suspension, steering thats without 'play' and tailshaft loops.....nothing crazy or difficult there, what's the problem?

If peoples biggest issue stoping their building and racing is a second hoop protecting the driver, and any of the above, then they should stick to talking about the weather.

Get your friends involve, build a few cars (yes, it WILL take longer than a weekend, that's why getting your friends invloved make the experience more enjoyable), go race each other, and have fun.

Cheers,

Drewfus

vectorsolid

10-22-2008, 03:17 AM

what would you like to change?

I have no idea. I'm not having trouble with getting through nhra tech. :)

I want to know what the nhra wants to see the most, and get that handled. Perhaps sounds harder than it is.

Whatever got some dudes booted for not meeting tech, or got them in, but with some overdone 9.99 upgrades on a 15 second car.

Something isn't right. Why meet 9.99 rules that aren't pertinent to a 15 second car. why do they want to see that? Is there a workaround.

That's all. :)

64 DODGE 440

10-22-2008, 08:47 AM

Something isn't right. Why meet 9.99 rules that aren't pertinent to a 15 second car. why do they want to see that?

That is the whole point. They don't understand the concept of the cars and try and tech them like fuel altereds. These cars ain't rocket science.

bobw

10-22-2008, 09:58 AM

Here's the deal as I understand it and have experienced it: You can drag race cars with roofs and doors. Slow ones, like your mother's Rambler don't need many safety items. As your door car goes faster and faster, more safety items are needed. I.E. a roll bar, then a roll cage, a seat belt, then a harness. And so on.
If you have a purpose built drag car like a FED or Altered, or HA/GR, the jumping off point is you must be equipped to run up as quick as 9.99. If your car is quicker you need a certified chassis built to SFI specs. Slower than 9.99 you build to the NHRA rule book. There is no relaxation of the requirements if your FED, Altered or HA/GR is only capable of running 12's, 15's or a half hour e.t. This is my understanding of the rule book. Your experience at a drag strip near you may differ.

Old6rodder

10-22-2008, 12:10 PM

Excellent encapsulation of it bobw.

I'd add only that at the time our HA/GR rules were formalized NHRA had a second "break" for dedicated cars at 11.99 that we built in accordance with, hence the 12 sec "cap" targeted by the class. NHRA then changed their rules application, thus moving us into their 10 sec "cap" and requiring more expensive considerations.

We first ran with fire jackets & buckets, single hoop roll bars, etc.
Now it's full suits & collars, cages, etc.

And yes, some of the first builders are (quite understandably) a tad miffed at what appears a stone thrown at us. The fact that it affects other (already extant) classes as annoyingly serves only to irritate them as well and does little to soften anybody's ire.

In short, we were unfortunate in starting a new class just before NHRA rules were changed.

There are some who feel it was "personal" to an extent, and not just HA/GR owners.

vectorsolid

10-22-2008, 04:18 PM

Ah, so there really is no work around? So, the problem is that it's a purpose built race car, they changed the rules so there is no 11.99 cap and we need to build to 9.99 spec.

Will any amount of doors or suspension or roof, driver location, change any of this? Something is putting the car there. And something can take it out of the 9.99 build zone. Can't it?

We're talking "spirit" here. For somebody that's handy with the nhra rule book, and assuming that it's gonna change the look of the car, what could be done to make the build less stringent? If there are rules that say a convertible doesn't even need a bar unless it's faster than 13.49, there's got to be something.

Doesn't it seem as though you could show up with a 13.50 sec fiberglass T-bucket with no roll bar and only a lap belt and get through tech?

If there is no class for the car, and it's an ET bracket machine, you would think that all we had to do was meet the rules for that speed.

I'm sorry for being a dumbass on this, I'm just trying to wrap around the "you gotta be kidding me" factor that you guys are already familiar with.

AND, I need to be about as wrapped around this as humanly possible by tomorrow night when I need to talk (as knowledgeably as possible) about them at our monthly track meeting.

Old6rodder

10-22-2008, 06:05 PM

Ah, so there really is no work around? So, the problem is that it's a purpose built race car, they changed the rules so there is no 11.99 cap and we need to build to 9.99 spec.

Or to put it in the correct frame of reference, they're moving more and more classes further up the "safety requirements" ladder in their ongoing attempts to make drag racing lawyer-proof and ensure their profits.

I'll try to keep the following rant short ..........

I'll need to preface my next points with the fact that NHRA is a corporate entity and thus has the primary goals of all entities. First and foremost; to survive, second; to prosper, third; to solidify and safeguard the first two.

So in effect their goal is "Dragsneyland", with it's attendant safegaurded income. That it's not physically possible outside a theme park setting is reflected in their attempted disclaimers, but that won't stop'em from continuing to ruin our sport in the effort. Over the last forty+ years they've developed a taste for the money.

In that television is money they court it and willfully change wahtever's needed to accomodate it. Television doesn't give a rusty fuck about drag racing outside of it's audience appeal aspects. NHRA has proven perfectly willing to write off the origins of our sport in their sucking at the TV tit.

In that edeavour they've elected to rubber-bumper drag racing to the best of their capabilities. This has drawn into our sport a segment of the populace consistent with the thinking that drag racing could, and should become nothing more than a thrill ride safe enough for grandma and the rug rats to go on (one day they'll need to do something about all that annoying noise too ..... think I'm kidding?).

Our present hobbling is no more than the next step on that continuing journey.

And here, my response to that:
I for one will continue to do what I can to pursue, enjoy and further the original aspects of what drag racing was, and can still be. I'll stand firmly with others of like mind and actions. I'll do what I can to help NHRA see the value of maintaining real life connections with drag racing's roots outside of museum halls ..... but ..... if need be I'll work to see these aspects of our sport kept alive in theaters other than NHRA.

