Who were all of the manufacturers of "dragmaster" styled

[Roothawg]

Who were all of the manufacturers of "dragmaster" styled chassis?

I know some companies evolved into others...who all were they?

I am trying to do a little research on the subject but I am having a hard time finding anything.....

Who was it that pm'd me a long time ago about the buddy that restores vintage dragsters? They gave me a name but I have lost the info after the "Big Crash of 04".

[Roothawg]

I am particularly interested in the 130" wheelbase cars.

[Smokin Joe]

Jazzy Jim Nelson and Dode Martin from Carlsbad were behind Dragmaster.

[32viper]

Root, I seem to remember Logghe Stamping might have made the dragmaster style frames. I mostly remember them from their altereds though. Try looking in early 60''s Hot Rod Magazine for advertisements.

[Mutt]

Root - I'm not sure what you mean by Dragmaster Styled chassis.

The early builders of note were Chassis Research, Dragmaster, Fuller, and out East, Logghe Stamping.

Mutt

[beatnik]

Yea they did a lot of different stuff

Ron & Gene Logghe
aka The Logghe Brothers
Logghe Stamping Co.

check here for some more info:
The Logghe Bros (http://www.metalshapers.org/nitrogeezers/Logghe1.htm)

[DuckusCrapus]

I thought Logghe Chassis made them first....but then again....I don't know much. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

If anyone does find info, post it here for others to see.

[DuckusCrapus]

Whoops looks like you guys beat me to the punch.

[Roothawg]

What about Scotty??? Fenn? I am drawing a blank.....

[Mutt]

Scotty Fenn was Chassis Research.


Mutt

[Roothawg]

[ QUOTE ]
Root - I'm not sure what you mean by Dragmaster Styled chassis.

The early builders of note were Chassis Research, Dragmaster, Fuller, and out East, Logghe Stamping.

Mutt

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess what I mean are the big main tube styled ,front engine, short wheel base dragster......How's that? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Mutt]

Dragmaster...

[Mutt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Root - I'm not sure what you mean by Dragmaster Styled chassis.

The early builders of note were Chassis Research, Dragmaster, Fuller, and out East, Logghe Stamping.

Mutt

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess what I mean are the big main tube styled ,front engine, short wheel base dragster......How's that? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I thought, but there was a company in Ohio that started re-popping the Dragmaster chassis in the 90's. They may still be in business - I'm not sure.

The Early Chassis research aren't very good for updating due to the style. I would look for a mid-late 60's chassis, of you're looking for a used one, because they are easier to update for tech. There's a lot of them out there that are being used for bracket cars.

Here's a place to start...

http://www.fedaonline.org/



Mutt

[DuckusCrapus]

Hey Roothawg,
I was wasting time trying to find some info on Dragmaster and found this wanted ad. You might e-mail this kat and see what he knows.

<font color="red"> WANTED


Looking for a Dragmaster frame from the 60s. Also looking for any memrobilia, photos, etc. collecting information for a book on the Dragmaster era. R.L. Hauk email: RhaukJr@bellhelicopter.textron.com
</font>

[26Tudor]

Jay Dean, of the Jalopy Shoppe, in Escondido, CA, just happens to be a neighbor of Dode Martin, and also just found a complete Dragmaster 130" chassis. Dode looked at it, and said "yep, that's one of mine"- Don't know what Jay intends to do with it, and he just left for 2 weeks in England last Thursday.I'm pretty usre the number at the Jalopy Shoppe is (760) 740-0120, if that helps.

[av8]

Jim "Jazzy" Nelson and Jim Nelson of Dragmaster were different guys.

The early manufactured chassis from Chassis Research (Scotty Fenn) and Dragmaster were "skidbar" frames, shaped like a dogsled. Fuller built two skidbar chassis for Ivo, the single-engine Buick and the twin, but only because Ivo wanted a CR-style car but wanted to get around paying CR for it.

