View Full Version : History Why the American Automotive Industry Failed, and Continues to Fail: W. Edwards Deming


fur biscuit
10-17-2008, 08:30 PM
So you silly little gits, time to learn something. This is the man that lead to the down fall of the American automotive industry. Not that he destroyed because of his actions, but because of American automotive manufacturer inactions. THEY IGNORED HIM.

The managment and unions that still permeate the American automotive industry, were there when this man and his techniques were acknowledged.

Sorry kids. 30 years of industry lagging led to where they are today. And the desire to force them same line is going to sink them. The golden whore has been fucked to death and we all get to sit and watch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

William Edwards Deming (October 14, 1900–December 20, 1993) was an American statistician, professor, author, lecturer, and consultant. Deming is widely credited with improving production in the United States during World War II, although he is perhaps best known for his work in Japan. There, from 1950 onward he taught top management how to improve design (and thus service), product quality, testing and sales (the last through global markets)[1] through various methods, including the application of statistical methods. Deming made a significant contribution to Japan's later renown for innovative high-quality products and its economic power. He is regarded as having had more impact upon Japanese manufacturing and business than any other individual not of Japanese heritage. Despite being considered something of a hero in Japan, he was only beginning to win widespread recognition in the U.S. at the time of his death. [2]

Contents [hide]
1 Overview
2 Early life and work
2.1 Work in Japan
2.2 Honors
2.3 Later work in the U.S.
3 Deming philosophy synopsis
3.1 The Deming System of Profound Knowledge
3.2 Deming's 14 points
3.3 Seven Deadly Diseases
4 Quotations and concepts
5 See also
6 Notes
7 Bibliography
8 External links



[edit] Overview
Ford Motor Company was simultaneously manufacturing a car model with transmissions made in Japan and the United States. Soon after the car model was on the market, Ford customers were requesting the model with Japanese transmission over the USA-made transmission, and they were willing to wait for the Japanese model. As both transmissions were made to the same specifications, Ford engineers could not understand the customer preference for the model with Japanese transmission. It delivered smoother performance with a lower defect rate. Finally, Ford engineers decided to take apart the two different transmissions. The American-made car parts were all within specified tolerance levels. On the other hand, the Japanese car parts had much closer tolerances than the USA-made parts - i.e. if a part was supposed to be one foot long, plus or minus 1/8 of an inch - then the Japanese parts were within 1/16 of an inch. This made the Japanese cars run more smoothly and customers experienced fewer problems. This is an example of Dr. Deming's teachings, having been adopted by the Japanese, delivering better quality products [3].

Deming received a B.S. in electrical engineering from the University of Wyoming at Laramie (1921), an M.S. from the University of Colorado (1925), and a Ph.D. from Yale University (1928). Both graduate degrees were in mathematics and physics. Deming had an internship at Bell Telephone Laboratories while studying at Yale. He subsequently worked at the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the Census Department. While working under Gen. Douglas MacArthur as a census consultant to the Japanese government, he famously taught statistical process control methods to Japanese business leaders, returning to Japan for many years to consult and to witness economic growth that he had predicted as a result of application of techniques learned from Walter Shewhart at Bell Laboratories. Later, he became a professor at New York University while engaged as an independent consultant in Washington, D.C.

Deming was the author of Out of the Crisis (1982–1986) and The New Economics for Industry, Government, Education (1993), which includes his System of Profound Knowledge and the 14 Points for Management (described below). Deming played flute & drums and composed music throughout his life, including sacred choral compositions and an arrangement of The Star Spangled Banner.[4]

In 1993, Deming founded the W. Edwards Deming Institute in Washington, D.C., where the Deming Collection at the U.S. Library of Congress includes an extensive audiotape and videotape archive. The aim of the W. Edwards Deming Institute is to foster understanding of The Deming System of Profound Knowledge to advance commerce, prosperity and peace.[5]


[edit] Early life and work
Born in Sioux City, Iowa, Deming was raised in Polk City, Iowa on his grandfather's chicken farm, then later in Powell, Wyoming. His father's name was also William, so he was called Edwards (the maiden name of his mother, Pluma Irene Edwards).[6] In 1917, he enrolled in the University of Wyoming at Laramie, graduating in 1921 with a B.S. in electrical engineering. In 1925, he received an M.S. from the University of Colorado, and in 1928, a Ph.D. from Yale University. Both graduate degrees were in mathematics and mathematical physics. Deming worked as a mathematical physicist at the United States Department of Agriculture (1927–39), and was a statistical adviser for the United States Census Bureau (1939–45). He was a professor of statistics at New York University's graduate school of business administration (1946–1993), and he taught at Columbia University's graduate School of business (1988–1993). He also was a consultant for private business.

In 1927, Deming was introduced to Walter A. Shewhart of the Bell Telephone Laboratories by Dr. C.H. Kunsman of the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA). Deming found great inspiration in the work of Shewhart, the originator of the concepts of statistical control of processes and the related technical tool of the control chart, as Deming began to move toward the application of statistical methods to industrial production and management. Shewhart's idea of common and special causes of variation led directly to Deming's theory of management. Deming saw that these ideas could be applied not only to manufacturing processes but also to the processes by which enterprises are led and managed. This key insight made possible his enormous influence on the economics of the industrialized world after 1950.[7]

Deming edited a series of lectures delivered by Shewhart at USDA, Statistical Method from the Viewpoint of Quality Control, into a book published in 1939. One reason he learned so much from Shewhart, Deming remarked in a videotaped interview, was that, while brilliant, Shewhart had an "uncanny ability to make things difficult." Deming thus spent a great deal of time both copying Shewhart's ideas and devising ways to present them with his own twist.[8]

Deming developed the sampling techniques that were used for the first time during the 1940 U.S. Census. During World War II, Deming was a member of the five-man Emergency Technical Committee. He worked with H.F. Dodge, A.G. Ashcroft, Leslie E. Simon, R.E. Wareham, and John Gaillard in the compilation of the American War Standards (American Standards Association ZI.1-3 published in 1942)[9] and taught statistical process control (SPC) techniques to workers engaged in wartime production. Statistical methods were widely applied during World War II, but faded into disuse a few years later in the face of huge overseas demand for American mass-produced products.


[edit] Work in Japan
In 1947, Deming was involved in early planning for the 1951 Japanese Census. The Allied powers were occupying Japan, and he was asked by the U.S. United States Department of the Army to assist with the census. While Deming was there, his expertise in quality control techniques, combined with his involvement in Japanese society, led to his receiving an invitation from the Japanese Union of Scientists and Engineers (JUSE).[6]

JUSE members had studied Shewhart's techniques, and as part of Japan's reconstruction efforts, they sought an expert to teach statistical control. During June–August 1950, Deming trained hundreds of engineers, managers, and scholars in statistical process control (SPC) and concepts of quality. He also conducted at least one session for top management.[10] Deming's message to Japan's chief executives: improving quality will reduce expenses while increasing productivity and market share.[1] Perhaps the best known of these management lectures was delivered at the Mt. Hakone Conference Center in August 1950.

A number of Japanese manufacturers applied his techniques widely and experienced theretofore unheard of levels of quality and productivity. The improved quality combined with the lowered cost created new international demand for Japanese products.

Deming declined to receive royalties from the transcripts of his 1950 lectures, so JUSE's board of directors established the Deming Prize (December 1950) to repay him for his friendship and kindness.[10] The Deming Prize—especially the Deming Application Prize, which is given to companies—has exerted an immeasurable influence directly or indirectly on the development of quality control and quality management in Japan.[11][12]


[edit] Honors
In 1960, the Prime Minister of Japan (Nobusuke Kishi), acting on behalf of Emperor Hirohito, awarded Dr. Deming Japan’s Order of the Sacred Treasure, Second Class.[13] The citation on the medal recognizes Deming's contributions to Japan’s industrial rebirth and its worldwide success. The first section of the meritorious service record describes his work in Japan:[10]

1947, Rice Statistics Mission member
1950, assistant to the Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers
instructor in sample survey methods in government statistics
The second half of the record lists his service to private enterprise through the introduction of epochal ideas, such as quality control and market survey techniques.


[edit] Later work in the U.S.
David Salsburg wrote:

"He was known for his kindness to and consideration for those he worked with, for his robust, if very subtle, humor, and for his interest in music. He sang in a choir, played drums and flute, and published several original pieces of sacred music." (page 254, The Lady Tasting Tea)[14]
Later, from his home in Washington, D.C., Dr. Deming continued running his own consultancy business in the United States, largely unknown and unrecognized in his country of origin and work. In 1980, he was featured prominently in an NBC documentary titled If Japan can... Why can't we? about the increasing industrial competition the United States was facing from Japan. As a result of the broadcast, demand for his services increased dramatically, and Deming continued consulting for industry throughout the world until his death at the age of 93.

Ford Motor Company was one of the first American corporations to seek help from Deming. In 1981, Ford's sales were falling. Between 1979 and 1982, Ford had incurred $3 billion in losses. Ford's newly appointed Division Quality Manager John A. Manoogian was charged with recruiting Dr. Deming to help jump-start a quality movement at Ford. [15] Deming questioned the company's culture and the way its managers operated. To Ford's surprise, Deming talked not about quality but about management. He told Ford that management actions were responsible for 85% of all problems in developing better cars. In 1986 Ford came out with a profitable line of cars, the Taurus-Sable line. In a letter to Autoweek Magazine, Donald Petersen, then Ford Chairman, said, "We are moving toward building a quality culture at Ford and the many changes that have been taking place here have their roots directly in Dr. Deming's teachings."[16] By 1986, Ford had become the most profitable American auto company. For the first time since the 1920s, its earnings had exceeded those of arch rival General Motors (GM). Ford had come to lead the American automobile industry in improvements. Ford's following years' earnings confirmed that its success was not a fluke, for its earnings continued to exceed GM and Chrysler's.

In 1982, Dr. Deming, as author, had his book published by the MIT Center for Advanced Engineering as Quality, Productivity, and Competitive Position, which was renamed Out of the Crisis in 1986. Deming offers a theory of management based on his famous 14 Points for Management. Management's failure to plan for the future brings about loss of market, which brings about loss of jobs. Management must be judged not only by the quarterly dividend, but by innovative plans to stay in business, protect investment, ensure future dividends, and provide more jobs through improved products and services. "Long-term commitment to new learning and new philosophy is required of any management that seeks transformation. The timid and the fainthearted, and the people that expect quick results, are doomed to disappointment."

Over the course of his career, Deming received dozens of academic awards, including another, honorary, Ph.D. from Oregon State University. In 1987 he was awarded the National Medal of Technology: "For his forceful promotion of statistical methodology, for his contributions to sampling theory, and for his advocacy to corporations and nations of a general management philosophy that has resulted in improved product quality." In 1988, he received the Distinguished Career in Science award from the National Academy of Sciences.[6]

In 1993, Dr. Deming published his final book, The New Economics for Industry, Government, Education, which included the System of Profound Knowledge and the 14 Points for Management. It also contained educational concepts involving group-based teaching without grades, as well as management without individual merit or performance reviews.

In December 1993, W. Edwards Deming died in his sleep at his Washington home at about 3 a.m. due to "natural causes." His family was by his side when he died.[17]


[edit] Deming philosophy synopsis
The philosophy of W. Edwards Deming has been summarized as follows:

"Dr. W. Edwards Deming taught that by adopting appropriate principles of management, organizations can increase quality and simultaneously reduce costs (by reducing waste, rework, staff attrition and litigation while increasing customer loyalty). The key is to practice continual improvement and think of manufacturing as a system, not as bits and pieces."[18]
In the 1970s, Dr. Deming's philosophy was summarized by some of his Japanese proponents with the following 'a'-versus-'b' comparison:

(a) When people and organizations focus primarily on quality, defined by the following ratio,

quality tends to increase and costs fall over time.
(b) However, when people and organizations focus primarily on costs (often dominant/typical human behavior), costs (due to not minimizing waste, ignoring amount of rework occurring, taking staff for granted, not rapidly resolving disputes, and failing to notice lack of product improvement—plus, over time, loss of customer loyalty) tend to rise and quality declines over time.

[edit] The Deming System of Profound Knowledge
"The prevailing style of management must undergo transformation. A system cannot understand itself. The transformation requires a view from outside. The aim of this chapter is to provide an outside view—a lens—that I call a system of profound knowledge. It provides a map of theory by which to understand the organizations that we work in.

"The first step is transformation of the individual. This transformation is discontinuous. It comes from understanding of the system of profound knowledge. The individual, transformed, will perceive new meaning to his life, to events, to numbers, to interactions between people.

"Once the individual understands the system of profound knowledge, he will apply its principles in every kind of relationship with other people. He will have a basis for judgment of his own decisions and for transformation of the organizations that he belongs to. The individual, once transformed, will:

Set an example;
Be a good listener, but will not compromise;
Continually teach other people; and
Help people to pull away from their current practices and beliefs and move into the new philosophy without a feeling of guilt about the past."
Deming advocated that all managers need to have what he called a System of Profound Knowledge, consisting of four parts:

Appreciation of a system: understanding the overall processes involving suppliers, producers, and customers (or recipients) of goods and services (explained below);
Knowledge of variation: the range and causes of variation in quality, and use of statistical sampling in measurements;
Theory of knowledge: the concepts explaining knowledge and the limits of what can be known (see also: epistemology);
Knowledge of psychology: concepts of human nature.
Deming explained, "One need not be eminent in any part nor in all four parts in order to understand it and to apply it. The 14 points for management in industry, education, and government follow naturally as application of this outside knowledge, for transformation from the present style of Western management to one of optimization."

"The various segments of the system of profound knowledge proposed here cannot be separated. They interact with each other. Thus, knowledge of psychology is incomplete without knowledge of variation.

"A manager of people needs to understand that all people are different. This is not ranking people. He needs to understand that the performance of anyone is governed largely by the system that he works in, the responsibility of management. A psychologist that possesses even a crude understanding of variation as will be learned in the experiment with the Red Beads (Ch. 7) could no longer participate in refinement of a plan for ranking people."[19]

The Appreciation of a system involves understanding how interactions (i.e. feedback) between the elements of a system can result in internal restrictions that force the system to behave as a single organism that automatically seeks a steady state. It is this steady state that determines the output of the system rather than the individual elements. Thus it is the structure of the organization rather than the employees, alone, which holds the key to improving the quality of output.

The Knowledge of variation involves understanding that everything measured consists of both "normal" variation due to the flexibility of the system and of "special causes" that create defects. Quality involves recognizing the difference in order to eliminate "special causes" while controlling normal variation. Deming taught that making changes in response to "normal" variation would only make the system perform worse. Understanding variation includes the mathematical certainty that variation will normally occur within six standard deviations of the mean.

The System of Profound Knowledge is the basis for application of Deming's famous 14 Points for Management, described below.


[edit] Deming's 14 points
Deming offered fourteen key principles for management for transforming business effectiveness. The points were first presented in his book Out of the Crisis (p. 23-24)[20].