All things considered, that WAS fairly short. :rolleyes:

64 DODGE 440

10-22-2008, 06:26 PM

And here, my response to that:
I for one will continue to do what I can to pursue, enjoy and further the original aspects of what drag racing was, and can still be. I'll stand firmly with others of like mind and actions. I'll do what I can to help NHRA see the value of maintaining real life connections with drag racing's roots outside of museum halls ..... but ..... if need be I'll work to see these aspects of our sport kept alive in theaters other than NHRA.

Well put Old6, we're with you on that.:cool:

Amazingly short rant all things considered.:p

348chevy

10-22-2008, 07:23 PM

Old 6 has the handle on the situation. Back when Wally Parks was just forming NHRA every drag strip was running with the idea to keep drag racing off the street. When he started the safety safari the primary goal was to make sure all strips were putting safety at the forefront. Somewhere along the line he saw how Bill France was making money hand over fist with NASCAR and I think that safety fell off and began to be dragged behind the bus. The primary goal became making Wally and his friends millionaires. The thought of making this a sport that can be enjoyed by the masses has left NHRA about 40 years ago. Look at circle track racing, it has left NASCAR to suck hind tit and the masses can race their cars and not be completely bankrupt in doing so. You have the touring clowns of NASCAR and the touring clowns of NHRA they neither care for nor want anyone who is not of the clubs playing. You have 2 or 3 people who field several cars with drivers and as Don Garlits said up in KC the track and the owners look at the drivers as something expendable, The idea is that the owners make money and the organizations make billions of dollars. They don't care whether we or anyone else wants to run our cars only if they can make money. WE are not worth any TV time so we don't make them money. The common people, the working stiffs love our cars but they and us don't put enough money in NHRA coffers. The rules I think will get stiffer and stiffer until you have only the classes that run on TV at NHRA strips. The strip owners like the dollars that having a national event generate so they bow down to the NHRA alter. :( I've said enough. Roy

bobw

10-22-2008, 08:07 PM

I agree that NHRA has big eyes toward making money. But there are about 30 national events a year held at 29 different drag strips. What you don't see on TV are the 400 other racers at the event. There are about 20 dragstrips in Tennessee alone. That means to me that lots of drag strips are depending on the Joe six-pack drag racer. The kind that race cars that don't draw tens of thousands of spectators, but rather family, friends and crew members are in the stands. My take is that with NHRA being the main sanctioning body, the strips sign up for rules consistency and the resulting level of safety it brings. Also, there is probably group liability insurance which would be very important. I think the crash history along with personal injury analysis is what has created the rules that exist today. Since the bulk of the racers at any local strip are Camaros, Novas and Mustangs that run anywhere from the high 10's to the 13's and seldom crash, that's what the strip operators are comfortable with. Show up with a unique race car like a HA/GR and they are going to be sure they aren't exposing themselves to any unnecessary liability.

vectorsolid

10-22-2008, 08:47 PM

Television doesn't give a rusty fuck about drag racing outside of it's audience appeal aspects. NHRA has proven perfectly willing to write off the origins of our sport in their sucking at the TV tit.

It's so hard to read when you sugar coat it like that. :p

I agree with the last 3 posters. And that the Joe 6-packs are still out there keeping the small tracks alive.

Sadly, in my attempts over the last few days, I've already come up with one thing that doesn't help when explaining it to "tech" and "Safety people". Turns out, "Hokey Ass" does not make a good first impression...:eek::D

Hokey-Ass gets a chuckle from my buddies... not from the track guys I've talked to. The one official I was talking to that lives here used the phrase "hokey-ass" with much sarcasm in his tone. As in, "..we don't need any "hokey-ass" shit at on the track..." Which normally is a pretty acceptable position for safety and tech personnel. Don't kill the messenger, I'm just telling you what happened to me today.

I'm kind of convinced that the best way for me to sell this locally and promote the "old school", and get through tech is to call it V/GR, where the V could stand for something less awkward... like Vagina, or something.

And then base it around the HA/GR rules. Tomorrow I'm going to a tack meeting with their officials. So I'm doing what I can to wrap around it now.

Whatever you (anybody here) know about legality and passing tech with an HA/GR, even if it changes the class a smidge, I need to know. Tomorrow seals the deal for yes or no for our IHRA track. And I'm the idiot doing the show and tell.

Some of the best frame pictures I found have come from Drewfus. I feel the frame thing will help show safety. If you have the kind of picture of the frame that you could almost send to an inspector to show "good faith" building abilities and safety. Pop 'em on here.

Rand Man

10-22-2008, 09:04 PM

vectorsolid

10-22-2008, 09:07 PM

I think I have everybody's pictures on file that I could find on here. Even these pics here didn't come from Drewus' build thread, he PM'd to me.

I need pics like this, to show safety and build at my meeting. the more the better. Something that shows that my group is concerned about tech. I don't want to surprise these people. I want to work with them. Working with them gets me track time.

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/2424/021007chassisrepainthr0.jpg

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/5176/021007chassisrepaint2mw6.jpg

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/3843/net031206181nf9.jpg

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/8682/021007chassisrepaint6xp8.jpg

vectorsolid

10-22-2008, 09:08 PM

We know what the letters H.A.M.B stand-for, but we don't throw the term "Hokey-Ass" around all the time.

But it does get thrown around. ;)

QQMOON

10-22-2008, 09:18 PM

But it does get thrown around. ;)

Well you had better start educating them diferently.........

