the Tranny thread

[dabirdguy]

Lets talk tranny's for HA/GR.

I know, for example, that there are LOTS of adapters out there for flatheads.
Everyone I've seen is a wheelbarrow full of nickles. I KNOW the stock Ford tranny's of the day are gonna break, but I can buy a tranny for under $100 if I shop around. To spend $500-$700 for an adaptor for another tranny that costs $200-500 and I'm not certain will be "bullet proof" doesn't make sense to me.

Is there a "bulletproof" tranny for not a fortune?
Where does one go for lower dollar adaptors?

[Rand Man]

After much wailing and nashing of teeth, I believe I have found a bulletproof trans.

[Hudsonator]

After much wailing and nashing of teeth, I believe I have found a bulletproof trans.

I am all ears.

[Mercury Kid]

I'm going to run a toploader 3-spd from a V-8 Mustang behind my six. It was free and my dad is tired of it taking up space in his garage. The stock sixer 3-spd is about the size of a folgers can so I think it would probably end up lodged in my crotch if I tried to run it.

[FiddyFour]

After much wailing and nashing of teeth, I believe I have found a bulletproof trans.

yes. the audience is waiting sir

[dabirdguy]

Don't make us come VISIT you........

[Drewfus]

ok.....not entirely sure why it seems to be so hard, as it's really not hard to adapt whatever box you can get your mits on to make it work. For the flathead here in oz it's easy to adapt a 'single rail' style box, or toploader, and if you're cheap like me, I used what I had easy access to, a common (in oz) holden (GM) 3 speed, using a common pressed belhousing from the 8ba, I machined the box input cover a 'smidge' to locate the box accurately in the housing, I machined up 4 bits of bar, drilled & tapped to suit, and welded them on the inside of bellhousing to suit box. That just left the spigot bearing, which I machined up another one out of brass to suit the offset and diameter...then using a mix'n'match of items, it all bolted together, costing $50 for the box, and a weekend of my time.

I appreciate that not everyone has access to a lathe, but the process really isn't that hard? Dimensionally I'm sure there is something close enough for you guys to use thats cost effective and robust.

I'm going to run a toploader 3-spd from a V-8 Mustang behind my six.

Using the same B/W. box behind my slant (although with the input spline having the chrysler version of the spline count). The speedway guys swear by them (that's where I got mine from $100, with a spare just in case I'm prooved wrong), so far so good.

My point is that whilst it takes a bit of stuffing around, asking questions, measuring stuff, it really isn't that hard to adapt things, using a bit of common sense, and what's availible, it can be done without big $$$ or elaborate machinery, and still work fine.

Cheers,

Drewfus

[348chevy]

As you guys know I have experienced transmission problems. My transmission was a saginaw 3 speed that I bought at a junk yard. I didn't take it apart and ran it like it was and I lost the sencros the last time out. After tearing the trans down it was worn out. The input shaft, sencro drum, idler shaft and some other things. I believe that if you get a trans that is from the 60's it is overdue for a complete teardown and rebuild if you want any reliability out of it. I am still waiting for Rand man to tell us what he considers the bullit proof trany.:confused:Roy

[Rand Man]

Mercury Kid and Drewfus have the right idea. The mid-'60's top loader three speed (from a V8) is the same basic design as the top loader four speed, from the same era. Many swear the top loader four speed is the strongest factoy designed manual trans. The name comes from the fact that the gears are assembled through the top of the case, not the side. It is still a side shift.

The best thing is to find a complete 390 (and up) Galaxie or Monteray. A 289 Mustang might not be the same. A trans from a six cyl anything is right out of the question. I bought a couple(and was doated one) of the weaker versions before I got an expert identification. I can't tell you exactly how to identify the heavy duty model, but the input shaft is much bigger.

Also, get yourself a decent pickup truck and a trailer, or you'll end up stuck on the sidelines (like me).

[bobw]

What are the slant six guys using for a transmission???

[Mercury Kid]

Yeah, as Rand Man said, the differance between a "big" V-8 trans and a "small" V-8 trans is easily seen upon sight. Something like .125 on the input and output shafts. The "big" transmissions will be completely bulletproof for what we are throwing at them. The "small" ones shouldn't have any problems unless they are shot to begin with. The "small" 3-spd's are cheap if not free, but the larger trannys are more if you can even find them in the 3-spd variety. "Big" four gears are goin for about 500 around here, in "rebuilt like new" condition last time I checked.

