Hilborn FI question?

[Bugman]

With the accessory drives on my Hemi, the cam driven Hilborn fuel pump isn't an option. I don't really want touse the gilmer belt method either. Could I mount the fuel pump on a bracket on the fender well and turn it with an electric motor? If it was electrically operated, would it prime the system prior to startup so I wouldn't need to squirt gas in the throttle body first? Thanks.

-Jeff

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I've been running Hilborns for over 40 years and I've never heard of an idea like that one. I'll be following this one closely..... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[oldchevyseller]

why not just use a weldon or other fuel pump? the are rated at the same flow and pressure as the mechanical,

[SamIyam]

They call those electric pumps. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I would mount if it off to the side... or off the cam and run a remote water pump... I've never seen an electric pump used... I think it has to do with the fact that the pump needs to put out one amount of fuel at idle... and then another amount of fuel throughout the RPM range up to max rpm/ pump volume.

I'm thinking that you'd have to have one hell of an electric motor to run a Hilborn pump.

It would be interesting to mess with an electric pump on a mechanical injection unit... normally operated by pressure... but run a reostat for the pump and a variable pressure guage for the pressure also... bet you could dedicate your life to it and make it work.
Sam.

[oldchevyseller]

well interesting thoughts,as far as monitering the fuel needed , number of ways to get that info to the pump i would look at a veriable diverter valve like in hydraulics that bleed off fuel not need through a pressure regulator,as far as fuel flow amount that could be configured with a full throttle switch .or a simple throttle position switch, i should have started sooner in life ,i wont get it done before i die http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Blownolds]

The Hilborn/Crower/Enderle/etc. types of racing fuel injection units are constant flow. There is no metering of the fuel at the injectors (no on-off-on action like with electonic injectors for timing). I don't know if this will have anything to do with why an electric pump couldn't be used, but none of the racers seem to.

Or, maybe it has to do with volume of flow, in gallons per minute.

Or maybe it has to do with the output of an electic pump being constant, where as a mechanical pump varies the flow with RPM.

Just grasping for answers, I really don't know why racers do not use electic pumps with these setups, but there will be a reason. Ask around on drag race forums to find out.

BTW, are you planning on running it on the track, or the street? Don't let anyone tell you that you can't run constant-flow mechanical injection on the street-- I know of some setups doing just that. But there is a lot of preparation done to the setups so that they can do that. I will be using 4-port injection on my blown 394 on the street, but I do not plan on doing the setup myself--- I will go to the two guys I know that have done these for the street.

[Special Ed GT]

I think you guys have an idea here!

Electric pumps such as those used on some newer FI cars (like a '00 Mustang, for instance) are variable - the more current applied to them, the more they flow. The new Mustangs use a returnless fuel system instead of a fuel regulator, where the current increases or decreases, increasing or decreasing fuel flow, as engine loads dictate. Of course, this is all computer-controlled. But, you could probably trick the pump into doing the same thing w/o a computer.

So, connecting a TPS to a rheostat could vary the signal to a pump such as this. I can get the current/flow relationship of a Mustang pump if it'll help.

[four-thirteen]

absolutely not.

like all things, there is a but. if you wanted to creat some complex circuitry to drive an electric pump at certain speeds to maintain certain flow rates, yes you could. if you did a really good job of this, you might come somewhere close to the performance of a poorly tuned EFI setup. not worth it at all.

constant flow injectors like the hilborn unit use the fuel pump as part of the metering system. the pump is spun at half crankshaft speed, in order to meter the flow rate.

A fuel system's job is to put fuel into the motor at the stoichiometricly proper amount. if you don't know what that means, go here: http://www.shodor.org/unchem/basic/stoic/ the theory behind the hilborn unit is that the proper amount of fuel an engine needs can be expressed as a function of the following things: crankshaft RPM and throttle blade position. these are the two monitored inputs on a hilborn injector. you take one of those away, and fuel no longer is injected at the stoiciometricly proper ratio.

David

[Bugman]

Thanks for the input guys. It is for a street car using a 4 port injector on a blower. I would be using my Hilborn pump with a reostat connected to the throttle to regulate the electric motor speed, thus controlling the fuel volume and pressure. Other MFI systems, such as the Bosch system use a variable fuel pressure regulator to adjust the fuel pressure for changing RPM. These are both things I'm already looking into. I may use the complete Bosch system with the Hilborn throttle body if I can get it to flow enough. I might exparament with an electric pump, and eliminate my mechanical pump all together. I'm also looking into the remote water pump option, but I'll still need a way to drive the alternator, and prime the fuel system. I can't find anyone who can say for certain that it won't work, only why it might not work. Don't tell me it won't work until you've tried it http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

-Jeff

[alteredpilot]

i didnt catch as to WHY a cam drive pump is no option. space? that can be solved (remote water pump). but heres the rub, you can plumb in an auxilliary electric priming pump on a toggle switch to solve your starting issues. but please tell us why the front drive pump is not an option so we can get creative. did you say you didnt want to use a hilborn type belt drive? if so why not?