HAMB GAS RAIL .........

QQ

Ryan

10-22-2008, 10:20 PM

And you better forget about the NHRA... That's not what this thing is about.

vectorsolid

10-22-2008, 10:32 PM

And you better forget about the NHRA... That's not what this thing is about.

How are we supposed to "spread the word" if nobody see's ya?

Do you mean forget the nhra, it'll never happen, or do you mean forget about the nhra because WE DON'T want it to happen?

I will add that the hamb folks that have weighed in on the rules are all about the "do it your way", "the rules are a guidline", "It's all about the spirit", etc. Well, I need it to get through nhra and ihra tech. That's how my way has to be. :o I have 5 drag cars now... and can only haul 3 at any given time. I don't need a car that I absolutely can't use and takes up space I can't afford. If I can get it passed and legal where we race, I can see it taking up space on the trailer. If not, I'll build it anyway... and hang it on the wall. I just want to build one and have fun. :) But it would seem logical to try and get it to the track, can't spread the word from the garage...

So, based on that. Who here can give me some ideas on how to get a car like the one in the pic below, to get cleanly and easily through tech.

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/3843/net031206181nf9.jpg

Ryan

10-22-2008, 11:31 PM

vectorsolid

10-22-2008, 11:47 PM

It's simply not going to happen. These cars do not meet NHRA specs... I think you need to come to the HAMB drags and check this thing out before you get to deep in it man. It would be well worth your time.

Totally appreciate your time. :)

I don't know about in to deep though. That ship sailed about 25 years ago. :) I'll take some pictures some time. Any one of you shows them to my wife and I'll kick your asses... ...lol... :D

There it is again, "these cars do not meet NHRA specs". I get it, they don't meet it. Given that it would change the car and the spirit, what needs to be changed? I'm telling you I want to build a car, "like" the HA/GR cars. It fits me in every way. I want to get it through tech at NHRA and IHRA events. Pretend your an nhra inspector looking over my ha/gr car. my ha/gr car is like 99% of them... You don't want me to run it... Why is that? tell me what to fix and then bring it back.

You're the tech inspector, tell me what mechanical issues need to be addressed to put my car on the track.

QQMOON

10-22-2008, 11:55 PM

Totally appreciate your time. :)

I don't know about in to deep though. That ship sailed about 25 years ago. :) I'll take some pictures some time. Any one of you shows them to my wife and I'll kick your asses... ...lol... :D

There it is again, "these cars do not meet NHRA specs". I get it, they don't meet it. Given that it would change the car and the spirit, what needs to be changed? I'm telling you I want to build a car, "like" the HA/GR cars. It fits me in every way. I want to get it through tech at NHRA and IHRA events. Pretend your an nhra inspector looking over my ha/gr car. my ha/gr car is like 99% of them... You don't want me to run it... Why is that? tell me what to fix and then bring it back.

You're the tech inspector, tell me what mechanical issues need to be addressed to put my car on the track.

You Just answered your question build it (did Noah know what an Ark was?) you will soon find out what you need...........

QQ

bobw

10-23-2008, 12:17 AM

Toymaker

10-23-2008, 12:53 AM

They are not called "Hokey Ass" Gas Rails. Someone posted "Hokey Ass" as a response to the the question: "What does HA/GR stand-for?". That was a joke.

Nobody invovled in this deal refers to their rails as a "Hokey Assed" Rail. "HA" stands for HAMB. We know what the letters H.A.M.B stand-for, but we don't throw the term "Hokey-Ass" around all the time.

I do! Break it down Hokey Ass Message Board, are we getting politically correct now? I'm not trying to impress anybody, I enjoy our car, most the people who check it out dig it too and we let our fabrication skills speak for them-selves. Rocky

moparsled

10-23-2008, 01:50 AM

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh179/rwstillwater/GSR_1866.jpg
This altered passes NHRA tech. to 9.99. If you took this chassis, stretched it a bit, replaced the Bantam body with a dragster aluminum wrap, put a full width rear end in it, a flathead or inline engine, a stick transmission and the other safety items specified in the rulebook, and which most current HA/GR's have (scatter shields, arm restraints, etc) you can have a NHRA legal dragster that resembles a HA/GR car. It is primarily the roll cage that takes it out of the HA/GR esthetic. So, build a faithful HA/GR car and run it if you can, hang it on the wall if you can't (you can always take it to the strips where HA/GR cars are currently accepted) or build an NHRA legal HA/GR-style car that looks wrong in the cage area. As far as I can see, those are the choices.

BobW is 100% correct. The answer you want us to give you, to the question you will keep asking until someone gives you the answer you want to hear, is that you need to build an NHRA blueprinted car with an old engine. Take the NHRA cage pic, move the rear axle behind the driver, and don't narrow the axles. VOILA !!! NHRA sterilized HA/GR. Misses the spirit of the class by a country mile.

vectorsolid

10-23-2008, 02:28 AM

This altered passes NHRA tech. to 9.99. If you took this chassis, stretched it a bit, replaced the Bantam body with a dragster aluminum wrap, put a full width rear end in it, a flathead or inline engine, a stick transmission and the other safety items specified in the rulebook, and which most current HA/GR's have (scatter shields, arm restraints, etc) you can have a NHRA legal dragster that resembles a HA/GR car. It is primarily the roll cage that takes it out of the HA/GR esthetic. So, build a faithful HA/GR car and run it if you can, hang it on the wall if you can't (you can always take it to the strips where HA/GR cars are currently accepted) or build an NHRA legal HA/GR-style car that looks wrong in the cage area. As far as I can see, those are the choices.

