Ford engines...I still think they are stupid!

[roadstar]

It seems the Small block Ford(302) uses a small oil pump drive rod. But that pump will fit a 351 windsor engine.
And the Engine in the customers car I have in the shop is a 351 Windsor but It has a 302 oil pump with the small drive rod.

Well what drives this rod is the distributer, and the MSD Reaady to Run Dist. I bought for the 351 engine has a larger diamater hole for the larger drive Rod that should be in the 351 engine.

Well needless to say the small oil pump drive rod would not ingage in the larger dist. and the result is NO OIL PRESSURE!!!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

THe bottom line is Ford engines do this kind of thing all the time. I'm a small block chevy guy and almost EVERYTHING is interchangeable.

I'm jsut glad it was something that simple. You just don't know the feeling of build a car for someone and when you go to fire what is supposed to be a brand new engine and end up with less than 10 pounds of oil pressure. My heart was in my throat. The thought of pulling the engine back out and going through the hassel of getting it fixed and or replaced made me ill.

So luckily it was a simple fix. The People at MSD said the 302 dist. Is the same with the exception of it having the small hole for the oil pump drive. so it's just a matter of swaping out the dist. for a 302 untit and everything will work fine.

So I plan on staying with SBC's for the time being, but I do have a flathead project going to geather and can't wait to see what kind of obsticals I run into with an ancient Ford Engine http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[kustomkoupe]

flathead is the "real" ford...good luck with that one when you get to it ...glad you got it figured out though

zach

[hotrodladycrusr]

Well hopefully by posting your "issues" this week, another HAMBer might be spared the flustration that you went thru. Thanks for sharing.

[Henry Floored]

No offense roadstar but the Chevys have not held to their reputation of interchangeability for a long time. Way back you had large and small journal 327 cranks, externally balanced 400's and it really gets confusing to this Ford guy when you start talking about what year crank will fit in what year block and accomodate the correct rear main seal, and I don't even know where to begin with vortec, LT1 and LS1.

The Ford oil pump drive rod is but one of many components Ford engineers beefed up for the 351W and it's intended higher power and more severe applications. They will hold a lot of power. Fords are easy once you get used to them.

[Jason455]

Honestly I have always been a GM guy. But when you cross over thats when the problems start. If you grew up around Fords you think GM is screwy. If you grew up around GM you think Ford is retarded. I dont think either is bad, It is just what your used to. If you were a ford guy you would have known there was a difference. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Ayers Garage]

GM used the same bellhousing pattern for modern inline sixes, small blocks, big blocks, and even 90 degree V6 engines.

Engine swaps are cake. Makes it easy for us simpler minded fellows to enjoy building cars without straining our feeble minds remembering little details like the Ford guys have to.

To me, I need to have fun to enjoy stress free building. Super simple does it for me.

I saw my father in law struggle with swapping a late model roller cam Mustang 5.0 into his original 289 Mustang. He hassled for weeks figuring out brackets and pulleys on that thing. Seemed like a lot of heartache to me.

[Fat Hack]

Well, the 351-W has a taller deck height than the 302...so either a longer drive rod, or a longer distributor is needed, naturally! Ford opted for making a 351-W specific drive rod.

Alot of things can interchange between your "standard" small block Fords and the 351-W, but the taller deck height on the 351 means it requires a unique (wider) intake manifold and a different oil pump drive rod.

It ain't no different with them small block Chevys...Vortec heads, vertical center bolt intakes, center bolt valve cover, staggered bolt (early) valve covers, one piece rear seal, two piece seal, large journal, small journal, etc...

Now...don't forget your 351-C and 351-M motors... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Henry Floored]

I'm sure your dad discovered that the easiest route was to go with all 289 components or change over to the 5.0 stuff. The bolt patterns on the heads and front cover are identical thus the component swapping should have been fairly straightforward. Maybe the snag was in the 3- bolt versus 4- bolt balancer difference. I used to help guys with stuff like that all the time while I was a Ford parts guy.

