Technique for replacing bottom of body?

[Flipper]

What is the best method for rebuilding the whole damn bottom of the body? ...the floor, rockers and bottom of the doors have rusted away. .....GONE!

How do you support the body? tall saw horses on the inside (roof)? Any suggestions for squaring everything up? The previous owners "repairs" are getting cut out with the rust.

[choprods]

I recommend this-[worthless info maybe] http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[1]I would have it on the frame of choice.
[2]I would close both doors and Jig up the corresponding door to quarter and door to cowl seams to satisfactory appearance.
[3]Then I would tack the doors shut at frt upper and lower and rear upper and lower.
[4]then I would cut out all remaining shit and semiprecious metals
[5]then do some cross bracing to hold body square
[6] then realign the body over the frame rails to channel if you likeAT THIS TIME
[7] then Id frame it with 3/4" square tubing to the body side for side ACROSS THE FRAME-this will give you a base.
then once that is done you can "skin it in" with sheet metal forming a floor and weld the floor to the body sides as you progress. Remember you arent fucking up a museum peice here- its about all that can be done to re build a peice of shit like this! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
IT'LL WORK THATS ALL THAT MATTERS! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Flipper]

I was thinking along those lines except that I was going to rebuild the verticle body substructures first so that there was something solid to tie into.

The frame that is under it now is getting tossed. I was planning on scratch bulding the frame after the body was fixed (if it can be fixed).

I agree with you, this thing is a rust piece of shit that can't be hurt, only helped.

[choprods]

ALL IN GOOD FUN wit the description Flipper http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif....Its all I would consider building myself!
the prob with building any of it off the frame is just that -it allows for the possibility of gettin it all outa spec....once it is jigged up and tacked into alignment on the frame and taking into cosideration the fitment of doors to body as I desribed THERE IS LITTLE CHANCE YOU CAN GO WRONG FROM THAT POINT.
GOOD LUCK MAN!

[Flipper]

As it is right now, at least one of the center post is welded in the wrong spot (obvious). somebody in the past made straight, square tube rockers. So it is gonna have to be cut apart before the final fix is done.

Maybe square up the body and tack weld reinforcements halfway up the body (measure down from some reference points up high)? Then set it on some I-beams and do the body work?

The bitch about this is that I don't really know how tall the body used to be.

[50dodge4x4]

If I were going to do this one (I do this for a living, BTW) I would:
At the lowest point there is real steel left, you need to build a structure inside the car. With this structure you need to tie all the body pannels on each side together, and locate them into the proper location.

You can use 1/8" x 2" flat (standing vertical so it can follow the curve of the body) along the inside of the body: tack weld it to the cowl at the door post, tack weld it to the front and the rear of the front door, (not the doors themself, but the body structure as close to the doors as possible) tack it to the center door post, tack it to the front and rear edge of the rear door, (again, not the door, but the body structure as close to the doors as possible) tack it to the front edge of the rear door post and tack it to the rear wheel well. Do the same thing on the other side of the car, be sure the flat stock is at the same hight on both sides of the body. Once both sides are tacked, you need to add cross braces. I would use either tubing or angle iron for the cross braces because they need to hold everything in demsion. I would also use two pieces for each cross brace that are at least 12" longer then needed, so you can tack the cross braces on both sides and clamp them togeather in the center, for later fine adjustments. Starting at the front, weld a cross brace to the flat stock on both sides at the same location (front to back). You will need to add a cross brace at least at the front door post, the center post and the rear of the rear door. If it is really bad, you can add a cross brace at the firewall and one at the rear wheel wells. You may add gussets and angle braces, but thay will be more crap to work around.
Once the bracing is in place, your body should be much more solid and much more square. You may now begin the structure repair.
I really would recomend starting with what ever frame you are going to use. Since you are building an all new body and frame, starting with the frame will establish the ride hight, the frame width, and where the body mounts will need to be located, and I believe I heard rumors of wheel base change?. You can also determine how high the roof will set. If you start with the body, you PROBABLY will end up changing something on your new body. Build the frame, mount the drive train, install the gas tank and everything else. then build the floor structure, cowl and firewall, have all the floors in place. Then cut all the floors, wheel wells, and the firewall out of this reinforced body and set it on top of the new floorpan and build what ever you need to hold it in place.
Do you really want me to go into detail on everything you have to do, right now? Gene

[earl schieb]

[ QUOTE ]

The bitch about this is that I don't really know how tall the body used to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I recall, the rockers on mine(yeah, I had one of those too, a 52 170)only showed about a half inch below the bottom of the door skin. From the pics, it looks like your left door is about intact, so there ain't much missing height-wise.