Perfect. Thanks for the information. :)

So, as best I understand it, the only gripe through all this crapola between the NHRA and the HA/GR car is that the NHRA wants to see more cage... THAT'S IT? :confused:

Do you (means anybody) want to spread the word by sitting around the garage with a car you can't run, or by going to the track? Me, I want to go to the track.

I think I know where I need to go with our group. And hopefully this will help a few others that were wondering the same thing. And I'm not going in there to debate how little cage it takes to run a 15.35, We're gonna tell them our crew is building 15 second nostalgia gas rails, and were building them to a 9.99 spec. Sounds like that should get it.

Some of you guys have to much sand in your vagina's... ...lol... :D

have a sense of humor, that's funny, I don't care who ya are.

vectorsolid

10-23-2008, 02:30 AM

I enjoy our car, most the people who check it out dig it too and we let our fabrication skills speak for them-selves. Rocky

Amen brother.

vectorsolid

10-23-2008, 03:00 AM

Just got a note back from one of the NHRA guys. I decided not to post which one, because he's friendly. Friendly is good, and we don't need to be dragging some poor dude into a battle he didn't ask for.

Here's EXACTLY what I sent him, these 2 pictures, (which also included the HA/GR rules, I didn't repost them here to save space), and here is what he what he wrote.

In my note to him, I embellished a few things for the sake of making the story easier for the guy who couldn't care less about the story. I had to guess on a lot of this crap, I didn't exactly get a lot of help with it and I've been an HA/GR enthusiast for what now, 6 days? So my knowledge base is shallow.

(the answer)

Hi,

The first thing that comes to mind is the chassis itself. Even though it does not run that quick it still must meet some minimum criteria.

Based on the design it would be classed as an “altered” chassis. As such, the illustration/s for what is required is detailed on page 82 of the 2008 NHRA Rule Book which includes vehicles with an altered chassis running 10.00 and slower. Other specific details are outlined on pages 77 through 84.

As far as the other safety requirements they would be based on the E.T. and/or MPH performance of the car.

Have a look at the rule book with regards to these chassis requirements and then let me know if you have any further questions.

Sincerely,

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/5176/021007chassisrepaint2mw6.jpg

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/3843/net031206181nf9.jpg

(Here's exactly what I wrote, some of the protests I wrote were from initial reactions from our LOCAL track people, so that's what I asked.)

Not sure if you're the right guy, if not, feel free to point me elsewhere.

I want to ET bracket race this car at NHRA tracks in our region. It runs low 15's at around 85mph. None of these in our group runs faster than 14.0

There are those in our group that feel that a convertible or T-bucket doesn't need anything, just a lap belt, no roll bar to 13.50 so it should pass tech effortlessly based on that principal. There are those in our group that feel it's a dragster or altered and it should meet the spec of a 9.99 dragster. Even though it's built along the lines of a T-bucket, but narrower and with a decent cage (and it's slower). Can you offer up any opinions or ideas. We are trying to keep them more vintage looking. But want to come and play with the rest of the boys when it's ET bracket racing time. :) Locally, it's confusing people, and we could use some direction.

Thanks for your time. See you at the track. :)
------------

Toymaker

10-23-2008, 03:11 AM

Toymaker

10-23-2008, 03:14 AM

I had too go back to my thread and see if our car missed the spirit...........Now I Dunno! Let's not let this "Spirit" thing HURT or KILL someone!

vectorsolid

10-23-2008, 03:19 AM

I had too go back to my thread and see if our car missed the spirit...........Now I Dunno!

I think you're on target. Well, other than WTF were you thinking with a ford? :D

vectorsolid

10-23-2008, 03:23 AM

Vector, don't kid yourself, once you get it built you'll want to get in the 12's so bad you'll taste it.........we do:D My son drives ours and when it starts haulin' a$$ I'll appreciate the NHRA Cage we choose (OK Forced) to put on. IMO the "Spirit" is to build it with what you got and can do yourself. Me thinks you can build a 5 point cage:cool: Rocky

You know, I think I can control the urge. I've got a Honda Civic I'm trying to get in the 9's, and that's using up all my time (dyno'd 613 at the wheels). I'm truly looking forward to building some nostalgia and having fun with my buds with the slowest cars out there.

I say that now... ;)

you know I'll be PM'ing ya in about 6 months like a crackhead looking for a fix, "...c'mon man, seriously help me out, I'm stuck at 13.1... HELP ME, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!!!..." ...lol...

Toymaker

10-23-2008, 03:23 AM

I like a challenge:D

Toymaker

10-23-2008, 03:26 AM

I say that now... ;)

you know I'll be PM'ing ya in about 6 months like a crackhead looking for a fix, "...c'mon man, seriously help me out, I'm stuck at 13.1... HELP ME, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!!!..." ...lol...
That's the Racer talking now!

vectorsolid

10-23-2008, 03:42 AM

That's the Racer talking now!

I think we'll be okay, lot's of friends helping friends with builds, and racing friends at the track. Our heads are in the right spot. None of that petty crap at the track is ever worth losing a friend over.

We're the guys at the track that laugh at the dude you see in the tower shaking his time slip at somebody...

I took home 3rd place money in Sportsman at an NHRA Wally race we had a few weeks ago. Damn proud of that in manual transmission car to top it all off. I go up to the tower to collect my money... I'm thinking about how many racers we had, and how many rounds I went and my $50 entry fee. I'm thinking I must have won $10-$15k in cash (you know poorly a racers mind does math when it has to do with money, in or out). I get up there, take a few pictures and they hand me my winnings... 75 bux cash money.

