I've had it

[348chevy]

I just came in from the shop. I lost high gear after one run at the Nationals. I have fought clutches and trans from May until now and haven't been able to complete one day of racing. After pulling the transmission I noticed that some debris was hanging out of the clutch. It is a good thing the trans let go because about one more bonzia run the clutch would have exploded. The disk lost a rivet and let a paddle come lose and took out part of the clutch.
I have put about 1500 dollars in the clutch and transmission this summer and it is all gone. I can't afford this kind of carnage so I'm going to become an Outlaw. I'm putting a Powerglide in and it is going to stay in. It is the only way I can afford to play.:mad:Roy

[Ron Golden]

Roy,

I agree 100 %

Ron

[Ryan]

I don't think anyone would blame ya man... Good luck to ya!

[Godzilla]

Welcome to the two pedal club....................Zilla.

[moparsled]

WOOOOOO HOOOOO !!!!!!!!!!!!

win by attrition!!!!!!!!!

one less guy I have to try to beat!

Seriously though- what trans and clutch?

[kenagain]

I just came in from the shop. I lost high gear after one run at the Nationals. I have fought clutches and trans from May until now and haven't been able to complete one day of racing. After pulling the transmission I noticed that some debris was hanging out of the clutch. It is a good thing the trans let go because about one more bonzia run the clutch would have exploded. The disk lost a rivet and let a paddle come lose and took out part of the clutch.
I have put about 1500 dollars in the clutch and transmission this summer and it is all gone. I can't afford this kind of carnage so I'm going to become an Outlaw. I'm putting a Powerglide in and it is going to stay in. It is the only way I can afford to play.:mad:Roy

hey sorry to hear that what combo are you running in the 60's we ran a packard trans and a semi metallic cluthch behind a pumped up v/8 with no problems maybe there is a solution to your problem without the hi expense
Ken

[Rand Man]

348, I understand your frustration and your choice. There's plenty of room in this world for outlaws.

Others; an organic clutch disc might not work the best in this application. Please research racing clutches and manual trans before you build. There are bullet-proof combinations out there.

[Jim Marlett]

Our AHRA record holding '53 Ford used a bone stock '53 three speed with 5,000-6,000 rpm launches. We broke a lot of stuff, but never the trans or clutch. It was a fairly serious flathead pulling a heavy car body.

[348chevy]

I am running a Saginaw 3 speed from Chevy pickup. This is the same trans 2B and Cowboy Bob run. The flywheel is a 153 tooth aluminum flywheel with a steel insert. The clutch is a 10 1/2 in. Zoom competition clutch with a Ram 6 paddle metalic disk. A rivet let go on one of the paddles and let part of the lining come down and takeout part of the spring mechanizism of the clutch. This combination did not slip, the organic disk slipped. If I had it to do over I would go with a Ford toploader 3 speed. The lighter you make your car the easier it is on the clutch and trans mission. If I could put my engine in 2B's car it would easily be in the low 11's and 120mph. I am trying to move to much weight. By starting in second gear you are really taxing the driveline and with a car that weighs 1700 lbs. it is really double jeopardy. I am running into some problems with the powerglide as the starter doesn't engage the flexplate and I have got to space the trans back 9/16 in. so the torque converter will work. The guys in tulsa are running 2 GMC's with powerglides so I know they will help me sort this out.:(Roy

[lindross]

Bummer about the tranny going and also a bummer that another HA/GR car goes. To bad there couldn't be a common ground reached for one HA/GR class. :(

Seems to me there could be 20 cool classic bug style dragsters growing a class instead of two camps of 10 each doing their own similar, yet different thing. Oh well, hopefully both continue to grow.

[Old6rodder]

Ever the optimist, I believe both WILL grow, and flourish in due time.

I also believe both are necessary.
Slush-pumpers bring in folks attracted to the car style but not interested in driving'em '50s style. There are plenty of candidates in this catagory.
Rowers cover the other side of the coin, those who want the full experience of the era. There are plenty of candidates for this aspect as well.

Not all that different from the street scene, eh wot?

Getting the most folks that we might into this particular corner of the hobby means having a place for each candidate's frame of mind. Hang in gentlemen, it'll work. Not in spite of, but because of the vatiety.


