HA/GR Tech

[Ron Golden]

Some of the guys on this forum have requested I start a new thread and answer questions of a technical nature such as best header length and diameter, gear ratio for a certain rpm, etc. Most of the questions can be answered rather easily, however, some answers can become very technical, long winded and confusing.

If your concerned with "choke flow" in your intake system or need to know what the combined taper in your intake runners should be, I'll most likely recommend you do a online search and be prepared to do a lot of research. I'm very willing and happy to help....but I don't have the time to teach in-depth subjects.

After more than 50 years of playing with internal combustion powered vehicles my best advice is keep it simple, make it light weight, forget the trick of the week, and don't believe the magazine articles 100 percent. There are several things one can do to improve the performance of any vehicle without selling your first-born to finance your project. Keep in mind that it's just as much fun, and cheaper, getting a 14 second car to go a little faster/quicker than it is for a 7 second car.

I'll try to answer any and all questions, and plead ignorance when I don't know the answer.

Ron

[desertratrodder]

Not an engine question, but front axle/steering.

Is there an advantage (besides weight) for the typical early Ford transverse spring front end VS a parallel leaf front end (like a gasser)

I ask, because the 26 Chrysler frame I have is set up with a parallel leaf front already. I would change that to something later, like F100 or Econoline.

More bounce/ less bounce from one to the other? Either one safer?

Does parallel leaf just not fit the class of car?

All insight and smart-ass comments welcome!

[Ron Golden]

One problem with a transverse front spring is they require shackles on at least one end of the spring, most use shackles on both ends of the spring. When the spring unloads, or compresses, the shackles have to move since the spring gets shorter or longer. If the car accelerates hard enough to unload the spring, then settles down, one spring shackle may move more than the other one. This means the spring moves sideways in relation to the chassis. If the car has cross steering, the steering box doesn't move but the front axle does, and the front wheels turn one way or the other. The car will settle down and dart sideways.

The cure is to put a panhard rod on the front end. This will keep the front axle/chassis relationship secure and the wheels won't turn.

Jack up the front end of a car with a transverse spring (jack under the chassis), put a big screwdriver in the shackle while someone holds the steering wheel steady. You can force the spring sideways by moving the shackle. Watch the front wheels turn without moving the steering wheel. Believe me, this can be a very exciting ride, especially if the car picks the front end up off the pavement. Been there-done that. Wild ride.

Something to consider; these cars run on a smooth surface and don't really require any front or rear suspension. Much simpler, less weight...car goes quicker. I've run 2 dragsters without any suspension. The quicker one ran high 7's, low 8's @ 160 MPH+ with a 1.07-1.15 second 60 ft time. Drive in the park.

Ron

[desertratrodder]

So is parallel leaf better, as far as the shackles shifting, etc of the transverse setup?

As I said before, my frame is already setup with 2 leafs front and rear. Just need to see if anyone recommends changing it to transverse. Or run it as is.

Very good info you gave out, It has me thinking...

Thanks Ray

[Ron Golden]

Ray,

Your parallel set-up will be very steady, much more than a transverse leaf set-up. I'd run it like it is. Besides it will ride much better if you decide to take it for a drive across the desert.

Ron

[louvered48]

Ron thanks for inputs got me thinking I might remove my torsion bars and mount the ft end soild. I could lose some weight, car too. mmm doughtnuts. thanks GREG

[ThingyM]

Ron.. I drilled and pin'd the spring.. It doesn't move.. But still has the looks..ALL the early race cars had springs. If you start removing them and going ridgid, then you just lost the idea of HA/GR...JMO .......Dick...

[FiddyFour]

i see this thread becoming a dick slamming contest about aesthetics... and usualy i dont like these but... springs or lack thereof can make the car lose the spirit? i just dont get that one at all... if anything would do that it'd be the cages, or maybe the electric fuel pumps, battery shut offs, 5 point harnesses with arm restraints... i dont see how a spring can deviate from the true nature of the class

[Ron Golden]

I think as long as the cars kinda look like "The Bug" we're still within the "spirit". To be ABSOLUTELY CORRECT we would have to all build an exact duplicate of the original Bug. Then it becomes a cookie-cutter car, like NHRA Top Fuel. We also couldn't meet our own rules if the cars were exact duplicates of The Bug. Kind of a Catch 22 situation, isn't it.

I'd like to see automatic tranny's and radial rear tires. However, these don't meet the rules, so no reason to even discuss it again. Sorry I mentioned it.
Lets build them according to the present rules and encourage innovation of design.