Reminded me, once again, that the fun is where it's at. keep it fun, and hope for something good to tease your buddies about on the ride home. :)

I threw that $75 bux in the kitty at the pizza joint that night and that was that. damn good pizza too.

348chevy

10-23-2008, 09:00 AM

Vector, most of us in this class like to race. I started racing in 1956 with a flathead powered 40 Ford. I raced until 1964 when I started having kids and they took all my money to feed them. But from the get go it is the race. If you can run fast you run races, if you ride bicycles you race, if you ride motorcycles you race. Now there are people who do all these things and don't race. We who have that competitive fever always come back to the race. I built a few cars over the years and always put performance into them but only raced them a few times. As I'm getting into years I figure I have one more shot at the glory years of the 50's and 60's in drag racing. That's why I built a HA/GR was to race. I don't want to hang it on the wall to look at or make yard art out of it. I want to run the car against like cars in heads up racing. I have went from 14's at 92 mph to high 11's at 117mph this year. I probably won't get much faster but it is the race that drives me. I get excited when I get to the race track and the adreniline flows hot when I'm coming to the starting line. The guy next to me might be my best friend but I want blow him away when I come to the starting line. I will do what ever it takes to make my car be accepted at the track. The HAMB drags are great but they are only one time a year. That is like having sex one time a year.:D Roy

vectorsolid

10-23-2008, 10:41 AM

moparsled

10-23-2008, 11:06 AM

I had too go back to my thread and see if our car missed the spirit...........Now I Dunno! Let's not let this "Spirit" thing HURT or KILL someone!

Dammit! I became "THAT" guy on this thread. Not my intention. Not my intention to call you out on your car either. You built what you had to to get on the tracks you run. That's what Vector wants too. I get that. BUT-- look at the cars/cages/chassis in those pics on my previous post- they in no way represent 50's drag racing. The ORIGINAL intent of the class was to represent early racing at a specific venue. Everything else has come after.

jeff/21

10-23-2008, 12:09 PM

the tracks are just to protect themselves if A.J.Foyt showed at a world of outlaws race with a car he ran in the day he would have to up-date his equipment with all the safety equipment fire suit no tee shirts safety belts and even a wing. everyone has to make concessions if you want to race and it's to protect some people from them self

vectorsolid

10-23-2008, 12:35 PM

Dammit! I became "THAT" guy on this thread. Not my intention. Not my intention to call you out on your car either. You built what you had to to get on the tracks you run. That's what Vector wants too. I get that. BUT-- look at the cars/cages/chassis in those pics on my previous post- they in no way represent 50's drag racing. The ORIGINAL intent of the class was to represent early racing at a specific venue. Everything else has come after.

I think you have to take that "represent early racing at a specific venue" with a grain of salt. If you read all of the stuff, the early stuff points to people wanting to make "grass roots movement" out of it. That means more than one venue.

Build cars, spread the word, etc. We're not even spreading the word well on this very forum. There was a thread about 90 days ago where people on here were talking about how they didn't even know this was going on... on the very forum they hang out at.

Even the acronym HA/GR has about 4 different "de-codings" depending on who you read it from.

I feel that even if I've missed the mark by a small amount and made ours safer, that it will still "reflect" that period and bring attention to it more than anything else at our track. Remember, it's the "spirit of it", that seems to be important, not the exact execution in a cookie cutter fashion. One extra piece of roll bar isn't a deal breaker for me.

I suspect if I find myself in the pits explaining the car, I can say something like, "...This is how they did it in the 50's, with the exception of we added this extra piece on the roll bar for safety..." Who'd begrudge a man for that? Or even care?

they may not be cookie cutter representations of 50's cars to the highly informed and discriminating few. But they likely will pass as EXACT 50's replicas to 999 out of 1000 people at the track. And that spreads the word and keeps it alive.

How much of a purist are all of the cars? You know we didn't have vinyl lettering in the 50's either. Nor was powder coating going on. Who's gas welded their chassis together? We should be building these via mail... not email. I think the real goal is to make the effort.:)

I don't know that a person can get their undies in a bunch when somebody doesn't quite build it the way that somebody else feels it should have been. Especially when the rules are called a "guideline" and it was built within the spirit and the vehicles goal is to bring back some memories from the past.

I think a few of you were right when I read things like, "you just don't get it". For me, I think that was accurate. I really didn't get it. When I finally got it, it wasn't about doing it entirely the way people thought. I was trying to figure out how to make your cars... I needed to figure out how to make MY car using your rules. Guess what, my interpretation is similar to, but not identical to some of the others. And when you stress fighting the cookie cutter designs, that's EXACTLY what's going to happen.

We don't have to be on the same page to enjoy reading the same book. ;)

348chevy

10-23-2008, 12:43 PM

This is what they ran in the 50's. If we have a few more bars on the cage it is still the best we can do. The limiting factor is the engines, the carbs and most of all the tires. Nobody is going to get much faster than what some of us have run this year. I raced a flathead powered rail that would be like an HA/GR but the rollbar hit about the middle of my head. The BUG had no conceivable rollbar. I still think if you compare what the HA/GR's that are running today to the 50's cars they do a good job of bringing back the old days. And we can run them all year long. I would not invest $2000 in a car that I can only go to run one race. I have more than that in this car, I paid more than that for the chassis. :):)Roy

vectorsolid

10-23-2008, 01:28 PM

348 chevy, Cool stuff!

I just got off the phone with one of our machine shop buddies. He said one of the board members at the track got wind of our little dragsters and is planning on shutting us down at tonight's meeting.