[3blapcam]

[ QUOTE ]
absolutely not.

like all things, there is a but. if you wanted to creat some complex circuitry to drive an electric pump at certain speeds to maintain certain flow rates, yes you could. if you did a really good job of this, you might come somewhere close to the performance of a poorly tuned EFI setup. not worth it at all.

constant flow injectors like the hilborn unit use the fuel pump as part of the metering system. the pump is spun at half crankshaft speed, in order to meter the flow rate.

A fuel system's job is to put fuel into the motor at the stoichiometricly proper amount. if you don't know what that means, go here: http://www.shodor.org/unchem/basic/stoic/ the theory behind the hilborn unit is that the proper amount of fuel an engine needs can be expressed as a function of the following things: crankshaft RPM and throttle blade position. these are the two monitored inputs on a hilborn injector. you take one of those away, and fuel no longer is injected at the stoiciometricly proper ratio.

David

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I would listen to David on this one... and not use an electric pump, I don't think it'd be worth messing with it. There's probably a good reason why no one uses electric pumps w/ these setups. Relocating the water pump and altenator is a lot easier than rebuilding a shortblock because it went lean. Of course, this just my opinion. Good luck. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Alec.

[Blownolds]

PART of the setup to running these one the street (there is more stuff you need to do, like mods to the barrel valve), is to feed the mechanical pump from a reservoir tank. Then an electric pump takes fuel from the main tank and fills the reservoir tank. A smaller return line goes back to the main tank. Then the electric pump constantly keeps the reservoir tank filled. You are good for a pass, but wait for the reservoir tank to fill again before making another pass, you don't want to run it dry. As for priming the mechanical pump, the electric pump will push fuel up to the mechanical one. Just wait for it to do that before trying to fire the engine. It'll sputter a little until the air bubbles pass through, but it does OK.

I think these setups might be a little easier to use on the street with a blown motor than a naturally aspirated one. But I do know of a guy that has a natural aspirated injected hemi he put together for the street.

Again, there are a couple more things that should be done in setting these things up.

[FEDER]

413 got the first two right but the third is the barrel valve. I run My pump off the cam. The pump is rpm rated and flowed to match first the barrel valve and nozzles in relation to the throttle blades.The entire system is baselined by cu in - RPM - cam lift and headflow.
Constant flow fuel injectors if set up properly start with ease (mine does) and require less maintenence than EFI or bosch units.They are not a good choice for the street.
I have 2 fuel pumps set and ready to go at the begining of the race season.Mid season I change them out and send the used one in for a tune up.The phenolic blades wear and getting pump pressure on the starter gets hard. Thus the car gets harder to start and if you let it go, the pressure throughout the RPM range drops. When this happens it leans the system and you burn a piston. So running it on the street you better have alot of pumps.
Kinsler just went completly through My system and I gotta say they did a way better job than Hilborn.But they were 4x the cost. I suggest you call kinsler and get the catalogs they have. They are a wealth of info for all injectors.
FEDER

[Scotch]

We like Hemis, so we don't want to see you destroy one.

Don't McGyver up a half-assed electric-pump fed mechanical FI unit for a street car. At the very least, you'll ruin the Hemi. At the very worst, you'll perish in a hellish blaze of glory and make the national news.

Let's avoid both, shall we?

As was mentioned, mechanical injection systems rely on the pressure of the driven mechanical pump, the position of the barrel valve, the size of the injector orifice, and the position of the throttle blades to hopefully get the air/fuel ratio somewhere close to stochiometric so the engine will run. The "tuning" is normally set for wide-open throttle, since that's where race engines with stack injectors ran back in the day.

You said this was a "street" deal.

Please, disguise an EFI system inside those stacks so you can actually enjoy driving the car in this lifetime. If you go messing with rheostats and vacuum-referenced pressure regulators in a bizarre attempt to find some kind of streetability, you will inevitably fail at some point, and whether that's lean or fat, you will damage stuff and cost yourself money, time, and maybe more.

You said that "no one said you couldn't do it"....

...well...I think I'm the third in this thread to say so. You can't do this.

If it were possible to salvage any portion of the great-looking mechanical injector systems we all love by using some combination of modern electronic components, you'd have seen it by now and it would have been Hilborn, Kinsler, or Crower that would have figured it out and marketed it already.

The fact that they all offer conversions of their classic mechanical setups to EFI should be a clue. It's the only way to acheive what you're after.

Don't worry...it's still a trick to get perfect, so you'll have plenty of opportunity to tinker and fine-tune this setup.

Since it's a 4-holer on top of a blower, it should actually be easier. Easier to tune, and easier to hide.