Ron

[ThingyM]

Id like to see the radials used, as they are much easier to find and about 1/2 the price..$104.00ea for bias ply....

[dabirdguy]

Hey Ron,
I've seen several pictures of guys running flatheads without radiators or water pumps. I know the waterpumps steal horsepower.
I'm nearing the decision point on wether or not to include a radiator. Our original design included one.
Any idea how long a Flatty can run without the pumps working?

Glenn

[desertratrodder]

I was talking to an old guy that used to run flattys at Bonneville a long time ago. He said they filled the blocks with something solid, and used no coolant at all. He said the engines were fine and did not blow after one pass.

[Ron Golden]

Glenn,

I doubt the flat motor would run more than about 2 minutes without getting damn hot. And that wouldn't be at full power. When I was running the front engined dragster with a mild SB Chevy we drained and refilled the block between every round. By the time we did a burnout, staged and made our run the engine was "puking".

If you happen to get in eliminations, the time between rounds can be pretty short and you have to decide to run a hot engine or pass on the round. I'd pass.

Having the engine at a certain temperature at the start of the run will help you be more consistant. When I dyno an engine I have to make sure the water temp is constant or the HP & TQ numbers may change. I'd definately use a radiator, or at least a reservoir and circulate the water with water pumps, or an electric pump of some kind.

Ron

[Ron Golden]

I agree that filling the block with something like Hardblok would take longer to heat up....it would also take longer to cool off. Something else to consider; without water circulating the combustion chamber would become very hot almost immediately and detonation could rear it's ugly head.

I think I'd run a radiator and be safe.

Ron

[Old6rodder]

We run water in the block & head and a puke can.

We also keep our running to absolute minimums. We fire up and roll'er quickly then shut down and coast in gear with the clutch in, then bump-start at a given speed and roll'er again, shut off and coast, etc. We do this from the pits into the lanes then push by hand (she rolls well) in the lanes.
We use the starter to fire and stage and will shut down and wait at the drop of a hat. I've even shut'er off in the pre-stage box to wait out a minor problem. Sometimes being self starting comes in handy.

After turning off the strip we use the same procedure on the return road.

Swap in fresh water and we're ready to go again.

The only time we've had a problem with it was at Dragfest where we took the old fire-up road all the way back to parade past the stands and then around and back to the pits. The spectators loved that but it did make for more heat build-up. Team Twir'lin pulls theirs around with a quad so doesn't have a problem.
Even then we managed OK and only boiled over twice, due mostly to being in a line-up on the return trip and not able to coast for awhile. Eventually we went back to the starter for that part of it as well.

[Mr. Mac]

We tried it both ways when we run our flathead car. Running a radiator was alot easier and alot better on the engine.
More weight but you can get small radiators that weigh hardly
anything and hold just enough water to keep it cool.
Electric water pump is a must,pumps alot of water and weigh,s
probably half or more than stock pumps do.

[moparsled]

I'm building the flathead six in mine with water in the engine, no water pump, an overflow can only. Hey, if it doesn't work, I'll add the other junk later.

[Ron Golden]

Not very hi-tech, but Sears use to sell a small 12 volt water pump that took 5/8" inlet and outlet rubber hoses. The thing was about the size of your fist and pumped a lot of water. I think it was used on boats as a bilge pump. Cheap too.

Ron

[FiddyFour]

i can guarantee one thing for sure... cowboy bob had coolant getting into the right bank on his flat motor at kaukauna about a month ago or so, and wanted to keep racin' ... so out came the water and he ran it dry for at least two more runs down the 1320' had no ill effect from what we could see.

[Jim Marlett]

Dry flathead blocks do save some weight, but unless you are running alcohol, they tend to crack eventually. They also take a long, long time to cool. I'd be inclined to run a wet block with an electric water pump even if you didn't run a radiator just to keep the hot spots moving around.

[Drewfus]

budget elec-trick;) water pump - use factory water pump, but instead of driving of crank (robbing what little hp there is;):D), adapt a small pulley to a heater motor mounted of side of block. It doesn't have to be spinning water all that hard, it's just needs to be enough to keep the water circulating.

Obviously this is all weight, so a compact little water pump is worth the investment.

Cheers,

Drewfus

[ThingyM]

I'm going to use my old Dedenbear waterpump. It worked real good on another car.. So it should be fine for a HA/GR....