I'm one prepared mutha, let me tell ya. Gonna be a good time. I know this guy, know his style, and know what his gripe is already. Simple fact is, if the car is built right, passes nhra and ihra tech, and meets every safety standard, there is no logical reason not to let them run. and I'm planning for il-logical arguments to be safe.

I know everybody at this meeting, and everybody knows everybody else. lot's of friends here, lot's of common sense and one or two douche bags that feel they are powerful and should be in charge, but aren't. in fact the one guy that's bitching the most is what we call a "time-slip waver". He's not against chewing out the timing dudes for his own stupidity.

I'm not asking these guys for permission, I'm just letting them know what's going on, and what we plan to bring NHRA/IHRA legal cars to the track in the spring. Nobody else with a legal car is there asking for permission. ;)

mudflap261

10-23-2008, 01:34 PM

In the september 2006 goodguys gazette page 87 is a article about hornets and ramrods . The first two ha/gr cars on the planet.maybe one of you computer smarts could put the article on beccause i sure dont know how, of the three first cars built the hornet/ramrods/speed merchants only the hornet remains in competition

Old6rodder

10-23-2008, 02:38 PM

Vector,

Good luck on your "meeting" (read fight ;)) and know that, in agreement with your specifics or not, most folks here're pulling for another HA/GR venue to open and more cars to be built.

And if it must be HA/GR cum bracket altered for now, trust that it'll do for now and still be a bucket o' fun. Left coasters do understand, as the ANDRA boys did.

Give'em hell.

vectorsolid

10-23-2008, 04:00 PM

Vector,

Good luck on your "meeting" (read fight ) and know that, in agreement with your specifics or not, most folks here're pulling for another HA/GR venue to open and more cars to be built.

Give'em hell.

And there you have it, the real goal. Rodders coming together for a common cause and supporting each other.

Now were on the right track. :)

REJ

10-23-2008, 06:24 PM

I have run my car at a NHRA track and got through tech with the single hoop roll bar. It was a pain in the ass, but I got through.
I run the thing at the track several times a year, but have more fun at an outlaw track that is closer. They are much more receptive to the car than the NHRA track.
Robert

Toymaker

10-24-2008, 12:38 AM

vectorsolid

10-24-2008, 01:47 AM

Well, it was a little anti-climatic. I didn't have to make a talk, bitch, moan, complain or stomp my feet. I was showing stuff around, few guys from the track thought it looked cool. They asked if they met tech. I said, yea, they do... "can't wait to see 'em" and that was that.

I was kinda looking forward to a debate to be honest with ya. :)

So, our version of HA/GR cars are green lit. One of the guys from the track has a 235 he's trying to shoot me a deal on... :D

Guess we're on track to have some fun this spring.

Old6rodder

10-24-2008, 03:26 AM

It's always embarassing to be in full horse and realize there's no fight ('course for me it's also due to no longer being able to get out of it). :o

Sounds good. Now get some builds going. :D

10-24-2008, 04:22 AM

Old6rodder

10-24-2008, 01:25 PM

You know, I THOUGHT I'd been seeing more black helicopters lately. ;)
(peers about furtively)

vectorsolid

10-24-2008, 03:52 PM

They didn't need to argue, they had already seen the whole debate here.......... NHRA is watching:eek:.

...lol... Not in my little part of the world they ain't. Common sense won out. Are they legal? yep, here's a few examples. Yep, looks good, can't wait to see 'em in the spring.

I guess it's like old6rodder was saying, I was ready for a fight and what I met was common sense... Where's the fun in that. :p

moparsled

10-24-2008, 09:54 PM

I apoligize for singling you out 'sled, I just think we discourage some from building a car by not accepting a full cage car as a HAMB Dragster. The BUG didn't even have a roll bar, the beauty of a HAMB/GR is you build it yourself with what you and some friends have. Rocky

And it's NEVER my intention to discourage ANYONE from building their car to their vision, or to their needs, or whatever. It IS my intention to be a mouthy pain in the butt...if I can get you to think!!! If you, or Vectorsolid, or any of the other guys read one of my comments and stop, and think "well, shit, did I stray too far from the concept?....nah, he's just a dick." then I've done my job.

I hate that anybody building one of these has to compromise anything in their build to please someone else, but, sometimes that's the way it goes. Tell me the truth-- your two hoop cage wasn't your first choice, was it?

I thought it odd that Vectorsolid referred to closely copying cars of the day "cookie cutter", and that modern builds were not. I see more variety in the cars of yesterday than I do today.

64 DODGE 440

10-25-2008, 12:41 AM

And it's NEVER my intention to discourage ANYONE from building their car to their vision, or to their needs, or whatever. It IS my intention to be a mouthy pain in the butt...if I can get you to think!!! If you, or Vectorsolid, or any of the other guys read one of my comments and stop, and think "well, shit, did I stray too far from the concept?....nah, he's just a dick." then I've done my job.

I hate that anybody building one of these has to compromise anything in their build to please someone else, but, sometimes that's the way it goes. Tell me the truth-- your two hoop cage wasn't your first choice, was it?

I thought it odd that Vectorsolid referred to closely copying cars of the day "cookie cutter", and that modern builds were not. I see more variety in the cars of yesterday than I do today.

Hang in there 'sled, I have my own vision and I'm trying to add to the variety.:cool:

Must be a thing with us Mopar guys.:p

vectorsolid

10-25-2008, 04:04 AM

I thought it odd that Vectorsolid referred to closely copying cars of the day "cookie cutter", and that modern builds were not. I see more variety in the cars of yesterday than I do today.

that was my way of poking back a bit for fun. :D

If you think about it, there is a group that wants to keep them the same with a single roll bar. All the same = "cookie cutter". ;)

It's a stretch, I'm just being difficult for the sake of a good argument. :p

Ryan

10-25-2008, 07:49 AM

The single hoop roll bar rules.

vectorsolid

10-25-2008, 06:17 PM

The single hoop roll bar rules.