Create constancy of purpose toward improvement of product and service, with the aim to become competitive and stay in business, and to provide jobs.
Adopt the new philosophy. We are in a new economic age. Western management must awaken to the challenge, must learn their responsibilities, and take on leadership for change.
Cease dependence on inspection to achieve quality. Eliminate the need for inspection on a mass basis by building quality into the product in the first place.
End the practice of awarding business on the basis of price tag. Instead, minimize total cost. Move towards a single supplier for any one item, on a long-term relationship of loyalty and trust.
Improve constantly and forever the system of production and service, to improve quality and productivity, and thus constantly decrease cost.
Institute training on the job.
Institute leadership (see Point 12 and Ch. 8 of "Out of the Crisis"). The aim of supervision should be to help people and machines and gadgets to do a better job. Supervision of management is in need of overhaul, as well as supervision of production workers.
Drive out fear, so that everyone may work effectively for the company. (See Ch. 3 of "Out of the Crisis")
Break down barriers between departments. People in research, design, sales, and production must work as a team, to foresee problems of production and in use that may be encountered with the product or service.
Eliminate slogans, exhortations, and targets for the work force asking for zero defects and new levels of productivity. Such exhortations only create adversarial relationships, as the bulk of the causes of low quality and low productivity belong to the system and thus lie beyond the power of the work force.
a. Eliminate work standards (quotas) on the factory floor. Substitute leadership.
b. Eliminate management by objective. Eliminate management by numbers, numerical goals. Substitute workmanship.
a. Remove barriers that rob the hourly worker of his right to pride of workmanship. The responsibility of supervisors must be changed from sheer numbers to quality.
b. Remove barriers that rob people in management and in engineering of their right to pride of workmanship. This means, inter alia, abolishment of the annual or merit rating and of management by objective (See CH. 3 of "Out of the Crisis").
Institute a vigorous program of education and self-improvement.
Put everyone in the company to work to accomplish the transformation. The transformation is everyone's work.

[edit] Seven Deadly Diseases
The Seven Deadly Diseases (also known as the "Seven Wastes"):

Lack of constancy of purpose.
Emphasis on short-term profits.
Evaluation by performance, merit rating, or annual review of performance.
Mobility of management.
Running a company on visible figures alone.
Excessive medical costs.
Excessive costs of warranty, fueled by lawyers who work for contingency fees.
A Lesser Category of Obstacles:

Neglecting long-range planning.
Relying on technology to solve problems.
Seeking examples to follow rather than developing solutions.
Excuses, such as "Our problems are different."

bustedlifter
10-17-2008, 08:36 PM
One step to help the auto industry would be to do away with the CAFE standards. When the gubmint sticks it's nose where it has no business sticking it , things are bound to go downhill.

fur biscuit
10-17-2008, 08:40 PM
One step to help the auto industry would be to do away with the CAFE standards. When the gubmint sticks it's nose where it has no business sticking it , things are bound to go downhill.

No. Gov't must do something, regretably...they need to justify themselves.

Gov't standards need to be guided. Regratably "uneducated" people make decisions that affect the rest of us.

Unkl Ian
10-17-2008, 08:42 PM
Demming was a total genius.


Detroit's failure has little to do with government,
everything to do with "Management" ,"Leadership" and "Salesmanship"; or lack there of.

49coupe
10-17-2008, 08:49 PM
I've read his books. Brilliant and simple. Between the executives and the employees raping the golden goose for decades they can't compete. I said over 10 ten years ago that you can't build an average quality car with extraordinary labor costs fueled by executive greed.

If you keep buying, things will never change. I put my money where my mouth is. I haven't bought a N American built for over 20 years.

I just hope they can pull their heads out of their asses before one of the big three become a piece of history again.

Von Rigg Fink
10-17-2008, 08:54 PM
agreed..and they treat their suppliers like shit..and dont want to pay them either..guess what? the supplier finds some one else who will appriciate them. or they go out of Buisness, because they are squeezed so bad on the 4 letter word "profit" that they can no longer build the american made part that the company provided to them.

( yes i know profit isnt a 4 letter word, but they sure make you feel like it is)

Scott K
10-17-2008, 09:04 PM
Just a note that many universities do not allow students to use Wikipedia as a reference. It is not a credible source.

Use at your own risk.

autobilly
10-17-2008, 09:15 PM
Interesting thread, Fur Biscuit.

belair
10-17-2008, 09:20 PM
Passion for profit has replaced passion for the product. The concept of working for the long haul, "workmanship" and "pride" are sadly archaic. Everyone (labor and management) is simply trying to grab all they can for as long as they can. The advesararial relationship between labor and management have poisoned the workplace. Accountants should never be allowed to be managers, and and managment should understand their job is have a company to pass on to others. Greed has brought us to this.

yorgatron
10-17-2008, 09:26 PM
great post! :D

i read this book; http://www.amazon.com/Reckoning-David-Halberstam/dp/0380721473

awhile ago,fascinating stuff.

any amateur automotive historian (and aren't we all automotive historians here on the HAMB? :confused: )
should try to understand why it is we worship the products of a bygone age,since the manufacturers have failed to bring us the quality we can only find in "obsolete" cars

Shifty Shifterton
10-17-2008, 09:33 PM
Had no idea I grew up in such close proximity to Deming's childhood. Totally explains my awesomeness.

Revhead
10-17-2008, 09:38 PM
If you keep buying, things will never change. I put my money where my mouth is. I haven't bought a N American built for over 20 years.


oh yeah, that make total sense :rolleyes:

fur biscuit
10-17-2008, 09:51 PM
Just a note that many universities do not allow students to use Wikipedia as a reference. It is not a credible source.

Use at your own risk.

Yup. I needed a quick reference source. But feel free to disprove.

fur biscuit
10-17-2008, 09:56 PM
I said over 10 ten years ago that you can't build an average quality car with extraordinary labor costs fueled by executive greed.

.

This is a very important point, profit is essential, greed is needed, and competitiveness is required. Short term gains on the first 2, led to the long term damage/descruction of the 3rd.

Never before has the Economic Superpower of the time willingly forced itself into a situation that brought it self to its knees.

I hope that we are seeing a fundamental shift towards personal responsibilty. Professional responsibilty. Accountability.

The problem is that we have sucessfully brought others online who are less prone to "ethics" than we are, we spawned our own demise.

fur biscuit
10-17-2008, 10:02 PM
Passion for profit has replaced passion for the product. The concept of working for the long haul, "workmanship" and "pride" are sadly archaic. Everyone (labor and management) is simply trying to grab all they can for as long as they can. The advesararial relationship between labor and management have poisoned the workplace. Accountants should never be allowed to be managers, and and managment should understand their job is have a company to pass on to others. Greed has brought us to this.

Exactly, it became a perpetual US vs. THEM. It appears that the Unions won and for years. Now they have won so well they will starve. Business must expand and contract through the good and bad.

The problem is that the Union leaders have a job that is parasitic and must be perpetuated in order for them to survive, they must justify thier existance by repressing thier own.

Management does the same, just in the opposite.

stude_trucks
10-17-2008, 10:16 PM
I don't think the biggest problem now is build quality, as that has gone up considerably since the dark days of the mid 70's to mid 90's. The real problem now is they design and market cars that are not at all innovative and are at best rehashes of previous former glory days with little to no consideration for what people will want and need in the future. The designs are out of the past and are not competitive with foreign companies who design and produce for the future. I have said it before and I will say it again, if they continue to design and produce products that recall the past and ignore the future, that is exactly where they will find themselves - in the past.

American manufacturing companies have lost their edge and progressiveness and have become too conservative because of their fear of losing profit. They build mediocre, middle of the road crap with old conservative design concepts that just aren't suitable for the current market conditions and aren't now desirable from a public that can't afford second rate mediocrity. When times are good and gas is cheap, it isn't that critical if you drive around in wasteful garbage as if it is going to stay that way forever. Sort sightedness is killing them because it takes so long to produce new product. They have no clear long term vision and can't produce innovative product to solve the needs of the future. They need to do a thorough cleaning of house starting at the top. It is the top end that is deficient and killing the companies, not the quality, the workers or the workmanship at the lower end.

I predict that there is a lot of opportunity for smaller, leaner more innovative companies to produce better, cooler, more attractive and useful cars and trucks. Tesla Motors for instance.

Boones
10-17-2008, 10:35 PM
Deming is a god in his field, when the US ignored him he went to Japan and they listened and began the search for continous improvement and quality and are what they are today because of guys like him (including Dr. Taguchi & Dr. Ishikawa). It wasn't until NBC published its white paper "If Japan can, why can't we" did America discouver him.

warbird
10-17-2008, 10:50 PM
With all the good stuff being said about Deming, I'd be hard pressed to add anything additional.

The company I retired from dabbled with Demings ideas for awhile (showing real promise, I might add), until they were swallowed up by a larger multi-national. That outfit substituted their bastardized version of the Toyota Production System which made life at work pretty difficult. I'm just glad I got out of the mess...

jdustu
10-17-2008, 11:44 PM
There was a study done by MIT, and the resulting book "The Machine That Changed the World" is pretty amazing. The hubris that Big Three management showed throughout the eighties and early nineties is unreal. They made a lot of "attempts" to lean out, but mostly they were pr moves that inevitably failed because they weren't rooted in the right philosphy. The UAW isn't without blame, but the Japan auto industry has a strong union as well. Labor needs a voice.

As far as buying american, the '06 Ram I leased didn't even have enough domestic content to be considered "domestic", and the toyota camry has more domestic content than any other car in its class.

-Josh

Tiger II
10-17-2008, 11:45 PM
They all have there problems. We purchased and drove an 88 and 92 Merc Sable and put 120k miles on both. The 88 was a better car but each were essentially trouble free. We now have a 98 Lexus 400 which has many infuriating problems. 1. Starter failed at 108kmi. $1400 dealer fix. I did it myself and it was a bitch as its buried beneath the intake manifold(heat soak eats them up). No consideration given to R+R, a tool had to be fabricated to loosen and install bolts from back side of block because of 1" clearance of firewall. Sunroof at times will not close fully, closes partially but then opens fully and parks. No obsructions, no outward reasons. During this sequence passenger seat fully extends and reclines. WTF? Again with no prompting. Have had to cover top with plastic during these episodes as we do live in Seattle! Half an hour later all is fine. Cabin trunk opener no longer works. $400 keys break where plastic meets metal(key shop tells me this is typical). Window fogging major problem. Weather stripping not the issue as this was replaced at 92k. All that said it does get 20+ around town and will haul ass when its hammer down.
Spent some time in a new Chevy Duramax P/U hunting this last week and was very impressed. Isuzu/Allison and build quality
appear to be in order. Recent Ford CEO Alan Mullally (an engineer) from Boeing will hopefully resurrect a great Marque for the American consumer. We will see.

jdustu
10-17-2008, 11:58 PM
I'm not talking about WHERE it's built. The money for the Hondas built here in the USA goes back to Japan! The small amount of money that the guy makes who puts those cars together doesn't amount to ANYTHING to our economy...

Jobs are huge. Shoot, Toyota even opened up a design center in Ann Arbor...They will soon have a vehicle engineered and built completely in the USA.

For years GM and Ford took those "profits" and invested them overseas anyways....that's gotten them pretty far, eh? And Chrysler was owned by a German company for the better part of the last decade, now they're owned by a bunch of corporate raiders that don't have CLUE when it comes to the auto industry. They had all had to stop shouting "buy american" because THEY no longer bought american. Parts from the cheapest suppliers in china or brazil, I.T. sourced to india, ect. ect.

Example: Everybody complains about the 125 year old Hardware store closing on Main St., but they buy all their stuff at Home Depot!


Home Depot is american owned, how is that the same? And a retailer isn't quite comparable to manufacturer.

I do find it funny when I see a guy with a "BUY AMERICAN" sticker on his canadian built ford coming out of wal-mart. Do they even sell anything made in american anymore?

That's kind of a different topic: American's love cheap shit. Harbor Freight and Wal-mart are two of china's biggest buyers. They won't pay for top quality, they want mass produced crap.

Bookz
10-18-2008, 12:01 AM
Because too many people call themselves Americans ,but buy and drive Foriegn cars....Next time you're on the frwy,just look around and see how many cars there are that the money went back to some other country!
Toyota
Nissan
Hyundai
Mercedes
Porsche
Audi
Kia
BMW
SAAB
Honda
Subaru

USA,
GM
Ford
Dodge

That's why US car companys are losing.....NO FAIR TRADE AGREEMENT!!!!!

I don't think a Fair Trade Agreement is the answer. People are voting with their cheque books and buying what suits their lifestyle. The American Industry is not building what they want so they buy foreign. I recently drove the latest Mustang and what a outdated piece of unimspiring junk that was compared to my 3 year old BMW M3 or my 1991 Porsche 964.The majority of American cars are about as relavent to the modern world as a horse and cart.

jdustu
10-18-2008, 12:16 AM
I agree! But you still have to put the blame on the consumers! When I was a kid,and their was almost NO Foriegn competition,all you ever saw on the road was American cars. With the occasional VW. It's gone downhill since the early 70's...due to the Imports...

I think there is plenty of blame to spread around:) The big three took the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" approach and got passed and lapped in innovation(in both design and manufacturing). The government allows other countries to freely peddle their products here without reciprocation. Toyota gets all kinds of credit for bringing the Prius to the market so quickly, but that wouldn't have happened with out Japan subsidizing it(something that only now is happening in Detroit, and it's a little late). Execs keep pocketing huge checks, especially in comparison to their Asian counterparts, and then can't understand why the union would resist taking paycuts. Our country's health care costs our out of control, and until the VEBA takes effect GM is the largest private health care provider in the country. Those costs start to take from research and development. There are so many reasons, and any one or two of them would cause problems over time. Now there are too many to count, and the credit fiasco right now isn't doing anyone favors.

58Fridge100
10-18-2008, 12:24 AM
Because too many people call themselves Americans ,but buy and drive Foriegn cars....Next time you're on the frwy,just look around and see how many cars there are that the money went back to some other country!
Toyota
Nissan
Hyundai
Mercedes
Porsche
Audi
Kia
BMW
SAAB
Honda
Subaru

USA,
GM
Ford
Dodge

That's why US car companys are losing.....NO FAIR TRADE AGREEMENT!!!!!


Honestly, I agree with you, but protectionism has its own problems associated with it. If your products can't compete, they don't possess a worthy trade currency on a global scale. That puts our GDP in trouble. Tariffs won't correct that-- for long, anyway. Our economy is based on consumerism.

The biggest problem with the Big Three- especially with GM- is arrogance and greed. No one wants to admit that the underdog has one-upped them, right? but we've had a LONG TIME to figure this one out.

A company like Honda only makes a couple of motors for their entire line of cars-- generally, a 4 cyl and V6. They sink a ton of R&D into those engine configurations initially, with planned upgrades and improvements in displacement or cylinder head technology. How many four cylinders has GM made?? toyota survived with a single 22RE design for almost two decades, and saw quality ratings and durability that GM couldn't touch at the time.

GM is still somewhat stuck on the idea that worked in the 50's/60's, racing to come up with new platfoms and body styles for multiple lines of cars, but now stuck using older motor technology or quick fixes and borrowed engineering. The heritage of rapid planned obsolescence to excite consumers has started to dissapear, but not fast enough.

Nevertheless, Honda has it's own inbred engineering problems, and as Toyota has grown, the initial quality of Toyota/Lexus has taken a second to Buick's--which is very cool to see.

What matters is that the longer this persists-- globalization and such-- the cooler our vehicles become. I will never let go of my truck, and every time I come across some real Detroit iron that I can afford, I hold on to it. Our kids, if they have any sense, will be amazed at what we have preserved. They might end up having their own tuner electric cars with composite plastic space-frames, but nothing will ever be as cool as the likes of a metal body that was made from a hand sculpted clay buck, or an iron engine block that was cast from a plug fashioned by a real American patternmaker-- back in the day.



