GMC on the dyno

[Ron Golden]

After 2 years of designing and building our GMC I finally put the pan and valve cover on it today. I swear to God I've sweated, worried and cussed more with this engine than any of the $25000 + one's that have gone thru the shop. One of the partners has to finish welding up the headers, then it's going on the dyno...hopefully next weekend.

Any estimates on the peak horsepower it will make? That's assuming it doesn't shit parts all over the dyno room.

The engine is similar to Roy's GMC except there are a few things on mine that Roy didn't get. Hell, I can't give all my secrets away. (Grinning)

Ron :rolleyes:

[Hudsonator]

Have you not run it yet?

I'll make a guess.

Peak Hp 295-305 hp @ 4800-5000 rpm
Peak torque, 425-435 ft/lbs @ 2800-3000

The catch to starting a thread like this - is that you'll have to tell now.

Looking forward to the results.

Hud

[lindross]

Ehh, it's gonna blow parts everywhere. :D

Just kiddin, Bubba's never dynoed any of his Jimmy's but I don't see why a well built GMC without the high dollar head wouldn't give ya 250-300hp.

[Ron Golden]

I'm hoping to make 1 HP per cubic inch (321 cubic inch). Anything over that (my fingers are crossed) will be an early Christmas for me. I wish I had Roy's header but my partners want the individual runners without a collector. They think it will look more "period perfect".

Maybe I can borrow Roy's header when I dyno our engine. That way I can do a comparison.

Any more estimates?

Ron

[buffaloracer]

I don't know what cam you are running but I'm going to guess in the 325 range hp wise and 400 lbs torque. Corrected values of course if it is as hot and humid in KC as it is here.

[Ron Golden]

Cam:
Intake 252* @ .050", .577" lift at the valve
Exhaust 259* @ .050, .613" lift at the valve
The cam was ground by Dema Elgin to match the cylinder head flow, CSA, rod ratio, etc. Kinda expensive but hopefully worth it.

Hud,
Have you ever had one of the Hudsons on a dyno? I considered the 308" Hudson, 320" Buick
and the Ford flathead but for various reasons figured the GMC would make the most power.

Ron

[Hudsonator]

Actually I haven't had one that I've built on a Dyno. I hope to have one dynoed eventually. I have a project engine that has been in the making the same period as you evidently have been working on yours. I'm not finished yet, and just got set back as I found out I can't run this HA/GR - SDRA gig with triple webers.

My ballgame is kinda upset right now on that account, I'm scrambling around a bit to find something else and see how that's gonna change things. Who knows? I may be running triple sidedraft John Deere Duplex carbs before this is over! Circa '55.

I've just now found you guys, so I'm way behind. But, at least I have a goal for the engine and some inspiration to get the heck on with it.

I'm at 358 CID. Which is as big as I can get, turn 5000-5500 rpms, keep the stock block, and any degree of reliability. I'm really only camming mine to peak out at 4800 for longevity's sake. I've heard stories about Hudson's on dynos, but have seen no papers on other's efforts to give you anything I could verify. So, I took on my own project just to know. Being a flathead fan, an inline fan, and a Hudson fan - my choices were kinda already made.

I'm shootin' for the hp range I guessed yours at, but a few more ft/lbs of torque.

I really like your dual pattern camshaft, alot. With lifts like that, I'm wondering at your expected rpm range.

Mark

[Hudsonator]

One more thing Ron, you overlooked a damn good OHV choice in your lineup.

Nobody hardly pays attention to them in the inline world, but are DEMONS!

International Harvester, Silver or Black Diamonds. They are in the timerange, and deadly inlines in the right hands. I'm secretly wishing you had employed your know-how to one of those.

God help us all if somebody got serious with one of those!

I've competed against many a Black Diamond on the pulling track, even with a 300+ hp 292 (312 CID) chevy - and LOST. BADLY.

Hud

[Ron Golden]

Thats a big Hudson. You should be able to make some serious TQ with your engine. I remember a black 54 Hudson that ran NHRA during the 60's. He was running one of the stock classes and held the record for years.

My cam is bigger, duration wise, than I thought it would be but Dema Elgin wanted to get the intake valve open at a certain point after TDC to take advantage of the max intake flow without making the acceleration rate too high and losing reliability. He also tailored the exhaust opening point to reduce the pumping losses. The cam lobes look more like a roller than a flat tappet.

I want to keep the rpm in the 5000-5500 range. Again reliability is important. I'm sure I can turn the engine quite a bit tighter but I'll just turn it tight enough to win. Each piston/rod/pin/ring package is more than 1.3 pounds lighter than the stock 302. I just hope your Hudson rods hold up.

We just ported an International cylinder head for a pulling tractor. The ports have been welded twice so far and we just filled the water passages with Blok Rok. I initially looked at some of the tractor & truck engines but considered the weight to be too great.

Ron

[mudflap261]

RON I hope you make your one hp per cubic inch ,has that ever been done? It should be quite a show .remember it has to go though a SIX INCH TIRE that is slightly softer than concrete .Looking forward to show at MOKAN

[Ron Golden]

From a couple of books I've read the "old timers" in the 50 & 60's were making just under 1 Hp/cid. However, you have to realize the technology has changed drasticly. The days of installing a set of headers, a taller gear and a set of slicks won't cut it in todays world. One of the 2.0 L Honda engines we did the machine work on recently made 860 HP on a chassis dyno. Turbo's and #36 of boost.

Will I make 1Hp/cid? I don't know. Every time I tune an engine on our dyno I learn something. After 50 years of doing this I'm finally getting smart enough to start asking questions. I think I have a decent old GMC, but fate sometimes deals us a hand we don't want to play. The thing may spit parts all over the dyno room.

I have to admit, the 6" tire will be a challenge, as it has been for everyone so far. That certainly levels the playing field to some degree.

But....thats racing. I love it!

Ron

[Hudsonator]

I can't believe a black diamond is much heavier than a 302 Jimmy. Sure we're talking the same IH engine family?

I'm actually rooting for you too, I have a soft spot for any vintage engine getting the "treatment". We're gonna return your concern for my rods with my own concern for your crank above 5500.

[Ron Golden]

I don't think we're talking about the same International family.

Thanks for the moral support on my Jimmy. The GMC heavy crank and only 4 main bearings was the reason I went with the lighter components. I'm also going to keep it below 5500 if possible. The GMC guys that run at Bonneville say the critical rpm is right at 6000 where there's a dangerous harmonic that can kill the crank. Keep the rpm below, or above, 6000.

How much compression can you get in the Hudson engines? How much valve lift? Do you run 30 degree seats on the intakes due to the low lift's?
I'd like to build one to see what I could get out of it.

Ron

[Hudsonator]

I want to clarify my build a little. I'm not shooting for the moon component-wise. I was hoping to build a repeatable short block stroker engine with stuff anybody could find and use in an unmodified block. The only block modification I'm pulling is for a full pressure oil filter, which is a simple trick. Most folks modify the oil pump, but I wanted to be able to swap pumps without any modifications to the pump. Simple 7x valves that can be bought off the shelf, lightly modified, and installed with common valve seat machining. Not pushing the envelope there. 2.012" in and 1.650" ex.

The uncommon bugger is the crank treatment and flow work. I'm departing from traditional 7x reliefs. The ports are no problem, and already excessive. Its the transition from valve to cylinder that is the nastiness. Port velocity here, is the ticket. You need just the right velocity to bend things like you want when you want, but not too much. There is where I've spent too much time on a cracked block as a dummy/test. I've been screwing around with what you can pull off under a stock valve diameter situation too - just for kicks. I'm really a budget minded fella looking to help other Hudson folk with budget oriented stuff. Which is why I really don't mind backing off the Weber thing, because they are pricey for your average Joe and I just lucked into a cache of weber carbs off sixes that were on somebody's shelf. The crank has always been the holdup to these engines, and why I dropped some bucks on it. I speculated that a serious Hudson fella would do the same.