Please..Go EFI, or go mechanical, but don't mix and match. They both work for different reasons, and I don't want you to ruin your stuff.

Scotch!~

[Bass]

Well, I'm not sure if this would apply to a 2 port or 4 port on top of a blower....but I met a guy when I was out in California this summer that is working out a way to use Hilborn mechanical fuel injection with an electric pump.

This is not EFI, but mechanical injection that will be more than just idle and WOT...there will actually be a usable span of part-throttle operation

This guy is something of a mechanical genius that has working closely with a guy that does a lot of work on Top Fuel car fuel metering systems. They've made all their own barrel valves, injectors, etc. to work with the electric pump. I don't know specifics or anything, and to tell the truth most of the engineering is over my head, but it definitely looks cool....and from what I understand, they've got the injection on the test mule 392 just about worked out.

I'm not going to name any names, and I probably shouldn't even be telling anyone about this because I think it's still pretty top secret http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif , but I had to let you know that there is someone out there who is working all this stuff out that's not affiliated with Hilborn, Kinsler, etc. Hopefully when they get to the point where they've got everything dialed in, they'll make their conversions available to the public.

Here's a spy photo I took of their test mule:

[Scotch]

Dammit Bass..you're just gonna encourage him...and make us look bad...!!!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

That is really cool, though.

I just wonder if it'll be more expensive than true EFI, or if it'll work as well. Sure seems to have less wires...

Scotch!~

[Blownolds]

I know whose 392 that is... and I also am bound to keep a secret. Yes, he is one of the two guys I know that knows how to set these up for street use.

But THANK YOU for the info on the pumps, FEDER, I will have to keep several on hand. I am bound and determined to go ahead and run the constant flow on my blown 394, but again, I am simply copying the guys I know personally who do it themselves after playing with this stuff for a while.

CAUTION: DO NOT ATTEMPT to run constant flow injection if you care about your mileage or whether or not your vehicle becomes a gross polluter.

[four-thirteen]

[ QUOTE ]
413 got the first two right but the third is the barrel valve.

[/ QUOTE ]

The barrel valve is not an input. The barrel valve, along with the nozzles, the pump flow rate, bypass jets and everything else are constants in the equation. the only two things that are monitored by the system are engine RPM, and the thottle blade position. this may or may not be the best inputs to base fuel consumption on, but good or bad, this is how hilborn injectors do it.

No matter how you do it, if you can build a fuel system to put the mixture of hydrocarbons and oxygen into a combustion chamber, in the stoiciometricly proper ratio, your motor will be properly tuned, and run good and strong.

Some very smart guy figured out he could do it with a throttle blade, a tube with a venturi in it, and a float bowl. it worked so well that it caught on and was the standard for quite a few years. we call it a carb. it was simple. and it works. and it works well.

there is a point i'm getting at here. SIMPLICITY. hilborn injection works because it's simple. carbs work because they are simple. i think the complication will lead to failure on this project. David

[Blownolds]

As it has been explained to me, YES the barrel valve is an input. It regulates how quickly the fuel begines to flow through the system, from idle to full throttle. It has a cam with a ramp. The Enderle is supposed to have a much quicker ramp (thus either idle or full throttle, in essence), while the Hilborn barrel valve has a slightly gentler ramp. This is one reason these guys have chosen to use the Hilborn barrel valve for their street stuff. Well, one of the guys. I have a feeling the second guy might be making his own from scratch. But the first guy does internal modifications to the barrel valve. I haven't had him show me in person yet though.

[Bugman]

Ok, this is probably a dumb question, but there are supposed to be phenolic blades in the fuel pump? I took mine apart, it's a 150 #0, and it looked something like a gearotor style oil pump, only with more lobes on the inner and outer rotors. No room for any type of phenolic anything. all metal parts with metal to metal contact on everythinmg except the bushing the shaft rides in. What's up with that?

-Jeff

[Yo Baby]

The 150 pump is a gear rotor style pump called a positive displacement pump Ie:the tighter you wind it the more volume it delivers.

Hilborn ,Enderle and Kinsler all make several different spools.The spool can be identified by the little numbers stamped on the linkage end of spool,25-28 30 etc.Some are for gas some for methanol and some for Fuel.

The mixture is controlled by the spool ,engine rpm's and poppet pressures and pills.The part throttle mixture can be tailored some what by the spool,but,the more poppets you have the more control you have over the fuel curve.

Early Volvo and Audi fuel injection was a mixture of electric and mechanical and vaccum metered stuff.I believe the called it L or K-jetronic.I've often thought a vaccum metered return with a custom ground spool could be made to work together to control mixture well enough to drive on the street,although when spoken out loud that is a thought that meets a bit of ridicule from the mouths of narrow minded beholders.

I personally believe you could make it work,but somtimes the journey from here to there can drive a guy nuts.

Gun it man and give it a whirl,if you mind your p's&q's the worst that should happen is wrecking some plugs and oil,but I would definitely consider mounting the water pump remotely and running the fuel pump off the cam.Mounting the water pump in a remote location would be a lot easier than manufacturing a constant duty variable speed pump drive.

The primer system is a must have unless the fuel tank is higher than the pump.When using a primer pump anything will do cause you only need about 2.5 PSI.to prime with but you have to have some type of check valve to keep mechanical pump pressure from backing up to the tank through the primer.I just use a standard mechanical injection Idle by-pass poppet on my digger and it works great.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Yo Baby]

You must be usin' those junky ass Ron's toilet pumps.Those bronze pumps they make aren't worth a shit with their plastic liners and veins.I've been running the same Hilborn 150 pump for nearly five years now with no signs of a problem so far. But I also use VP-M2 upper end lube to the tune of 1oz to 5 gals of methanol. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Blownolds]

But wouldn't an electric booster pump filling a reservor tank and pushing the fuel up to the mechanical pump, prime the mech pump, even if the reservoir tank is lower than the pump? I think that's the way it's done on one guy's street ride I know of.


Then again, another guy I know intends to prime his by using an NOS fuel solenoid... I might even try this is other methods don't work well and if I can hide the solenoid somewhere.

Come to think of it, I guess there's always going to be more than one way to skin a cat. Perhaps some work better than others.

[Blownolds]

I stoped by Kuhl's blower shop today for a pulley and found out that Enderle makes a new metering block that has an input for priming. Seems most racers now prime this way. You hook up a fuel line to it, feeding from an electric pump (Kevin said use a dedicated electric pump so it shuts off after priming), and use a micro switch to feed a little fuel through the metering block into the nozzles. Slick.

I suppose maybe, and this is just my idea, that you could use an NOS fuel solenoid as a microswitch-contolled valve and feed the solenoid off a line from the main fuel line coming from an electric pump (if you are using an electric pump to push fuel forward from a main tank to a reservoir tank). I think I will try this.

[Bugman]

Blownolds, Let me know how that primable metering block works out if you decide to use one. Supose you could take a standard metering block and put a T in the feed line running to it, then put a one way valve in the T'd off line so fuel could go in from another source for priming(like an electric pump) but not be forced out by the mechanical pump once it's running?

-Jeff

[Blownolds]

I have a feeling if Enderle thought the mechanical pump wouldn't somehow force it back to the electric pump they might not have done it that way. Better call them and ask them.

[SamIyam]

I have a question for all you FI guys...

Bob McKray went through out Enderle injection and set it up with Hilborn stuff... no problem there.

And we want a SIMPLE system... he had us run the line from the tank to a Hilborn screen filter, to the new pump he sold us, out of that to a shut off valve w/o a return, to the barrel valve. Off the side of the pump is our line to the pill holder then back to the tank.

My buddy who runs drag boats on alcohol too says we need a idle by-pass and a shut of valve that has a return.

I called Bob and he said that if we don't shut ours off with the fuel shut off at high rpm, we'll be fine... and that with out loose (4400-4800) stall speed converter, we don't need an idle by-pass... he said those are for boats where the motor is going to get lugged down.


Is this kind of what most people have experienced?


Also, what is the proceedure for start up and running this thing? I have a good idea how to work it... but additional input is always helpful.

Thanks,
Sam.

[Blownolds]

I'll print that question off and show it to Bob next week when I go to see him again.

Oh yeah--- Kevin at Kuhl's also said there would be NO problem running a Hilborn or Enderle mechanical pump on the street, that the street miles wouldn't cause the thing to wear out quickly. Perhaps Hilborn or Enderle can verify?

[SamIyam]

Blownolds... I wasn't undermining what Bob told me... I just want to talk with like minded folks who have done this stuff.

Bob's been helpful when I have talked to him... I never thought you'd print out a question I asked and take it to the guy to ask him... FWIW, I have already asked him the question...

Sam.

[Blownolds]

Sorry, I misunderstood. When you said you had a question and then asked about what people have experienced, I somehow got it in my head that you were looking for clarification on that. My bad.

[Doug Evans]

It seems to me the easiest way to get from A to B and do it the way your talking about is this. Hilborn and several other companies offer an EFI unit that goes on a four port manifold. Also they have EFI units that can go on an Hilborn or other stack injectors. Spend the money buy the parts and it's done just like that. No headaches and you can tune it with a laptop!

[Blownolds]

I guess the whole point for me was to avoid running those electronic pieces, but they would make it easier I'm sure.

Anyone planning on mounting your pump on the cam like me, check out the remote water pump offered by Product Engineering . They said it will survive street use with its continuous-duty motor, and that it will flow enough to keep a blown gas engine cool on the street.

http://productengr.com/water_pump.htm