[Toymaker]

I'm going to use my old Deadenbear waterpump. It worked real good on another car.. So it should be fine for a HA/GR....
:eek: Deadenbear!:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[GMC BUBBA]

We dynoed our salt flathead with and without the pumps. The difference was 3 hp. Not really worth the extra maintance.
I have run my ha/gr gmc dry every since we built it , no real problems , just fire it and run, shut it off. Hasnt seemed to hurt it yet, we are thinking about adding a radiator with coolant though..

Ron, hows your gmc run ? Got any times and pictures etc??

[Ron Golden]

Bubba,

How much HP & TQ did your flat motor make, and at what RPM's?

Did you ever dyno your GMC?

The GMC is still going together. It seems like every part has to be custom made and takes months to get. I think I finally have all the parts except for pushrods and their on order.

By the way the JE pistons are 400 grams lighter than stock, the piston pins are 84 grams lighter and the rods are about 100 grams lighter. All together I saved over 1 1/4 pounds on each piston/pin/rod assembly. I hope that helps keep the crank happy.

Ron

[ThingyM]

Rocky:: Whats so funny.. Thats a great pump..Electric..

[Toymaker]

Rocky:: Whats so funny.. Thats a great pump..Electric..I know, I was just screwin' around and plying the TRADITIONAL card;)

[64 DODGE 440]

For the weight conscious remember that water weighs eight pounds per gallon.

[dabirdguy]

OK....New flathead question....
I have a 53 Merc flathead.
Near me is a '48 Flathead out of a driver with about 80k miles on it.
He's doing a rebuild and replaceing it with stroked flathead.
1. Is this engine a direct swap for the Merc?
2. Is $425 a decent price for it?

Things break when racing. I have a backup tranny. This would be a backup motor.

You guys are a big help!

Thanks again!

[2b-banjo]

If you are using a short Merc Bell Housing on the 1953 Motor, it will bolt up without having to use the Merc Housing, as this is part of earlier engine. If it has 80K and is not cracked (runs) $450 is not out of line at all.
2B

[Ron Golden]

Bubba,
I haven't figured out how to post pictures yet. Damn computers.

Ron

[FiddyFour]

ron, if you kin get em email'd to me, i'll make sure they get posted

[ThingyM]

OK!! What are you guys using for clutches on you in line 6s..I was thinking about using a RAM steel flywheel. with a 300 series disk and a McLeod pressure plate..I've heard some of you say that you had clutch problems and I sure don't want any..Any suggestions...

[dabirdguy]

I have another question as well....
The front end I bought was from a 48 Ford.
I have split the bones.
The spring shackles were shot. I bought new ones.
Getting the bushings out was a bitch. I took the thing to every machine shop and speed shot in the area and no one had a clue how to press the bushing out because of the nature of the beasts. Then I remembered the grind down a bolt head to match the diameter trick.

My question is...
How the hell do you get the new one in?
I screwed one of them up trying to do the home-made press thing with sockets and clamps. It started in nice and east. It got 3/4ths of the way in and the bushing bulged out from the force needed to move it.
I cleaned the hole up very nicely. It looked and felt smooth. No burrs or other obstructions. I lightly beveled the edges to make sure there was no problem from the extraction. I used a penetrating oil to keep the thing lubed.

Is this shoddy replacement parts (They came from Mac's - made in India) or did I do something wrong?
Ideas?

[Mac1]

The tool you needed was a remove & install shackle driver tool.
The driver screwed on to the shackle pin untill tight against the shackles outer sleeve, then driven out with a big beater. The driver had shackle perch bore clearance.

For installation, there was a thick outer steel sleeve that slipped over the full length of the shackle outer sleeve to prevent bulging when driven in. Not always succesfull with a tight fit bore/ shackle combo.
The old time mechanics would grind a little off the shackle OD and then drive it home.
And this was with new Ford factory shackles.

If the shackle outer sleeve is frozen in the perch bore and can not be driven out, knock all the guts out of the shackle and/or collapse the sleeve or cut a groove its full length. They made a special chisel to cut this groove in the outer sleeve.

Mac1

[GMC BUBBA]

Bubba,

How much HP & TQ did your flat motor make, and at what RPM's?

Did you ever dyno your GMC?

The GMC is still going together. It seems like every part has to be custom made and takes months to get. I think I finally have all the parts except for pushrods and their on order.

By the way the JE pistons are 400 grams lighter than stock, the piston pins are 84 grams lighter and the rods are about 100 grams lighter. All together I saved over 1 1/4 pounds on each piston/pin/rod assembly. I hope that helps keep the crank happy.