Still, I do hate to lose a rower to you damned slush-pumpers. :p :D

[Ron Golden]

Roy,

We're putting the engine in the car tonight and hope to wring it out soon. If we have tranny/clutch problems we're going outlaw also. We can't afford the problems you've encountered. If we go outlaw I'll also go to a single 4 barrel carb. Simplicity usually removes a lot of worry and frustration.

Ron

[Hudsonator]

I can't afford any snafu's either in the tranny dept. I've had enough problems with torque and antiquated 3speeds already in a street setup. We're having problems enough scratching up the dinero to finish the Hossy Hudson engine, much less be bogged down continually with tranny shrapnel. I'm running out of "traditional" parts to keep the Hudson on the road with no serious shenanagans, much less the kind of whacking a HA/GR rail would produce.

I think there's room enough for both classes. Traditional and Outlaw. The fact the Tulsa crowd race more than once a year is a serious consideration in the fun dept, at least for me.

Perhaps most of us are engine fanatics anyway, looking to spotlight our favorite ancient iron out front more than anything else?

Hud

[mudflap261]

Bummer about the tranny going and also a bummer that another HA/GR car goes. To bad there couldn't be a common ground reached for one HA/GR class. :(

Seems to me there could be 20 cool classic bug style dragsters growing a class instead of two camps of 10 each doing their own similar, yet different thing. Oh well, hopefully both continue to grow. define common ground

[Godzilla]

Lost causes:

1) Auto tranny in HA/GR

2) Radial Tires

3) year break to allow the 300 Ford 6cyl

Might as well try to make the wind stop blowing in Oklahoma. Zilla.

[64 DODGE 440]

define common ground

It's that dirt under our feet.

As long as people have been racing they have been breaking stuff.

Some folks will break something every weekend, others will run a whole season with just minor adjustments.

Back in the early '60s we ran a strong flathead in a '53 ford gasser with a street clutch and a stock trans and never broke them. Ran a fairly stock, gutted '50 chevy coupe with a basically stock stovebolt six and put the internals of eight or ten trannys on the street in less than a year.

Finally figured out it had something to do with how I was driving the thing.

[348chevy]

First off, Hooray I went to Gary's and he said bring the car so I went home and brought it to him. We looked and he thought and came up with a simple solution that my mind just didn't see at first. Now everything will work to put the powerglide in. We are running everything that the HA/GR class is running except the slip and slide and a 4 barrel. I personally think I can put a 4 barrel on the trailer with my multiple carb setup. So I'm sticking with that.
On the subject of transmissions, most Packards, Cad- LaSalles, etc are made of unobtainum. When we were racing flatheads in the 50's a 39 Ford box was 15 to 20 bucks, a complete Ford rearend was the same. I had a dragster in 1957 that would meet all the rules except the roll bar wasn't high enough. I ran recap slicks and shelled a trany or rearend about everyother weekend. I got tired of it and bought a Super Stocker that also was the family car. 100 octane gas was 32 cents and it got 8 miles to the gallon but who cared back then. The Ford transmission was 16 years old then and parts were at every parts house. I just read an article that you can buy a Scot blown flathead of 284 cu. in. for $27,000. Now to me that is serious money. It is put together very well like billet main caps etc. But still way out of my league.
I think we can run autos and standards and still be a good group of cars. Some people can make a stick trans work but I didn't seem to have the right touch and I can't afford to keep shelling the things and trying to fix the problem. This was supposed to be a low budget venture and has doubled what I had really planned on putting in it. Without the help of Gary Sellin I would have a $20,000 car. So the auto stays and all the autos can run each other and the standards can run each other and 2b will probably still beat us all.:D Roy

[GlassThamesDoug]

Sounds like maybe you forgot the "pilot bearing"? Never heard of that much damage with a manual trans in a demolition derby car...........................WTF................. ...
That's ok, you must be intelligent to run a 4 speed, your reflexes much coordinate 16 individual rev limiters, a clutch pedal, a shifter, eyes on the tach, and track at the same time, and still look Cool.......................when its all over..................

I saw this on the discovery channel, they found the 4 speed gene.

Automatics do have a place.

[Ryan]

Autos have a place for sure.... And I don't blame anyone for running one. I just think the HA/GR class is better without them. It sure makes you appreciate the dedication of these guys. Above and beyond for sure... And man, do I love to hear them banging gears.