Fuller didn't care for the concept. Commenting on the skidbar design, he had observed that dragsters didn't simply roll over and skid--they tended to turn around and slam into things rearend first, where the skidbar frame offered little or no protection for the driver. This led Kent to create the rear profile center loop and tire-high horizontal loop style that would become the standard of dragster chassis design throughout the history of the front-motor cars.

[Roothawg]

The skid bar style of cage is not what I want. I am not going to buy an old chassis, I want to build a new one that fits a big guy. New style cage hidden in an old look. It will be safe but have the looks of an old chassis.

[Radshit]

Speaking of which....I'm selling my F-1 to buy this....the deal is in progress but looks like I may have it in time for Austin..........it belongs to my pal Jamie....but I should have my grubby hands on it soon.....

[av8]

Pete Ogden's commercial chassis is the only current tech piece that looks correct. He's done a very tasty job of incorporating the second top loop and you hardly notice it. (There may be others, but none I'm aware of.) The Stirlings and Ureyhara's that are currently the hot setup in GG/VRA racing are gawdawful ugly and entirely without soul.

BTW, not sure what it is that makes you favor even the later, non-skidbar Dragmaster chassis over a Fuller, Huzar, Gilmore, or Long chassis, Root. The CR and Dramaster type chassis was heavy and had reached the limits of its potential in the late '50s.

If you're going to build a digger, might I suggest something like the car Fuller built for Western Manufacturing -- a blown gas Chevy that was as quick, fast, and good as it was handsome. Just tailor the cage and seat to your own needs, as Fuller did for all his clients, and you're there.

It's a simple matter to continue the rear dorsal hoop forward to tie into a new cross hoop -- seriously leaned back -- to meet current tech/safety regs.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4830291/64937319.jpg

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4830291/64937311.jpg

[av8]

If you are at all interested in building a Fuller-style chassis, Root, I have lots of good info and detailed pics.

I've been trying to get Fuller interested in doing a FED design manual, along the lines of the AV8 book Vern Tardel and I did. I'm getting him closer to doing the project but there's still a little bit of distance away from an okay.

In the meantime, check out some of the details of a Fuller chassis . . .

Like this three-link front end . . .

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4830291/64941767.jpg


. . . with details. Notice the boxed bracket where the torsion arm connects to the axle.
http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4830291/64941776.jpg


Here you can see the ever-so-slight outward bend of the torsion arm at its base to make it line up with the axle-control link. Was this mechanically essential? No, says Fuller. 'So, then, why'd you do it?', someone asks.

'Because that's the way it's supposed to be.' says Fuller.
http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4830291/64941781.jpg

[curbspeed]

Any pictures of the K-88 type chassis? That's the one that I dig. About 150" wheelbase.

[Stevie G]

Lee Schelin runs Standard 1320 (http://www.standard1320.com/) and is also building a FED.
Check it out. He's pretty tight with TV.

[The37Kid]

The first mass produced dragster chassis was built by Pat Bilbow of Lindwood Welding in Wilkes Barr, Pensylvania. I'm restoring one that was built for The Modifiers of Danbury Connecticut in 1959. The photo was taken in the pits at Dover Drag Strip in June of 1962. There was a feature article in How to Hop-Up Your Engine in the August 1960 issue. Every Lyndwood chassis was designed around the driver, I've never seen two that were the same. The one I'm restoring is a 92 inch wheelbase, and could be one of the chassis in the feature photo.

[The37Kid]

From How To Hop-Up Your Engine August 1960

[The37Kid]

[Justin B]

root i think you're talking about me with the pm. anyways it was a friend tommy who works for dode, if you do come across the number don't call it, that is now his ex's number http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif. i'll look for his new number and send you a pm

[Doug Evans]

Hey Root. Join the " we did it for love" web site. It has all the info you will ever want about Dragmaster Chassis and such. The other was Scotty Fenn. He built them with the roll bars parallel with the frame rails(ie TV Ivos twin Buick )My car is a 67 or 68 logghe Chassis but it is 170 inches.

[Roothawg]

Mike, that is some great info. You are correct, I would LOVE to build a chassis like that but.....my desires outweigh my abilities and I can't afford a Gilmore or Fuller car.