Remember that 5.0 packs all of the refinements that were utilized over the course of 40 years of small block Fords into a package that is virtually identical from the outside except for the differences in the flywheel and balancer and dipstick location. Everything else will bolt on from one to the other.

[Ayers Garage]

The deal was, the 289 front cover used a mechnical fuel pump and a dipstick that he wanted to retain. The 5.0 used a different dipstick in the oil pan, and no fuel pump.

The harmonic balancer on the 289 was 3 bolt and the 302 was 4 bolt.

He couldn't find the right lower pulley to use the original v-belts off of the 289 on the 5.0. And the dipstick was right in the wrong place. Seemed like it hit a bracket or something.

As far as the SBC thing. I know the delicacies of center bolt heads ,and small journals, and 1 piece rear main seals. But, swapping Chevy engines is dead simple till you get up to the late 80s types. 283 to 327 or 305 to 350. It's easy, whatever your tastes.

[Paul]

thanks roadstar,

I feel better now that I have a reason for hating them http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Paul

[roadstar]

Another time I had a wrecked 64 1/2 Mustang ragtop I bought to fix and resell. It was hit real hard it the front so I had to pull the engine and replace the frame rail bla bla bla...

Well when I went to put it all back togeather I figured I would put the major tune up on it, so I replaced all the plugs,wires,belts,hoses,ect.

I looked up the fireing order and proceded to route the plugwires.

Well....The damn dist. spins the WRONG WAY http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I messed with that car trying to get it started for a whole day, Untill I figured I had the firing order backwards and every way but right.

Well I learned something that day too. It seems every time I work on a ford engine thinking I'm fairly bright when it comes to mechanicals I find a new "Unique" ford situation.

Well thats the fun part right.

And don't get me going about HEMIS http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[choprods]

Its really whatever you are accustomed to being around and working on I suppose....-I prefer chevys.
I did however start one like you said and NO oil pressure[5lbs].
It turned out that he engine builder forgot to install the plugs around the cam oil journals and it was just lubing the crank and no oil to top end at all......scary situation.
I think if I had to fault Ford motors for anything it would be that the expense of building them is rediculous when compared to their perfomance capabilities.
THEY ARE HOWEVR a very tough motor usually -Ive seen may 352 390 429 460's in trucks that will defy all beliefs as to durability.....also I could never figure how a Ford would run on 10 LBS oil pressure for 5 years while using a quart of oil in 100 miles and a chevy will foul a plug instantly and grenade at that oil pressure reading! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[tomslik]

and don't forget the 5 and 6 bolt bellhousing bullshit.
and different manual trans bolt patterns and the fact you need to know what color the fucker was before you can order parts,and.....

[Flat Ernie]

[ QUOTE ]
The deal was, the 289 front cover used a mechnical fuel pump and a dipstick that he wanted to retain. The 5.0 used a different dipstick in the oil pan, and no fuel pump.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well you'd need to dress the 5.0 out with the 289 stuff anyway - if it's going in an early Mustang, you'll need the front sump pan, & likely want the timing cover dipstick - which will buy you a mechanical pump if you want it.

You can redrill the 3-bolt crank pulley for the 4-bolt balancer easily - it doesn't have to be perfect as it registers on the balancer lip. I've done several this way (usually going the other way though - 3-bolt 351W balancer to the 5.0 pulley for a 351W swap into Fox body).

This really is as simple as taking a long block & dressing it with the tins & accessories from the earlier engine - which you would probably want to do anyway in a restomod 'Stang...

For all their fabled interchangeability, Chevy's ain't perfect either as has been pointed out here already. There's plenty of little gotchas.

I view the Ford bellhousings, for example, as an effort to keep you from screwing up & putting a puny 6-cyl tranny behind a big block! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Fat Hack]

Ha Ha Ha...I always think that dealing with Fords is childs play...but living in Dearborn (Ford Country!), maybe one can take these things for granted! I mean...my nine year old neice says they teach you how to identify Ford V8s in like second grade at our public schools!!!