__________

jdustu
10-18-2008, 12:40 AM
"Toyota is building a Design Center in Ann Arbor..."
Really...to teach people to design more of THEIR cars.

Let's see if you can understand this example...
I come and stand in you front yard and sell lemonade. Do you think i'm gonna hand the money to you? Nope! I'm gonna take it back home with me. Lets say I hire you to cut the lemons in half for me...I employ you. The money still comes home with me. Let's say I use the lemons from your tree,the money still goes home with me. I build an orchard in your yard and hire more people to pick the lemons. The money still goes home with me.
Now,the orange industry is going downhill,cause people are buying lemonade instead of orange juice.

Can you comprehend that example?

You're right, Toyota's profits are still going back to Japan. Meanwhile GM is spending their money buying parts from china and brazil, making another piss poor investment in Europe, while closing two more plants in Michigan. They have no loyalty to this country unless it profits THEM, why should an average consumer be any different?
Toyota still employs americans to build cars, and I obviously think that is more important than you do. They still pay taxes, they still pay to operate factories in America. Would I rather Detroit get the same oportunity to sell vehicles overseas? Yup. Look up one of my many reasons the domestic industry is failing. But the consumer is looking for the best value. They don't care about Gm, Ford, or Chrysler, and they won't unless they build something outstanding, which they've actually done some of recently. Right now the perfect economic storm is making it hard for anyone, asian or domestic or otherwise, to sell vehicles.

jdustu
10-18-2008, 12:41 AM
I don't know if you remember the big deal with GM cancelling the electric car that used to be sold at Saturn. That was a great idea,and the cars were far better than anything else that was available at the time. What a stupid thing to do! They should have put more money into the developement of that car and the Prius wouldn't have been so tempting. I was gonna buy one to comute to work,then they just pulled the plug!

BTW,DON"T take offense to my comments. I just love a good discussion. Until the moderators kill it that is,LOL.....

It's all good dude, I'm the same way:)

And every now and then there may be a little bit of devil's advocate in me:D

58Fridge100
10-18-2008, 12:44 AM
I don't know if you remember the big deal with GM cancelling the electric car that used to be sold at Saturn. That was a great idea,and the cars were far better than anything else that was available at the time. What a stupid thing to do! They should have put more money into the developement of that car and the Prius wouldn't have been so tempting. I was gonna buy one to comute to work,then they just pulled the plug!



Of course, you've heard the conspiracy theories associated with this, right??
That connections with Big Oil is what really killed the project.....and then GM does what? Dumps almost ALL of their R&D into a full-size, full-frame truck/SUV platform.

They have no loyalty to this country unless it profits THEM, why should an average consumer be any different?

The truck/SUV platform is by far and away the most profitable per unit for all of the Big Tree.

jdustu
10-18-2008, 12:58 AM
I agree. I imagine if I was starving I would look for the cheapest food,OF ANY KIND! Rather than be stubborn and want what I used to eat when I could afford anything I wanted,HA HA!
When I first started driving,it was during the GAS CRISIS in the 70's. People were parking their Muscle cars,Cadillacs,big cars and selling them REAL cheap! I was givin a VW to drive,so it wasn't that bad for me. The gas lines were terrible! Kinda like now where trucks and Hummers are not selling. HUGE waiting lists for Prius's now, just like the waiting lists for VW Bugs and the first Hondas,back then.


Look for GM's press release for the new Camaro. "Muscle Car" is nowhere to be found, instead it's "efficient sports car" and the like:)

jdustu
10-18-2008, 01:01 AM
Really? Four Ford dealerships have closed here in SoCal. The ones that are still open are practly giving away their trucks...Chevy dealership not too far from the job i'm on is holding big sales every weekend,to try to move their trucks. BIG rebates. I read GM is selling their Hummer operation. Any info on that?

If everything was selling for sticker, or close to it, the trucks have a much larger profit margin. Obviuosly the last couple of years they've had to discount the heck out of them, but when they "killed" the electric car they were making bank on trucks/suvs

Too many dealers is also an issue for the big three, and it looks like this economy is going to take care of that...

Jeem
10-18-2008, 01:28 AM
I think it's funny all the hubbub about GM's large SUV hybrid....what?! 20mpg?!
AWWWW yeeeeeaaaaah! Can you just feel our "carbon footprint" melting away?
hahahaaaaaa

Anybody catch the FORD ad a while back touting "...with Quality Standards EQUAL to Toyota's"?
WHUTT?!!!!
Oh my GAWD!!


It's no wonder we HAMB'ers, right or left, look back fondly to the pride we had as a country decades back. Certainly we've had our dark periods socially and economically but all in all we've always excelled. I think the American spirit is taking a beating right now, but we'll prevail. I'm a proud American. Proud of the individuals of this country and the pioneering spirit many of us have, maybe not so much of our TOO LARGE government and some of our industry leaders.

...anyway, resume!

Lotek_Racing
10-18-2008, 01:40 AM
Because too many people call themselves Americans ,but buy and drive Foriegn cars....Next time you're on the frwy,just look around and see how many cars there are that the money went back to some other country!

Toyota - In bed with GM, Vibe is the best Pontiac that Toyota ever made
Nissan
Hyundai
Mercedes
Porsche
Audi
Kia
BMW
SAAB - Owned by GM
Honda
Subaru _ New Saabs are Subaru, see Saab

USA,
GM - Owns Saab and Daewoo, constantly sells re-badged imports under it's own name.
Ford - Owns Volvo and Land Rover, Owned Jag until last year. In bed with Mazda.
Dodge - Owned by Daimler (see Mercedes) until last year, now privately owned.

That's why US car companys are losing.....NO FAIR TRADE AGREEMENT!!!!!

I fixed your post above..

US car companies are losing because they don't listen to their customers and are top-heavy with management. It doesn't help that the unions are strangling the auto manufacturers. Nobody needs $40.00 per hour to install lug nuts.

"American" cars are made in Korea, Japan, Canada, Mexico and the U.S.A. People just don't seem to realise that cars are built by global companies nowadays.

Hell, the Toyota Camry is made in Ontario and we have to pay IMPORT TAX on it. How screwed up is that? The Camry doesn't even exist as a model outside of North America.

Shawn

58Fridge100
10-18-2008, 01:41 AM
Anybody catch the FORD ad a while back touting "...with Quality Standards EQUAL to Toyota's"?
WHUTT?!!!!
Oh my GAWD!!


I have a Toyota steering box in my Ford now-- is that what they mean?:D

fur biscuit
10-18-2008, 04:02 AM
Because too many people call themselves Americans ,but buy and drive Foriegn cars....Next time you're on the frwy,just look around and see how many cars there are that the money went back to some other country!
Toyota
Nissan
Hyundai
Mercedes
Porsche
Audi
Kia
BMW
SAAB
Honda
Subaru

USA,
GM
Ford
Dodge

That's why US car companys are losing.....NO FAIR TRADE AGREEMENT!!!!!

Bob, not very impressed. Seriously, read next time before you post.

fur biscuit
10-18-2008, 04:09 AM
Really? Four Ford dealerships have closed here in SoCal. The ones that are still open are practly giving away their trucks...Chevy dealership not too far from the job i'm on is holding big sales every weekend,to try to move their trucks. BIG rebates. I read GM is selling their Hummer operation. Any info on that?


As I suspected, you didn't read any of what I posted. You popped in and ran your mouth.

Please next time read.

The catchy title is to bring you in. The information is there to help you form an educated opinion, this is not east vs. west vs. euro, but a quick history lesson of what is important.

ex...how many points does Deming make? and how are those points applicable across so many industries?

flatoz
10-18-2008, 04:53 AM
I fixed your post above..


yes I too noticed that bob didn't know what 'european' cars the US companys owned.




The Camry doesn't even exist as a model outside of North America.

Shawn

really??

maybe you should read a bit more too:D

http://www.toyota.com.au/camry


also sold well in south africa, asia and the middle east.

but regardless the worlds screwed.

if you want to know about toyota stuff and philosophy pm 'carps' he's pretty high up in their world and can give you alot of details on their work ethic across the globe.

rustynewyorker
10-18-2008, 06:13 AM
Thing that strikes me reading the original post is a lot of those concepts could be applied to any company - for example, the chowderhead running eBay currently, could learn a lot from Deming.

The situation these companies are in right now with too many trucks for no buyers and not enough small cars is more lack of planning for the future, it shouldn't have taken too much genius to see the potential for any combination of economic failure and oil price increase to cause people to want to buy more small cars and not so many trucks.

raceron1120
10-18-2008, 07:20 AM
Man, this is one interesting subject! Lots of good info, has me wondering how somebody with a high school education (me) understands what's wrong, while others that spent years going to college, etc. DON'T. Oh well.
Several years ago we were intro'd to Lean Six Sigma (LSS) where I work, a sort-of procees improvement concept intended (IMO) to streamline any process thru elimination of unnecessary steps in order to reduce time without sacrificing quality. To keep this short, we were given a process to work & see if improvements could be made to it. We spent weeks on it and came up with what we thought was an improved process that could easily be implemented. We presented it to our "sponsor" (mgmt). Our process improvement was flawed, it wasn't correct as presented, perhaps you should -----, or maybe you could -----... this list of "why it won't work" seemed nearly endless. Seems they already had an answer to our project that wasn't same as our results! This concept (process improvement) can and will work, but only if embraced by those who have a desire to make it work. I've seen it work in production plants. Very similar to why Deming's and other managment tools haven't worked - not that they don't, as much as some don't want 'em to work. Anybody else had similar experiences?

4t64rd
10-18-2008, 07:31 AM
I knew about Deming when I was a 11 y.0. kid in Detroit in the the 70's (I guess I heard about him on the news or something... I was a weird kid) ... What we lack is leadership, and from what I see being taught as "Leadership" is actually a perversion of Deming called "spread the blame as far and wide as possible"... The more of these new "Leaders" we get in leadership positions, the further down the shitter we'll go. The term "shared responsibility" is an oxymoron.

I work with a lot of data now (public education), and it's frustratng as hell because we collect the data, we look at the data and decide which data makes us look the best and present charts to the "Leadership", and then we ignore the bad data... or we ignore the data that doesn't agree with a higher up's pet project, or the findings of some flavor of the week "expert" they just paid $50K to.

I should go back and be an graphic artist again.

Shifty is exactly right, Kingdoms...

raceron1120
10-18-2008, 07:44 AM
Lee Iacocca's book "Where Have all the Leaders Gone?" is pretty good. I haven't read the whole thing yet but intend to. And I get a real kick anymore about how leaders are chosen, even at my lower level where I work. Managament offers courses to its newbies on how to interview, but NOT on how to lead or manage. They learn the buzzwords needed to get a promotion, but to hell with knowing what those words mean, or how they work. Seems they want followers, not someone who might actually challenge them. Potential leaders are stifled or silenced due to managements unwillingness to allow 'feather rufflers' into leadership positions. Pretty sad.

Shifty Shifterton
10-18-2008, 08:44 AM
Simply, Deming works when everyone is rowing the boat in one direction. Such as in a war blistered country trying to heal itself.

Deming does not work when you have a series of mini-kingdoms and personal agendas. Hmmm, who would have those?......

Now that Japan has long since turned the corner, most in the know will tell ya that the Japanese have begun to bastardize Deming with their kingdoms and agendas.

I fear this thread has no real future other than to allow colorful expressions of how 6 sigma philosophy has failed in their own workplace, or how bad "the greedy bosses" or "the lazy union" are. Which doesn't apply to traditional cars.

Morrisman
10-18-2008, 09:58 AM
I rode Japanese motorcycles for ten years before buying my first Triumph Bonneville. I did approx five miles on that thing in the six months I owned it. After trying to do work on the motor I was so frustrated by the CRAP engineering and design, compared to Japanese bikes, that I threw it to one side in frustration and disgust.

That was how the Japs defeated the British bike industry: they used intelligent engineering and production techniques. They invested time and money in their bike design. They used modern and efficient production methods.

The Brits, be it government, management, whatever, just stuck their heads in their asses and watched their once world-beating motorcycle industry fall apart.

Before WW2 the UK had 3 times more motorcycle producing companies than the rest of the world put together, but thirty years later they were down to a handful of ancient companies producing yesterdays designs.

Lotek_Racing
10-18-2008, 10:21 AM
maybe you should read a bit more too:D

http://www.toyota.com.au/camry


also sold well in south africa, asia and the middle east.

but regardless the worlds screwed.

if you want to know about toyota stuff and philosophy pm 'carps' he's pretty high up in their world and can give you alot of details on their work ethic across the globe.

You are correct, sorry, my bad.

What I was trying to explain was that the Camry doesn't exist in Japan. It's a model they developed specifically for export. I didn't realise that they were available in Oz and other places as well.

A friend of mine is one of the higher ups for Western Canada in Toyota, that's where my Camry info came from. He has a very nice 1969 Corolla Sprinter in his garage as well.

Thanks.

Shawn

panic
10-18-2008, 10:47 AM
Deming became successful by telling people what they already know, but had not the will or sense to do without supervision.
Which of those principles is a strange and new thought to anyone here?

He "helped" them in the same way that a 500 lb. woman is "helped" when she reads a diet book.
She already knew the "secret" (put down that donut), but placed no value on it until someone she respected (i.e., took her money) said the same thing.
This is the same dead end that says "there is no morality without religion": you already know these things, but will not behave accordingly without the oversight of a man wearing a strange costume.
This was Freud's excuse why psychiatrists charge too much: you only value things if they're painful to you.

4t64rd
10-18-2008, 11:22 AM
Deming's ideas are usually the hardest for leadership to swallow. The underlings have to be told there will be no punishment for deviating (in the name of efficiency) from the process set forth by leadership.

And all this shit is well and good but it all goes out the window but it's every man for himself when the layoffs start. Shifty's Kingdoms come into play.

stude_trucks
10-18-2008, 11:59 AM
The most important part of free trade is the right of the consumer to buy whatever the hell they want with their hard earned cash. Supporting US companies that can't seem to build good product is not free trade. That is blind stupid corporate welfare that doesn't do anybody any good in the end. That is just basic capitalism that this country is built on. No need to whine and complain when you are getting your ass kicked by others with better products. They are losing and instead of crying like babies, asking for government hand outs and complaining about their employees, they need to get their shit together and start winning by making better products that people now need and want.

Free trade or no free trade, the fact is US companies products are not as good regardless of any cost considerations. If they were half the price of imports, they might still be a hard sell, because honestly, they are only about half as good. If they products were actually better, I am sure enough people would be willing to actually pay more for them. Kind of like paying more for good food at a local restaurant verse the crap down at McDonalds. Asking people to pay more for less is just not free trade and not capitalistic and kind of unAmerican really. it is actually more American and more capitalistic to support companies that make better products for less. American companies love to promote world markets as long as they work for them, but then don't seem to like it when it doesn't. Pretty hypocritical really. And don't think the US government and American companies haven't and still don't do all they can to leverage situations to their advantage and against foreign competitors. Just as the foreign companies and countries do otherwise. That is just part of the game of capitalism.

Us companies need to start designing and marketing better products for the future we are all going to have to live in and they better start doing it fast. It really boils down to a matter of vision and willingness as far as I can tell and I just don't think they have it at the top to succeed. The bad news is the top needs to make the decision to replace themselves to survive and that isn't likely to happen. Kind of like removing your head to cure brain cancer. Sadly, I think they have terminal brain cancer.