With all due respect Flipper, why are you wasting time working on that thing instead of the tank-powered fire engine? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif I know, it's none of my business--sorry http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[willowbilly3]

As the years go by we need to learn to deal with worse and worse raw materials but I think you would be so much better off spending the money on something more solid to start with.
I fixed up one rusty car once and the problem is the panels rust from the inside too. Even when you do get to fairly solid metal that you can weld to, beyond that it is still rust that just keeps eating away. Now if it was a 32 three window I could see going after it but...

[Flipper]

[ QUOTE ]
As the years go by we need to learn to deal with worse and worse raw materials but I think you would be so much better off spending the money on something more solid to start with.


[/ QUOTE ]

More important than saving this car, is developing my skills. I bought a Henrob torch and need to learn how to use it.

I prefer to learn how to use it on a piece crap $120 car versus screwing up something I really want to keep.

There will be SEVERAL hours of cutting and welding and panel beating involved in saving this one. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[willowbilly3]

I am right with you there. I have dabbled a bit in sheet metal over the years but my current project is a study in making chicken salad from chicken poop too, just to hone/develop my skills. I was looking at it yesterday and I think only a couple small pieces that don't need some sort of surgury. You might as well chop that badboy while you are on the learning curve, maybe section it too. Not kidding

[Paul]

1. dip it in POR15, squirt a bunch of spray foam in the panels, shave it all smooth and cover it with glass mat and cloth.

2. take a similar shape and style american car and hack the bottom third off it and graft it to your car.

3. put it in the front yard as is and plant a tree in it

seriously, can you find dimensions or a complete car to measure?

That is where I would start.

[Swedester]

are you going to use the body when you´re done, or just practice on it?I´ve done this to 2 cars in my life, and I don´t recommend it,but it can be done,and it can be good as new,good luck,and, measure twice,cut once would be the only good advice I could give you.keep us updated on the progress.
/ Vince

[Flipper]

[ QUOTE ]
are you going to use the body when you´re done, or just practice on it?I´ve done this to 2 cars in my life, and I don´t recommend it,but it can be done,and it can be good as new,good luck,and, measure twice,cut once would be the only good advice I could give you.keep us updated on the progress.
/ Vince

[/ QUOTE ]

If the body turns out nice, my dad may finish it as a street / strip street-rod. If it turns out so-so, it will get built up as strictly a drag car.

...not a gasser, but a down low, go real fast, drag car built on a tight budget (350/powerglide/9 in rear).

Has anybody seen a vintage steel door slammer that will pass NHRA tech? I'm looking for ideas on how to tuck a roll cage up tight against the body.

[Morrisman]

What you need to do is mark a centreline front to back, do the same side to side, carefully cut along both the lines, a little at a time.
Then you can fit the whole rotten mess into a dumpster a lot easier than you can with it in one piece http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Only fuckin' with ya http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif My Morris Eight was rotted for the lower 6" all the way round, and I spent over a year building a complete new chassis and running gear for it, all the time trying to pretend that the shitty sheet metal nightmare wasn't going to need fixing one day. Well, I'm pretty much up to the stage where I have to fix it now http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I'm really seriously wishing I had started with a whole lot better condition of car http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Still, it has been good practise and a learning experience I suppose http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[choprods]

All Jokes aside- I can see some potential here.......
I would lean in this direction..while its all fucked up anyways why not take a direction that will end up turning it into a valid peice of hotrodDOM?
I think that welding the back door in solid and shortening the body length[thru the rear door] would end up with a '34 Victoria look.
the body shape and size would also adapt to using a 34 hood top and grille surround as well.
I would probably do a slight angle chop as well -2 rear and three in front.
then I could see this as being a cool looking body style.
If you are careful you can shorten it apropriately to where the roof[after chop] would end uop fitting back as far as length goes].
I did that on a '35 ford flatback that I shortened 4"[did a 3" chop] and it all fit back as good as a stocker!