Ron


I havent dynoed either GMC ( i drive one every day in a model A), my driver is a tbi injected 322 as well.
I have driven this one for five years in the A, quick change and four speed.
Our flatty in our salt truck makes 185 hp. We have a bigger newer hilborn injected motor on the engine stand ready to dyno now. I figure we need 200 plus to run the truck ( 1949) on the record. The record is 101 and we have ran 97 mph 5-6 runs. The air density kills ya out there. www.gasolinealleyshops.org

[dabirdguy]

Thanks MAC1.

[Toymaker]

OK!! What are you guys using for clutches on you in line 6s..I was thinking about using a RAM steel flywheel. with a 300 series disk and a McLeod pressure plate..I've heard some of you say that you had clutch problems and I sure don't want any..Any suggestions...
I'm gonna use a cover with low static PSI and a disc with ceramic pads.

[348chevy]

I have a Zoom 3000lb. competition clutch and a organic disk. DO NOT USE AN ORGANIC DISK!!!!!!!!!! that thing slipped badly. Use a ceramic or a sinthered iron disk. The iron disc is what slipper clutches use and they can take the abuse of second gear starts. I have fought this clutch problem and I have a ceramic disk in it now and we will find out if it is the answer on the 11th. I have a powerglide and I'm putting it in after the 23rd of August. :mad:Roy

[Ron Golden]

Roy,
I think the P'Glide is a good move from a cost standpoint, less breakage and the spectators could care less.

I'm not trying to start any shit, just my opinion.

Ron

[dabirdguy]

Ok......what i know aboout older front ends you can put in a thimble and still have room for an elephant herd.
We bent the spring perches on the bones so that they are almost parrallel to the bones. in the mockup (I'll have pics later today or tomorrow) it seems we went too far. They are close, and I think that the the shackles can be installed, but it looks like they will bind.
How critical is the match betwween the perch and the spring ends?
Do they have to be perfectly parrallel?
Is doing a second bend worth doing?
Is there a risk to the bones bending them again?

You guys ARE the best for sharing what ya know.
THANKS!
Glenn

[Hudsonator]

Are powerglides going to be within the rules of this class?

I've been away too long, catching up is a bitch.

[Rand Man]

HA/GR is a manual transmission class. We feel it evens the score, no matter what you do to the engine. This makes HA/GR a game of driving skill.

There are a nice bunch of guys in Tulsa that allow an auto trans, but they have developed a separate class.

[Hudsonator]

HA/GR is a manual transmission class. We feel it evens the score, no matter what you do to the engine. This makes HA/GR a game of driving skill.

There are a nice bunch of guys in Tulsa that allow an auto trans, but they have developed a separate class.

Thanks Rand Man. I've just talked to one of the guys from Tulsa. I'm a bit overly excited.

The trans situation haunts me in street driven, not abused (too much), Hudsons already. When I read the PG stuff, I nearly jumped out of my seat.

I need to get busy.

Hud

[Mercury Kid]

I've been looking but haven't found anything about wheelbase limits. Are there any?

[lindross]

I've been looking but haven't found anything about wheelbase limits. Are there any?

No wheelbase limits.

Official Rules (http://hambdrags.com/HaGr/rules.html).

[ThingyM]

Just no 225"ers.. Some where around 90"--130" long is what most seem to have...

[mudflap261]

just keep in mind these cars are susposed to be from the late 40s /50s so your not go tohave a long wheel base. if you use a 10 ft stick of 118 wall tubeing ,put a ft end and rear end on it you will be just right

[dabirdguy]

the Horrible clocks in at ~122".

[Old6rodder]

Even the Barn Job tops out at 138", and that's only 'til we get around to shortening the gearbox's tail shaft. That'll bring'er to our target of 122"-124", or roughly 10'.

[Mercury Kid]

I was thinking on the short end of the limit. I want to go fast, not carry around 4 extra feet of nose. If it don't serve a purpose, I don't need it. There's no way 170 cubes swilling pump gas will have any problem with the nose coming up.

[Buick Fasterback]

I think as long as the cars kinda look like "The Bug" we're still within the "spirit". To be ABSOLUTELY CORRECT we would have to all build an exact duplicate of the original Bug. Then it becomes a cookie-cutter car, like NHRA Top Fuel. We also couldn't meet our own rules if the cars were exact duplicates of The Bug. Kind of a Catch 22 situation, isn't it.

I'd like to see automatic tranny's and radial rear tires. However, these don't meet the rules, so no reason to even discuss it again. Sorry I mentioned it.
Lets build them according to the present rules and encourage innovation of design.