The worst thing I find disappointing in this whole conversation at large and in general is the willingness of American workers to bad mouth other American workers for just trying to make a living and earn as much money as they can. That is just a tool the top uses to gain leverage to manipulate the bottom half to their advantage. Fair enough, part of the game, but if you are in the bottom, stop being taken advantage of and promoting that bullshit. It is pretty hard to listen to people that make $100+/hour complain about people who make $40. If you want to suggest someone else take a pay cut, then you need to be prepared to start that process with yourself and I doubt too many will have the balls to do that.

battersea boys
10-18-2008, 12:11 PM
Sema would appear to me as a European as Deming in practice. Highly motivated companies producing goods for home and export,The whole hot rod ideology is stay till the job is done to the best of your ability.

Conversion of this into the general work place is through motivational education as per the (Deming)Japanese model. Japan falls way short not in its manufacturing but in its democratic values

hotrod34
10-18-2008, 12:32 PM
BTTT for the two things that run my life, hot rods and process improvement.

36couper
10-18-2008, 12:43 PM
Definition of hypocrisy: Thoroughly enjoying driving and building your American hot rod while a foreign car sits in your driveway.

Shifty Shifterton
10-18-2008, 12:50 PM
One other key distinction to making Deming work is job security.

Old school Japan has a til death do us part relationship between company and worker. But Japan is moving to more of an american hire & fire with the tides kind of employment.

You can't have successful Deming implementation with a company that lays off excess workers instead of finding other use within the company.

People are resistant to thinking & improving themselves out of a job. Until the american work culture changes, true Deming enlightenment is not possible.

We can rest a little easier though, because once Japan's economy takes another generational step toward free-market workers, Deming won't work there either.

stude_trucks
10-18-2008, 01:00 PM
Definition of hypocrisy: Thoroughly enjoying driving and building your American hot rod while a foreign car sits in your driveway.

No, that is called living in todays real world and being a smart consumer by not using what little hard earned money you do have to support failing companies that can't seem to get their shit together. If you want to participate in pity purchasing, feel free. I will do the same when they start making better products. Until then, I don't buy their crap. I don't buy crap, I don't care where it comes from or who makes it or how much it costs. I pay good money for good products - more if needed. If you want crap in your driveway fine. I don't want it in mine.

Side note: I kind of like the new Ford Flex for some odd reason and might even go check one out. But, I am of holding my breath for fear of being disappointed as usual.

Unkl Ian
10-18-2008, 01:11 PM
Japan doesn't manufacture nearly as much as they used to.
Good luck finding new electronics actually made in Japan.
Even their car parts are outsourced to lower wage countries,like Korea.

But the rise of the Japanese manufacturing economy shows what is possible.

Now imagine if China ever gets their shit together.

fur biscuit
10-18-2008, 01:16 PM
Japan doesn't manufacture nearly as much as they used to.
Good luck finding new electronics actually made in Japan.
Even their car parts are outsourced to lower wage countries,like Korea.

But the rise of the Japanese manufacturing economy shows what is possible.

Now imagine if China ever gets their shit together.

;) Exactly, but they have enough pent up internal demand to meet prior to conquering the rest of the world.

jdustu
10-18-2008, 01:17 PM
Definition of hypocrisy: Thoroughly enjoying driving and building your American hot rod while a foreign car sits in your driveway.

Is the only reason you like hot rods is that they are American???

One other key distinction to making Deming work is job security.

Old school Japan has a til death do us part relationship between company and worker. But Japan is moving to more of an american hire & fire with the tides kind of employment.

You can't have successful Deming implementation with a company that lays off excess workers instead of finding other use within the company.

People are resistant to thinking & improving themselves out of a job. Until the american work culture changes, true Deming enlightenment is not possible.

We can rest a little easier though, because once Japan's economy takes another generational step toward free-market workers, Deming won't work there either.

That's a terrific point that many people miss. When they first went to lean manufacturing, Toyota eliminated over 10k jobs and the workers walked. They ended up getting Toyota's president to resign, and in exchange for a one time job slash they won employment for life.

One more example of how the Big Three didn't understand how the system worked. They never see the forrest for the trees. Toyota implimented this process from the ground up, and it runs through their design and development, supplier relations, dealer networks, and manufacturing. Detroit tried it ass backwards, and the results have been less than favorable.

Right now Toypta is getting around all that by hiring temp workers en masse, then laying them off when things slow down...it doesn't seem like the public in Japan are thrilled about this development.

cosmo
10-18-2008, 01:25 PM
My personal feeling is that the American car companiers started going downhill after WWII. Reason being: we were the only country that hadn't had our manufacturing plants bombed into oblivion. That meant we were just about the only ones making anything, and certainly anything in quantity. So, to cars specifically: after WWII, the world was car-starved, most companies had not made a car since 1939-40, many cars were destroyed during the war, the rest worn out. The USA was making all the cars it could, and selling them faster than they could be produced. Shortly, it was discovered that quality was not needed as much as quantity. Profit was in the numbers - more = more. Quality could slow down the line, so, stop worrying so much about quality, make it 'good enough' and ship it out. (worst case was AMF-Harley-Davidson in the early 70's, ask the older guys at your dealer). Trouble was, this went on for nearly two decades before many of the foreign economies had recovered enough to produce more than was necessary for domestic needs, or, in the case of Great Britain, war debt had been paid down enough to reduce the need to "Export or Die".

So what happened?? The big three US manufacturers learned that they could bolt together just about any crap, slather some chrome on it and sell the living shit out of it. Planned obsolescence was in-built from the start - no rust-proofing at all, minimal quality control, and a HUGE advertising budget to convince you that you NEEDED a new car every two years. Certainly my father bought into "Bigger, Better' MORE!!!", for we had a new car every two years. And some of them were utter crap, but if you traded every two years, it wasn't so bad...

And what choice had you?? Foreign car dealerships were few and far between. The foreign cars themselves were rathaer staid (Citroën excluded, in the extreme), Mercedes being probably the best alternative, yet they looked 10 years old when you drove off the lot. They held up, sure, but how were you to impress the neighbors?? The British cars were built to a standard of "oh my god, we need money bad, how fast can we get this on the boat".

Sometime during this period, the US manufacturers learned about creature comforts. Highly effective heaters were first, followed by increasingly better air conditioners; power accesories, and a whole raft of things to advertise that were more icing than cake. But they were much more visible than an improved lubrication system, or better braking, and easier to explain than independent rear suspension.

This all came to a very gradual not-quite-ending (yet), once a few folks bought imports, then their neighbors saw and rode in the cars and bought; the importers got better and more dealers; they sold more, and more neighbors saw and rode and bought; they worked to improve quality and started to look more mainstream AND current; more people bought; advertising was discovered; MORE people bought.

Now we are at today. Its now very hard to convince people that you have really changed, because that last Toyota was a really good car, never broke, and is still worth a LOT of money. Tell me again WHY I should buy a Ford/GM/Chrysler??? These are decidedly NOT car people, these are people who really want a toaster to drive to work, a toaster that never needs service, and that brings a good buck come trade-in time.
BTW, anyone recall the utterly disastrous Merkur promo on the Scorpio?? Where they tied resale value to the equivalent Mercedes?? Boy howdy did Ford lose their shirt on THAT one.

Just to back up a bit, and go two wheels: recall that Harley asked for (and got) protective tariffs in the early 80's (the Japs were dumping, that was proved). They (HD) did improve their product (I bought one), but not that much, it still wouldn't go 100,000 without work, sometimes a lot of work, but it WAS better than an AMF, which was even odds it wouldn't even crank when fresh out of the crate. But what they DID do, to a far greater extent, was advertise their product into a lifestyle. Now you HAVE to have that Harley to be that person who is too cool for just about everyone. This was far more successful than R+D on the bikes. But to be honest, it's a lot harder to advertise a car into a lifestyle, yet Ford's doing a damn good job with the Mustang.

This is just my take,
Cosmo

Petejoe
10-18-2008, 01:41 PM
Deming... you young guys read about this man. He did warn the American Companies but they ignored him.
I fail to understand the allegiance to the American Car companies period.
Why do middle class Americans feel the need to buy American cars when the companies greed overshadowed the moral responsiblity to supply a quality product.
They didn't care that I really had nothing but problems with the cars I bought from them in the 70's and 80's. Not really....
Profits going overseas a concern???? why? they deserve it. They reinvest this profit in the American worker by expanding plants in the heartland. Giving us a quality product and a fair paycheck to buy it.
If you're 40 and younger you probably don't understand this feeling...
But if you raised a family in the 70's and 80's you would understand that 30% of your income went into buying and maintaining poor quality vehicles.
Would I like to see those companies improve and profit?? hell yes.. but I said all along its too late for them. They have been warned years and years ago and the investors are very rich (mostly Old Money) They are only concerned about their stock dividend. I say good riddens! They have no idea what its like for people like us.
Officially off my Soapbox.

Unkl Ian
10-18-2008, 01:44 PM
Tell me again WHY I should buy a Ford/GM/Chrysler??? These are decidedly NOT car people,...


Same goes for most of the people calling the shots in Detroit.
Not car people.

They figure ANY business can be run strictly by numbers.
And they only number they really care about,is the one that goes in their pocket.

Money now is worth more than money later.

Thirdyfivepickup
10-18-2008, 02:12 PM
The worst thing I find disappointing in this whole conversation at large and in general is the willingness of American workers to bad mouth other American workers for just trying to make a living and earn as much money as they can. That is just a tool the top uses to gain leverage to manipulate the bottom half to their advantage. Fair enough, part of the game, but if you are in the bottom, stop being taken advantage of and promoting that bullshit. It is pretty hard to listen to people that make $100+/hour complain about people who make $40. If you want to suggest someone else take a pay cut, then you need to be prepared to start that process with yourself and I doubt too many will have the balls to do that.



I know. I have 3 good friends that work for Ford and make good money (all three are HAMBers as well) and it really bugs me that people are calling them out as lazy. (more in Tman's thread not so much in this one)

What would happen if YOU were offered a job to put lug nuts on a car for $40 an hour?

Can you honestly say you would turn it down?

Bitch about things all you want, but don't talk down people (and fellow HAMBers) for taking an honest job, working for an American company, to make a living. :mad:

Bob the Ferret
10-18-2008, 02:25 PM
Can't speak for Detroit but I spent 15 years in the electronics industry where Dr. Demmings was considered "God" . ISO 9000 , which is the world standard now , utilizes many of his priciples . Where would we be if not for people like him ?

battersea boys
10-18-2008, 02:38 PM
hypothetically, would you still buy say a Chinese car if it were as good as a japanese car. But was built disregarding the basic human rights of the workers assembling it. Sort of slave labor if you will.

The point being at what price do you draw the line at quality/price.
because Deming must of disregarded certain conditions with in Japan during the 50,s that made his vision work there.

ergo, You buy American because you safeguard America and as a democracy its probably about as good as it gets........

fur biscuit
10-18-2008, 03:00 PM
I know. I have 3 good friends that work for Ford and make good money (all three are HAMBers as well) and it really bugs me that people are calling them out as lazy. (more in Tman's thread not so much in this one)

What would happen if YOU were offered a job to put lug nuts on a car for $40 an hour?

Can you honestly say you would turn it down?

Bitch about things all you want, but don't talk down people (and fellow HAMBers) for taking an honest job, working for an American company, to make a living. :mad:

I would not say lazy, not more so than any other industry. I think that it comes from a 2 part issue, that would kill any business. The Union vs. Company (this issue is starting to raise its very ugly head right now with the ILWU and the big shipping companies). The Union as it is today is an dinosaur. It's is seriously lacking survival techniques. Upper management is constrained by investors who want thier money now, basically fore going the future, for 15% net net now. Niether is pleasant.

I feel for the line worker, but the Unions have continously made it an all or nothing arguement for to long. Now they are faced with a very real problem and there is no easy way out. For business to function there must be an ability to ebb and flow with demand. Not just flow, everything else be damned.

stude_trucks
10-18-2008, 04:20 PM
ergo, You buy American because you safeguard America and as a democracy its probably about as good as it gets........

Uh, sorry, but buying crappy American cars just to help them which then facilitates their inferior products only serves to prolong and encourage them to continue doing the same. They need some tough love to change their game plan. If they can't win at the game that Americans pretty much invented, then too bad. We need to support and encourage good companies in this country, not bad ones that make bad products. There is no question they can make great products if they really wanted to. No question what so ever. The only question is will they. If and when they do, then I will show them so positive encouragement by buying their products.

Imagine if they had spent only a small portion of their time and effort into working on an advanced car of some sort over the past 10 years instead of draining our wallets with very profitable SUVs, etc. Well, if they had, it wouldn't be too hard to step up the production on those now that we need them. Instead, they were greedy and took advantage of the tax codes and price of fuel to make as much money as they could. So, now that they have done that, they need to dig into their savings accounts and figure out how to regroup. They already have our money and don't need any more of mine until they start making better products.

Also, get off the high horse regarding China too. If American companies could have slave labor today and get away with it, they probably would. I know that is a big stretch of the argument, but probably not as much as thinking all Chinese companies only employ 7 year olds and make them drink acid for lunch. American companies in the late 1800 and early 1900 were not very different from Chinese companies today and they fought tooth and nail the whole way as American workers tried to improve working conditions for themselves. It wasn't easy to get where we are today with our standards and American companies did very little to support it. So, it is not right of them to start bashing China as they try to do the same thing.

American car companies, just design, market and make better shit god damn it and people would buy it. How F'n hard is that to understand? Stop making all that retro Charger, Camaro, SUV bus disguised as a car BS that was great for last year and start making some shit we can use tomorrow. People don't buy shit they needed yesterday. People buy stuff they need now and down the road and the road ain't the same road as it use to be. American car companies are lost and need to figure out how to read the map and get back on track.

58Fridge100
10-18-2008, 04:47 PM
Simply, Deming works when everyone is rowing the boat in one direction. Such as in a war blistered country trying to heal itself.

Deming does not work when you have a series of mini-kingdoms and personal agendas. Hmmm, who would have those?......

Now that Japan has long since turned the corner, most in the know will tell ya that the Japanese have begun to bastardize Deming with their kingdoms and agendas.



yeah-- good way to size it up.

battersea boys
10-18-2008, 05:20 PM
I don,t quite understand your argument you talk of 18th century practices and then of future cars. How many new cars do you need to buy. I see you have a beef with the big three, but I don,t think the Chinese really give any more of a hoot about quality over profit they are just cheaper.
which is what it boils down to.

rustynewyorker
10-18-2008, 05:58 PM
I notice a lot of comments about how companies have a lack of good leadership, that no real leaders can be found to run things.

We don't have leaders because we have to be politically correct and can't ever offend anyone... kids ball games that don't keep score, telling kids it's okay when they say 2+2=28, and things like affirmative action, women's rights and so on turned on us to force companies to use inferior, unqualified people and never criticize them or be charged with racism, sexism, who knows what... until that shit gets done away with, America is going to continue to fall, because any time anyone tries to lead, someone uses political correctness to take them down, or they use it to teach us to not want to get ahead in the first place. As a result you get a bunch of guys in business only looking out for number one, and not worried about screwing people to do it. And the rest are too stupid and inferior to know what's going on or what the real consequences of their screwups will be.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying women and minorities have no place in business - I'm saying only qualified ones do, just the same as everyone else. Those not able to compete with the best need to find something else that better suits their abilities. No one is entitled to things on the basis of race, gender, or sexuality. Those who have superior abilities and knowledge should not have to take a backseat to those who do not, just because the one who does not looks different.