[Rand Man]

There has been some pretty good advice on this one. I understand your theory about this being a learning project, but you need to step back and think this thing through. What’s wrong with the current chassis? You must start with the foundation and build around that. Your plan is off-track if you plan to do a bunch of work and then build a drag car. Hone your skills building a good chassis. Worry about that old body later.

[Flipper]

The chassis is a 70's chevy pick-up frame that has been shortened (see the $118 Mercedes death rod post). No chance in that staying.

We really want a fast hot rod for the street, but it will have to look really nice for me to build it as a street car. Dad wants to make a fast pass at the Indy hot rod reunion next year.

In general, I am trying to raise my overall fabrication skill level up in preparation for digging into the hot rod firetruck project (see the Ever seen a firetruck smoke the tires? post)

[50dodge4x4]

If the intensions are to build a drag hot rod, you really need to build the chasis first. That way you can build it so everything fits and works. Once the chasis is done you can add the cage and safty equipment. Then all you need to do is hang the body Nascar style, attach the body to the cage. Your frame and cage will provide all the structure you need, and the body is just along for the ride.

Using the cage build, you can mount your roof (or as much of it as you want to use) to the top of the cage. Modify your rear quarters as much as you would like, and attach them to the roof pannel and the cage sides. You can locate your cowl/firewall to the frame at any location you think looks cool. Build in the door posts and hang the doors. Configure the trunk area, add the glass and your ready to make it look as cool as you want. With some careful planning, you can do most of it without disrupting the "aged" paint (or lack there of). You can have your NHRA chassis and the hot rod primer in a safe and functional car that will last for years and still have the opertunity to "hone your skills".

Without that body sitting on a solid foundation, rebuilding the bottom 6" will be a HUGE Challenge. You better have a body jig that you can leave in the same place for quite a while. Listen to some words of experance Grasshopper, build the frame first. Gene

[50dodge4x4]

For those that may already have the frame/ chassis ready for that rusty body:

Presuming you have already braced the body as outlined in my first post, you may remove the doors.

You need to start the rebuilding process at the firewall/ cowl. With most cars, this is the heftiest and most important body mounting location. Cars from the 30s through the 50 usually used two mounts at the firewall per side. Every car design that use a body/frame setup use some type of rubber mounts to attach the body to the frame. Usually there is a horizontal piece of sheet metal that is part of the car body with a 3/8" or 1/2" hole in it with a bolt passing through the hole. Under the "plate" sits a rubber washer (bushing) that can be anywhere from 1/8" thick or up to 2" or 3" thick that the bolt also passes through. Most of the time there is a metal sleeve that is in the center of the rubber between the bolt and the rubber. The sleeve prevents the rubber from squishing out. under the rubber is the frame (or a bracket bolted or welded to the frame) with a hole in it that the bolt and sleeve pass through. Under the frame is another rubber washer (bushing) that fits over the bolt and the sleeve. Under the rubber is a steel washer that buts up against the sleeve and the whole mess is held together with a locknut. The rubber bushings are available from your local GM dealer and through other sorces. Look for pickup cab mounts.

What you are going to have to do if you are using an existing frame is be sure the mounting hole in the frame is not rusted out, you should be able to see the factory edges all around the hole. if not, repair it first. If the holes in the frame are good, you most likely are going to have to build back in the sheet metal. The factory nearly always used two thicknesses of sheet metal that was formed with three sides for vertical support for at least two or three inches high at any body mounts (or the bolt came up from the bottom with a captured nut that may have been welded into a vertical tube). I usually use 1/8" metal for sheet metal replacement at most body mounts for at least the bottom two inches, it solves a lot of messing around. Above that can be done with 20G sheet metal. The original body was probably 18G or even 16G (btw, with metal thickness, the higher the # the thinner the metal) but the thicker sheet metal is much harder to cut with tin snips and form by hand.

The most critical thing you can do is to be sure the cowl/ firewall is square on the chassis. If it's not square nothing else on the body will be either.

Once you have repaired the frame holes, and rebuilt the cowl/firewall, made sure it was square it's time to move on.