Yeah, there's a few little "oddities" to learn and work around...but they're just so much COOLER than a moth-eaten old small block Chevy that it's worth the extra effort and fuss!

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

(Or maybe...Ford made them "complicated" on PURPOSE...so only the COOL people would build Fords! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif)

Ha Ha Ha...right about now the AMC guys are glad they ain't in the crosshairs! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Ayers Garage]

[ QUOTE ]
but they're just so much COOLER than a moth-eaten old small block Chevy




[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus, Hack, you mean yankee moths can actually eat an engine? I'm astonished. I thought our Texas rattle snakes were tough.

[GomezGarage]

Ha Ha Ha...right about now the AMC guys are glad they ain't in the crosshairs


Im building an AMC right now... Im in hell

[beatnik]

[ QUOTE ]
You just don't know the feeling of build a car for someone and when you go to fire what is supposed to be a brand new engine and end up with less than 10 pounds of oil pressure. My heart was in my throat. The thought of pulling the engine back out and going through the hassel of getting it fixed and or replaced made me ill.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try it when you're 17 and you just rebuilt a customers Buick 350 and an old joker mechanic buddy tells you to pull off the oil pump and fill it full of vasoline to prime the engine. It worked but we horsed around so much I didn't wana believe him.

I was lucky started with mopar, then olds, then buick, then pontiac then chevy and know Ford, there all fucked up in some way.

Know for the important stuff

302 and 351 distibutors are the same except for the drive size.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/beatnik/Dscf0009.jpg

The bad news is a 351W has a 1" taller deck height and the 302 oil pump drive rod is to short to work, see pic. I dont have oil pumps to compare but I'm pretty sure there the same as the distributors, same except for drive size. I'm pretty sure the 302 distributor isn't going to engage to the oil pump drive rod. or very little if at all. Also they put the bigger drive rod in the 351W cause the smaller ones twist up like pretzels and break. Call me if you need more explanation. Sorry

[Fat Hack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but they're just so much COOLER than a moth-eaten old small block Chevy




[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus, Hack, you mean yankee moths can actually eat an engine? I'm astonished. I thought our Texas rattle snakes were tough.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's nothing...you oughtta see our MOSQUITTOS!!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Pigiron]

You can not install a 351 distributor in a 302 block. The 351 uses a larger diameter housing.

[Flat Ernie]

[ QUOTE ]
You can not install a 351 distributor in a 302 block. The 351 uses a larger diameter housing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I must admit to not having any in front of me right now, but I'm 99% sure there is no difference in the outside of the distributor body. The internal shaft is larger diameter & as has been pointed out, the hex is larger.

It just amazes me that someone used a 302 pump & drive shaft in a 351W - the shaft must have barely been engaged at either end...

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[OutLaw]

I feel your pain http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif I'm a GM man for life. I've gone round and round with ford products also, What do you mean its a 64 1/2 ????

[porknbeaner]

Actually the Ford mill is just as smart as any other mill. Its the engineer that dropped the ball.
And he really didn't drop the ball from what I understand it is done that way so you can't swap parts back and forth.I personaly don't care for the concept, but I'm a hot rodder and like swapping things back and forth. But that's because I'm buying parts and not selling parts. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Oh and BTW I'm not a Ford man, its just an observation.

[Pigiron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You can not install a 351 distributor in a 302 block. The 351 uses a larger diameter housing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I must admit to not having any in front of me right now, but I'm 99% sure there is no difference in the outside of the distributor body. The internal shaft is larger diameter & as has been pointed out, the hex is larger.



http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ] Well here is your 1%. 302 distributors measure 1.500" in diameter to fit the block. 351s measure 1.550" dia. The blocks differ too. 302-1.505". 351 blocks 1.555". No disrespect but you need to know a little bit more about Ford small blocks.