So, I'm not in your leauge - at all.

But, you learn things along the way that could get you to the moon, of you so choose.

Max usable compression in a 308: 9.5-10.0. Beyond this, you start hurting yourself. If you build one to run lower rpms at peak hp, you can get tighter. Its all in what you're hunting for.

358: 11.0-11.5. I'm only going for 9.75. Ya never know, when I do decide to shoot for the moon - this engine might see the open highway. And if somebody followed me, they'd likely want the recipe for the road, so I'm shooting for 9.75. Same thing applies. You can get tighter, but you're cutting your topend down.

When I became interested with Hudson speed in '99, I actually called Smokey Yunick as he was listed in the HET club as an advisor. He talked to me for a long time about alot of stuff, I was too awe-struck to reply much and enjoyed listening to the tech/stories. Two things I will never forget him saying were, "Its easy to get 290hp from a Hudson 308, its next to impossible to get anything over 300. That last 10 hp will cost you as much as several 290's to build." On the topic of stroking: "It won't gain you a single horsepower, but will add 100 ft/lbs of torque to your peak."

Max lift in a stock cam tunnel, .535" depending on your base circle diameter. You could get more but start having headaches. Head clearance is as much as you want to cut out of the head.

Yes, 30* intake seats and 45* exhaust. The valve underside backcut has everything in the world to do with your transition action.

Flatheads are strange buggers, and not to be compared with ohv's. They just aren't the same in many respects and you have to re-learn alot you thought you knew. Which is what I've enjoyed about this whole journey with mopars and Hudsons. But, there is more possible with a Hudson than any other common flathead I've seen. Mainly because of the valve location relative to the cylinders and the generous 12 ports in the block.

I'd like to see you take one on, as you seem to have resources and capabilities I don't.

I'm out just to have a little fun with my engine and hopefully inspire some folks to use these great old pieces. I figured the 6" tire rule and makeup of the HA/GR - type cars would be the perfect platform to have that fun. I wish I had paid more attention to this class before now.

Hud

[Ron Golden]

Hud,
It sounds like your as deep into Hudsons as I am into GMC's. It really doesn't matter which engine you pick, their just hunks of metal. What you do with those hunks determine the end result. And that's the interesting part for me. I like to build engines.

Have you flowed your intake and exhaust ports on a flow bench? I know that years ago we use to relieve the block on flathead engines but later (and wiser) engine builders relieved the head to get a better transition from port to combustion chamber. It seems the air/fuel didn't want to make the abrupt transition from valve to chamber when you just relieved the block.

My best friend at the machine shop followed Smokey's every word and talked to him every few weeks for years. My Guru has been David Vizard. Between the two of them we could usually get a good answer to any question that came up.

It's interesting that the Hudson hits a brick wall at 290 HP. Did Smokey elaborate on why this happened? At first thought I assume it's valve lift/airflow/CR related.

By the way, welcome to the forum. It's nice to have another gearhead on board. I wish you were in the Kansas City area, I'd like to learn more about Hudson engines.

Ron

[Hudsonator]

To tell you the truth, I feel like I'm muddying up your GMC thread. I can't help it, I'm interested in your GMC.

I don't have good, honest to gosh, flow bench numbers. All I have is an Audie Flow Quick, and a not so dependable depression device (vacuum cleaner). The materials I'm working with are junk and were used to get rough ideas. I do have an ally here, Joe Mondello. He's ready to put the real numbers to it on a better test mule block (still cracked - I have alot of those) with a new set of seats and help me jump the hump with his own input when I can scratch up the money. That's where we'll dyno it as well. Our intention is to wet flow it under a mock acrylic head and really check out my theories. There has been so much speculation on these engines with no hard data, I wanted to change that. Actually, all my parts for this engine except the head and intake - is at Joe's now.

I completely agree with your flow theory, and have used it on the engines I'm running now. Hudsons have a factory relief and a valve cant towards the cylinder that has to be dealt with, so one can't escape the relief completely. However, I do install seats as high as possible in the block, deck it at least .025" and keep the relief as shallow as I can. Most of what I do is in the transfer slot of the head and using the relief area to "bend" the air stream by adhesion. I can tell a difference based on a bone stock 308 I run in my Wasp, and a mildly worked over 308 in my Super Six. I'm running a 308 on the street with 8.2 compression now.

I do have a camshaft secret, that I'm not telling. Its unique to flatheads, so you can't use it. I'm hoping it breaks the 10hp barrier Smokey talked about so long ago. He gave me some general cam numbers in this area, and I know he didn't do what I'm doing with it.

He never really mentioned what the 10 hp wall was, just that is was more expensive to break that it was worth. Unfortunately, he passed away before I could even get the first engine project started. He and Jack Clifford passed away within months of each other, and kinda left my generation of Hudson fanatics to reinvent the wheel.

I kinda wish I was in the Tulsa area too. At least for a while.

Hud

[Ron Golden]

Hud,
I had to laugh when you mentioned the vacuum cleaner being used to flow your ports. That's what I started with and learned a lot, especially when you shoot some dycum into the port to show you where the air/fuel will go. Kind of a cheap wet flow bench.

Mondello has developed airflow to a new science. My god he must be 80 years old by now. I'd bet money on you finding that illusive 10 HP, and more.

Something to keep in the back of your mind....air doesn't like to turn more than 7 degrees without losing attachment and going turbulant. It's better to make several 7* changes rather than fewer larger changes.

Keep me up to date on your progress.

Ron (goldenri@aol.com)

[Hudsonator]

I'll remember that 7* info, thanks. Does that change with different velocities? I had been using HVAC smoke bombs to watch things to the degree I could, which really isn't enough. Just holding them lit in front of the port and letting the smoke go on through.

I was as awe-struck by meeting Joe as talking to Smokey on the phone. He's been really nice to me, which I appreciate a great deal.

Progress is slow because money is tight. I could just finish it, but I want those hard numbers.

I'm looking forward to your Jimmy numbers.

Hud

[GMC BUBBA]

Ron,

What are you using for a fuel system ??

[CrkInsp]

The 7* becomes important when you add fuel to the mix.
Check out diyporting.com .
Rubber molds of a port can be used to cast plaster blocks with the port shape in them to experment on (cheeper and easier than the real thing). Home made velocity probes and a yard stick manometer can also help.

[Hudsonator]

The 7* becomes important when you add fuel to the mix.
Check out diyporting.com .
Rubber molds of a port can be used to cast plaster blocks with the port shape in them to experment on (cheeper and easier than the real thing). Home made velocity probes and a yard stick manometer can also help.


Fellas, thanks for the info. I do appreciate it very much. I have a pretty good ways to go. As y'all can tell, I'm more of an engine man than car fabricator. So, I have a steep hill in front of me to climb.

So, I'm thinking the 7* situation is related to the fuel droplet's mass vs. the mass of the air molecules? This whole situation is re-inspiring me to get on with this engine project. I have admittedly let it lay for a while.

Hud

[CrkInsp]

The 7* is with or w/o fuel. Fuel just makes it show up more.
Fuel droplet size with a surface to volume ratio approaching 1/1 would be ideal, BUT, is hard to do. So you shoot for something as close as you can get. That means you work your tail off on your fuel delivery device to get as close as possible.
Good luck

[Ron Golden]

Hud,
7* holds true at all velocities.

Bubba,
3x2 medium cfm Rochester on a manifold I built. I'd love to have some side draft carbs to experiment with but that will have to be a future project.....when I find the carbs.

CrkInsp,
We use a dental mold making powder that you mix with water. Dentist's use it to make quick molds of teeth. It sets up quickly and is easy to remove from the port. However, it will dry out and shrink in a few days so it isn't a permanent mold. The rubber you mentioned make a permanent mold.