I'm sure a lot of people in the auto industry knew Deming is right, but are unable to do anything about it because they'd have to be politically incorrect and if they get too un-PC, they lose their job.

Mark in Japan
10-18-2008, 09:16 PM
Pleeeease do NOT use Japan as a benchmark for "modern", "efficient", "intelligent","successful","visionary" ANYTHING.

Their biggest strength is their biggest weakness.....TOTAL & UTTER absence of imagination and free thought.

They pay "communication coaches" from the west to teach them "how to get the idiots at the Shanghai plant to do better quality for half of last month's already cheap price".

Their ONLY tool of negotiation is "what discount can you give me, coz we CAN'T increase prices".
"When was your last price increase?"
"we've NEVER had one (looks confused)"
"how long have you worked here?"
"Im NEW here...only NINE YEARS"

If they can't screw-down the supplier, there ONLY other tactic left is to screw-down their own workers, who already work 12-16 hours a day for 8 hours not-exactly-amazing pay.

An auto parts worker (called "freeters".....$12 an hour casual labour IN Japan.....union MY ASS!) hired a truck 6 months ago, specifically to drive into Tokyo and mow down the biggest crowd he could find, then jumped out to knife anyone who came to their aid.......system is working just fine!

http://www.japantoday.com/category/kuchikomi/view/mass-despair-permeates-working-class

eg. McT rejected ONE CENT plastic fuel-line clips from the local arm of a GLOBAL, centuries-old parts supplier, coz, after they got one of their 'sub-plants' in China to do inspections, they found ONE PIECE per MILLION that had APPEARANCE defects (an air bubble). So the WHOLE product line was defected, with the intimidation of TOTAL "dis-accreditation" for the supplier's COMPLETE RANGE if they don't spend 5 times what the product is worth to make it meet McT's "Quaritee Standard".

These are the SAME clips you will find under Benz/Audi/VW/BMW etc !

It doesn't take much vision to see that it won't take long for this approach to lead to the end of offering "cheap, high quality" cars.

America's advantage was always

imagination, vision......ART, if you will.

Daring boldness, even if it leads to the occasional failure (Edsel).

Your overly PC, "namby-pamby", "I'll sue you if you don't agree my pig is a beauty queen when I put lipstick on her" modern attitude totally undermines the daring expressionism that MADE America.

In Australia today, when people talk about things being over-legislated....its referred to as becoming "too Americanised".
It was a VERY proud day when Australia's 60-ish struggling Starbux stores announced their 'cessation of business' a couple of months ago.

C'mon America....lets get back to those SIX-CYLINDER 59 Chevy Highway-cruising SPACEships that made young boys ALL OVER the WORLD dream of what COULD BE!

Henry Ford/Thomas Edison/NASA etc could NOT afford the litigation insurance they would need today to DARE to build a DREAM.........THERE's yer problem.

Unkl Ian
10-18-2008, 10:00 PM
The big dreams have died. The life was sucked out of them.



Now the only "dreams" involve a large number of dead presidents.
People know the price of everything,and the value of nothing.

warbird
10-18-2008, 10:54 PM
Several years ago we were intro'd to Lean Six Sigma (LSS) where I work, a sort-of procees improvement concept intended (IMO) to streamline any process thru elimination of unnecessary steps in order to reduce time without sacrificing quality. To keep this short, we were given a process to work & see if improvements could be made to it. We spent weeks on it and came up with what we thought was an improved process that could easily be implemented. We presented it to our "sponsor" (mgmt). Our process improvement was flawed, it wasn't correct as presented, perhaps you should -----, or maybe you could -----... this list of "why it won't work" seemed nearly endless. Seems they already had an answer to our project that wasn't same as our results! This concept (process improvement) can and will work, but only if embraced by those who have a desire to make it work. I've seen it work in production plants. Very similar to why Deming's and other managment tools haven't worked - not that they don't, as much as some don't want 'em to work. Anybody else had similar experiences?

Oh yeah, been there and done that... Reminds me of why I was so glad to leave the place 5 yrs. ago

gotwood
10-19-2008, 12:04 AM
It has been proven that Japanese car Co's rule with advertising.

There was a pole in one of the mags that proved the point. They ask questions to car buyers such as which is the most reliable, safest, etc. 90% of the answers were do to perception and wrong. most said Volvo was the safest and most data has them ranked like 3rd. Caddy was the most reliable not Lexus. People buy cars on what is told to them over and over.

Ask the Toyota owner who had to change his tranny and engine upper half with 30k and he will boast at the cost of repairs and tell you how reliable the car is. Ask a Chevy owner with 75k who had to change an alternator and they will say they will never buy an American car again.

That Denso alternator is the best thing when installed in a Japanese car but put the exact part in a US car and it is junk.

Japanese cars were originally bought because they were cheap and that was it. They were so poorly made they couldn't even make them up the hills in N Cali but they sold on price.

Yeah , buy so called save the earth high mile cars from Countries that have zero EPA regs and are polluting the world?? Make sense?? China still selling our kids toys with lead paint???

US engineers designed 90% of the innovations still used in the auto Industry problem is greed from unions and mgt has wrecked our golden child. We are getting beat with our own designs. Yes union workers the rest of us pay for our medical benefits and pay $75k in College tuition to make what you do installing lug nuts. There are workers that deserve their pay but others there for the ride.

Can anyone on here name what cars Ford or Lincoln currently make?? And we are car guys. Ask a 21 year old accountant looking for a new car?? Honda Civic and he doesn't even now why??

We have nobody to blame but ourselves. And yes BUY AMERICAN!!!! when ever you can that is where you live!! Actually buy based on quality that you can see and force these countries to pay taxes and fees when they do not import our products and the playing field will even out.

I Drag
10-19-2008, 12:35 AM
I don't get this "all the money goes back to Japan" stuff. If you think Toyota and others are so profitable, you can buy stock in these companies tomorrow and the profits will go right to YOU. There is no such thing as a foreign or domestic company if they are publicly traded. Sheesh.

39cent
10-19-2008, 03:00 AM
Demming was a total genius.


Detroit's failure has little to do with government,
everything to do with "Management" ,"Leadership" and "Salesmanship"; or lack there of.

I keep hearing about unions and bad quality workers and japanese are better and their cars are so much better etc. lets look at some of this. I worked in the nuke power industry I think most would agee they need NRC. gov.regulations. Same as FAA, etc.etc. The unions are hardly affecting things like they used to. They were behind the curve in wages since the 60,s,however they got better benefits, and workplace safety, If the company just paid me a wage, to just cover my expenses, house payment, utilities, transportation, and all that it takes to raise a family today, it surely wudnt be a Mcdonalds wage.I bought a new car in 1972 a ranchero, loaded, it was 5k total with tax,license,and loan interest. My house cost 28 k.nice place in the hills overlooking the city, so divide that cost by my ranchero cost. And as for the japanese cars they didnt have to do research on thier cars , they just gathered up cars from all over the world and copied what they wanted. Nobody built transmissions as good as ours we shared our engineering with them. Today the auto industry is automated, everything is engineered to install in units, and its mostly electronically controlled I have to say the japanese did good with our help for them after the WAR. they built new factories and ours were all old prewar factories. Plus we supplied them with military protection.I was in the Navy. [about 10 yrs after Deming was there]. was assigned to check on jap workers on the ship during o,hauls. Kept noticing a lot of them whispering when i came around. turned out they were 'sippin the saki' down in the holds. anybody ever heard that before? the mess we are in today in our economy is because there was NO ONE WATCHING THE STORE. No regulations or not using the regs we have. If we are ever goin to get out of this mess we shud stop blaming stereotypes of the past. remmber what pogo said, 'we have found the enemy and it is us'!

battersea boys
10-19-2008, 04:15 AM
As said whispering campaigns, johny singh from mumbai (now dallas) says his uncle patel swears by his hyundai, so if auntie gupta wants to get a new car go down to the honda showroom. Oh, and tell cousin jitesh that the new toyota pickup has automatic. 25 years of that and here you are today,

davejenk
10-19-2008, 05:43 AM
I read this in a Sydney paper today and thought it fits in quite well.

'And for our final word on the economay, let's go to American investment analyst and entrepreneur Dr Marc Faber, who concluded his monthly bulletin with the following words. " The Federal Governmant is sending each of us a $600 rebate. If we spend that money at Wal-Mart, the money goes to China. If we spend it on gasoline it goes to the Arabs. If we buy a computer it will go to the India. If we purchase fruit and vegetables it will go to Mexica, Honduras and Guatemala. If we purchase a good car it will go to Germany. If we purchase useless crap it will go to Taiwan and none of it will help the American economy. The only way to keep that money here at home is to spend it on prositutes and beer, since these are the only products still produced in US. I'll be doing my part."

zman
10-19-2008, 05:56 AM
Just a note that many universities do not allow students to use Wikipedia as a reference. It is not a credible source.

Use at your own risk.

That's why you follow the sources listed. It's like reading someones paper, sometimes you need to check where the info came from. Universities just don't want people only using Wikipedia...

Skate Fink
10-19-2008, 06:16 AM
Deming was a genius........he found a way to teach common sense to educated people. THAT'S why he wasn't embraced in this country!! The "egos" wouldn't allow...

As far as "Buy American".....I took a grievance handling class at the Chrysler Training Facility in Newark, DE when I took a Shop Steward position on my job. It was a little uncomfortable driving my Mazda p/u onto the lot with all of the Rams and Durangos until I noticed that most of the "Union Brothers" were wearing Nikes made in Asian sweat shops. Talk is cheap.......... The leaders of American Industry have sold our soul for greed. Tariffs and Fair Trade agreements AND a consumer demand for quality products would go a long way toward helping but greed on behalf of the Managemant AND the workers have created this mess. LIVE WITH IT!

raceron1120
10-19-2008, 06:31 AM
Reading Sunday morning in a Detroit area paper about the propable merger of Chrysler by GM and the worries of Chrysler employees, production workers and even dealership folks who'll likely be out of work if (or when?) it happens. Seems the prediction is GM will "merge" Jeep and maybe minivans, then "merge away" the rest of the company due to redundancy of product. Pretty serious. I've seen the blame game about mergers,takeovers, etc; it's nobody's, but everybody's fault. Unions aren't the only problem but they must share it. When times are good all should benefit, just as equally all should concede when times are tough. Do they? It's almost as if they're parasites feeding on something that can no longer support them, and once they've sucked the life out of what made them fat they'll move to another victim. They've all become so bureaucratic and political that their primary concerns no longer focus on people or product. And I agree with what many others on this post have said - these are NOT car people doing this. Pay raises, benefits etc. are great when times are good and many agreements seem to focus only on the good times aspect of business. But when things slow down, management and the unions need to focus on the same issues. Meaning scaling back if necessary. I'm not close to them but it seems the mgmt and union fatcats aren't the ones that suffer when times are bad, but I bet they always get their "share" of the fat when times are good. All wages, bennies, etc. should be shared appropriately throughout all economic cycles, with none of the mgmt or union folks making more than maybe 10% of the highest paid bluecollar worker - EVER.

Just 2 cents' worth - or wait 1.5 cents. . . :(

Think I'm gonna plan a trip over to Auburn Hills to the Chrysler Tech Center/Museum, who knows how much longer we'll be able to?

decker
10-19-2008, 01:40 PM
good read... the modern corporate mentality reminded me of this thread... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=291370&highlight=vice+grips+china

i'm the worst kind of shareholder they could have... i'm the consumer... i'll spend good money if the product is worth good money... outsource sheerly in the name of profit and you'll lose my business.



(it's also interesting to see the compensation differential between japanese ceo's and american ceo's... and then the difference between them, middle management and their workers... all you have to do is turn on the news lately to fire up on all 8 of my cylinders on that particular topic)

Mark in Japan
10-19-2008, 06:47 PM
(it's also interesting to see the compensation differential between japanese ceo's and american ceo's... and then the difference between them, middle management and their workers... all you have to do is turn on the news lately to fire up on all 8 of my cylinders on that particular topic)

DEFINATELY true....but these comparisons never take into account the dodgy kickback and 'gift-giving' systems that pervade the ENTIRE Japanese system.
They just elected the head of a concreting dynasty (that got their start using slave labour in WWII) to Prime Minister, in a country where they spend 12% of GDP on concreting over nature in the name of "construction", and NOBODY sees ANY problem with that!

...the US just has more 'accuracy in accounting' and regard for rejecting clearly false figures when publicly reported.

donnie
10-19-2008, 07:10 PM
I have not read all of the replies to this thread, but my memory seems to be different than most of yours on how Japan get into the states and started selling more cars. I remember the 70s when one could only buy 5 bucks of gas at a time, of course it was on 59 cent per gallon at the time.
I remember the Honda's and Datsun being sold here where not very good autos. But they where small and gas efficiencient and cheap, unlike the big 3 cars. The big 3 tried to match the imports with the pintos and chevettes, etc. which where worse cars than the imports. The imports quality keep going up and the big 3 keep getting worse. But they where years late in trying to make small good cars, they where trying to pay catch up, just like now.

I drive 45 miles to work. I needed a good quality car with good gas mileage. I bought an import, it was made in Japan. I get 45 miles a gallon. It has 83000 miles on it with no issues yet. What American car could I have bought to equal this?

My point is they are just playing catch up again.

cosmo
10-19-2008, 07:16 PM
The only way to keep that money here at home is to spend it on prositutes and beer, since these are the only products still produced in US. I'll be doing my part."

Except....the largest American-owned beer company is Samual Adams, and most of the whores 'round here (Chicago) are Polish and Mexican.

Cosmo

36-3window
10-19-2008, 07:18 PM
you know what? in 2-3 years it won't make any difference

Unkl Ian
10-19-2008, 07:48 PM
(it's also interesting to see the compensation differential
between japanese ceo's and american ceo's...
and then the difference between them, middle management and their workers...



Also interesting to compare the # of "managers" /100 workers.

North American corporations are top heavy with over educated
paper shuffler morons who have never gotten their hands dirty.

Industries used to be run by people who knew that business inside out, because they worked their way up the ladder.

Now they are run by bean counters and stuffed shirts.
The product going out the door is an after thought.

23 bucket-t
10-19-2008, 07:48 PM
The main reason why Detroit failed, is because they are not selling cars to the youths. Most of them like the imports. They are the next generation and if Detroit built cars that the kids would want then they would not be in this predicament.

Rusty Karz
10-19-2008, 08:59 PM
The problem with the U.S. Auto industry is not the unions(I don't belong to one)or even the quality of the new cars(it is pretty good)but the fact that the car companies are now longer run by "Car Guys" but instead by accountants. The bean counters don't give a rats behind about the cars or the people who build them but only about the numbers. There is no passion for the product itself. Seems to be the case for most American companies. When I was a kid in the 50's "Made In Japan" was a derisive term. Deming changed all that in an amazingly short time but he had the Japanese Government backing his ideas. Not likely to happen here. Too much pressure to keep the stock prices up no matter what.

Matt Franklin
10-19-2008, 10:02 PM
Great book. I read it several years ago.

There was a study done by MIT, and the resulting book "The Machine That Changed the World" is pretty amazing. The hubris that Big Three management showed throughout the eighties and early nineties is unreal. They made a lot of "attempts" to lean out, but mostly they were pr moves that inevitably failed because they weren't rooted in the right philosphy. The UAW isn't without blame, but the Japan auto industry has a strong union as well. Labor needs a voice.

As far as buying american, the '06 Ram I leased didn't even have enough domestic content to be considered "domestic", and the toyota camry has more domestic content than any other car in its class.