Ron I have a HA/GR I started in 2004 and then the rules were either or stick or auto. I put a power gulide in it. It is way safer than a cast iron fly wheel and stock steel rivited together clutches. I have seen clutches and flywheels come apart. I am 65 yrs. old and I have been dragracing for 50yrs. I have seen a bunch of clutch-flywheels come apart. And I have seen people get hurt even with Scatter schields in place. The track owners and spectators both want to see a car run down the track, not blow a set of cluster gears off the line and shutting down the race for everybody. NHRA or IHRA will not let you race running stock junk. I believe that most of the flack about auto trannys is coming from people who don't even own a HA/GR and never will. And the ones bitching about who do own onr are a minority. Lets take a vote. Or run 2 classes. and the winner of each class run for top dog.

[Buick Fasterback]

HA/GR is a manual transmission class. We feel it evens the score, no matter what you do to the engine. This makes HA/GR a game of driving skill.

There are a nice bunch of guys in Tulsa that allow an auto trans, but they have developed a separate class.
Rand Man how come you quit comin to Tulsa to race with us? We let you win once. Thinkin if we let you win you would come back.

[FiddyFour]

If it don't serve a purpose, I don't need it. There's no way 170 cubes swilling pump gas will have any problem with the nose coming up.

it's got less to do with lifting the front wheels, and more to do with control of the car... ask anyone whos raced a fiat how squirly they get above 75-80mph, and even the least fast of the HA/GR cars is goin north of that number

[CrkInsp]

IF you can lift the front wheels on one of these cars on 6 " tires, you've got some serious rearward center of gravity. Are you running a " V " drive with the motor over the rear axle? LOL. But if you can, more power to you. Bring it to Tulsa.

[FiddyFour]

IF you can lift the front wheels on one of these cars on 6 " tires, you've got some serious rearward center of gravity. Are you running a " V " drive with the motor over the rear axle? LOL. But if you can, more power to you. Bring it to Tulsa.


2B can, and has lifted the front end off the ground with his car. . .

[Ron Golden]

Buick,

I'm 67 and have been at this for way too many years. Like you, I've seen the end result of a blown clutch and flywheel. When I was about 17 I ran around with a buddy that had a new 270 HP,57 Vette, and I saw the tach above 7000 RPM lots of times. The pressure plate finally blew up when it was at about 3000 RPM. It still took out the throttle pedal, tranny, starter, clutch and everything in that area.

Several of the guys have blown their tranny more than once. I think Roy Merritt holds the record with 5 blown trannys. He changed to a powerglide recently.

I agree with your statement 100%, but have decided to keep my mouth shut, play by the rules, and stop rocking the boat. As I've stated before, if I have any clutch/flywheel/tranny problems I'll switch to a powerglide in a heartbeat.

I agree there needs to be another class for the automatics....and feel that's where it will evolve to. The manual, low HP class can be for the guys that don't really care if they race, they just want to go down the strip and have fun. I'm all for that also. However, I came to race.

Ron

[2b-banjo]

Running old clutch parts on anything that you race is not a safe practice, you must remember other people are present. A friend of mine died when a clutch blew up at Great Lakes dragway and he was in the stands. I will stay with a stand trans, but can see where it is easier for some to run an auto trans, I did go through a time that cost some parts, before present setup, which is working. This is racing and I also came to race.
2B

[Dolmetsch]

Nothing stopping any of us from building the way we want. Auto or standard. There was nothing stopping anyone 50 years ago either. HAGR/A? Why not.
Suspension. i have 1/4 eliptic front suspension. light easy and works well.
I built mine 96 inch wheelbase so i wouldnt need a trailer but could carry in in my pickup, which i do. I dont think i could see the front wheels now it they were say 130 away. Heck, i cant even read the tach! It ran straight as an arrow. video on Dropshots. It seemed light on the rear at speed. Was skating a bit in the lights but not enough t scare one. Just enough to feel it. front end was tracking true though.
Don

[bobw]

Has anyone snuck a set of pie crust (or current style) slicks on their car and compared 60' times? Just wondering...

[Ron Golden]

Bob,

Not yet, but I'll know this spring.

Ron

[bobw]

A question for slant six guys. I know Joe Hamby ordered a sfi-legal flywheel from McLeod. He stated they do not make a sfi clutch. Has anyone found a sfi clutch that fits the small bellhousing? If not, what clutch works best? and is the least likely to blow up?