[Henry Floored]

You just made me go down to my shop to check. Right now I have a 351W and a 460 and both distributer bores measure 1.555 dia. I don't have a 302 at the moment, but I got to thinking that 302's, 351's and 460's all take the same distributer o-ring (COAF-12143-A). This would not be possible I don't think if the 302's had .055 smaller dist bore.

Further Ford's decisions to enhance deck heights bellhousing flanges and crankshaft journal sizes is clear evidence that their desire was to provide a premium engine for a given displacement range. No generic deck heights for example with ever increasing rod angularity as displacement grew via longer stroke. Also Ford was paranoid I'm sure when they designed a nice wide big block sized transmission flange to eliminate "driveline sag" in the big engine categories. Ford has also historically used premium iron alloys for their castings, just ask any machinist that has bored one or two.

One must ask oneself, do I demand interchangeability above all other considerations? I think not and therefore I am a Ford man. Sure they are not perfect, and I'd change some things if I could, but overall they pack plenty of punch and presence for my use! Have you driven a 460 lately?

[hell_fish_65]

For the love of god, if you swap out the oil pump, put the retainer on the pump shaft. It a over looked piece by a lot of Chevy guys replacing parts on Ford SB's.
As for Ford mills vs. Chevy? Each step of the way Ford improved its product. I don't have to worry about buying a 4 bolt main Ford block to handle some power. I don't have to worry about a small cheap balancer bolt breaking on me. At least the Chevy parts are cheap. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Pigiron]

[ QUOTE ]
You just made me go down to my shop to check. Right now I have a 351W and a 460 and both distributer bores measure 1.555 dia. I don't have a 302 at the moment, but I got to thinking that 302's, 351's and 460's all take the same distributer o-ring (COAF-12143-A). This would not be possible I don't think if the 302's had .055 smaller dist bore.

[/ QUOTE ] O-rings are made from rubber so the will fit the difference between the two!

[Rocky]

It's been awhile since we had the ford vs chevy debate here on the HAMB. I just love to sit and read the good points and bad points of each one. On a personal level I prefer the General's engines over Henry's stuff because I've never had a ford SLAM me back against the seat back so violently as a well built chevy does.
Conversly, it gladdens my heart that the ford 302 has a 4" bore and a 3" stroke just like a 302 Chevy. The 302 chevy's are hard to find but the fords are a dime-a-dozen. Now, if we could just build an inexpensive 302 ford that would perform like a 302 chevy, I'd be standing in line to buy one!
The sound of a SBC winding through the gears of a close ratio 4 speed in a light car is positively music to my ears. The same size ford engine winding through the gears sound good but ...........I dunno, it doesn't have that pissed-off screaming noise the sbc has.
Now, I had a buddy who worked for a guy locally that spent a few years refining his yellow 71 Mach one. It had a breathed-on 351 Cleveland that was VERY impressive! The mustang blew the doors off my buddy's 350 SBC 55 chevy 2 door and it made a sound not unlike a hot sbc.
Maybe I'll start looking for a sbf engine to plop in my 52 Willys pickup. It's about time I tried something a little different just for kicks. I'd like to try tweeking a sbf to see if I could get it to run as hard as the last 3 chevy's I built.

[Crosley]

Bummer

[BELLM]

Ok, I'm a Chevy guy, but this 302 Ford engine followed me back from the HAMB Drags in August. Racefab told me he didn't like the rockers in he engine but couldn't find what he wanted in time to deliver the raffle engine, gave me a box of Crower pushrods, told me he would mail me the rockers. Got a pkg yesterday, box of new Comp Cams roller tip rockers! He also sent the build sheet & a copy of the virtual dyno program he ran on the engine. 344HP @ 5250RPM. Must be the Chevy intake valves he used!! Being the open-minded individual that I am I can't wait to try this engine out in something!! Last Ford engine I built was around '80, 271 HP 289 hi-po in a 66 Mustang Fastback and I thought it was quick!!

[roadstar]

Gus we need to talk http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif. I actually forgot all about yu being the Ford guy around here.