[Mr. Mac]

Well said Roy. It will be interesting to see how many cars there will be in each class next year.
I,m glad Ryan started the outlaw class,way to go Ryan.:)

[Prop Strike]

auto or his brother Manuel, I enjoy watching all the HA/GR rods blast down the track. Two ladders that meet in the end for Mr. Eliminator is my suggestion.

[Oilcan Harry]

This was my biggest concern from the beginning. Breaking lots of old, expensive parts. The low budget part of this really appealed to me but an endless string of busted stuff nullifies that. Guys are not going to be happy when they shell an engine or trans and shell their wallet at the same time.
The auto verses stick argument is over but I still think they should each run in their own classes and the two winners run off HA/GR "top eliminator" style.
Is there some way to handicap automatics to make the sticks and autos more equal? Like autos only get one NON-four barrell carb or something?
Ok I'll go stand in the corner now.

[moparsled]

I'm gonna bang that Lasalle drum once again.

I see side shifts for sale regularly, at least one every two weeks. All different parts of the country. Most for $250 or less, depending on condition. I have yet to find a blown up one. Heck, there's one in the HAMB classifieds right now.

I have two right now, a stock one, and a shortened one. Pictures of the shortened one are in my build posts. I paid $150 for the stocker, and $330 for the shortened one. Shipping from California to Colorado on the shortened one was about $70, but the seller covered it.

I was going to keep my stock one for spares, but if it'll keep one of you in the HA/GR class, I will sell it to you. Furthermore- If you blow it up, I will buy back the remains for what you paid me for it.

[Ryan]

Well said Roy. It will be interesting to see how many cars there will be in each class next year.
I,m glad Ryan started the outlaw class,way to go Ryan.:)

I didn't start an outlaw class... The auto cars run in the dragster class at the HAMB Drags.

[64 DODGE 440]

This was my biggest concern from the beginning. Breaking lots of old, expensive parts. The low budget part of this really appealed to me but an endless string of busted stuff nullifies that. Guys are not going to be happy when they shell an engine or trans and shell their wallet at the same time.
The auto verses stick argument is over but I still think they should each run in their own classes and the two winners run off HA/GR "top eliminator" style.
Is there some way to handicap automatics to make the sticks and autos more equal? Like autos only get one NON-four barrell carb or something?
Ok I'll go stand in the corner now.

Handicapping is totally against what these cars are about. It's run whatcha brung racing.

It is hard to call it racing when someone loses for running too fast, as in the brackets and ET classes, and the idea of having a limit on what you build, other than modern parts, blowers and fuel injection etc. isn't what the class is about either. Might as well bring out the NASCAR restrictor plates or put on minimum weight limits and nothing over 300 cu. in.

What we are trying to have here is true nostalgia racing, with cars built and using the same kind of parts and innovation as was used when it wasn't nostalgia, but real hotrodding.

[Mr. Mac]

I didn't start an outlaw class... The auto cars run in the dragster class at the HAMB Drags.

Ok,Then I take back all I said about you.:D:D
You did put on one hell of a drag race,best ever.

[moparsled]

from the beginning I've wondered where all this talk of low budget racing came from. There's nothing in the rules, and nothing in the "mission statement" at the beginning of the rules a couple years ago, that says the focus of this class is low bux. From what I remember it was "have fun, run hard, show the folks". Yes, an inexpensive car can be built. I think some of the guys are even focusing on that, But there are usually reasons why cheap or free parts are cheap or free. Like it or not, in any kind of racing, parts that don't break are more money.
I gotta think that breaking stuff in these cars is just like the old days. Break a '39 Ford trans, get a Zephyr. Break the Zephyr, get a Buick, Break the Buick, get a Packard or Lasalle. Don't have the patience or the financial wherewithal to go through the growing pains? Back then it was either race, or don't. Sure, we have more options now, and I'm not saying the outlaw/auto isn't a viable one, back then, there weren't as many options.

[breeder]

stupid question.....i know they had autos in the fifties....is it because they were junk , that no one used them back then>???

[Old6rodder]

Early stock slush-pumps weren't very useful in racing due to inefficient torque converters resulting in hp & torque loss on the low end. Only the expensively modified ones could handle any hp to speak of.
There were certainly good ones available for those with the money.