I figured I could use a later material like Chrome Moly to replicate the earlier styled chassis without all the weight. It would be fairly simple to fabricate and would be pretty versatile.

I just have a fetish for cars in the early kinda primitive drag racing days.

[Radshit]

I guess I need to go to Oklahoma City and get a schooling on fuel injection, still looking for pit crew help?......I could learn a lot from you and your pops.....I'm totally green to Hilborn fuel delivery systems.........

[Mojo]

Would the torsion bar setup on the front of those Fuller chassis pics work ok for a street car, if shocks were added? Very beautiful, simple design...

[Roothawg]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I need to go to Oklahoma City and get a schooling on fuel injection, still looking for pit crew help?......I could learn a lot from you and your pops.....I'm totally green to Hilborn fuel delivery systems.........

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll tell ya what I know.....that should take about 5 minutes..... It's not hard if you have ever worked on a pressure system. It's like a hydraulic system. I thought your F-1 was gone already????

[av8]

Mojo -- The Fuller torsion-bar suspension isn't designed to support a great deal of weight, such as that of a front-motor streetable hot rod. He designed his V-Rod in the '60s to use it, but like his dragsters, those cars have very low weight on the front axle. BTW, his own orginal V-Rod handles like gangbusters and has an incredibly comfortable ride. Its fettled "big-bore" Porsche four boxer has been known to humble more than a few V8-powered hot rods. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/5101980/65025695.jpg

When I see Fuller this week I'll ask him about using a beefier version of his T-bar suspension on a front-motor streeter.

[av8]

Root -- All Fuller chassis were built of 4130, so you're probably closer to being capable of doing one than you think you are.

The graceful front axles and frame hoops that set his cars apart from the competition were all sand-bent -- very easy and inexpensive to do in your own garage.

Underneath each elegant Roberts or Ewing body on a Fuller car was an equally elegant Fuller chassis, hand-crafted to fit the customer and the mission; bear in mind that not all Fuller cars were fuelers.

And not all Fuller diggers were draped with dragster tin. One of the best loved and admired Fuller cars was the modified roadster he built for Tony Nancy.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/5101980/65030869.jpg

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/5101980/65030850.jpg

Check out the frame in this panel. Looks a lot like a Fuller dragster, doesn't it? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Hmmmm . . .
http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/5101980/65030860.jpg


I fantasize about Fuller talking me through the build of one of his short cars on which I'll mount a Topolino body with the slicks located in the center of the doors and the tail of the body hanging out behind -- no filler panels, just the 'chute mount extending back through the body. I bring it up over Saturday breakfast about once a month, in the hope of eventually wearing him down. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[26Tudor]

av8, there's an original Kent Fuller (or maybe Andy Brizio? I can't remember) V-rod in Santa Rosa, owned by a guy named Walt Letherman, has a shop in Santa Rosa, does metal fab and etc. It's bright yellow with a Dick Landy blower sticking out of the pickup bed.I can get you the address and phone number if you want; I have i.t at work.I will tell you that car flat hauls ass.....

[Roothawg]

I like all of the dragsters from that era. I figure if I could keep the sheetmetal to the aft 1/4 of the car I can probably handle that. BUT....when it comes to building the parachute enclosures, I can only fantasize about that.

I like the looks of the short 130" wheelbase with a raw 6-71 on a 327, with pie crust slicks on Halibrand 5 spokes. Black chassis with spoked front wheels and a chrome tube axle.... Shwing!!!!! Now I got myself all worked up. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[av8]

[ QUOTE ]
av8, there's an original Kent Fuller (or maybe Andy Brizio? I can't remember) V-rod in Santa Rosa, owned by a guy named Walt Letherman . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

Walt is a good pal. His car is a Brizio, which he has greatly improved. The motor in his car is something else! I kid him about it, and tell him it looks like the wedding cake from hell!