-Josh

manyolcars
10-19-2008, 10:19 PM
think its bad now?
wait til obama starts 'spreading the wealth around'

Mazooma1
10-19-2008, 10:21 PM
think its bad now?
wait til obama starts 'spreading the wealth around'


Well, it didn't take long to inject some politics in this...
take your rants elsewhere...hot rods, here

arkiehotrods
10-19-2008, 10:24 PM
The problem with the U.S. Auto industry is not the unions(I don't belong to one)or even the quality of the new cars(it is pretty good)but the fact that the car companies are now longer run by "Car Guys" but instead by accountants. The bean counters don't give a rats behind about the cars or the people who build them but only about the numbers. There is no passion for the product itself. Seems to be the case for most American companies. When I was a kid in the 50's "Made In Japan" was a derisive term. Deming changed all that in an amazingly short time but he had the Japanese Government backing his ideas. Not likely to happen here. Too much pressure to keep the stock prices up no matter what.


I agree. Rick Wagoner, the moron at the helm of GM, is a financial guy, definitely clueless when it comes to what people want...just look at what GM has been offering since he's been at the helm

What GM needs to do is fire Wagoner and turn Bob Lutz loose to create some cars worth owning.

50dodge4x4
10-19-2008, 11:18 PM
you know what? in 2-3 years it won't make any difference

After all this discusion, we get this one with no explanation? Last I heard, the world was suppose to end in 2012, guess that is the 2-3 years he's refering to?

The discusion has been interesting. Some great insite and much new-to-me info has turned up here, though I have to wonder about how accurate some of it is.

The bottom line is, being short of funding to start a new American auto plant on my own, there is little I can do to change the course that has been set. I doubt the probability of me buying (or not buying) one new car is going to alter the future auto industry much. The course its on was set many years ago, most of us figured it was just a matter of time before it came to where it is now.

I try to buy American made products as often as I can. This day and age its hard to distingush what is american made and what is not, the company names mean very little anymore and the quality on most things suck reguardless on where its made. Is it more important to buy things "made in the USA, with forgien componets" or something "made elsewhere with american made componets"? I need to buy a pair of safety toed work shoes real soon. I found a pair that have "made in the USA" on the lable that are $100. They are pretty plain and pretty heavy. The "made elsewhere" shoes with the same compasny name on them are $49 and they are lighter weight with a bit of style. Bottom line is going to be which one is more confortable when I try them on.

I hope the politically correct crap goes away soon. You come to my place and you hear the truth. If you don't want to hear the truth, don't ask, and don't come here. I don't need you. Gene

fiat128
10-20-2008, 01:02 AM
Wow, Deming on the H.A.M.B. Wonders never cease. Guess today was my day for my worlds to collide, I just didn't think work and here would come together. I'll have to go back and read this thread completely since I have about 900 lbs. of quality books on the shelf behind me. As for statistical process control, one thing I have learned in the 15 or so years I've been working with it is that you can't get people who don't want to use it to even understand it. I can pretty well size up a guy and figure out how much to tell him about it after just a few minutes talking about it.

battersea boys
10-20-2008, 02:08 AM
After all this discusion, we get this one with no explanation? Last I heard, the world was suppose to end in 2012, guess that is the 2-3 years he's refering to?

The discusion has been interesting. Some great insite and much new-to-me info has turned up here, though I have to wonder about how accurate some of it is.

The bottom line is, being short of funding to start a new American auto plant on my own, there is little I can do to change the course that has been set. I doubt the probability of me buying (or not buying) one new car is going to alter the future auto industry much. The course its on was set many years ago, most of us figured it was just a matter of time before it came to where it is now.

I try to buy American made products as often as I can. This day and age its hard to distingush what is american made and what is not, the company names mean very little anymore and the quality on most things suck reguardless on where its made. Is it more important to buy things "made in the USA, with forgien componets" or something "made elsewhere with american made componets"? I need to buy a pair of safety toed work shoes real soon. I found a pair that have "made in the USA" on the lable that are $100. They are pretty plain and pretty heavy. The "made elsewhere" shoes with the same compasny name on them are $49 and they are lighter weight with a bit of style. Bottom line is going to be which one is more confortable when I try them on.

I hope the politically correct crap goes away soon. You come to my place and you hear the truth. If you don't want to hear the truth, don't ask, and don't come here. I don't need you. Gene

if you can get a us made timberland get em they last 3 times longer,stitching, sole, comfort..

decker
10-20-2008, 06:45 AM
I try to buy American made products as often as I can. This day and age its hard to distingush what is american made and what is not, the company names mean very little anymore and the quality on most things suck reguardless on where its made. Is it more important to buy things "made in the USA, with forgien componets" or something "made elsewhere with american made componets"? I need to buy a pair of safety toed work shoes real soon. I found a pair that have "made in the USA" on the lable that are $100. They are pretty plain and pretty heavy. The "made elsewhere" shoes with the same compasny name on them are $49 and they are lighter weight with a bit of style. Bottom line is going to be which one is more confortable when I try them on. Gene

US Made Redwings or Weinbrenners my friend... and they'll last for YEARS http://www.redwingshoes.com/
http://www.weinbrennerusa.com/

49coupe
10-20-2008, 08:18 AM
The other thing that has really hurt N.A. automakers is the availability of cheap gas in the US. Cheap gas means the tastes of American car buyers is different from the rest of the world, hence the need for two completely different lines of cars and trucks. The Europeans don't have the same issue. You can sell a European car in the US, but you can't sell an American car in Europe. They're too big, use too much fuel and don't like cornering. I wouldn't want to drive through the Swiss Alps in a Crown Vic or try keeping up to a VW Golf on the Autobahn with a Lincoln Towncar or parking a Lincoln Navigator in a Paris underground garage.

That's why the Japanese have not been that successful in Europe. They're geared towards N. American tastes and driving. Honda didn't really make too many inroads in Europe until it developed a diesel and offered wagons.

If US tastes align with the rest of the world, the Big 3 can then actually develop "world" cars and engines that require only minor modifications for local regulations. That would save 100s millions in tooling and design.

fur biscuit
10-20-2008, 09:27 AM
[quote=fiat128;3221275]Wow, Deming on the H.A.M.B. Wonders never cease. quote]

Can't expect much more for me? ;) :D

Unkl Ian
10-20-2008, 09:28 AM
Detroit was pushing gas guzzling SUVs, in part, because
they were not covered by the CAFE requirements.

CAFE only applies to cars. A big barge that seats 8
with every possible option is considered a truck.
Even the PT Cruiser is considered a truck.

The rules for "trucks" are different, even for things like side impact testing.
So the definition of "truck" got stretched and distorted.
---
The Ford Focus was supposed to be a "world car", with healthy aftermarket support.
Heard a little about it here just before it came out, then nothing.

fur biscuit
10-20-2008, 09:49 AM
Detroit was pushing gas guzzling SUVs, in part, because
they were not covered by the CAFE requirements.

CAFE only applies to cars. A big barge that seats 8
with every possible option is considered a truck.
Even the PT Cruiser is considered a truck.

The rules for "trucks" are different, even for things like side impact testing.
So the definition of "truck" got stretched and distorted.
---
The Ford Focus was supposed to be a "world car", with healthy aftermarket support.
Heard a little about it here just before it came out, then nothing.

Detroit was "pushing" gas guzzling SUV's, because that is what the public wanted. SUV's today are the muscle cars of the late 60's eary 70's.

Detroit knows how to sell what the country wants, and they do it very well. It just doesn't seem to have a good handle on hindsite. It got cuaght with its pants down this time...badly

In the first gas crunch, Japan got a foot hold. This time they took the market. The Big 3 could be blamed for riding the wave to far. bad market analysis?

battersea boys
10-20-2008, 10:31 AM
Here,s a thought

why not let the big three go under,develop new technologies electric, compressed air , hydrogen ,etc. For the meantime import and tax new cars from where ever.

Then there will be no reliance on the staple base, and in the interim it would create an automotive renaissance handing the initiative back to the designers/engineers

Britain lost its car industry 20 years ago we survived...............

fur biscuit
10-20-2008, 10:41 AM
Here,s a thought

why not let the big three go under,develop new technologies electric, compressed air , hydrogen ,etc. For the meantime import and tax new cars from where ever.

Then there will be no reliance on the staple base, and in the interim it would create an automotive renaissance handing the initiative back to the designers/engineers

Britain lost its car industry 20 years ago we survived...............

yes, it went through consolidation in the late 50/60's, receivership and liquidation in the 70's. And sold off piecemeal in the 90's.

ChuckleHead_Al
10-20-2008, 11:00 AM
I work for the Air Force as a mechanic, and it seems that a lot of what Mr. Deming talks about can be applied to other industries especially in the AF aircraft maintenance.

Institute leadership (see Point 12 and Ch. 8 of "Out of the Crisis"). The aim of supervision should be to help people and machines and gadgets to do a better job. Supervision of management is in need of overhaul, as well as supervision of production workers.
Drive out fear, so that everyone may work effectively for the company. (See Ch. 3 of "Out of the Crisis")

ChuckleHead_Al
10-20-2008, 11:03 AM
I work for the Air Force as a mechanic, and it seems that a lot of what Mr. Deming talks about can be applied to other industries especially in the AF aircraft maintenance.

Institute leadership (see Point 12 and Ch. 8 of "Out of the Crisis"). The aim of supervision should be to help people and machines and gadgets to do a better job. Supervision of management is in need of overhaul, as well as supervision of production workers.
Drive out fear, so that everyone may work effectively for the company. (See Ch. 3 of "Out of the Crisis")

Supervisors are put into positions of leadership through the "Good ol boy" system..

Unkl Ian
10-20-2008, 11:08 AM
Here,s a thought

why not let the big three go under,develop new technologies electric, compressed air , hydrogen ,etc. For the meantime import and tax new cars from where ever.

Then there will be no reliance on the staple base, and in the interim it would create an automotive renaissance handing the initiative back to the designers/engineers

Britain lost its car industry 20 years ago we survived...............



The current "automotive renaissance" in Britain is busy doing what ?

After the big names went under, what happened to the "motorcycle renaissance" in Britain ?

----
Is there anything actually manufactured in Britain these days ?

battersea boys
10-20-2008, 11:27 AM
The current "automotive renaissance" in Britain is busy doing what ?

After the big names went under, what happened to the "motorcycle renaissance" in Britain ?

----
Is there anything actually manufactured in Britain these days ?

I meant do as I say, not do as I do

ynottayblock
10-20-2008, 12:08 PM
Jobs are huge. Shoot, Toyota even opened up a design center in Ann Arbor...They will soon have a vehicle engineered and built completely in the USA.

For years GM and Ford took those "profits" and invested them overseas anyways....that's gotten them pretty far, eh? And Chrysler was owned by a German company for the better part of the last decade, now they're owned by a bunch of corporate raiders that don't have CLUE when it comes to the auto industry. They had all had to stop shouting "buy american" because THEY no longer bought american. Parts from the cheapest suppliers in china or brazil, I.T. sourced to india, ect. ect.



Home Depot is american owned, how is that the same? And a retailer isn't quite comparable to manufacturer.

I do find it funny when I see a guy with a "BUY AMERICAN" sticker on his canadian built ford coming out of wal-mart. Do they even sell anything made in american anymore?

That's kind of a different topic: American's love cheap shit. Harbor Freight and Wal-mart are two of china's biggest buyers. They won't pay for top quality, they want mass produced crap.

you sir are speaking my language. Ive seen more of thos bumperstickers in a wal-mart parking lot than anywhere else...go figure. Also what bugs me about the whole buy american cars thing is most of the parts come from suppliers and most of those suppliers produce off-shore so regardless your money isnt going back into america

Definition of hypocrisy: Thoroughly enjoying driving and building your American hot rod while a foreign car sits in your driveway.

as a canadian your kinda boned there since they are all imports to us, unless we all drive bricklins

JDHolmes
10-20-2008, 12:33 PM
American auto manufacturers are in trouble for a lot of reasons, bad quality, poor design, redundant design, labor. Right now, more money is spent on retirement benefits than on most anything else. Added to that high labor costs with ridiculous contracts forced on them by labor unions and you get the current situation.

People wonder why USAM outsource overseas but really don't understand the basic principles of a corporation and economics.

A corporation is in business for one thing and that is to maximize profit. Economics demand that the company outsource to the lowest bidder for maximum profit. When labor whines about losing jobs, go look in the mirror. Why would any company in their right mind pay the second highest income tax rate IN THE WORLD and some of the highest hourly wages in the world at the same time? That is poor business sense.

Then couple high costs with poor quality and Americans are running in droves to imports. Higher quality, lower cost. Avg Toyota labor rate is $15. Avg Detroit wages is $32 (last I heard).

fur biscuit
10-20-2008, 12:41 PM
The current "automotive renaissance" in Britain is busy doing what ?

After the big names went under, what happened to the "motorcycle renaissance" in Britain ?

----
Is there anything actually manufactured in Britain these days ?


What is this renaissance you speak of?

Jaguar: TATA group, India
Mini: BMW, Ze Fazerland
MG: Oklahoma?/ China
Land Rover/ Range Rover/ Rover: Ford
Aston Martin: Ford, UK?
Morgan: UK
McLaren: UK

did I miss anything...of any useful volume?

Devin
10-20-2008, 12:44 PM
I believe that as a result of a period of great affluence, Americans have slowly become complacent and have developed some sort of sense of entitlement to our high standard of living. We have in large, forgotten about the sacrifices as well as the accomplishments of "the great generation". We are now faced with having a new president that will create the greatest "mommy government" ever known to the United States.

In our current state of despair and decline, I'm hoping that these adverse circumstances will re-invigorate our will, desire, ingenuity, resourcefulness and competitiveness which made our country great. These times (in a lesser degree) mirror the age of the great depression followed by mass warfare. If we get fed-up enough, we have the opportunity and ability to restore the USA to its fullest potential and power.

Sho Nuff
10-20-2008, 01:08 PM
Does it make sense that you would want your biggest customers to lose there jobs? That is basically what has happened. Most of us all understand the basic principles of a buisness is to make money. But the real problem here is that auto companies and all the other companies that outsource their labor are losing buisness because they have got rid of the employees that were buying their products. Even Henry Ford understood this. He made the price of the Model T cheap and paid his employees well so the could afford the cars they were producing. Instant customers.

Now we give all the good paying jobs away to other countries to exploit their low labor cost. These people who work in this factories are just working to survive. They hardly have enough to eat let alone buy the good they are making. Meanwhile, here in the states, a guy who was working the floor at a Ford factory has lost his job. Now this guy was buying a new car every couple of years. And more times than not he was probably buying the brand that he was producing. Now they have lost this guy as a customer. And they've lost all customers in all they have laid off.

Buisness is as simple as supply and demand. You can have all the supply you want at a low price but if you don't have demand it dosen't mean a damn thing.

And this goes even deeper into the economy. Because all these "good paying" factory jobs are gone, the economy of the local area also suffers. Local buisness close up because the people that lived in these areas can't afford to spend money like they use to. Vacation spots lose money and trickle down to everyone eventually. Local and Federal Governments lose tax base for schools and roads. Leaving the rest of us that are still working to cough up more maney for services.

But this is not just the fault of the big three. Our government is also to blame. The Free Trade Agreement we have in place does not work. It's not free. People, tax payers, are paying with there jobs. Free does translate to equal. The quality of life in our country is suffering because of this. If all countries paid the same labor rate it would be Fair and Equal.