The next stop we make is the center post (4 door car) or the back of the door post (2 door car), If you have remains of a floor in your car body yet, cut out the floor between the center post about 6" wide. With the floor gone, you should be able to locate a pair (one on each side) of body mount holes, probably in line with the post. Your car body would have been supported side to side at this location. It is important to reestablish this side to side support. I use 1/8"x 1"x 2" tubing for bodt cross supports. the tubing is about 6" shorter then the total distance from the out side edge of the center post, then I cut the tubing at the edge of the trans tunnel (do not assume the tunnel is in the center of the car, it likely is NOT) I form a 1/8"x 2" flat stock to go over the tunnel and weld it to the ends of the tubing (top and bottom). Locate where the holes need to be for the body mounts. I usually cut the top out of the tube at the body mounts and drill the hole. Then the piece I cut out gets trimmed to fit back into the tubing and an oversized hole drilled through it and a nut welded to it so I can use it as a captured nut plate. I tack it back to the inside of the tube, nut side up. Tie the cross brace into the center post, I often use a short piece of tubing that fits verticaly inside the center post and weld it into the post. With the body mounts in place, place the cross brace under the center post. This is the 2nd most important body location. It needs to be correct, side to side, front to back, and square to the cowl/firewall on both sides. It's OK if the tubing does not match up perfictly, its body measurements that are critical, all of the tubing will be covered up. When everything measures correctly, weld the vertical tubing to the cross tubing.

The next location we move to is the rear door post (4 door car) or the front of the wheel well (2 door car) this is another location that the factory put a cross brace side to side. If there is still floor in your car, cut it out. Use the same proceedure here as we used above.

On most cars of the 20s-50s there was another cross brace running side to side about mid way down the front door, especially on 2 door cars. this brace would have tied into the rocker pannel and will be easier to install after the rockers are dsone.

You need to determine how your cars floors were in relation to the rockers. Some car floors had a step down onto the rocker (most were this way). Some floors slopped down and set right on top of the rockers, but some had the rockers above the floor.

Rockers are next. Contrary to populat belief, the rockers run from the firewall, through the cowl, connect to to the center post and extend to the wheel well. The factory usually used two or three (some times 4) pieces of sheet metal to form a tube or a triangle from the firewall to the rear wheel well. Unfortunatly our beloved 20 & 30 cars have curved rockers, compound curves at that, they curve front to back and top to bottom. to make matters worse, replacement rockers I've seen usually do not have all the pieces to make them complete. I make rockers out of 2"x 2" tubing, they ain't pretty but the do the job. Carefull measurements are a must. The rockers must fit under the doors, but not too far under the doors.

We can start our rockers at the back body mount of the cowl (front door post) The rocker usually fits under the center post cross member and under the wheel well cross member unless the rockere are above the floor level. Depending on how your cowl was formed, the rocker may fit under it too (way to many different versions in this area) It's easier to cut and notch and reweld the rocker tube to conform to the body curvature (front to back) before they are installed. Once the curve meets your desire, install the rockers by welding them to the bottom of the cross bracees (unless the rockers are above the floors) under where the doors would be.

With the rockers welded in place, you need to determine the way the outside edge of the floor will meet the rocker and install the cross brace in the midle of the front door so the floor will set right.

Now you can build your floors. A few tricks, I use fairly small pieces for the floors, usually no larger then 2' x 2'. A rolled bead in the pannels add a lot of ridgity and help stop "oil canning" floors. When a pannel lays on a cross brace, drill holes in the pannel and plug weld the pannels to the cross brace. Be sure all your body bolts are tight before you weld in the first floor pannel. Weld all the seams solid except the ones that attach to the rockers, drill and plug weld those. Start with the tunnel, it will be the biggest pain. Once the tunnel is formed, lay out the entire floor before welding the first piece in number the pannels if you need to.

Once the floor is welded in, it's time to finish up the front door posts, center posts, rear door post and wheel well. Make em purddy. If you braced the body way back in the begining, remove the bracing now. Fix anything that needs fixing on the doors. Hang the doors. By now the body ashould be real solid and the doors should open and close nicely. If not, fix it. The last thing to do is finish the rear quarter pannels. After all this is done, you need to use some seam sealer on any seams and joints (available from NAPA.) The seam sealer prevents dust and water from entering the car body, but you also need to make drain holes so any water that gets into the body can drain out.

Now all you gotta do replace the trunk floor, rear body mounts, and wheel wells. You probably need to repair the fenders too. THEN, weren't you going to chop it??

Ever wonder where those $100,000 car came from? Keep track of your time, multiply it by how much you make per hour at work, and let me know how you did.