I plan to make/find a two wheel trailer to tow my HA/GR with my Comet. Hopefully.

[Hudsonator]

Are you talking about the T-85 borg warner used behind Ford FE's? I was considering one of those with an OD for the driver Hudson. Found in FE powered trucks, LTD's, etc with the 390/325hp.

I like that, yes I do.

Hud

[Ron Golden]

I think it would be cool to flat tow it. That's what we did "back then".

Ron

[Hudsonator]

I think it would be cool to flat tow it. That's what we did "back then".

Ron

I'd really like to tow mine on a light trailer with my '49 Super Six coupe. It surely has more pulling power than my 1/2 ton truck. Better suspension too. The irony here is that I was considering a T-85 with an R11 OD unit from a Ford truck to adapt to the car. Supposedly the highest capacity electric OD tranmission ever built.

Looks like the drivelines of both vehicles will be very similiar.

[flatheadgary]

i have access to a jeep 3 speed trans top loader, would this be strong enough? i know these are used behind v8 flatty's to put the shifter on top like a ford box. iv'e only seen these in street use, what about drag use. anybody know?

[Rand Man]

The Jeep unit is pretty cool. I'm not sure about the size of the bearings and gears inside, but the top should be interchangable. The trouble with a top shift is that you really can't shift them fast. If you miss a shift -- bad news.

Hud, I would have to research that and get back to you. I do know for sure that they were used in GM applications. A buddy of mine had a '69, 400HO, GTO that had one. We tried very hard to break it.

[REJ]

bobw, I tried a three speed out of a car and it locked up in second gear with me. I have not torn it down to see what the problem is. In the meantime, I have installed a tranny out of a truck. It weighs about a hundred pounds more than the three speed, but I ran it behind a stock motor for the first year and never had a problem out of it.
This is the tranny that has the granny first gear. Of course, you will not be using that gear unless it is to load it on the trailer. This is kinda nice, you just put it in gear and let it idle up on the trailer.
The guy that won at last years drags was running a three speed out of a car and did not seem to have a problem. The one that locked up with me was used and I did not tear it down to see if it was in good shape.
Robert

[ThingyM]

Hey Gary!! What do you have for a tranny behind your flathead in the altered ???. It seems to be hanging together pretty good....

[flatheadgary]

ah, it's got a c4 automatic. i built this about 15 years ago. at that time there wasn't much of a revival in nostalgic stuff. anra was gone and ndra was on the way out and goodguys hadn't started a drag series in socal yet. at the time, there was only the antique nationals at palmdale to run. i always loved this event because you could "run what you brung" and they brought some wild stuff. with the space limitations in my altered, an automatic was the best way to go. it is more consistent and, as i run in the new anra series, against 10 and 11 second altereds and dragsters, i need all the advantage i can get. they are always trying to beat my little flatty up. those mean old overheads. boo,hoo,hoo. i have a scotty finn type fed with a flatty i am also trying to build, it has a '39 truck trans and will run 2-3 only. it will look like the '50's type, full moons and white wall slicks.

[Hudsonator]

The Jeep unit is pretty cool. I'm not sure about the size of the bearings and gears inside, but the top should be interchangable. The trouble with a top shift is that you really can't shift them fast. If you miss a shift -- bad news.

Hud, I would have to research that and get back to you. I do know for sure that they were used in GM applications. A buddy of mine had a '69, 400HO, GTO that had one. We tried very hard to break it.

Oh man, I would really appreciate that. I'm not so worried about case adaptation to a bellhousing as much as input shaft configuration. A GM based input shaft situation would be much easier to deal with and hook up with clutches etc.

On the Jeep transmisions, they are not all the same. I'm running Jeep T-90 synchros and countershaft bearings in the T-86's original to Hudsons. Jeeps from the 40's 50's mid 60's had the T-86 and some had the T-90. Later Jeeps had another B/W variant with no side shift provisions whatsoever. If your Jeep transmission has the casting with the unmachined side shift "tits" on it - its a T-86/90 of some kind. Its hard to tell the difference between the two, its kinda like the T-85 we're talking about - its all in the input shaft diameter. T-86's normally had 1.00" input shafts while the T-90 had a 1.125" input shaft. The differences are the input shaft diameter, the input shaft needle bearings diameter and length, and the diamter of the mainshaft's input needle race. The T-90 being the larger of the two. The mainshaft gears, cluster gear and shaft, and synchro unit are all common.

The T-86 uses a helical constant mesh, input gear while the T-90 is a straight cut gear with beefier teeth. You can swap internals between the two as long as you find the appropriate crossbred input and output bearings or machine out the T-86 case for the larger T-90 bearings. The countershaft bearings are identical. As far as the synchro units and blocker rings being any stouter in one than the other, nope - same unit. Neither have a synchronised 1st or reverse, and trying to make a quick shift from 1st to 2nd isn't going to happen regardless of your shifter type. 2nd the 3rd, can be made as fast as you want if your blocker rings and synchro drum/shift collar is burr free and slick.

These transmissions were the jewel of the orphans. Packard, Kaiser, Hudson, Willys, Studebaker - all the automotive uses were the T-86 and R10 OD when so equipped. Jeep used the T-90 with its bigger input shaft etc. The weaknesses are the input shaft diameter at 1.00", cluster gear axle/bearing/end play tolerances, and the synchro drum retainer clip. One neat aspect is the ability to top shift or side shift. The T-90 was the only one with the factory top shift, but because they have all the same mainshaft dimentions common to the T-86 the top shifter will work on both.

These and their earlier variants, the single lever B/W are the only 3 speeds I know anything about firsthand. The 1.00" input shafts are the only things I've cracked up, but haven't subjected them to anything like you guys put them through (and I want to). I was told, but haven't checked it out myself, that the synchro system for 2nd and 3rd (or 3rd and 4th in a 4 speed) was common to all Borg Warner transmissions all the way through production. Including the T-85.

That's all I have to offer in the way of trans tech, I'm back to being all ears.

Hud

[moparsled]

just cuz I like being a persistent pain in the ass- the Lasalle input is 1.250" ten spline.

Apparently there is an International truck trans that uses this spline, and I know for a fact that the Dodge Fluid drive car trans uses this spline. I'm sure there are others, I just don't know them.

In my case, with the Dodge flathead six, Chevy Lakewood bellhousing and block plate, '51 Dodge truck flywheel (with 168 tooth Chevy ring gear) and pressure plate, the input shaft is too long. Here pretty soon we're going to address that issue, either with a spacer, or with machining to the input. I'm sure I'll have pictures when that all takes place.

[Mercury Kid]

Anybody know what the straight six Ford guys are using for a bellhousing?

[FiddyFour]

Anybody know what the straight six Ford guys are using for a bellhousing?


the stock ford bell...

other than startin from scratch, its the only option... the first generation OHV ford sixes didnt share a pattern with the y-block. the second generation OHV sixes might have a common pattern with the 8 hole motors, but i have no idea if they do or not

[Rand Man]

Stock "stamped steel" bells have been fine so far. Nobody has blown a flywheel yet (thank God).

I heard that Hindman blew a tranny once, (but he doesn't like to talk about it).

[FiddyFour]

i wish i could find a stamped bell... boy would that make things simple

[mudflap261]

the hornet in 350+ plus runs on the pg broke the ear off the low band Speed Merchants have destroyed 2 trannys and smoked at least one clutch same story for Ramrods crooked 6 broke a pressure plate on the line 2b got one that Iknow of ,348 has got one.Joe Hamby killed a engine over malfunctioning std tranny . the 350 runs doesnt count all the runs behind the shop

[kenagain]

i wish i could find a stamped bell... boy would that make things simple


Hey I have a6 cyl cast bell n tranny out of a 55 truck if that helps

short tail shaft big input spline worked excellent when pulled I have a floor shifter with linkage also I used with it
Ken

[sgtmcd42]

I ran a stock chrysler a903 behind my slant. it is the 3 spd tranny that chrysler put behind about 800 billion slant sixes. I never had any issues with it. I have a couple laying around if any one needs one.

[desertratrodder]

I'm going to run a toploader 3-spd from a V-8 Mustang behind my six. It was free and my dad is tired of it taking up space in his garage. The stock sixer 3-spd is about the size of a folgers can so I think it would probably end up lodged in my crotch if I tried to run it.


If you are running a 170, you have a few issues with that combo.

first, you see the differences in the splined shafts. The clutches are 8 1/2 inch on 6 bangers and 10 inches on v8's.
Maybe not enough to make a big difference. The bolt pattern for the 170 and 200 are different. You could mate a v8 trans to a 200 bell, but not to the 170 without mods.

The big input/ output Big Block Ford 4spds cost an arm and a leg around here. I sold one for $1500 recently.
Look for tags that start with RUG- . That is supposedly for rugged.

You might have other issues like clutch fork alignment, input shaft length, etc.
I'd say if you can find a 200 you will have a easier time putting it all together.
But free is good.

But anything can be done!

Good luck.

[FiddyFour]

Hey I have a6 cyl cast bell n tranny out of a 55 truck if that helps

short tail shaft big input spline worked excellent when pulled I have a floor shifter with linkage also I used with it
Ken

the offer is greatly appreciated, but i already have two or three cast bells layin around for the Gen-1 OHV ford sixes, couple OD trans and one 3 speed box that i plan on using... now if i grenade the trans... :D

[Mercury Kid]

If you are running a 170, you have a few issues with that combo.

first, you see the differences in the splined shafts. The clutches are 8 1/2 inch on 6 bangers and 10 inches on v8's.
Maybe not enough to make a big difference. The bolt pattern for the 170 and 200 are different. You could mate a v8 trans to a 200 bell, but not to the 170 without mods.

The big input/ output Big Block Ford 4spds cost an arm and a leg around here. I sold one for $1500 recently.
Look for tags that start with RUG- . That is supposedly for rugged.

You might have other issues like clutch fork alignment, input shaft length, etc.
I'd say if you can find a 200 you will have a easier time putting it all together.
But free is good.

But anything can be done!

Good luck.

Yeah, I noticed that they don't really fit together but I think it'll be ok. I have a bellhousing for a 200 and I think I can modify it to make it work but I'm pretty sure it's cast aluminum, can't remember. That's why I was wondering what guys were running. I did a google search and found a couple of guys in Oz running 170 ford motors. Anybody know them?

[348chevy]

If you run a stock bellhousing you will need a scattershield. Make sure it is of good quality because you have to have feet to walk on and push the gas and clutch pedal.:eek:Roy

[Mercury Kid]

And where might I find a scattershield for a Ford six cylinder that has been completely ignored by the aftermarket until the last ten years?

[Drewfus]

And where might I find a scattershield for a Ford six cylinder that has been completely ignored by the aftermarket until the last ten years?

1/4" plate over the clutch/flywheel area seems to satisfy most legislature's.....so that's what we did....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/DrewfusDesigns/HAGR/NET271106054.jpg

Cheers,

Drewfus

[Rand Man]

I was just repeating a joke implying he "blew a tranny". I don't really think it's true. Humor doesn't read well over the internet.

[Mercury Kid]

1/4" plate over the clutch/flywheel area seems to satisfy most legislature's.....so that's what we did....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/DrewfusDesigns/HAGR/NET271106054.jpg

Cheers,

Drewfus

Thank you, that's excellent! It will solve almost all of my bellhousing/transmission issues all at once.

[dabirdguy]

I was just repeating a joke implying he "blew a tranny". I don't really think it's true. Humor doesn't read well over the internet.

Well, there WAS that grease on his upper lip that day....

[348chevy]

Well I thought I would say a little bit about what I've been trying to accomplish with my transmission. I took it apart and took it to a transmission shop which does standard transmissions and who knows how to modifiy them for racing, I hope. I want this transmission business to be fixed. As I said before my trans was worn out when I took it apart. One thing that Mr. Lane recommended was to cut every other tooth off the slider. That was a job that took two weeks to do. You can't just get in there with a grinder and start making metal fly. I finally found a shop that has a machine that cuts metal with electricity not an arc. This machine has a 1 thousandths tolerance and is amazing to watch. The only thing is you must make a mirror image of what you want cut out of graphite. I now have the trans back together and we will see if it cures my shifting woes.:)Roy

[moparsled]

I took it to a transmission shop which does standard transmissions and who knows how to modifiy them for racing, I hope. One thing that Mr. Lane recommended was to cut every other tooth off the slider.

I was talking to a guy the other day about my Lasalle, and he reccommended the same thing. I don't guess I quite understand, but supposedly it aids in shifting without a clutch? I'd like to hear more about these mods. The Lasalle is reputed to be a slow-shifting trans, anything to speed it up would be cool.

[sgtlethargic]

I was just repeating a joke implying he "blew a tranny". I don't really think it's true. Humor doesn't read well over the internet.

I assume the tranny was functional ...

[Hudsonator]

What are you fellas calling the "slider". The first/reverse gear on the mainshaft, or the synchro collar for 2nd/3rd.

Or is it something else altogether?

Hud

[348chevy]

I believe the true name is the sleave on the synchronizer. This is the sleave that slides back and forth between second and high gear. It is the one the shifter fork controls. :)Roy

[Hudsonator]

I believe the true name is the sleave on the synchronizer. This is the sleave that slides back and forth between second and high gear. It is the one the shifter fork controls. :)Roy

gotcha!

Thanks for the reply.

Hud

[sgtlethargic]

I'd like some confirmation on this because I've got lines on different 3-speed toploaders and you probably know how excited you get when you're panning for gold and find a nugget.

This one's a RAN AZ (http://www.davidkeetoploaders.com/3speedidchart.htm), so it's from a 170-powered '70 Mavrig. From "A trans from a six cyl anything is right out of the question" I gather that I shouldn't bother with it. Is it smaller, more like a 2.77 Falcon trans than a V8 toploader? BTW, has anyone got a link to a torque rating ID chart for toploaders?

And please clarify "I bought a couple ... of the weaker versions before I got an expert identification". Are the weaker versions you're referring to the 6-cyl or the small block V8 trans?

So, is the "small 6" toploader no good for an HA/GR, the "big 6 / small block V8" toploader a maybe, and the "big block V8" (352(?)/390) gold?

Thanks,
Kurt

Mercury Kid and Drewfus have the right idea. The mid-'60's top loader three speed (from a V8) is the same basic design as the top loader four speed, from the same era. Many swear the top loader four speed is the strongest factoy designed manual trans. The name comes from the fact that the gears are assembled through the top of the case, not the side. It is still a side shift.

The best thing is to find a complete 390 (and up) Galaxie or Monteray. A 289 Mustang might not be the same. A trans from a six cyl anything is right out of the question. I bought a couple(and was doated one) of the weaker versions before I got an expert identification. I can't tell you exactly how to identify the heavy duty model, but the input shaft is much bigger.

...

[sgtlethargic]

What about an Econoline (short) transmission? The one I have is from a 170-powered Econoline. Is it a reconfigured 2.77 trans? How rugged is it? What about a 240-powered Econoline trans?

Thanks,
Kurt

[sgtlethargic]

Any thoughts on using a T5?

Thanks,
Kurt

[Rand Man]

I wouldn't go anything less than the V8 '60's toploader. Someone should buy mine for Christ's sake. I might consider a payment plan.

[ratster]

what about straight 6 chevy? what works the best

[64 DODGE 440]

Don't know about the Chevy trans, but we're keeping with the concept and running a '34 Dodge three speed toploader behind our flathead 6, long lever and all.:p

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7875/rabbit311099.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rabbit311099.jpg)

[sgtlethargic]

Don't know about the Chevy trans, but we're keeping with the concept and running a '34 Dodge three speed toploader behind our flathead 6, long lever and all.:p

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7875/rabbit311099.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rabbit311099.jpg)

I dig the horizontal steering wheel. What steering box and such?

[64 DODGE 440]

It's a small aluminum "metric" box of unknown parentage, very light. The rest of the setup is self fabricated.

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/5140/hagrbox.jpg (http://img5.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hagrbox.jpg)

[moparsled]

what about straight 6 chevy? what works the best

Don't know which Chevy you're referring to, but, do like I did- swap meet a used Lakewood for $175. For a 194 it'll bolt up, for a 235 (or any other engine for that matter) it's a simple redrill of the block plate. The bell I bought was drilled for Chevy pattern and Ford toploader both. Bolt the toploader and fill with clutch. RACE!!

added benefits-- lack of fab time for a built scattershield, weight savings of the stock bell, and, not to be taken lightly, that the tech guy at your track won't look at you sideways for running the Lakewood.

[Old6rodder]

and, not to be taken lightly, that the tech guy at your track won't look at you sideways for running the Lakewood.

A-f'ing-men!