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/3936189/48597928.jpg

[26Tudor]

I helped photograph Walt's car, pre-blower, for a magazine feature over Memorial Day a few years back. We have since become pretty good friends, have you seen that "Rat Patrol" chop-top V********n he did for the Billetproof show? Interesting way to chop the top, instead of adding extra roof sections, just narrow the body....

[av8]

Yes, it is an interesting approach to chopping one, and it looked pretty good the last time I saw it. He had an open house some weeks ago in which he and Don and their compatriots gathered all the pieces together to build the car for BP. Don had his Manx at the shop, reminding me how much I love those rascally little cars.

[Roothawg]

Mike, when you see him ......ask him what they were using for a radius on the rear of the cages. I had heard that all of the dragsters were 19".The reason was that the wheel they had was an 18", and they sandpacked the tubing and heated it. Is this an old wives tale? I have a tubing bender but the radius is for a much smaller bend. That is the only part of the chassis I am really concerned about.
I like the Modified Roadster that he built. I am trying to talk Rashy and his welder buddy into building a semi-clone of it.

[av8]

In Fuller's case it's not an old wives' tale. He used an MG-TC wire wheel as a mandrel for awhile, replacing it with a steel mandreal turned for him by an old machinist he knew. Fuller still uses the same steel mandrel to do tasks like bending the front axle he made for the recreation of the S&amp;H dragster. John Shoemaker built the new chassis under Fuller's direction when Fuller turned down the job because of his declining eyesight. He's no longer capable of doing the outstanding TIG work that was characteristic of his cars, and gladly deferred to Shoemaker for whom Fuller has tremendous respect as a chassis builder. Fuller did insist on bending the front axle and making up the suspension pieces "so it would be correct."

Here's Fuller heating the axle with a big rosebud. He's just removed the axle from the little propane furnace at the back of the bench. The mandrel is in the foreground.
http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/5101980/65137025.jpg

A closeup . . .
http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/5101980/65137045.jpg

[av8]

Here are the Fuller front suspension pieces. They're cut from steel plate using Fuller's original patterns on a pantograph plasma-cutter.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/5101980/65129825.jpg


Here's a Fuller-type trick you might enjoy. He cuts a chamfered groove in the torsion arm, then turns a matching clamfer on the sleeve that fits into the torsion-bar crossmember . . .

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/5101980/65129784.jpg


. . . so the pieces are self-aligning for welding, which is done on the inside of the sleeve.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/5101980/65129799.jpg


Finally, Fuller gives the finished torsion arms a slight outward bend . . .

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/5101980/65129808.jpg


. . . so they are parallel to the axle control links, "because they look better this way."

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/5101980/65246865.jpg

[Rand Man]

I would be interested in collaborating on a book. I can produce CAD drawings. I’ve wanted a front engine dragster since I was a kid. The Fuller chassis looks like a well-engineered package. I would we honored to work with him.

[Roothawg]

Mike, those pics rule..... I wish I only knew what he has forgotten.... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Swedester]

soo,if any of you guys digs up an old(or new) blueprint for such a chassie,I´d be interested in buying a copy.

[av8]

Just for fun, four restored Fullers shot by Tom West at the CHRR about five years ago. Front to back -- Western Manufacturing, GBP, Vagabond, and the Magicar.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/5101980/65284559.jpg

In addition to the Ivo two- and four-motor Buick cars, there are several more Fuller cars that have been restored by now with several more in work.

[av8]

Here's the first Magicar chassis on its first day of racing. The scene is Fontana and Fuller is demonstrating and explaining the super-supple front end to an NHRA tech steward. The car passed tech and went on to take TF honors that day.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/5101980/65287285.jpg

The Magicar, built in 1965, was a real mold-breaker on several counts. Fuller designed the front end to do no more than permit the driver to change direction -- to steer the car. In sprung front ends as well as his own torsion bar setups, directional corrections would be translated to the rear of the car and affect the individual loading of the rear tires, exaggerating steering corrections. The Magicar front end did none of that; directional changes of the steering wheels, right or left, altered the direction of the car but did not change the loading on the rear tires.