Ron

[CrkInsp]

Ron
Can You mix a little glycerin with it to slow the shrink. Then seal it with a coat of something. Just a thought.

[Hudsonator]

I've been reading that diyporting.com site on and off all day as I could. Interesting stuff on my level.

I'm assuming you fellas are talking about solid molds for casting rather than the hollow ones made by silicone? Where do you find the casting rubber, any particular type?

Hud

[CrkInsp]

I don't have the product name in front of me but will get it tomorrow.

You make a solid plug from a good (?) port, then use that to cast a matching port in a block of plaster. Remove the plug from the plaster. You them have a port replaca to do your expermentation on. Its a lots easier to work with than a metal piece. Haven't ruined a head yet doing it this way, but have lost some hair.

What surface finish are you leaving on your port floors?

[Hudsonator]

What surface finish are you leaving on your port floors?

Was that question for me, or Ron?

If me, 80 grit "tooled" finish.

I will say one thing, that DIY site answered my .435" lift question, as I just wasn't seeing anything over that, with diminishing returns over .400". According to their thread sailing analysis, .300 is when the air flow starts to roll upward over the edge of the valve rather than paralell with the head. Right there might be the 290 hp wall. I have no idea how that applies to the Hudson, I'm too work-bound (with things other than this) at present to mess with it.

Actually, that one tidbit answers alot of questions I've had with different flatheads.

Oh well, fodder for thought I suppose.

Hud

[348chevy]

Early Chevrolet and GMC ports are not any better. You have two siamezed ports and two single ports. There is a wall at the end of the port where it has to make a 90 degree bend. I think that by raiseing the port floor and getting the air to start an upward movement towards the valve would help flow in the higher lift areas. It seems that is crazy to do that is what Mike KIrby has been doing with his 292 sixes. It is called lump port design and you direct the flow of the port by adding a lump in the port to enhance the flow towards the valve instead of towards the flat wall at the end of the port. I might try something this winter when it is cold out.:cool:Roy

[Hudsonator]

The lump port is for real. I think you can actually buy "weld in" and/or "bolt in" lumps from Kirby for the 250/292 head.

Hud

[CrkInsp]

OK, here is the info on the product. It comes from Chicago Latex and Permaflex Mould Co. It goes by the name of Blue-Sil. Sorry, I don't have any idea on the current price.

[Hudsonator]

How close are we to seeing the numbers Ron?

I'm anxious.

Hud

[Ron Golden]

Hud,

The engine is on the dyno cart and final hook-up is being completed. I have a 540 BB Chevy to dyno this weekend, then the GMC goes on next week. I'm not crazy about the headers (partners wanted a certain look) But another header can come later.

Ron

[Drewfus]

The engine is on the dyno cart and final hook-up is being completed, the GMC goes on next week.


top stuff...

ok, my 'non-educated' pure 2c guess....

295-305hp @ 5200 rpm
415-420ft/lbs @2200 rpm

I do hope you get more, but even still, that's a pretty big number for a HA/GR

Cheers,

Drewfus

[Ron Golden]

Drewfus,

I'd be tickled to death with 400+ lb/ft of torque. The rpm drop from second to third will be from 5500 to ~3000. With that much rpm drop I need a lot of "grunt" thru the mid rpm range. I worked all day today at getting it on the dyno... maybe this weekend.

My guess:
320 HP @ 5700
400 TQ @ 4300

Hell, it may only make half that....then you'll hear me cry.

Ron

[Hudsonator]

News?
Results?
First firing?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Ron Golden]

Hud,

I'm sure your aware of the trials and tribulations of building unusual engines. Well, I've been "trialed and tribulated" to death trying to get this beast on the dyno. The carb kits finally came today (they were suppose to be here last Thursday). The external oil lines to the rocker arms and the distributor/cam gears had to be made ...after I found the special fittings. Bottom line....I'm running behind schedule, as usual, and the 540 BBC is about ready to dyno and takes priority over the Jimmy.

If I can get the 540 out of the way this week I'll put the Jimmy on and spend the weekend playing with it.

Ron

[Hudsonator]

HA!

I'm a couple of years behind.

Just prodding you along, for my own selfish inspiration.

Hoping good news when the time comes.

[nexxussian]

Good luck Mr. Ron, hopes of 300+.

[Ron Golden]

Thanks for the good thoughts guys. And if you would, please sacrafice a squirt of gasoline or a dribble of oil to the Horsepower God. Maybe HE will be kind to me with a few extra horsepower...or SHE (as the case may be) will kick me between the legs, and laugh, while she questions; "what the hell makes you think you can make this beast run"?

More news at 11.

Ron

[Drewfus]

More news at 11.


is it 11 yet?:rolleyes::D curiousity is killing this cat....

[Ron Golden]

Drewfus,

Not on the dyno yet. I finished the carbs this weekend and I'm trying to find Brad Penn Break-in oil, hopefully to keep the cam from going flat. I've removed the inner valve springs to reduce the load on the cam/lifter interface during break-in.

If I can get the oil I'll fire it and break it in tomorrow. I should have some news this time tomorrow night.

Ron

[nexxussian]

Good luck finding that local, IIRC there's a Hamb Aliance Vendor that carries that, but I don't remember where they are :(.

I'm waiting with baited breath (mmmm smoked oysters :rolleyes:).

[Ron Golden]

Nex,

I had the hardest time finding a local distributor for the Brad Penn break-in oil. Then they had to have a case shipped in from Wichita and I can't get it until Thursday morning. At the rate I'm going the engine will be rusted solid before I can light a fire in it.

I feel the wait for the oil is necessary since I'm running a flat tappet cam and I don't want to take a chance on it going flat. I've been reading online, and talked to several cam mfg'ers and oil company engineering dept's about the flat tappet cam problems. I finally decided on the Brad Penn break-in, and Red Line synthetic 10W-30 after it's broken in. I hope I've made the right choices.

The engine WILL be dynoed this weekend if I have to put cooking oil in it.

Ron

[64 DODGE 440]

I'm waiting with baited breath (mmmm smoked oysters :rolleyes:).

Always thought "baited breath" meant you had been eating sushi.:D

[nexxussian]

Has anyone tried (or have any data on) the 'direct lube flat tappet solids (I think they're Isky parts) with the microscopic oil hole in the center of the friction surface of the tappet (laser drilled IIRC).

I was just thinking that should help the scuffing situation (preventing it that is). But I have been thinking of having the next flat tappet cam I order not only nitrided but parkerized, extra up front, but not if you only have to buy it once (yeah I could have it hard faced, but I'd rather go roller by that point, and would likely cost about the same).

Or am I way off base?

[Hudsonator]

The weekend rapidly approacheth!

How are we looking? Numbers by Monday?

[CrkInsp]

fwit
I have used GM's EOS in new engines and had no problems. Also used it at cam changes with good luck. Yes, they changed the part # ,but it's still there.

[Ron Golden]

Ahh.... the surprises when you build these old engines. Got the engine on the dyno, all hooked-up, hit the starter and only got a grunt. Dead battery???

No, all the damn cylinders were full of water and the engine was hydro locked. Kevin broke thru into the water jacket on one intake port when he was porting the head and forgot to tell me. Most likely he told me and I forgot. I pulled the head and we repaired the hole and it will be pressure tested and back on the dyno tomorrow.

At this point I'm almost scared to start the damn thing. This engine has been a pain in the ass from the get-go. It will either make good power or blow up on the dyno.

A stock 216 Dodge or a 235 Chevy looks real good after today.

Ron (I guess that's part of hot rodding)

[Ron Golden]

Nex,

I think the direct lube solids are a great idea. I'd still do a controled break-in by reducing the spring pressure with weaker springs, lower ratio rocker arms, break-in oil (Brad Penn or Joe Gibbs) nitride, etc. Hindsight tells me I could have gone to a roller cam for about the same $$$ I have in my flat tappet. But, my momma never bragged on me being her brightest child.

Ron

See you all at Mokan this month.

[GMC BUBBA]

Guys I am not in the engine business but have built 5-6 engines over the last year or so ( including 3 GMCs) and have never had a camshaft failure.

I use the seal power break in lube and some sticky (black) spray lube i picked up at a bearing place. I think sometimes we worry too much over this issue....

Get er done Ron we are dying to know. I have my engine out for a seal problem and will be running it on the dyno as well, we can compare numbers etc. My 322 came out of a pulling tractor and is kinda a unknown soldier..

[64 DODGE 440]

A stock 216 Dodge or a 235 Chevy looks real good after today.

Ron (I guess that's part of hot rodding)

Dont short change the MOPAR, that flathead Dodge is 218.:D

[Hudsonator]

A stock 216 Dodge or a 235 Chevy looks real good after today.

Ron (I guess that's part of hot rodding)

There is something to be said about simplicity. Particularly with engines. Sometimes its more fun to be hammering a simple, tough engine than worrying constantly over what you know is pushed to the edge.

We're still on the edge of our seats though, horsepower hungry lot that we are.

Hud

[Old6rodder]

Dont short change the MOPAR, that flathead Dodge is 218.:D

........ depends on just how much rust is in there. :eek:

[64 DODGE 440]

........ depends on just how much rust is in there. :eek:

No rust inside.......just cobwebs.:D

[Ron Golden]

Well I fired the Jimmy this afternoon and broke it in for 30 minutes. It sounds good and the exhaust temps were within 50 degrees so my intake manifold must be pretty good. I'm going to let it cool off then retorque the head, install the inner valve springs and hook up the end carbs. Then it's dyno time.

I modified the Rochesters to use Holley jets and I removed the power valves so I'll have to go slow on the dyno testing to determine where the jetting needs to be. Does anyone know the max fuel pressure the Rochester 2 Jet carbs can take? I can work it out on the dyno but if I can get in the ball park first it will save some time.

It cackles pretty good when the rpm gets below 1500. Now I want to hear what it sounds like at the other end of the rpm range.

Ron

[AHotRod]

Ron,
I would suggest that you hold fuel pressure to 4.5 PSI on those carbs.

[CrkInsp]

4.5 psi is good

[Ron Golden]

Thanks for the info guys.

Ron

[Hudsonator]

Offerings to the Gods of speed have been made all weekend in your behalf, Ron.

results?

[Ron Golden]

Hud,

The Gods of Speed smiled on me finally:

339 HP @ 5400
346 TQ @ 4600

I may be able to tweak a little more power out of it by playing with the timing and jetting some more. I ran out of time today.

Comparable HP & TQ to a good 350 SB Chevy street engine.

I'm pleased. Thank's to all of you for the offerings.

Ron

[Drewfus]

wow....that's still one cranky sucker.....especially if wrapped in a light HA/GR......

Congrats, that looks like it's going to be a fun ride....certainly lifting the bar.

Cheers,

Drewfus:)

[2b-banjo]

2 flatheads tied together won't do that!!!

[mudflap261]

Hud,

The Gods of Speed smiled on me finally:

339 HP @ 5400
346 TQ @ 4600

I may be able to tweak a little more power out of it by playing with the timing and jetting some more. I ran out of time today.

Comparable HP & TQ to a good 350 SB Chevy street engine.

I'm pleased. Thank's to all of you for the offerings.

RonThats great RON it should light those 6 inch tires right up
the cheese just got a little more binding

[nexxussian]

Yay :D.

Course I just yesterday saw a Jimmy in a streamliner with mechanical injection and a Mag, but that would be cheating in HAGR. ;)

[Old6rodder]

Damn, I'm glad I'm not your tires. :eek:

Excellent. :cool:

[Ron Golden]

Thanks guys! After all the "one step forward then 3 steps back" on this engine it was rewarding to have it bark a little but not bite me in the ass and spit parts at me. Hell, even my roller rockers held their lash after 14 pulls on the pump.

Banjo, I was hoping for 350 HP so it WOULD equal 2 good flathead Fords. I still think the flathead is the best looking engine ever made, followed closely by the Offy. I built the Jimmy because I've wanted to build a nice inline 4 or 6 for 20 years or more and this was the perfect opportunity (and excuse) to do it.

We'll have the car at Mokan this weekend for "show & tell". My partners want to bring it down even though it isn't ready to race. Stop by and say "hello"

Ron

[GMC BUBBA]

Hud,

The Gods of Speed smiled on me finally:

339 HP @ 5400
346 TQ @ 4600

I may be able to tweak a little more power out of it by playing with the timing and jetting some more. I ran out of time today.

Comparable HP & TQ to a good 350 SB Chevy street engine.

I'm pleased. Thank's to all of you for the offerings.

Ron

Good numbers Ron, hopefully my ha/gr gmc engine will come close to that but i doubt it for sure.
Our Bonneville flathead made 181 last year and our newest flathead is almost ready for the dyno and we are hoping for 210-220 on that engine.
The guy down the street just pulled 300 hp with a blown flathead.

[64 DODGE 440]

Hud,

The Gods of Speed smiled on me finally:

339 HP @ 5400
346 TQ @ 4600

I may be able to tweak a little more power out of it by playing with the timing and jetting some more. I ran out of time today.

Comparable HP & TQ to a good 350 SB Chevy street engine.

I'm pleased. Thank's to all of you for the offerings.

Ron

:eek: That thing should be good for high gear only, smoke 'em through the lights passes.:D

I'm hoping for about 1/3 that with my 218 flattie.

[Hudsonator]

The Gods of Speed smiled on me finally:

339 HP @ 5400
346 TQ @ 4600



OUTSTANDING!!!!!

And a befitting congratulations.

Now if my own forutunes would just improve enough to get into the game.

Hud

[Ron Golden]

I did a little more "tweaking" today and got it to 347 HP @ 5500 but got tired of screwing with it and pulled it off the dyno and took it to my partners house so he could paint it. I know I'm over carburated so I'll build three of the smaller Rochesters this winter.

I'm looking forward to meeting you guys this weekend at MoKan. Then I'll be able to put faces with the names. Just look for the good looking old guy.

Ron

[348chevy]

To put this into perspective, I raced a Scotty Fenn chassis slingshot dragster with a 301 Chev in 1960. It had a LaSalle trans, 6 97's and a Howard cam. I figure it made maybe 300 to 310 HP and I was in the 10's and 130+ mph running on 100 octane Chevron gas. So with 347 HP on tap that HA/GR should be a real handful with 6 inch bias ply tires. Have you seen picture of Wild Willy Borsch in the Winged Express.:eek:Roy

[ThingyM]

Ron.. I have a set of 31X14 Goodyears I'll let you use...

[Rand Man]

I saw three or four blown altereds loose control at the Denton, TX 1/8th mile track last weekend. They were running big slicks but were just over-powered for the chassis, track and or driver. Tracks expect that kind of action in those kind of cars, so it wasn't a big deal.

The first time one of these home-made, non-certified, skinny, street-tired things gets sideways at half track, were all gonna get banned. Please put your bullet in a gun that can handle it.

[ThingyM]

Thank you Randy..JMO2

[mudflap261]

I saw three or four blown altereds loose control at the Denton, TX 1/8th mile track last weekend. They were running big slicks but were just over-powered for the chassis, track and or driver. Tracks expect that kind of action in those kind of cars, so it wasn't a big deal.

The first time one of these home-made, non-certified, skinny, street-tired things gets sideways at half track, were all gonna get banned. Please put your bullet in a gun that can handle it.THE RED BARON ran a11/58 113 mph with a 1.70 60 ft the other night it ALLEGEDLY HAS 368 HP the runs were made on 6 inch cokers and were downthe middle of the track .altough the the car is not certified it was built buy a fabricator with with many years experience in commercial /aircraft and street rod /dirt car work. In my opinon it is our place to montior the new cars being built , if we see something wrong we should call their attention to it.

[bobw]

You don't need a certified chassis unless you go quicker than 9.99 sec. You are supposed to have a roll cage that meets the criteria established in the NHRA rulebook for FED or Altered, slower than 9.99. If someone slaps the wall or tips over in a car with a non-conforming roll cage, then some stuff could hit the fan. The builders & drivers of these cars are a very experienced bunch and I doubt they wll take unnecessary chances.
If I build an HA/GR, it will have a cage that meets NHRA requirements. I'll try to hide it as best as I can to keep the old look. But, in order to run where I live, I have no choice. The car will closely resemble the HA/GR's in Oz, which I believe are very close to meeting NHRA requirements.

[lindross]

THE RED BARON ran a11/58 113 mph with a 1.70 60 ft the other night it ALLEGEDLY HAS 368 HP the runs were made on 6 inch cokers and were downthe middle of the track .altough the the car is not certified it was built buy a fabricator with with many years experience in commercial /aircraft and street rod /dirt car work. In my opinon it is our place to montior the new cars being built , if we see something wrong we should call their attention to it.

Yup, the Red Barron car is a superb car but it's not an HA/GR car. Built to look like one, but it's running high dollar modern equipment and an auto trans too.

[Godzilla]

Ron,
What were you thinking? You know you are going to kill yourself with all that power. Zilla.

[CrkInsp]

How soon we forget. The Red Baron was built just like, and by the same person that built the car that won the FIRST HA/GR race at Mokan. It even has a legal transmission by the original rules as written at the formation of this class and under which the races were conducted.

There are only two ways to build any car these days.
1. Build it your self ( if you can do your own fab work).
2. Buy it and bolt it ( if plan 1. is not an option).

Just because someone goes to plan 2. does not make him any better or worse than the person who went with plan 1. Please discribe - modern, high dollar equipment.
I haven't seen but a single car that doesn't have that look alike look. How many ways can they be built.

The owner of the car is one nice person who has done a lot for local racing in our series.

[Ron Golden]

I read these comments several times to try to determine the thinking behind what was written.

348chevy: I agree with your comments and realize just how fast this car COULD be. However I'll be the crew chief and keep it under control. Wild Willy's style scares the hell out of me.

Rand Man: Godzilla and I have both suggested, pleaded, almost begged to get the bias tire rule changed to a speed rated radial for safety reasons. I don't think the bias tires are safe even at 100 mph. I deleted the rest of my comments to you...I don't think you would have liked what I had to say.

Mudflap: Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Red Baron a flathead Ford? Ask 348chevy just how much power they make. He raced them in NHRA dragsters and they certainly don't make 368 HP. More like 168.

bobw: Amen

Time and again I've tried to explain why I built this engine and light weight chassis.....so I won't go into that again. I'm no damn fool and have NO plans on running 130 + MPH, eventho it should do that. Nor will I allow the car to be driven that fast. I personally don't feel their safe at 100 MPH. Hell, if it makes everyone happy we won't even race against the other HA/GR cars. We'll just run it locally and have fun.

Never have I told any of you how to build your cars. If someone wants to build a triple engine car capable of 200 MPH...I'd say go for it. I don't care what you build or your reasons for building it. THAT'S NONE OF MY BUSINESS. I've offered help to any and all, and I'll help you go faster than our car will go if thats what you want. I'll tell you everything I put in this engine if you want to know. I don't care.

I think the best thing I can do is forget this forum and play in another sandbox.

Ron

[CrkInsp]

Ron: The Red Baron is an oversized 302 GMC.
The Flat Head your thinking of is the Okie Outlaw #OO, it's run in the high 11's. The last local race (8-8-08) it ran a 12.024 in BAD air @ 109.86.

[GMC BUBBA]

I think the best thing I can do is forget this forum and play in another sandbox.

Ron[/quote]


Ron,

Wrong answer ! You allowing a few the get your blood pressure up!
Stay with the plan and get er down the track.

Bubba

[348chevy]

I agree with Bubba that you need to race the car. I think that the rules are there so the playing field can be as level as possible. This is going to be long. When I raced Super Stock in 1958 and 1959 the rules were that all things had to be factory except headers. You had to run the size tire that the factory put on the car. Don Nicholson was a friend of mine and he dyno tuned my car a couple of times. The cars were so equal that on any given day you could win. Don Nicholson told you all his secrets and then raced you on sunday and usually beat you. but all races were won by a 1/4 of a car length or less. HA/GR rules try to make things level. If you take a stock 6 cyl. from the 50's and put it in an HA/GR don't expect to turn any fast times or win if anyone shows up with a modified. I have seen Ron Goldens engine in pieces and there is nothing magic there. Some grinding done on the ports Hudson rods, not aluminum rods, stock crank, homemade 3 carb manifold, stock distributor and a remote oil filter. That's it. Nothing exorbitant and certainly within the rules. Racing is and always has been about competeing ones skills against another whether it is driving skills or engine skills. I got into this after the rule change about automatic transmissions so I don't know the history there. I do know that we want to play and play safe because it is supposed to be fun. When I raced 2B 5 times he beat me 4 but I won once and that was great to me. Let us see Ron run his car and save our judgements until we see how it runs. Remember that is on the dyno and dynos don't go down the track.:)Roy

[64 DODGE 440]

I think the best thing I can do is forget this forum and play in another sandbox.

Ron[/quote]


Ron,

Wrong answer ! You allowing a few the get your blood pressure up!
Stay with the plan and get er down the track.

Bubba[/quote]

I'm with you on that Bubba. We all have opinions.......some more than others, but don't anyone let that influence your build or desire to run what you build.

Everyone has a different idea of what they want and that is what makes this class work and at the same time such a great challenge. Trying to get the best you can out of the least, or trying to take the bet of everything and make it connect and run straight and quick.

Lets keep the individuality in the class and remember it's supposed to be a run what ya built and have fun class. Personally, I'd love to see a few cars that could run high gear only and smoke the tires through the lights running along side of the lower powered cars banging gears and going for it.:cool:

[recycler]

Ron, if it's built within the rules, bring it, run it and run it hard. THAT'S ALL i HAVE TO SAY.
Brad

[Ron Golden]

Thanks to all of you for the support, and understanding. I'm not trying to show-off, I'm just happy with the results of my engine build and wanted to share with the group.

I'm not a painter, an artist that can do murals on the car, or a great fabricator. What I am is a gearhead that tunes ignition and carb systems and a pretty good engine builder. If I was an artist I'd be showing you my art work instead of my dyno results.

Ron

[64 DODGE 440]

As long as you are having fun and running what ya brung it's cool. :cool:

[CrkInsp]

Ron, Your right, it's about fun. We here in Tulsa run our races on the "Big Dog- Porch Dog" program. Everbody runs every round. None of this one lose and you go on the trailer stuff. You win you stay in the Big Dogs, you loose you go to the Porch Dogs and still keep running until the winner of each class (group or what ever) is determind by wins.

We would like you, or any HA/GR, to come to Tulsa and run WITH us. If you need "references" on us talk to 2B-Bob, or 348chevy-Roy. They have run with us.

Our next race will be Sept 12.

[Old6rodder]

Ditt-f'ing-o!

Never let anything dissuade you for any reason but reason itself. And never be the one to run, let the other fellow do that. It's easy enough, just have the faith of your convictions.

Ron, I sure would enjoy seeing that thing torturing the asphalt one day. :cool:

[ThingyM]

Ron.. I kind of Ditto'd Randmans comment, Because I to am afraid of what might happen if one of these tires lets loose at a 110 plus speed..But as I was told once. "Thats all they had back then.So thats what we use"..But also back in the 50s (I was there) the engines did not produce the HP/TQ like we get out of engines today..My little altered runs in the early 8s @ over 150..Hell that is what the Nitro burners were turning then...My only concern is the safety factor. nothing else...So put that puppy together and lets see what it'll do..Maybe someday I'll be able to race you with my 198cu in/ 120hp screaming chev 6...lol..Dick (aka) ThingyM

[Godzilla]

It seems like it always comes back to the tire. It has got to be easier to run a safer tire than to find a way to limit the output of the engines that can, and have been built. I dunno...seems like the fix to this is a no brainer...maybe not.

If I had to have a concern it would be for one of these old manual transmissions to explode and lock up the rear tires. I had that happen on a 55 chevy I was driving in 66 and I turned more donuts than the corner donut shop makes in a day. Ended up in the ditch still right side up.

The other issue is the safety of the driver. I had my car finished and Bob H. told me that to run the SDRA deal I would have to install a 1/8" steel floor that ran from the firewall to the tailshaft of the tranny. I was already running a kevlar shield and a trans blanket and a .095 steel floor. I had to blow the car apart to install it, at a cost of $750 (steel and labor).

Bottom line...you racers need to keep thinking safety and make clear what needs to be what for the new guys who are still building cars. I have not tried to take any sides on any issues...just wanted to express my opinion. Good luck to all of you. Zilla.

[bob hindman]

Gadzillla i never said 1/4 steel ...isaid it had tobe 1/8 steel...

Hiney...

[Godzilla]

Yikes...thanks Bob...corrected my error... .125 is right, I had .095. My kevlar shield was 1/4" thick.

[348chevy]

You know we keep bad mouthing the bias ply tire as being unsafe. The radial is no more speed safe than a bias ply unless it's speed rating is improved. They have went 300 mph on bias ply tires and raced Indy for years on bias plys. The bias ply tire was built on a bias for strength and the radial has the advantage of keeping the tread on the road at high side loads. You guys go out and look at you Cokers and they will have the same speed rating and load rating as your radials on your car. The radial would give us a little better traction because of a better footprint but I feel just as safe on those as I would a radial. There were an awful lot of drags won and lost on Bruce recap bias ply slicks. We don't have the heat build up in our racing that might cause a tire failure. :)Roy

[Rand Man]

I want to apologias. I have a very blunt and direct manner of speaking and writing. Most all the time, away from work, what I want to say comes out wrong. I've spent a lot of my working life giving orders, in an undiplomatic way; "Do it like this, with these materials, at this cost, in this time frame". I have no authority on this website or in any ones personal life. I don't speak for my team, just my own loud mouth.

My only excuse is that I've been working sixty hour weeks to keep my head above water lately. I have bills to pay and dependents to feed. I come home and the house is a mess. I start to feel like I'm working for nothing and some people want to take away what little I have. I lash out.

Ron has proven himself to be a great engine builder. That's what should have been said in this forum, in this tread. With all the talk of smoking the tires, I had a vision of stabbing 347 HP, at 1000 ft, on a 6" tire. There is a lot of stickum on the starting line nowadays, but that has been pretty much worn off towards the end of the track. I saw a car hit the wall, and that's what I wrote. Instead of looking like an advocate for safety, I add something harsh and stupid. I look like an asshole.

I'll be driving tomorrow and I'll be the first to admit, I'm not the greatest. I plan to have fun and try and relax. My future in HA/GR? Right now, sit back, shut up and let it play out. My initial plan, when this thing started, was to keep the class fun, slow and therefore safe. If it must go faster, The best thing I can do is to get into safety. I plan to build a new chassis that is totally NHRA legal, for a lot faster than I plan to go. Will I get it done before next season? It depends on if I have to keep on working sixty hour weeks.

[gas pumper]

You know we keep bad mouthing the bias ply tire as being unsafe. The radial is no more speed safe than a bias ply unless it's speed rating is improved. They have went 300 mph on bias ply tires and raced Indy for years on bias plys. The bias ply tire was built on a bias for strength and the radial has the advantage of keeping the tread on the road at high side loads. You guys go out and look at you Cokers and they will have the same speed rating and load rating as your radials on your car. The radial would give us a little better traction because of a better footprint but I feel just as safe on those as I would a radial. There were an awful lot of drags won and lost on Bruce recap bias ply slicks. We don't have the heat build up in our racing that might cause a tire failure. :)Roy

To keep off the engine topic and throw my 2 c. into the tire issue.:)

I got this T roadster<<<over there<<<, 600x16 on the back
Firestone Champs. I'm kinda concerned driving on the hiway at over 90 for more than a few miles cause the tires get hot. 70 for hours is OK but over 90 they start to get sticky hot.
But I've been down the dragstrip with her. runs 13.5 @ 102. Not spectacular, but I did this without out tuning or changing anything but tire pressure. it's a 283 and a stick, 4.11 banjo open. Did 6 runs back-to-back at a T&T day.

And the point is the tires were not an issue. The car went perfect straight, no steering at all. no shaking or vibrating, just perfect and not very exciting. Did let the air down to 20 in the rears for a little more grip at launch. And launch had to be let the clutch out at idle then nail it

This is 1740 lbs + me @220=1960 lbs.
60 ft 2.16.

Frank

[Ron Golden]

Randy,

I'm pretty sure we have a similar problem. I'm not very diplomatic and sound like a wise-ass, know-it-all sometimes. Actually, I'm not that way at all....I just think my presentation skills need some serious polishing. I mean well, I just don't express myself well.

Your absolutely right about 347 HP being dangerous in one of these cars on a 6" tire. That's why I've talked to my partners and made it clear that I have control of the throttle opening (throttle stop already on the car). To be truthful speed scares the hell out of me, but I like to build engines for others to go fast.

The fact that you have strong feelings for this sport, and HA/GR cars, shows that your anything but an asshole. Outspoken for the overall good of the sport...but not an asshole.

Please continue to remind all of us just how dangerous these cars can be, and maybe keep someone from being a damn fool and trying to use 347 (or more) HP to impress everyone. Horsepower is great. Horsepower and stupidity is dangerous.

Ron

[jeff/21]

most racing tires, slicks, dirt and pavement tires are bias belt and are safe if not they would have been banned a long time ago.
back in the 70's I ran a c/sm at the end of the day the winner of each eliminator modified, super stock and stock would run each other for street eliminator, most of the time I would end up chasing my friend in a w/s pinto sw I didn't have a chance the best I could do was to run the index the W/Stock would run .40 under at will.The spectators didn't like it but I had fun.

[64 DODGE 440]

I plan to build a new chassis that is totally NHRA legal, for a lot faster than I plan to go.

This may save a lot of problems with the N(o)H(ot)R(ods)A(llowed) bunch, we can all have "cookie cutter" cars that look like AA/FA chassis without bodies, weigh 2000 pounds or more and run in the high 12s. Might as well build a door slammer with a crate engine and spec tires.

Just my biased feelings but it seems like we might as well bury the class and start up a "Vintage Rail" class like the modern FEDs and start throwing the big bucks at the cars so we can run at all the reunion type meets, look the same and show the crowds, (who never saw this type of car run) "what it was like back then", (with equipment that didn't exist).:rolleyes:

Sorry to be a painintheass but that's not what we are building for and I think that there are a lot of other builders out there who feel the same way. (end of rant:cool:)

[Godzilla]

For some time now I have enjoyed stopping by and reading about the cars that are being built here. I have always noticed that the guys really seem to be enjoying the build...excited to bring their creation to life. There is anything but a cookie cutter theme...and every creation more like a work of art.

If you don't like to have the engine in the front...put it in the rear. You don't like running one engine...put in as many as you like. If your goal is being true to a picture that you have in your mind of cars from the days of yor...build it with parts that are not newer than from that era...or if you want to high-tech it then spend a million and have one carved out of solid billet. It is all here...that's what makes this whole thing so appealing.

While a considerable part of this deal is the machine...a lot of it is you guys...that sweat and built the little bits that it takes to make the car come to life. The hours spent to craft a manifold...or disassemble an old part and rebiuld it. You can all be very proud of what you have brought to life.

I don't believe that anyone will intentionally build a car to hurt them. But, you can not control every variable...even brand new parts fail and accidents happen. Just make sure you have rules that will provide the drivers and spectators with the best chances of having a safe day at the track. The key to being safe is to constantly check your equipment and never take the speed for granted. Everything else usually takes care of itself. Have fun and race safe...some words from an fan. Zilla.

[64 DODGE 440]

I agree zilla, I have nothing against building and racing safe. I do find it absurd that you can run a quicker doorslammer without a cage and they want a funny car/top fuel cage in ours because they don't have doors or rear suspension. There does need to be a bit of concession to the fact our cars are in a rather different range of speed and et.

[GlassThamesDoug]

I agree....................I finally built a hot rod with welding hwlp from some friends. Other than that, I drew up every bracket, and the rest was from Speedway. Gets more attention than all my Camaros, Chevelles, Novas ever did. The fun does not end when you do it yourself, there was a saying in Two Lane Blacktop, that GTO made.

[Godzilla]

I really feel like I over built my car for safety sake. The only concern I ever had was with an engine fire. Most of the cars I have watched built here are well thought out. The cars that have been built with all original parts are pretty much self-regulated. The cars that have been built to press the boundry have had safety concerns pretty well addressed.

So...I applaud all the builders for their effort and would like to encourage anyone who is thinking about building a car to not be put off by the little disputes that they might read here. There is so much passion involved with these cars that it sometimes get a little outside the white lines...but it is all good...and will only make things better and safer.

It is a great class and is one of the best venues around for having a million dollars worth of fun on the cheap. On the side.......Zilla.

[Old6rodder]

Lesseenow .........

Folks who are so into their hobby that they'll make it from scratch rather than do without when it comes to that.
Who'll argue a point nearly to knuckles, then turn around and do it yet another way altogether.
Who have more in common with their enemies than they do with their family & friends.

Sound like anyone we might know? Like maybe all of us? :p

Gentlemen, I have three primary hobbies (old racing cars, self built Rose Parade floats and Sn3 model trains) and each of'em is practiced at that level of passion. You've seen nothing 'til you've seen two idiots nose to nose over just exactly when and in which shop a particular broken rivet on a particular water tender was repaired (and this is no exageration). :rolleyes:
I've come to the conclusion that this's a result of my own personality rather than "the fates". It's no accident that we choose the pursuits we choose, and I believe it's far more the enjoyment of similarly empassioned folks than we care sometimes to admit. Perhaps we even enjoy the frustration itself to a small extent, certainly does get the ol' blood going. :D

Randy, et al, I'd far rather what we have here than the typically social over polite obsequiance that leads to no progress. I mean shit, we RACE for Christ's sake, not embroider. Unimpassioned folks just don't do this.

OK, enough. I'm getting misty and just had an urge to hug a bunny. Just keep being yourselves, gentlemen.

[Dolmetsch]

Ron your tech is excellant. Picking cam lift with a flowbench. For years I wondered if anyone else did. Knowing you cant lift faster then the piston moves out of the way and realizing too much lift can kill an otherwise excellant port s flow. etc etc. Solid stuff.
Made my own flowbench as well. Changed a lot of how i did things about 18 years ago because the bench doeesnt care what you think you need. It is a heartless master of showing you what works and maybe more importantly what doesnt. .
Maybe a simple pratical flowbench build on HAMB would help others. Anyway. keep up the great work
Don

[moparsled]

Ron your tech is excellant. Picking cam lift with a flowbench. For years I wondered if anyone else did. Knowing you cant lift faster then the piston moves out of the way and realizing too much lift can kill an otherwise excellant port s flow. etc etc. Solid stuff.
Made my own flowbench as well. Changed a lot of how i did things about 18 years ago because the bench doeesnt care what you think you need. It is a heartless master of showing you what works and maybe more importantly what doesnt. .
Maybe a simple pratical flowbench build on HAMB would help others. Anyway. keep up the great work
Don

This I want to see! I am a year away from flowbench time in school, but it's been on mind a bunch lately. I found a clear resin to cast my parts out of so I can see the flow, now I need to learn the rest of it.

[nexxussian]

This I want to see! I am a year away from flowbench time in school, but it's been on mind a bunch lately. I found a clear resin to cast my parts out of so I can see the flow, now I need to learn the rest of it.


Is that resin commercially available (if so what's it called)?

[moparsled]

Is that resin commercially available (if so what's it called)?

yeah- it's called "mass clear resin". According to the guy I spoke with, it stays clear in thicker section than other resins, and there is something to its low heat building qualities or something too, so it cures better, or clearer, or something. The place I talked to stocks it in 55gallon drums, a quart is under $20, and a gallon is under $50. 5 gallons is $160. The catalyst is like 7 bucks to cure the 5 gallon.

[Ron Golden]

Don,
Thanks. There are different thoughts on valve lift vs port flow. Some want the most/fastest lift possible. I'm not sure that works 100% at all rpm's. Years ago I used a shopvac to pull air through the port while I shot dycum in, to see where the air/fuel mixture would actually go.

I've used dental mold material to make quick molds of ports to get a visual of what the port looks like. It's the stuff the dentist uses to make molds for dentures. Cheak, quick and easy to remove from the port.

Ron

[Dolmetsch]

Dont get discouraged Ron. Critics are a dime a dozen.
Never met a critic though who had actually built something himself. I wonder why that is?
Rules .
I prefer just going to test and tunes. Other than safety rules i decide what my car has.
When rules become too oppressive someone is afraid they are gonna get beat i figure but these cars and even my senior dragster are not about that. They are about fun . Having been a Mopar guy in a chevy town i know all about being the odd man out. Now i no longer care. When they get critical or mouthy i just say "so beat me." Your tech stuff was extremely good. You engine is making huge power proving that you know what you are doing and talking about. Put it in what you want with what you want. If they refuse to let you play then they will have less cars. Hurts them not you. Used to be back in the day a slush box was considered a handicap, not an unfair advantage. What happened?

[64 DODGE 440]

Used to be back in the day a slush box was considered a handicap, not an unfair advantage. What happened?

Seems like people forgot how to shift their own gears.......Hell, ya can't even get a stick in a lot of the new cars, so there are a lot of folks that have never driven a stick.

[Old6rodder]

Stock slush pumps were indeed a liability then, their torque converters actually. They had far more slippage than modern units. That was the biggest single improvement in the race modified units (B&M, Art Carr, etc.) at the time.

It still came to less driver involvement, and thus less driver responsibility for the race even then. The car was made responsible for shifting (and now days for not over-taching, etc, etc, & ad nauseum).

I'm not sure why modern drag racers feel the need to manage even just the pedal and wheel themselves, their computers could certainly do it more reliably and the car'd be lighter without'em (not to mention the facilities to carry'em).

Sorry 'bout that gentlemen, I do go off on the occasional tangent, and usually wind up looking silly doing it of course. :D

.......... and I pray no one from No Hot Rods Allowed picks up on the idea. After all, it would certainly be safer for the "racers".

[nexxussian]

Don't feel silly, the USAF's doing it (getting rid of the MK I eyeball onboard) why shouldn't you think of it in other venues? (no, I'm not saying it should happen but if someone want's to look hard enough, I bet someone already is doing that somewhere).