Eventually the cheaper stock ones became good enough for track use to some extent. The Torqueflite was about the best in the low buck bracket.

Also, I'd like to address the low buck question.
Though there's no "low Buck" rule in HA/GR, its entire point of existence is to represent in some form drag racing of the very early fifties (albiet with more available and safer equipment). At that time drag racing was locality oriented, low buck, back street racing practiced mostly by young folk on a shoestring. Hell, the first "official" strip didn't open 'til '53. As a representation of the era "low buck" builds are the purest form of the discipline.

Some of us want essentially a modern car that looks alot like the era.
Some of us want to enjoy (a few to re-enjoy) the era itself as closely as we now might.
The thing we have in common is a fondness for the cars of that period.
The thing we don't have in common is the style of racing we enjoy.
As I've said before, we're two sides of the same coin.

[Oilcan Harry]

Handicapping is totally against what these cars are about. It's run whatcha brung racing.

It is hard to call it racing when someone loses for running too fast, as in the brackets and ET classes, and the idea of having a limit on what you build, other than modern parts, blowers and fuel injection etc. isn't what the class is about either. Might as well bring out the NASCAR restrictor plates or put on minimum weight limits and nothing over 300 cu. in.

What we are trying to have here is true nostalgia racing, with cars built and using the same kind of parts and innovation as was used when it wasn't nostalgia, but real hotrodding.

NO! Looks like you didn't read my next to last line. I guess didn't make myself clear. I know what bracket racing is and I know what "we are trying to have here". Handicap type ET starts are NOT WHAT I MEANT! I meant some rule that penalizes automatics like limiting them to a single 2 barrel carb or something to make the sticks and automatics more equal. Want to run an automatic you'll have to do it with a single 2 barrel carb, and NO TRANS BRAKES! Something like that.

[64 DODGE 440]

NO! Looks like you didn't read my next to last line. I guess didn't make myself clear. I know what bracket racing is and I know what "we are trying to have here". Handicap type ET starts are NOT WHAT I MEANT! I meant some rule that penalizes automatics like limiting them to a single 2 barrel carb or something to make the sticks and automatics more equal. Want to run an automatic you'll have to do it with a single 2 barrel carb, and NO TRANS BRAKES! Something like that.

I got your point.......hence my statement, "Might as well bring out the NASCAR restrictor plates or put on minimum weight limits and nothing over 300 cu. in."

Equality is not what racing is about, nor is the concept of running auto shifters against guys who are using a clutch and shifting their own gears what this class is about.

The concept for the HA/GR is summed up by Ryan in a short post of his from a while back that pretty well sums up the HA/GR spirit.

"I just hope there are at least 1 or 2 guys out there that are banging gears with blinders on and a big ass smile on their face." Ryan

That's what it is all about and that's what it will always be about.

[Old6rodder]

I for one, get what both of you mean.

And the only thing I can think of that MIGHT be practical would be to address the inequity via the original physics of the class.
The modern cars could voluntarily run an inch (or whatever dimension works out reasonably) narrower tire to compete in HA/GR races.
I'm not certain the reverse (+1" or whatever for HA/GRs) would equalize at the same ratio but that also could be considered for HA/GRs to run against moderns in their races.

Thus those wishing to compete "across town" would need no more than a second set of tires for the purpose.

[jeff/21]

There is no such thing as cheap racing just less expensive racing and the best thing is to not change rules so there is a constant and that keeps the price down.

[348chevy]

I ran down the drag strip for the first time in 1956 with my 40 Ford coupe in C Gas. I raced until 1965 and then called a halt and raised a family. In the " Old Days" it still cost money, I worked a part-time job to support my habit. I ran Super Stock and the rules were as tight as HA/GR rules but if you didn't tear your brand new car down and rework the engine you didn't win. That took some money. Perhaps I could have solved the trans problem with my HA/GR but I have simply ran out of money. I can race 8 to 10 times a year with the SDRA guys and race against like cars. It is heads up and with an automatic I can forget about blowing a trans, I hope. The cars are just the same as HA/GR's except for the transmission. I am not advocating the rules be changed for HA/GR's, nor am I advocating that we go to different tires. I don't believe there is much difference between the two and Cowboy Bob and 2B were the only ones in the 12's at MOKAN so the auto's didn't help there. Now I can park the car and wait until I can solve my stick shift problems or I can race and have fun with an auto. I choose the latter. :)Roy

[mudflap261]

IN 05 when all this started there were 3 cars 2 flaties 1 261 chev with pg .flaties had cast iron heads and dual carbs on one , 4 barrel onthe other. chev had 2 one barrel carbs on home intake and acomp cam . 06 rolls around flaties show up 300 inch mills 3 of 400 dollar after market carbs alum heads mallory dist ,3 94s on the other one. cheve get a 90 overbore set of pop up pistons set of homemade hedders same carbs /cam . chev is about 270 cubes . thats spotting F Hs 30 inchs and chev is the heavyist by about 75 lb . That when the F Hs started complaining to Ryan on almost day to day that the pg was unfair and ended up getting us banded. but the real problem was they just flat did know how to tune their engines.and they were breaking trannies and smoking clucths. Tranmissions dont make power they transmit it

[Old6rodder]

Roy,
Sounds somewhat familiar, I hung in 'til '66 but in the lower "stock" classes where it was cheaper all around. Got drafted and picked it up again in '68 when I came home. In the two years off it'd changed so much all I finally wound up doing was spectating for awhile before finally going in other directions (putting mostly, with some street rodding). It was the HA/GR class that coaxed me back in.

From your outlook I'd say you're going the right direction for your situation, likely a wise move.

As to whether the tire thing'll ever be considered, I doubt it. It was just my response to the question posed. 'Til then, both sides'll certainly wind up racing each other from time to time and we'll have fun at it. Hell, we may very well never get that organized anyway.
Come to think of it, it often wasn't very organized then either, I remember all the crap in plain stock class rules from year to year too. They even tried to stem it with a "pure stock" class once, to little avail.

Unlike some here I still believe both iterations will grow, and reinforce each other in the process (think of a PR interpretation of Prop Strike's "ladder" concept). Like families we will always of course, be "enemies" between the lights and the traps. The other 23 hrs, 59 min, 47+ sec @ day it's still us against the world. :D

[Godzilla]

From what I have read in the past I am under the impression that the SDRA cars that run at Tulsa welcome the HA/GR cars to race with them anytime. They are not handicapped, it is ole time heads up racing...run what ya brung.

There is one HAMB race a year that I am aware of and the SDRA cars can not run with the HA/GR cars there. So what is the problem...the HA/GR cars can run at either place.

I have not read anything from the SDRA guys about how they feel that they are being mistreated. So if you have a HA/GR just run it and have fun. If you have a SDRA car then run with the dragsters at the HAMB deal...or not...just have fun.

The rules are...no autos in the HA/GR class. There is a good reason for that and so it is time to just go racing and let it go. There is no way you can loose on this deal...unless you don't build a car . Zilla.

[Old6rodder]

There is no way you can loose on this deal...unless you don't build a car . Zilla.

Bingo.

[Ron Golden]

Oilcan...2 classes with a Top Eliminator sounds good.

Mopar...Good point. I felt I had to make changes to our GMC to keep from breaking it. I can't afford to blow the engine so I put parts in it that I felt would stay where they need to be. I didn't buy most of them...I built them with my own 2 hands and lots of time and sweat.

Old6...Point well made...However there were cars built in the 50's that were just a little nicer, better built, faster and it wasn't just the ones with the most money either. They were still all hot rodders.

Bias tire questions...I talked to the Coker tire rep at MoKan and he said his tires met the minimum DOT speed rating "P" for a sustained 93 mph. That made me feel somewhat better about the bias vs radial tire questions raised by Godzilla and me in the past. I'll shut up about this now.

Ron

[moparsled]

Also, I'd like to address the low buck question.
Though there's no "low Buck" rule in HA/GR, its entire point of existence is to represent in some form drag racing of the very early fifties (albiet with more available and safer equipment). At that time drag racing was locality oriented, low buck, back street racing practiced mostly by young folk on a shoestring. Hell, the first "official" strip didn't open 'til '53. As a representation of the era "low buck" builds are the purest form of the discipline.

you make great points about many from the era racing with no money, but, I would counter that they didn't purposely focus on building and racing on the cheap, they simply didn't have it to spend, and the low buck was the RESULT, not the FOCUS. A biker friend once told me
"Hardcore isn't engineer boots, a leather jacket and a rat Pan/Shovel, it's duct tape on your sneakers so you can AFFORD parts for your Pan/Shovel"
and he was right- not having the money isn't the same as not spending it.

However, I think I've gotten off point, at least partially. The intent of the class, as I see it, is to represent the era. Some do it in looks, some in intent/method. That much I agree on. But, where low buck becomes the focus, to the sacrifice of the vintage aspect, then I believe it has gone astray. That was the point I was trying to make.

[Old6rodder]

"Where low buck becomes the focus, to the sacrifice of the vintage aspect, then I believe it has gone astray."

Ahhh, I managed to miss that aspect of your point. :o No argument with that what so ever.


"There were cars built in the 50's that were just a little nicer, better built, faster and it wasn't just the ones with the most money either. They were still all hot rodders."

Absolutely. I was generalizing (perhaps overly) for the point.

[348chevy]

I'll make one more comment about the Horrible being on hold. I didn't speak to you at MOKAN and I'm sorry since we are both from Missouri. If you saw something at the races that made you want to quit I don't know what it would be. My car made two runs one Ok and the other it broke. Hiney was fighting a ignition problem and was way down on times. The 2B was fighting a fuel delivery problem and solved it by eliminations. This was just racing as it always has been. These cars will slowly improve over the years. I am going to try to shave some weight off mine over the winter in the front end department but they are all the same cars. Hiney's is just like it was 4 years ago except he is working on improving the intake system. All this stuff is homemade except the intakes and heads of the flathead guys. My engine has only high compression pistons my own design intake and headers. My GMC is big in cubes but it is also big in weight. The engine out weighes a flathead by almost double. The Okie Outlaw has a 300 in.flathead and is a twiggy compared my overweight and he squirts out ahead at the line and makes you play catchup all the way down the track. The point is that these cars are not going to be built and then just stay the same for 10 years. It is the nature of racing to get an edge on your competetion and we are not cut throat at it but hopefully we will have fun at it. Even with all my problems this year I have had fun and I will tell you that 2B, Cowboy Bob, Hiney, Joe Hamby, Mr. Mac and all the rest are real gentlemen who make this fun so don't quit just build the Horrible and come to Tulsa and have some fun. Race at Mokan next year and you'll think why did I ever want to quit.:DRoy

[dabirdguy]

Roy,
First off, NOTHING any of you did or said at the Drags caused my decision. You lot are all GREAT folks, answered all my questions and were most affable and cordial. Please do not think for a second that anyone was out of line or did any thing untoward.

The car I have is the issue.
One of the problems with the Horrible is that it is a camel. A camel, for those that don't know, is a horse designed by committee. Comittees mean well, but they just don't work.
Take a hard look at the pictures on my site. Its overbuilt, overweight and without a prpoer body it looks like a flintstone mobile, even after I cut 8" vertically out of the roll cage (pic coming).
The answer MAY be to use this chassis for a street machine and start again on a RACE chassis.
Like I said, the project is on HOLD.

[348chevy]

Well as of today my car is an OUTLAW. The Powerglide is in I ran it through the gears on jack stands and the line pressure is 220 lbs. I changed the hand brake to a footbrake. I also put in all .125 aluminum floorboards. The car idles fine while in gear although up on jackstands I couldn't hold the wheels from turning above 2200 rpm. I can see red lights in my future. All in all I am looking forward to a day at the races without any transmission problems, I hope that is true. I am really excited about friday night in Tulsa, I am as excited as a 7 yearold on Christmas morning.:DRoy

[CrkInsp]

Sounds like you are in need of a smaller Dia. master cyl. O/W, I hear progress. See you in Tulsa.

[Ron Golden]

Roy,

Go to Tulsa and set a new record. I called Todd Bridges today (had to leave a message) and told him we needed some info about the nostalgia race at KCIR October 3,4 & 5.

From what he told me last time we talked, we (HAMB) could run as often as we wanted and set up our own race program. I'll get more info after I talk to him.

Ron

[bob hindman]

K.c. K.c. K.c. The HORNET IS GOING TO K.C. ......

Hiney... One of the HORNETS .....