The tech guy at MSD said the ONLY difference between the two dist. was the broaching for the oil pump drive rod. I also learned that the 351winsor drive rod goes into the shaft further than the 302 one, So I'm praying that the 302 dist. will make everything work here. It should engage as much is it would in the 302 block.

The though of pulling the engine and changing the oil pump doesn't appeal to anyone right now.

Did I mention I hate cars http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Henry Floored]

I dunno I/ve seen SBF's run 6 secs in the 1/4 mile. They give bbc's a run for their money. 2300 hp is hard to argue with.

[Flat Ernie]

[ QUOTE ]
No disrespect but you need to know a little bit more about Ford small blocks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds to me like someone didn't know about it either, tried for himself, & ended up measuring to find out why it didn't fit! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I, however, never claimed to know everything about Fords - on the other hand, I have been wrenching & building them for over 20 years. Perhaps my naked eye never noticed 0.050" because I wasn't dumb enough to actually try to put a 351 distributor into a 302 or vice verse.

Roadstar's customer evidently put a 302 (or someone did it for him) distributor into a 351W - seems like a 0.050" slop probably wouldn't be noticed because of the O-ring. But it was still a conscious mistake becuase it required the hex & oil pump to be changed.

Lastly, I have no problem being corrected when wrong - happens a lot. There is, however, no need for being snippy.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Swedester]

well,I´m in to mopar engines,nough said,anyway, here´s a nice 289engine powering the mustang it was delivered in,most is in swedish, but just clicking around and checking out the pic´s is very interesting
http://home8.swipnet.se/~w-86996/webbsida/index.html

[willowbilly3]

I have worked on them all and owned then all. I prefer Fords but they will drive you nuts when you start trying to swap parts. I switched from Chevys to Fords back in the 70s when I started driving pickups. I figured it was worth the annoyances to have a decent cab and a front suspension that I could keep together. Then later on I found that clean older Ford pickups were much easier to come by that older Chevys. By the time a Chevy pickup is 15 or 20 years old at leat on gomer has owned it and put in a stereo with a fire ax and 10 miles of red wire and duct tape. And they always came into the shop with no fanshroud and half the bolts missing.
Well that's my rant, there are plenty of books on what fits what so do your home work before tackling a Ford.
I always say anyone can work on a Chevy but it takes a real mechanic to work on a Ford. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[mybeatupford]

ahhh more bitching about ford motors n chevy motors. from my experience building ford motors i never swap parts off smaller blocks the way i was taught was to buy the part for you size block and that's it, why screw around trying to figure out and cop out because ohh i have a 302 water pump maybe this shit will work, Jesus man and all this bitchin about ohhhh there so much money to build one, ohhh they don't have as much horse power as a sbc, ohhh they don't last as long as a chevy motor. i grew up workin on fords but i have turned wrenches on friends chevys. and all the ford engines me and my father have build we have never ran into as many problems with our engines as our friends with sbc, harmonic balancer falling off shit it's because u used another part u have out back off another sbc chevy because it will fit, I'm no where rich but shit go buy a new damn part. i had an engine in my old bronco last way over 200,500 miles so don't tell me shit that fords don't last and we never tore that engine apart just rebuilt the carb n followed everything with a tune up as our oil changes. i don't give a hoot if u love ford or chevy motors or mopars or what ever just don't say something's stupid because of someone else's stupidity by changing the water pump to a different size motor there that's enough of my bitching

[side_valve]

Hmmmm – interesting. Each make has its strange quirks; I grew up as a Ford guy and currently run a healthy flathead. But I enjoy all interesting and challenging engines: 409, hemi, Rocket 88, nailhead and flathead. (Even had a 400 sbc once).

But I could NEVER understand the sense of having a starter solenoid next to an exhaust header on sbc – that’s just not right. I guess it keeps the “thermal starter blanket” and “sbc solenoid kit relocate” companies in business.

[296 V8]

I can relate. I feel the same way when I have to deal with that stupid fuel pump push rod in a Chevy. All motors have something weird.