[64 DODGE 440]

Don't feel silly, the USAF's doing it (getting rid of the MK I eyeball onboard) why shouldn't you think of it in other venues? (no, I'm not saying it should happen but if someone want's to look hard enough, I bet someone already is doing that somewhere).

Hell.......we could all just drag race in some computer game, but that's not why we build these things.:rolleyes:

Then again, I like flying low and slow in our 1946 non electric, hand prop start Aeronca Champ without a radio.:D

[Old6rodder]

WITHOUT A RADIO ????

You sick, perverted FIEND !!!!
Even Willie had a radio ..........

:p :D

[64 DODGE 440]

WITHOUT A RADIO ????

You sick, perverted FIEND !!!!
Even Willie had a radio ..........

:p :D

Never saw a radio that would add lift.:p

[class 'A']

Ron~
Any pics of the 'screamin' Jimmy?

[Ron Golden]

I'll try posting some pictures.

Ron

[Drewfus]

wow....

congrat's sir, thats going to be a blast to drive...

suspect that she's quite a loud bit of gear....

Cheers,

Drewfus

[moparsled]

Damn that's purty

[nexxussian]

Jeeze, that's slick ('n shiney too :D). You do the stiping on the tappet cover yourself?

[64 DODGE 440]

Great looking car, Ron. You have really done a beautiful job!

Love the push bar, planning on one on our car, it really fits the era.

It would be neat to be able to push start the cars like the old days.:cool:

[mudflap261]

mighty mighty pleasing

[Rand Man]

Pretty slick.

[Toymaker]

Nice Job, alot of attention to detail!

[Old6rodder]

Beautiful, truly an ode to the era.

I dig the hell out of your piss can and your starter link.

Query; was notching the plenum for the linkage fore or hind sight? :D

[QQMOON]

Wow Ron thats sure is one CLASS act good on ya

QQ

[CrkInsp]

Ron
If it runs as good as it looks, you've got a winner there.

[Ron Golden]

Thanks for the compliments on the car's looks. I have to give credit where credits due. My partners (Dwight McGowan, Dean Isackson, Kevin Brodrick and Tim McLaughlin) all have special talents and used them when building the car.

The notches were planned as everything on the car was engineered before a single weld was made or a bolt was turned. (I know I'm going to hell for lying but I can't help it)

I think we set both the ET & MPH record for HA/GR cars @ 12.10 @ 120.51 MPH. That and $1.00 might buy me a cup of coffee.

The track was super sticky at KCIR this weekend and the car bogged badly taking off in 2nd gear. Taking off in 1st helped but it wasn't a perfect run since Dwight was granny shifting to keep from breaking the tranny.

Dwight did a great job of driving the car, and running against Roy Merritt and Bob Hindman means you have to be on your toes all the time. Their tough!

We're going to MoKan next Sunday if we can get the car fixed.

Ron

[Drewfus]

I think we set both the ET & MPH record for HA/GR cars @ 12.10 @ 120.51 MPH. That and $1.00 might buy me a cup of coffee.

We're going to MoKan next Sunday if we can get the car fixed.

Ron

:eek::rolleyes::D:):D

120 MPH....wow...and you took off in 1st? very wow..

Congrats,

Drewfus

[class 'A']

NICE!
Now you guys got me thinking!
Can any post some pics of a frame? just getting some ideas.
Mike

[bob hindman]

Talk to me wizzard how bad is the motttter hurt....


Hiney...one that needs all the helpppp....

[Ron Golden]

Bob,

The distributor gear has all the teeth stripped off and it also took the teeth off the cam gear. It would cost more than $700 to replace the cam and lifters and it might happen again. Therefore I'm in the process of building a set-up for driving the oil pump and distributor off the front of the crank. I have the mount almost done and I'm waiting for an oil seal for the oil pump shaft. I'm having to build everything cause a single stage oil pump is $606 and I can't afford that. Besides, isn't that what hot rodding is suppose to be all about!

I won't be able to race at MoKan this coming weekend but I'll be there to watch and give support as needed.

Ron

[bob hindman]

Wizzard do a spell on that damn 120.00 jimmmmmmy....

Hiney the duck killler.

[nexxussian]

OUCH!!

You using one of the late model pumps to do that? I mean the ones on most engines that drive off a couple of flats on the balancer or crank snout? (should be bulletproof that way, and there should be one of those pumps available that would put out more than enough oil). The hard part would be making the cover fit (no small task).

Good luck.

120 Daayyyuummm!

[Ron Golden]

I'm using a modified BB Chrysler oil pump and the original GMC distributor. The pump has a filter mount on it and the pressure can be adjusted externally. Kinda heavy but it should fill the bill.

Ron

[nexxussian]

Good luck with it.

[jeff/21]

any pics of how modified the oil pump

[jeff/21]

sorry I left a word out the sentence should read " any pics of how you modified the oil pump"

[Ron Golden]

Jeff,

I'm about finished with the machining on everything and will take some pictures for anyone wanting to duplicate it. I don't suggest anyone do this unless it's absolutely necessary. I did it only because the cam gear was destroyed along with the distributor gear and it would cost me about
$800 to replace the cam, etc. Being a poor boy, with a Bridgeport mill and a lathe available, I decided to build a better set-up (I hope).

Ron

[buffaloracer]

Ron,
I think you have the spirit of the class down pat. Nice to see people fabricating things instead of going to the catalog. Anxious to see what you come up with.
Pete

[Ron Golden]

Pete,

I don't think I'm as much a racer as I am a fabricator. I like to build things and try to make it different than what's been done before. Sometimes it works out the first time and sometimes it has to be changed. The engine worked out OK, but I'm sure I'll make some more changes this winter and look for more power. 347 HP is Ok but 375, or more, would be better. It's not so much for going faster, just to see if I can improve on what I have.

Hell, I don't even like to drive race cars, I just like to build them.

Ron

[Old6rodder]

"Being a poor boy, with a Bridgeport mill and a lathe available"

I like your notion of a "poor boy", where do I go to pick up my Bridgeport and my lathe? :D

[64 DODGE 440]

"Being a poor boy, with a Bridgeport mill and a lathe available"

I like your notion of a "poor boy", where do I go to pick up my Bridgeport and my lathe? :D

I've got a drill press, band saw and a belt sander.......Poor boys machine shop.:D

[Ron Golden]

Dick,

The Bridgeport and lathe belong to the machine shop where I hang out 5 days a week....... with no pay. I dyno all their engines and help wherever I'm needed, and in return get to use any of their equipment and get my parts at their cost. Keeps me off the street and out of my wife's hair. Besides, I wouldn't have been able to build our car otherwise.

Believe me, I've worn out more hacksaw blades building cars than I like to think about. Maybe that's why my right arm is bigger than my left. Then again, it could be bigger for other reasons.

Ron

[junkrodder]

Very inspiring thread. Thanks

[38FLATTIE]

Bob,

Therefore I'm in the process of building a set-up for driving the oil pump and distributor off the front of the crank. I have the mount almost done and I'm waiting for an oil seal for the oil pump shaft.
Ron

Did you ever finish making the front mount oil pump dizzy?


....and before I get flamed, yes I realize this is an old thread!;)

[nexxussian]

Yeah, he did, sent me pics of it to post for him at one time.

Looks like....

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff268/nexxussian/1234071656.jpg

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff268/nexxussian/1234071654-1.jpg

Hope that helps.

[38FLATTIE]

Thanks Erik!!!

[hawleywood1]

I have the car out here in CA. Were going to run soon. That is Ron Goldens car.

[nexxussian]

I have the car out here in CA. Were going to run soon. That is Ron Goldens car.


Running soon is excellent news. :)

[38FLATTIE]

I have the car out here in CA. Were going to run soon. That is Ron Goldens car.

Cool. Let us know the results!