I even agree with ya. :)

FiddyFour

10-26-2008, 12:33 PM

...lol... Not in my little part of the world they ain't.

better re-think that statement if you want to include this message board as your "little part of the world". . .

NHRA does indeed watch this place, and they watch it well. specially after all the meetings with some of the members here, meetings with Ryan, meetings with tracks that are currently NHRA sanctioned and allowing our cars to run... they watch VERY CLOSE.

if you think you have something you can slip past NHRA at your local track with one of these cars, dont talk about it too openly here... you might find the local tech guy just friggin waiting for you on saturday, with a mile wide grin on his face.

moparsled

10-26-2008, 01:39 PM

I hate that anybody building one of these has to compromise anything in their build to please someone else, but, sometimes that's the way it goes. Tell me the truth-- your two hoop cage wasn't your first choice, was it?

I'd like to add to the above, that I've done it too- I'd rather pushstart the car and run a magneto, and I wanted to run a narrowed banjo with Merc axles, but instead I'm running an uncut Dana 44. Not trying to open up a rules debate, I support them as-is. Just saying, evrybody has a different level of compromise.

vectorsolid

10-26-2008, 03:17 PM

better re-think that statement if you want to include this message board as your "little part of the world". . .

NHRA does indeed watch this place, and they watch it well. specially after all the meetings with some of the members here, meetings with Ryan, meetings with tracks that are currently NHRA sanctioned and allowing our cars to run... they watch VERY CLOSE.

if you think you have something you can slip past NHRA at your local track with one of these cars, dont talk about it too openly here... you might find the local tech guy just friggin waiting for you on saturday, with a mile wide grin on his face.

If you felt that I was trying to slough something by tech, I apologize. I would not do that (at least on purpose). Nor would I ever recommend that. I'm among the small group here that wants to build to an NHRA spec. even if it does take away from the look of the car.

I was just saying that we have a small group, and it's not likely they are here. No impropriety intended, more of a small town humor kind of thing. Mind you, as we get building, it's possible they will show up here. And that's great! I've already had meetings and talks with our tech folks, they know that the cage needs to be a 10.0 cage to be considered a LEGAL dragster (altered). I told them so, and that's what we're building. I don't want to risk my neck, or somebody else's by under building for the sake of the "look" of the car.

I pride myself on making it through tech and being a good example. Never had a tech guy gripe about anything on any car in over 30 years. I came to race, not get put on the trailer for being stupid. :) Never an excuse for an ET bracket car to try stupid things.

I've got an issue coming up with another car. I'm finally running in the 135mph range. Didn't need a certified cage before, my ET isn't low enough, but I mile-an-hour high. rather than be all shady and run right at that figuring nobody is really noticing as I'm not running in the 9's, I'm getting the cage certified in the spring and getting my licence. Not that big a deal. I built way past the rules when I started. Didn't put in a bar, I caged it right away. It's important.

Just like the HA/GR car. For me, I need to do some overbuilding, I have to far to tow to be told to pack it up and go home. And if my wife were to get in the car (never happen) I'd want to feel confident about it's safety.

I'm asking on this thread because I don't want to slough through tech chewing my fingernails. I want to effortlessly breeze though tech and have a good time at the track. I want THAT kind of build. :)

vectorsolid

10-26-2008, 03:22 PM

Tell me the truth-- your two hoop cage wasn't your first choice, was it?

In all honesty, for me, it wasn't the first thing I noticed. I just noticed differences in the cars, as a whole package. No more than I noticed color or what side the headers on a 6 cylinder were pointing out.

I'm looking at the package. Not particularly one piece of the car. I'm noticing it now though :) as it seems to be the area of contention.

vectorsolid

10-27-2008, 04:38 AM

Another note from my new NHRA tech buddy. None of this is particularly the gospel. It's what he's feeling. Check locally at your track to be sure.

"...Based on what I have read in your rules, the driver suit requirements are as follows:

1- Full-faced helmet with face shield meeting Snell 2000 or later.
2- Head sock or skirt on helmet or neck collar to cover the skin area of the
driver's throat.
3- SFI jacket meeting 3.2A/1 minimum.
4- SFI gloves meeting 3.3/1 minimum.
5- Arm restraints.

The driver's safety gear is based on a number of things such as E.T. and MPH, however they are also based on the body style, type of fuel, firewall material, etc. Open bodied cars do require more gear at lesser E.T. and MPH...."

Toymaker

10-27-2008, 01:21 PM

And it's NEVER my intention to discourage ANYONE from building their car to their vision, or to their needs, or whatever. It IS my intention to be a mouthy pain in the butt...if I can get you to think!!! If you, or Vectorsolid, or any of the other guys read one of my comments and stop, and think "well, shit, did I stray too far from the concept?....nah, he's just a dick." then I've done my job.

I hate that anybody building one of these has to compromise anything in their build to please someone else, but, sometimes that's the way it goes. Tell me the truth-- your two hoop cage wasn't your first choice, was it?

I thought it odd that Vectorsolid referred to closely copying cars of the day "cookie cutter", and that modern builds were not. I see more variety in the cars of yesterday than I do today.
Originally I was following the guidelines lead, then I found there were NHRA issues, so a 3 pt was my choice (I thought a 3pt was allowed to 10.00 & slower), the extra bars came out of requirements. BUT I never thought that safety requirements would be a determining factor whether or not it was a HA/GR.