Anyway, I'll stop ranting.

For the record, I'm NOT an out of work auto worker. I do live in the Detroit metro area and am seeing the effects that this is causing.

Mazooma1
10-20-2008, 01:21 PM
Americans didn't read or remember about the Roman Empire.

After Pearl Harbor, we were asked to enlist in the military and buy war bonds.
We grew our vegetables in our "Victory Gardens", were rationed gasoline, shoes, tires and meat. We came together as a Nation at war with a common purpose. We were one.

After 9-11 we were told to go shopping.

The USA is in tremendous debt to our rival, Communist China.
They are building a military force that is massive.

We even have to import much of the steel that we use. We are now dependant on outside sources for the very materials that we would need to defend ourselves.

The days of the great American auto industry are over. We will continue to build cars, but the market will forever now have to be shared with other countries.

Americans have been lost in leisure and consumption for 40 years.

At times like 9-11 or after a natural disaster such as a wildfire, flood or earthquake, people step up and behave in remarkable fashion. All political or social resentments vanish and are replaced with decent hard working, generous, humane and caring people.
We are at a time like that now and the sooner we start to behave as ONE the better our chances of getting back on track.

battersea boys
10-20-2008, 01:33 PM
What is this renaissance you speak of?

Jaguar: TATA group, India
Mini: BMW, Ze Fazerland
MG: Oklahoma?/ China
Land Rover/ Range Rover/ Rover: Ford
Aston Martin: Ford, UK?
Morgan: UK
McLaren: UK

did I miss anything...of any useful volume?

The Point!
I wasn,t talking about what Britain does, If you paid attention, I was joining in the debate,but you jumped the gun(as usual),there,s plenty wrong in the UK , please evaluate what is written clearly before responding

thank you

zman
10-20-2008, 01:52 PM
Chuckie (http://www.moviemistakes.com/name2681): Are we gonna have a problem here?
Clark: No, no, no, no! There's no problem here. I was just hoping you might give me some insight into the evolution of the market economy in the southern colonies. My contention is that prior to the Revolutionary War, the economic modalities, especially in the southern colonies, could be most aptly described as agrarian precapitalist.
Chuckie (http://www.moviemistakes.com/name2681): Let me tell you something -
Will (http://www.moviemistakes.com/name2476): Of course that's your contention. You're a first-year grad student; you just got finished reading some Marxian historian, Pete Garrison probably. You're gonna be convinced of that 'till next month when you get to James Lemon. Then you're going to be talking about how the economies of Virginia and Pennsylvania were entrepreneurial and capitalist way back in 1740. That's gonna last until next year; you're gonna be in here regurgitating Gordon Wood, talkin' about, you know, the pre-revolutionary utopia and the capital-forming effects of military mobilization.
Clark: Well, as a matter of fact, I won't, because Wood drastically underestimates the impact of social -
Will (http://www.moviemistakes.com/name2476): "Wood drastically underestimates the impact of social distinctions predicated upon wealth, especially inherited wealth"? You got that from Vickers' "Work in Essex County," page 98, right? Yeah, I read that too. Were you gonna plagiarize the whole thing for us? Do you have any thoughts of your own on this matter? Or do you, is that your thing, you come into a bar, read some obscure passage and then pretend - you pawn it off as your own, as your own idea just to impress some girls, embarrass my friend?
Clark: [looks down in shame]
Will (http://www.moviemistakes.com/name2476): See, the sad thing about a guy like you is, in 50 years you're gonna start doin' some thinkin' on your own and you're going to come up with the fact that there are two certainties in life: one, don't do that, and two, you dropped 150 grand on a f***in' education you could have got for a dollar fifty in late charges at the public library!


:eek::D:D:D:p

fur biscuit
10-20-2008, 02:39 PM
The Point!
I wasn,t talking about what Britain does, If you paid attention, I was joining in the debate,but you jumped the gun(as usual),there,s plenty wrong in the UK , please evaluate what is written clearly before responding

thank you


darn gun jumpers. you didn't bring up the renaisance. What maybe demonstated here is the example of a national automotive industry cycle works. We have growth, failure, consolidation. We shall watch and see how the US comes out of this, again.

decker
10-20-2008, 04:21 PM
I'm rarely an optimist but on the bright side maybe this means Ford will be forced to start making brand spanking new Model T's again in a few years... then "A"'s... and in 2032... brand new '32's... then '33's, 34's and so on. GM and everyone else can follow suit. I can't wait to buy my new Willy's Coupe right off the showroom floor, get the nose jacked up in the air, gut the interior, slide in a cage... then run down to the Oldsmobile dealer to pick up a new engine, trans and rear end... of course then I'll have to get a blower... can you sense my excitement yet?!?!?!

I wonder if they'll be the same price as back then considering the devalued dollar and all? :)

Let's hope all of the domestics get their shit together... seriously... and soon!!! :rolleyes:

decker
10-20-2008, 04:35 PM
Does it make sense that you would want your biggest customers to lose there jobs? That is basically what has happened. Most of us all understand the basic principles of a buisness is to make money. But the real problem here is that auto companies and all the other companies that outsource their labor are losing buisness because they have got rid of the employees that were buying their products. Even Henry Ford understood this. He made the price of the Model T cheap and paid his employees well so the could afford the cars they were producing. Instant customers.

Now we give all the good paying jobs away to other countries to exploit their low labor cost. These people who work in this factories are just working to survive. They hardly have enough to eat let alone buy the good they are making. Meanwhile, here in the states, a guy who was working the floor at a Ford factory has lost his job. Now this guy was buying a new car every couple of years. And more times than not he was probably buying the brand that he was producing. Now they have lost this guy as a customer. And they've lost all customers in all they have laid off.

Buisness is as simple as supply and demand. You can have all the supply you want at a low price but if you don't have demand it dosen't mean a damn thing.

And this goes even deeper into the economy. Because all these "good paying" factory jobs are gone, the economy of the local area also suffers. Local buisness close up because the people that lived in these areas can't afford to spend money like they use to. Vacation spots lose money and trickle down to everyone eventually. Local and Federal Governments lose tax base for schools and roads. Leaving the rest of us that are still working to cough up more maney for services.

But this is not just the fault of the big three. Our government is also to blame. The Free Trade Agreement we have in place does not work. It's not free. People, tax payers, are paying with there jobs. Free does translate to equal. The quality of life in our country is suffering because of this. If all countries paid the same labor rate it would be Fair and Equal.

Anyway, I'll stop ranting.

For the record, I'm NOT an out of work auto worker. I do live in the Detroit metro area and am seeing the effects that this is causing.

http://web.mit.edu/ryangray/Public/Gnus/thumbs_up.jpg
"people that aren't working or that are in low paying jobs don't buy shit"... and that lesson seems to have been lost somehow by corporate america... that includes hot-rods... hot-rod parts... and on... and on... and on... :(

K13
10-20-2008, 04:52 PM
http://web.mit.edu/ryangray/Public/Gnus/thumbs_up.jpg
"people that aren't working or that are in low paying jobs don't buy shit"... and that lesson seems to have been lost somehow by corporate america... that includes hot-rods... hot-rod parts... and on... and on... and on... :(


You're right but it is a two way street. Workers also have to realize that pension funds and high wages will result in companies making cuts some where. Cutting jobs, tendering to overseas manufacturers etc. Bottom line is companies are, in theory, responsible to their shareholders and that means profit and as much profit as you can get.

Unkl Ian
10-20-2008, 05:17 PM
If those companies were run correctly, they could pay
the pension and health care obligations they agreed to,
and have money left over.

OR they can screw themselves into the ground.

Which one is more likely ?

battersea boys
10-20-2008, 05:29 PM
If those companies were run correctly, they could pay
the pension and health care obligations they agreed to,
and have money left over.

OR they can screw themselves into the ground.

Which one is more likely ?

Explain?..

K13
10-20-2008, 05:36 PM
If those companies were run correctly, they could pay
the pension and health care obligations they agreed to,
and have money left over.

OR they can screw themselves into the ground.

Which one is more likely ?


I would bet they would have a hard time paying industry leading wages, industry leading pensions, industry leading healthcare and buy all of their parts from U.S. manufactures doing the same thing and stay competitive with overseas manufactures who are not.

decker
10-20-2008, 07:09 PM
You're right but it is a two way street. Workers also have to realize that pension funds and high wages will result in companies making cuts some where. Cutting jobs, tendering to overseas manufacturers etc. Bottom line is companies are, in theory, responsible to their shareholders and that means profit and as much profit as you can get.

just for amusement... would you please try to rationalize or justify to me these supposed "high wages" of the laborer that people so much love to flail around in light of the value of todays dollar, overpaid ceo's, greedy shareholders that sell stock like eight year old kids that trade baseball cards and middle management that floats along for the ride the entire time while turning a blind eye and collecting their own phat paychecks, pensions and bene's. Justify to me why someone should be paid $12 an hour or less... are you willing to work for that kind of money... and expect to put food on your families table, pay income, property, and on and on taxes, contribute to your 401K, put money away for college, pay the mortgage, put gas in the car, hit a car show, go to did'sneyland every four years or even buy a HAMB t-shirt???

there's trickle down economics and then there's slowly trickling bleed 'em until we're all dead economics.

i guess you and i have to ask ourselves this question... what's better for a thriving nation... one person making $1M a year or ten people making $50K a year and one person making $500K per year?

:eek: here's a true sign of how bad the econony really is and how hard the times really are... people are stealing cars and dumping them just to get a HAMB t-shirt... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=302600 for chrissakes... has the world gone mad!?!?!?! :)

Conder
10-20-2008, 07:45 PM
MAN, there's been some good stuff on here lately!

fur biscuit
10-20-2008, 08:00 PM
I am going to interject a person opinion in this thread, which I normally try not to.

In my opinion, no business/ country should not send it's base industrial production overseas. The cost to that society is to great. I believe that there is such a thing as acceptable profit and controlled growth/ decline.

That being said, a business/ country must be able to control and regulate thier own work force, the unions have successfully eliminated that ability. They have created thier own dinosaur.

Because of that, Corporations have sought ways to get around the unions, in this case by exporting jobs. In order to gain effeciency, expedience, and streamline thier operations.

decker
10-20-2008, 08:07 PM
I am going to interject a person opinion in this thread, which I normally try not to.

In my opinion, no business/ country should not send it's base industrial production overseas. The cost to that society is to great. I believe that there is such a thing as acceptable profit and controlled growth/ decline.

That being said, a business/ country must be able to control and regulate thier own work force, the unions have successfully eliminated that ability. They have created thier own dinosaur.

Because of that, Corporations have sought ways to get around the unions, in this case by exporting jobs. In order to gain effeciency, expedience, and streamline thier operations.

yes... cutting off your nose to spite your face is just brilliant isn't it?

how many people that used to make $50K a year are now struggling to pay those mortgages? this stuff goes way deeper than we can get into on the HAMB

we need leadership... and a different brand of sheep... i plan on seeing neither in the future. :rolleyes:

49coupe
10-20-2008, 10:18 PM
We could keep this a union and greedy exec. bashing tread. Yes they deserve some of the blame, but not all of it.

The most basic economic principle of sustainable economic advantage dictates where resources (capital and labor) go. In order to earn 8X what another worker makes in another country, you have to be 8X as efficient as they are all things equal. We're not! A big part of the problem is taxes.

Face it, it's tough to compete in manufacturing now in N.Amercia as it is. At least in Canada there is an unstoppable decline in manufacturing jobs. You can't compete with the highest income (60-70%) and business (45%) taxes in the G8, with crumbling 1950's infrastructure, an influx of unskilled immigrants and declining education standards with more efficient countries. Instead of spending the money on world class infrastructure, education, R&D, efficient transportation, and encouraging people to have families, we're taxing the shit out of everthing to piss away on pet projects to generate votes, bloated government adminstration, waste, wars and helping everybody else. We're happy to get a couple of new diesel locomotives to replace our 25 year old commuter trains that go 100 KMPH. The Chinese are putting in high speed electric trains that go 300 KMPH. Who's first world? How many miles of track and trains could we have built with the $30Billion we've pissed away in Afghanistan alone?

I know countless professionals (engineers, doctors, accountants, business owners) who now choose to work part time, or take long vacations because any income over $100K is taxed at almost 50%. If the bills are paid, why kill yourself? How are you going to compete when some of your highest skilled workers chose to fish or garden instead.

Read the world wide competitiveness studies. You know who's on top. Switzerland. Is anything cheap there? No but they have world class infrastructure, R&D, and the lowest business and personal taxes in Europe. It's world headquarter and R&D heaven. For the most part, they have their shit together. Look what Ireland has done in the last 10 years.

I can't change it, so I just focus on my small business, spending time with my family and working on my '49 Ford has time and finances permit. I have not bought a Canadian newspaper in 5 years and haven't had cable in 3. I'm tired of the doom and gloom. The Canada I grew up in is long gone and never coming back. I catch world news on the internet and try to be happy. I think most of us should be pretty happy with what we have. Not too many workers in China and India get to go home to a decent house and work on their toys. If you think we're fucked, talk to business owners and workers in South Africa or other places.

K13
10-21-2008, 12:34 AM
just for amusement... would you please try to rationalize or justify to me these supposed "high wages" of the laborer that people so much love to flail around in light of the value of todays dollar, overpaid ceo's, greedy shareholders that sell stock like eight year old kids that trade baseball cards and middle management that floats along for the ride the entire time while turning a blind eye and collecting their own phat paychecks, pensions and bene's. Justify to me why someone should be paid $12 an hour or less... are you willing to work for that kind of money... and expect to put food on your families table, pay income, property, and on and on taxes, contribute to your 401K, put money away for college, pay the mortgage, put gas in the car, hit a car show, go to did'sneyland every four years or even buy a HAMB t-shirt???

there's trickle down economics and then there's slowly trickling bleed 'em until we're all dead economics.

i guess you and i have to ask ourselves this question... what's better for a thriving nation... one person making $1M a year or ten people making $50K a year and one person making $500K per year?

:eek: here's a true sign of how bad the econony really is and how hard the times really are... people are stealing cars and dumping them just to get a HAMB t-shirt... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=302600 for chrissakes... has the world gone mad!?!?!?! :)

I'm not trying to rationalize or justify anyones wages. I did say workers but I mean all employees of a company. If you want to keep jobs and manufacturing in the U.S. in this day and age you have to realize that you are competing in a global economy. The days of being able to say we need to keep everything in our own country, pay high wages, give great benifits and then we will be fine are over. When companies are owned by people all over the world (stockholders) and they are not all fat cats, the bottom line is profit and stockholders would rather pay one guy 1 million dollars than 10 people $50,000 dollars if that one guy can make them more money. Business is not about whats best for a nation anymore it is about money, and the individuals who want a return on their investments (just like your 401k), and if one nation cannot compete with another they lose out. Not saying it is a good thing but it is todays reality.

North Americans have become used to a lifestyle that the majority of the worlds population does not enjoy. We need to realize that and understand that the give me give me attitude is starting to bite us in the ass. We have wasted and induldged for along time and it was inevitable that something had to change. Our demand for more and cheaper stuff has opened the doors for countries whose workers will work for $12 an hour, and a lot less, to become powerhouses and we financed that. It's pretty hard now, when the U.S. owes countrys like China huge amounts of money to say sorry but we are closing our doors to all of your products so that we can support our workers. I don't think that would go over all that well with China and they would probably want to know where their money was.