When it comes to cars, spent the money to buy the best body you can find, it's cheaper then fixing a rusty one. Gene

[SlowLearner]

WOW Gene!! Why I love the HAMB!
All I can say is, Flipper, I like your funky taste in vehicles and your imagination.
50dodge4x4, those are way generous "sharing" posts. As stand-alones, you'd have a TECH week "Contenda"!
I'm thinking, "Tech-o-matic"! -Keith

[Flipper]

Thanks for the detailed info. Looks like I am going to be building framerails first.

[Rand Man]

Do it they way Gene (50dodge4x4) said. He knows what he's talking about. He did a great job in spelling out the details.

[MIKE-3137]

It can be done, but it'll be a TON of work, But you'll gain valuable experience from it. You got some great advice to get you going. Are patch panels available for this car? This car was nearly as bad, really wasn't even a good parts car, Lower 3 inches was basically MIA, no floor at all,no firewall, cowl and rockers badly rusted, and no body mounts at all remaining. Frame rails rusted almost in half, not to mention a warped roof from the front seat catching fire. Its been a 7 year on an off project but it is now a solid car, and I learned loads about panel replacement, welding and fabrication. In hindsight I should have found a better car, but it was cheap and I was eager. I now have over 700 hours in it by my best guess, but it is nearly ready to paint. Point is if you stay motivated and stick with it you can make something out of it.
Good Luck!! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/my31and37/37-old.jpg

[haring]

Turn it into a (streetable) dirt track racer. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

http://www.thevintageracer.com/smvc/vic_nauman_jr.jpg

[plan9]

right on gene, excellant info!

flipper - anythings possible, perfect learning experience.... just dont quit. see the project through, start to finish. i will almost be doing the same thing on a couple cars.

[praisethelowered]

Gene- wow- nice post.


Know anything about replacing wood substructure with metal?

[50dodge4x4]

Gee thanks guys.

Praise, I have not ever replaced the wood in bodies, but I suspect it would be much like building a skeliton inside a shell. The hardest part would be getting all the curves into the tubing.

The first project I drug home was a real disaster. It was a 35 Dodge 2door flat back sedan. The floors were gone, the body was removed from the frame and the roof was cut off. The rockers had broken and the whole mess was laying in a stone quary for 7 years before I drug it home. See attachment, this was after it was home. BTW the frame that the body is sitting on, in the pic was almost rotted in two just ahead of the rear axle and there is a cross torsion clip tack welded to the cut and spread front frame rails. I built a new frame, floors, the bottom 6" of the body and reattached the roof. The little boy in the picture is my now 22 yo son, he was in about 3rd grade in the pic. Gene

[Flipper]

Can anyone see Gene's picture? I can't.

[nicanor]

I say this is a good example of an excuse to section the body

[Flipper]

Tomorrow we start tearing it appart to find out exactly how bad it is.

Here is the latest photo chop. It seems like subtle looks best on this one. Mild chop, mild slice behind the door, pretty good lowering

[50dodge4x4]

Sorry guys, I'm trying to post a picture from a scaned picture. I've reeddited it, rescanned it and reedited it again. My computer says it's 3x4, hell, the original pic isn't that big. I've posted 3.5x5 before, but it says its too big http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif I don't knowwhats up. Gene

[50dodge4x4]

Try tis pic of my 35 again. Gene

[50dodge4x4]

ALL RIGHT!!!! Now, this picture is the same car, about three years later. in this iic we had been driving it for about 3 weeks, it had already been to the 94 Back to the Fifties. Gene

[50dodge4x4]

This is the last pic I have of the 35. It was taken some where around 97. That white and gray paint was Farm and Fleet enamil. After three years, it had so mant chips and scratches in was looking pretty bad. We painted it flat black with flames and had cop car wheels on it. We put 66,000 miles on the car in 7 years. I sold the car on 9/10/02. It went to Danvenport Iowa, but was on e-bay the next spring, and I have lost track of it since. It was a good car, never let us down, we had a great time with it. Sometimes I wished I still had it. Gene

[redoxide]

Ive just donr this on a 50 chevy pick up ..wouldnt bother doing it again though, would look for a better cab next time..Its a lot of work for satisfaction.. which is a good enough reward for me.. see pics at www.garagescene.co.uk (http://www.garagescene.co.uk) 50 pickup project..