Ryan

10-27-2008, 01:27 PM

Moparsled... you speak well my man.

Old6rodder

10-27-2008, 02:51 PM

Yep, that's what we're doing out here for firesuits, plus the shoes. They're telling us it's based more on "open car" reasons than anything else and that makes perfect sense given the safety paranoia extant in today's society. However so far at least, they seem to be content with two layer specs here as we're obviously not going to be generating fuel level fires with plain gas.

Rant mode on ...... :mad:

If I had a genie I'd wish first for a lawyer smart enough to devise a bulletproof disclaimer for those in any sport wishing to play the game for real. Of course there isn't one (even if there were I'd want to shoot'im afterward). In my never to be humble opinion, to a man they're nothing more than vultures circling above in the very updraft of paranoia they've fostered. One day their numbers'll blot out freedom's warm light all together (poetically put perhaps, but no less true). For the cost of the ammo I'd gladly finish my days removing'em.

Hell, that sort of racing'd be a great crowd drawing point in and of itself. The hype'd run something like; "Ladies & Germs, our next class competes with no more safety equipment than each personally wants. Though a class of slower, historically engineered cars many of'em still prefer to race the way they were then, with the dangers as real as they were at the very birth of what we now call rails. Some of these bad boys ......... etc, ad vertisum."

It'll never be NHRA's "even the lowliest sparrow" style of course, but if legalized there'd certainly be players (and spectators I'll bet) and there'd be TV money in it sooner rather than later. Artificial drama's nowhere near the draw of the real thing, nor is it the fun.
Yes, I still putt bucketless on the back mountain roads, and no, I won't sue anybody if & when I hurt myself (please note the correct frame of reference). It's my body, my life, I take responsibility for'em myself, and fuck you very much for every attempt to deprive me of that freedom.

OK, rant mode off ........ :o

Our second hoop wasn't our first choice either. I do notice'em. Every one of'em. I tolerate'em the same way I vote most years; "least offensive choice of the gutlessly pathetic selection available at present".
I don't take notice of color first but definitely notice chassis layout right off. Next noticed is usually engine and carburettor choices for me. :D

vectorsolid

10-27-2008, 03:48 PM

If I had a genie I'd wish first for a lawyer smart enough to devise a bulletproof disclaimer for those in any sport wishing to play the game for real.

And on THAT, I think we can all agree. :)

64 DODGE 440

10-27-2008, 04:59 PM

For the cost of the ammo I'd gladly finish my days removing'em.

Can I help?? I'll buy my own ammo.:D

budssuperpro

10-27-2008, 09:18 PM

I'm pretty confident in knowing what I want. i just want to make sure I can play with it as often as possible.:)

I like nostalgia, I want to race with my buds, and I want to build it and have fun. I don't care if I win lose or draw. But I would like to race it more than once a year. And it had better be able to smoke 'em in the burnout box.

I'm asking a LOT of questions because I don't want to re-invent the wheel. And I need this to pass tech if I'm gonna get to play. Who better to ask than guys that are getting the thumbs down in tech? ;)

Our track, within the last few days has been IHRA sanctioned. I'm actually going to a board of directors meeting on Thursday to show them what a group of us are planning on building over the winter.

This guy in our town is trying to get himself involved in the tech for the track. I know NHRA and IHRA Sport Compact rules, not wherever the HA/GR comes in. And this other guy isn't a fabricator, and doesn't know cromoly from plastic... Yet he's telling me "How it's gonna be". But he doesn't know shit. I need to let these guys know, ahead of time, that our group are serious fabricators, and we know the rules and are building to spec, so that when we show up in the spring we don't surprise anybody.

I think there is always some 'wiggle room' with tech guys. Get yourself on their good side. At our track the guy that typically stands in the staging lanes and organizes who races, has a local business and is a super nice guy. For a laugh I had some stickers made for my windshield that said his business kicks ass!!! He came over to my car and while chuckling, said what's THAT about? I told him I figure if I kiss up to the race organizer I might get more track time. :) He laughed his ass off and now when I'm in the staging lanes smiling like a Cheshire cat, he looks over and laughs and shakes his head. Long story short... I want that for the HA/GR cars.

There are the folks that insist that the NHRA be damned, here's the old school way! I think both can happen (at least for my group). but what are the concessions?

What do I need to give up to breeze through tech? Few cage bars? Not a problem. Perhaps rear suspension? no big deal. Maybe little bitty doors that you can barely see? So what. What's the Exact definition of a "roof" that makes you a convertible? and changes cage rules. I don't know yet.

I don't want to fight, I want to build and race. :D
================================================== ====
The NHRA Rule Book Just tells you what you can't DO.
its up to you to figure out what you can DO .
The NHRA Rule Book was Built off the PRO mistakes not yours.
There are a ton of holes in the nhra rule Book you just need to know how and were to look.
its like the Optimist and the pesamist. Dont think of I can't do this ! think of it as I need to find another way to get there.

vectorsolid

10-27-2008, 09:36 PM

================================================== ====
The NHRA Rule Book Just tells you what you can't DO.
its up to you to figure out what you can DO .
The NHRA Rule Book was Built off the PRO mistakes not yours.
There are a ton of holes in the nhra rule Book you just need to know how and were to look.
its like the Optimist and the pesamist. Dont think of I can't do this ! think of it as I need to find another way to get there.

Are you for or against adding extra cage bars? I'm not sure what direction you're trying to go with that.

Are you saying, look harder, it's legal. OR, look harder and figure out what to change to make it legal?