Greed is a relative term. You and I thing that CEO's making Millions are greedy but there are plenty of families right here in North America who would probably think that you are greedy wanting to send kids to college and go on trips to Disneyland because they are barely able to scape by. To them what you have probably seems as far out of reach as owning that multimillion dollar house with the fully stock garage is to us. We have it pretty good and sometimes I think we take it for granted.

However, I think we are straying from the topic. Bottom line I think that the American car manufactures did just about everything that they possibly could wrong (quality, development, foresight, wages, pensions, upper managment) and it is going to be a tough hole to crawl out of.

battersea boys
10-21-2008, 01:54 AM
This is going way beyond where I feel I can comment. So from now on I,ll just watch.

decker
10-22-2008, 03:03 PM
this might not be good news for me and a lot of people... http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=74&docid=49679

acdelco parts is a big part of my job and my paycheck... gawd' do I hate "globalization"

Carps
11-16-2008, 07:06 AM
yes I too noticed that bob didn't know what 'european' cars the US companys owned.
And had they not wasted their money buying those ailing European brands maybe they'd have more money to help them out of the situation theyre in now.


maybe you should read a bit more too:D

http://www.toyota.com.au/camry


also sold well in south africa, asia and the middle east.
And all those Camrys are made in Australia, NOT Japan or America. In fact much of the current Camry's styling is from Australia.

if you want to know about toyota stuff and philosophy pm 'carps' he's pretty high up in their world and can give you alot of details on their work ethic across the globe.
The Toyoda family embraced Demming when he was in Japan and based the Toyota Production system on his teaching. The 'Toyota Way' is a combination of Sakichi Toyoda's phylosophy combined with Demming's genius.

I sincerely hope the US industry is not to late and can get itself out of the dire straits it's gotten itself into. Ford should be OK, Chrysler, I dunno, but GM will need some radical and quick action and a serious departure from 'tradition' in the longer term, if it's to survive.

Problem is, the company you all love to hate, needs the US manufactirers to remain in business, for it's own well being.

the SCROUNGER
11-16-2008, 07:12 AM
Demming was a total genius.
Detroit's failure has little to do with government,
everything to do with "Management" ,"Leadership" and "Salesmanship"; or lack there of.



you have been totally brainwashed by the liberal left wing automotive press, into thinking the Big Three USA car makers are doing so bad, and the Japs and Germans are going so good

in reality, they are ALL doing bad- Toyota sales down 24%, Honda sales down 25%, and Lexus sales down 33% just to name a few

GM, Ford, Chrysler have been here before, they lasted through the Great depression 1929-1941. And they will survive this as well. The best thing they could do, is combine all 3 companies into one huge American conglomerate, then they'd really kick ass.

see just how bad the Japs are doing here:

http://www.toyota.com/about/news/corporate/2008/10/01-1-sales.html

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/10/27/financial/f040951D89.DTL&feed=rss.business



Toyota sales went down 29.5 % last month, along with the entire auto
industry, due to the credit crunch

Lexus went down 33%

GM has been there before, during the Great Depression- no biggie.

now we'll separate the men from the boys. It's easy to make hay in
the sunshine, let's see the Jappers make hay in the rain.

Toyota Reports September Sales

October 1, 2008 - Torrance, CA - Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A.,
Inc., today reported September sales of 144,260 vehicles, a decrease
of 29.5 percent from last September, on a daily selling rate basis.
Calendar-year-to-date (CYTD) sales total 1,793,303 units, down 10.4
percent from the same period last year.

The Toyota Division posted September sales of 128,215 units, down 28.9
percent from last September. The Lexus Division reported September
sales of 16,045 units, a decrease of 33.4 percent from the year-ago
month.

Toyota's global sales down in July-September

(10-27) 04:09 PDT TOKYO, Japan (AP) --

Toyota Motor Corp. said Monday its global sales in the July-September
quarter fell for the first time in seven years due to faltering demand
in the U.S.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----
Japan's top automaker sold 2.24 million vehicles worldwide during the
quarter, down 4 percent from the same period last year. It marked the
first year-on-year decline in the July-September period since 2001,
the company said.
Toyota had enjoyed strong U.S. sales earlier this year on robust
demand for fuel-efficient vehicles, but September sales there dropped
32 percent due to sluggish consumer spending

the SCROUNGER
11-16-2008, 07:13 AM
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/honda-sales-down-252/



Honda Sales Down 25.2%
By John Horner
November 4, 2008 - 822 views

Honda’s press release puts the number at 28.4 percent, but that’s
using Daily Selling Rate nonsense. In simple terms, Honda sold 25.2
percent fewer units in calendar October 2008 than in the same period
last year; which puts them in the same boat as Toyota. Only two models
showed sales upsides: the Honda Fit and Acura TL. The Fit has been
capacity constrained forever and is still a relatively modest player
at 6,478 units for the month. The TL is likewise a niche vehicle which
jumped from 3,421 units last year to 4,340 this October thanks to the
all new 2009 TL. But, Acura has two disaster products on it’s hands;
the forever poor-selling RL range topper and the near luxury mini-ute
RDX. RDX sales collapsed from last year’s already low 1,937 to an
abysmal 647 units. Back over at the Honda brand, one surprise in the
numbers is the collapse of Accord sales, down from 30,936 to only
19,783, a 36 percent drop in Honda’s #1 selling product. The Odyssey,
Element and MDX also all posted larger than average declines. However,
for some reason the Ridgeline’s fall was a little less than the
average falloff. Cash on the hood effect? Year to date, Honda is still
up slightly over 2007, but that record seems likely to fall over these
next two months. During the first half of 2008 Honda seemed to be
playing in a different ballpark than the rest of the US auto business.
But from summer on they have regressed to the mean. But hey, there is
one fun-fact buried in the numbers: Honda took sales credit for one
unit of the FCX Clarity hydrogen fuel cell vehicle. I wonder who the
lucky customer is?

http://www.zacks.com/blog/post_detail.html?t=12015

U.S. Keeping Honda Sales Down

Posted Thu Mar 20, 11:12 am ET
Posted By: Paul Raman, CFA

Honda Motor Company (HMC) is expanding its business in Asia, growing
its global network to increase efficiency and introducing new products
to satisfy local markets. Further, capacity expansion plans in Asia, a
new sales strategy in Japan, and the proposed launch of Acura in Japan
inspire optimism about Honda's future prospects. Strong sales in the
emerging markets and cost-cutting also helped lift the car maker's
quarterly profit.

However, unfavorable currency exchange rates, flat-to-lower sales in
its key markets (North America), and increased competition will
threaten HMC's global competitive position. Therefore, we maintain our
Hold rating with a six-month target price of $28.50.
Currently, ADRs of Honda Motor Co. are trading at 7.9x our 2008 EPADR
estimate of $3.46. We believe Honda's stock has a further upside,
given its technological leadership and global production capabilities
that enable it to continually provide its customers with cutting-edge
products designed for their unique local needs. However, volatile
crude prices and intensifying competition are some factors that may
lower volumes.

lolife
11-16-2008, 07:47 AM
Interesting talk about management. I think management and sales are doing a poor job over-all, but worse than that, the product they manufacture is no longer reliable, and is not maintainable by the owner.

It's basically a Rube Goldberg device now.

I don't even know why they open the hood at the sales point.

safari-wagon
11-16-2008, 07:53 AM
You guys are missing an obvious point here. Yes, Demming had a lot of profound ideas & it took a long time for Detroit to embrace them. The US automakers had to learn the hard way, but the ideas did take root.
The focus on quality @ GM & Ford runs deep. At GM, I have to respond to warranty data even when there are as few as 8 cases out of the 120K vehicles sold!

You only have to look at the last few years of the JD Powers results to see that Detroit has been kicking Toyota's, Nissan's, & Honda's ass!!
If the credit crunch & $4 gas didn't happen, GM would be printing money with their line up. The implosion of the banks due to thieves & scoundrels killed their plans.

Some JDP survey results-
http://www.singlefingerspeedshop.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27&sid=3014041ed336937849998756a6aaa9d1


Buying imports kills US jobs, so we should treat it as a form of sedition! Hang the traitors!

lolife
11-16-2008, 07:55 AM
you have been totally brainwashed by the liberal left wing...

Name five people in the wing.

Mikey's Pinstriping
11-16-2008, 08:07 AM
Maybe the Big 3 are going down because everybody wants to drive a Hot Rod. I hope not. The big 3 will want to get in on the act and they'll ruin that as well.

Shifty Shifterton
11-16-2008, 08:15 AM
Scrounger's got an agenda to politicize this thread and get it shut down just like the one he started posting the exact same verbage.

Actually when you look at it, the "facts"he spews aren't really tied directly to manufacturing philosophy (ie the purpose of this thread), they're corporate values involving design, marketing, finance, the whole ball of wax.

Moonglow2
11-16-2008, 08:16 AM
As a retired quality assurance professional I am intimately aquainted with Deming's work, background and statistical tools. The big three realized in the late 70s they had screwed up and have been playing catch-up ever since.

The legacy costs of producing a big three car, in my opinion, will put all three into bankruptcy. I still have brand loyalty to American made iron but there is going to be blood in the streets during the shakeout. The shear number of model offerings is killing them. How many do Toyota and Honda offer?

raceron1120
11-16-2008, 08:18 AM
Methinks it's gettin' a little bit too political here.

For whatever reason and whoever's fault, the domestic North American auto makers are hurting. I think we all try to do our best to support our way of life despite the deals and schmeals the policrats do. There's more than enough blame to go around, both with the govt, the manfacturers and the unions. I'll do what I can while restoring my Ford, and will try putting as much "made in USA" parts into it as possible. I heard there's supposed to be a new round of incentives coming out next week and I'm in the market for a new pickup. Goin' down to the Ford dealer to do some window shopping this afternoon. They ARE still made in North America, right?

BLAKE
11-16-2008, 08:18 AM
Hmmm....

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m441/blakeandjoyce/Scrounger_profile.jpg

lolife
11-16-2008, 08:33 AM
It seems to me, we used to fight the communists with firepower, but today we have found the ultimate weapon. We print dollars, they take it and deliver us manufactured goods.

The money is completely worthless, so why are we complaining about communist product quality?

We even got them tainting their baby milk.

I figure five, ten years we will have produced a perpetual killing machine in China, Vietnam, and Russia.

We can then declare victory, and stop printing worthless dollars :p

Racewriter
11-16-2008, 09:02 AM
A few thoughts here:

The thoughts about Deming, quality improvement, etc. are certainly important and certainly a big part of the problem. The problem has a few other facets, though:

The mainstream (non gearhead) automotive press fell in love with Japanese and German cars decades ago, and are unwilling to view American cars without looking at them through the prism of the '74 Pinto. I still remember when Toyota and Chevrolet joint-ventured the Geo. Consumer Reports gave the Geo a terrible review for build quality and reliability projection, and gave the Toyota Corolla outstanding marks. The punch line? They were built at the same plant, to the same designs, by the same workers, on the same assembly line. I haven't thought of CR as anything but CRap since. Read any review in any mag like Autoweek, Car and Driver, Road and Track, etc. Any flaws in Japanese cars are excused as "likely exceptions," while any flaws in American cars are treated as continuations of a theme. While you can argue that the Big 3 may have earned this reputation, I don't think the magazines do anyone a service by this kind of reportage.

The comments about the American view of the workforce earlier in the thread were under-recognized in my opinion. You can implement process improvement all you want, but when you're constantly training new workers and letting experienced workers go, you're treading water.

The American view of the dealership selling experience is utter crap. This happens to be my field of expertise; nearly every industry that employs professional salespeople to facilitate the final transaction has radically changed and updated their methods over the last 20-25 years. Not the car business - it's the same old manipulative bullshit that they were doing when they were peddling Falcons and Chevelles. This hurts the automakers in two ways - first of all, customer buy cycles are extended, because consumers will put off new car shopping rather than go into the dealership, because the experience sucks. The second way is that the customer relationship is never built, so the customer starts his buying process from scratch, rather than from a pre-existing brand/dealer/salesman loyalty.

I would also argue that one thing that characterized American cars for many years was DESIGN that was unique and exciting. That has been lost, for the most part, as Americans have tried to build cars that look like the same wet bar of soap as their overseas counterparts. Some put down the new Mustang/Challenger/Camaro as retread designs; I like the hell out of them simply because they have lines on them that exist for no other reason than to look good.

Personally, although I've owned a few foreign cars, I prefer American. My daily driver is a '98 Buick Riviera (supercharged V6) that is trouble free and still feels like a bank vault on wheels at 150,000 miles.

sun down
11-16-2008, 09:10 AM
I remember Deming well, I worked for a large corporation that went for the big prize, the Deming award, spent no telling how much money, spent a lot of time with it.................won it............people were laid off, the company was later split off and then sold.............

I was forced out with 27 yrs of service and had turned 55...........but I was lucky.. I still had full retirement,but was not ready to retire......etc..

he had some good ideas though,
now back to my hot rod.................

recardo
11-16-2008, 09:32 AM
The American view of the dealership selling experience is utter crap.

...it's the same old manipulative bullshit that they were doing when they were peddling Falcons and Chevelles...

I agree.

Q: How Much?
A: I can put you in this car today for $239 a month.

Q: What's the loan pay-off?
A: I'll have to do a credit check.

Q: I'll pay cash.
A: We're not equipped to handle cash.

Mazooma1
11-16-2008, 09:52 AM
"...you have been totally brainwashed by the liberal left wing automotive press...."


Holy shit, thats the funniest thing I've heard in quite some time!
Thats an example of having nothing else to blame...

29nash
11-16-2008, 10:19 AM
Over-production. Their folly. They have ignored one factor, the law of supply and demand.

I look at the bright side. I thank the Automobile Industry for the extra cash I (don't) spend on a new car.

Their inept-ness has made it possible for me to buy a 5 year old car with less than 120k miles on it that cost 20,000 new for around 5grand. I havea been doing that ever since the 1980s.

Being of modest means, I resist buying anything that I have to make paymnents on because with that comes additional costs, interest, the requirement by the lender for me to have full coverage insurance, etc. The only insurance I ever carry is the liability mandated by the state of Colorado.

Without a car payment and the additional cost of full coverage insurance I have an estimated $$500 a month to play with, spend on my old car hobby!

Thank you, again, Automobile Industry. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

TimDavis
11-16-2008, 10:41 AM
Definition of hypocrisy: Thoroughly enjoying driving and building your American hot rod while a foreign car sits in your driveway.


Every brand of car discussed in this thread, be it foreign or domestic, is manufactured by a publicly traded corporation. The profits and proceeds go to the shareholders.

If I own Toyota shares, why would I buy a Ford? Toyota is partially owned by me, I should buy from my competitors? The cars are made all over the world - engines in Korea, tires in China, electronics in Japan, assembled in Maryland....workers everywhere, consumers everywhere.

From here forward, its just branding.

Von Rigg Fink
11-16-2008, 10:48 AM
yawn:confused:

kinda against what this forum is about ..aint it?

what so "traditional hot rodding" about this?

we all have our views as to why this crap is going on..and it all becomes intensly political..again, against what this place is about..

Big Pete
11-16-2008, 11:01 AM
Keep in mind the US auto industry went from many many manufacturers of cars to the big three. They've had their bad days, but if they fail we could go back to small manufacturering as a way to get American cars. Good for innovation, but you'll either make your own car or order one two years in advance. Keep in mind the US is really the only country with an interstate highway system ie no hopes pinned on mass transit except avaition and the funny goverment boondoggle of the passenger rail system.