Of the "...280-300 cars, I'd guess" that Kent has built, perhaps none was quite as interesting--or controversial--as the Magicar. In addition to the compliant front suspension, the car incorporated a floating rear end with ladder-bar style control arms inside the frame. Instead of squatting like conventional fixed-axle dragsters of that era, the Magicar frame would remain level or even rise as the rearend and tires were pushed down. Three Magicars were built, one for Winkle &amp; Trapp, one for Chris Karamesines, and the Northwind car, for Art Whipple, Jim Albrich, and Ed McCulloch.

The Magicar has an enduring reputation as a "crowd pleaser," which is a polite way of saying that it was a real-handful of a ride that used all of its side of the track. Kent smiles about the lingering criticism and then recounts the car's real performance in the capable hands of Jeep Hampshire at Fremont. The car was the Winkle &amp; Trapp car, running with Larry Stellings' motor for the day. "I told Jeep to line it up about a foot from the right line and just keep it there," Kent told me. "He did, all the way down the track. He didn't have any trouble with it." And Hampshire did set quick time, top speed, and won top fuel that day.

The Magicars' misremembered performance is due in large part to some really silly pronouncements made by a popular drag-racing motor-journalist of the '60s who opined that Fuller's creation was too light and, ergo, an extremely dangerous car. The scribe based this not so much on a great deal of seat time in dragsters, of which he had zilch, but rather on his clever and irreverent writing of event coverage which was much loved and quoted to one another by his young railbird readership. The object lesson orchestrated by Fuller and carried out by Jeep Hampshire at Fremont served only to turn the scribe into a more-deeply entrenched foe. And as motor-journalists of then and now are fond of reminding us, it's not smart to embarass or piss off the guy who buys ink in 55-gallon drums.

The truth and reality of the Magicar and its inherently good performance have outlived the no-nothing attacks made upon it, although the mo-jo won the day and there were few takers for the new chassis, such was the groundless fear laid down in ink. Fuller, not one to linger very long where the current of progress begins to eddy at the side of the stream, moved on to further refine his mainstream chassis and take a bit of a detour to design and develop an inexpensive little streetable hot rod that could be built in a carport in a couple of weekends and return tons of fun for pennies-pre-mile. That was the V-Rod -- not very traditional as hot rods go, but then neither were Fuller's dragster designs and contruction methods that no one had seen before he came along to show us how it should be done.

[Roothawg]

Thanks Mike, that was a great read. I had no idea that there was more than 1 Magicar.

[Roothawg]

This is worth bringing up for the guys who may be interested in building a digger......

[DrJ]

This is worth bringing up for the guys who may be interested in building a digger......

It definitely is, if you can find a way to recover and repost the pictures :(

[Rand Man]

I saved several of the photos on my old computer. I could recover those if all else fails.

[av8]

It definitely is, if you can find a way to recover and repost the pictures :(

I suppose I could re-post my pics as a group this evening, after F1 qualifying. It would be easy enough to figure out where they go.

Mike

[DrJ]

I suppose I could re-post my pics as a group this evening, after F1 qualifying. It would be easy enough to figure out where they go.

Mike

That's a lot of repeat work and I found the "system" still has a lot of pics I posted but won't show up because they are time limited.
You can find them through your User CP.
What I was thinking is that since Roothawg is a HAMB "Editor" he might be able to reinset them in the thread.
I don't know if that's possible or not, and that's why i couldn't possible do that editor job even if asked, but, AV8 reposting the pics would make more sense in a new thread... :) :cool:

[Roothawg]

That's a lot of repeat work and I found the "system" still has a lot of pics I posted but won't show up because they are time limited.
You can find them through your User CP.
What I was thinking is that since Roothawg is a HAMB "Editor" he might be able to reinset them in the thread.
I don't know if that's possible or not, and that's why i couldn't possible do that editor job even if asked, but, AV8 reposting the pics would make more sense in a new thread... :) :cool:
I guess I could post em in the calendar......Ryan is scared of giving me too much power...:rolleyes: