B Banger Build Up

[FORDY 6]

This is the B motor in my '31 coupe I was trying to get ready for the HAMB Drags, ran out of time and ended up in Arizona visiting my daughter.

Thomas head, Zepher intake with Stromberg 81's, Mallory distributor, header with dual exhaust, etc...Steve

[Mild Mitch]

Have you run it yet? If so, how do you like the Head and Dist?

[FORDY 6]

I replaced a Lion head and 97's with the Thomas and 81's, it ran good before I tore it apart. Don't anticipate any problems with the new set up. Will test run my coupe shortly, when I finish some brake work...Steve

[restorit]

Hey - nice picture. You must have had help loading it...restorit

[sodbuster]

Very neat post. My pops and I were talking about getting something together with a banger in it for next years drags. I think that I need to blame Mark Morton from Hop-up for setting the bug.

[Artiki]

What cam you got in there?

[side_valve]

4-bangers RULE!

[FORDY 6]

Supposed to be a Bill Stipe street grind cam, it was already in there when I got the motor.

Thanks for the photo help restorit.

[Artiki]

Nice. You got any dyno figures or estimates?
I'm running a stock banger with a Winfield head & 94 at the moment and am considering what cam to fit over the Winter.

[RenoRat]

well...mine isnt a b.. its an A but it has a winfield head zepher intake dual 97's wico magneto but... i just found a lil metal shavings under the valve cover...bummer

[TV]

Fordy 6, I've done a lot of work on Thomas heads. If you open up behind the valves a small amount and shave it a 1/32". that engine will come alive like no tomarrow.--TV http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[SamIyam]

Cool!
Sam.

[FORDY 6]

Thanks for the comments and info...never had it on a dyno, but is much faster than a stock '29 I had a few years ago. 65 mph is no problem, the reason for the brake work.

[fab32]

Sweet looking 4 banger.My first Model A had the stock one in it when I got it. Drove it from Michigan to Pennsylvania and transplanted the V8 out of my grandfathers.'47 Ford schoolbus. That little 4 would just sing along, almost regretted taking it out.

Frank

[TV]

Fordy 6, I'm alittle surprized you took the Lion head off, I think it's a little better head than a stock Thomas. Like I said with a little work the Thomas will do better, but then again the Lion could stand some work also. I have one of the duel plug Lions I plan on playing with soon.An't this funnnnn.--TV http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[FORDY 6]

TV - I didn't like the looks of the Lion Head, but the dual plug head is another story. What distributor are you using?

[Mild Mitch]

I've heard that those LION heads REALLY SUCK, especially the dual plugs version!

[Elrod]

Are you planning on selling your Lion Head?

[Pete1]

Artiki,
When you get around to deciding on a cam, I may be of some help. I have been in the cam business 50 years. I have a flathead "B" that makes 168 hp on the dyno on gas.
Email me about the cam. I don't do business on message boards.
Pete

[Mild Mitch]

Pete,
I'm interested in your cams for a New A motor we are going to put together shotly for my Daughter's Roadster.
Please let me know what you have, email:
mildmitch@hotmail.com
Thanks,
MM

[Artiki]

Pete 1,
Thanks, I'll keep this topic bookmarked and get in touch when ready.
What was the spec of the engine that you got 168 bhp from? The sounds like an incredible banger.

[Darwin]

168HP out of a flat banger? That's insane. Geez that's pretty good output for a Merc multi-carb V8. The thing must be massively bored and stroked and have a King Kong bottom end.

[Pete1]

Here are the specs as close as I remember. I built it 4 years ago.

"B" engine specs.

Block was welded and remachined to have 4 intake ports.
Cam line bored over size to take .488 lift radius lifter cam.
D&L Automachine cam and lifters.
Titanium valves. 5/16 stem, 1.750 heads.
BB crank drilled for pressure and lightened on throw side to get more counterweight.
"H" beam forged rods. Forged pistons.
Dan Price finned head. 10-1 comp.
Dan Price alum. pan. Dan Price oil pump.
Jacobs computer ignition. Roto-Faze distributor.
Equal length header. 12 lb alum. flywheel. Alum clutch.
Big block Chev front damper. (Fluid type)
Gear drive starter.
600 Holley carb on 14 inch runner, manifold.
I ran the Holley when the engine was in the race car. I ran 2 Stromberg 48's on the street.
This engine holds the class record in every model A hillclimb it ran in.

[FORDY 6]

What transmission is everybody using? I still have the stock A unit in for now.
Pete1 - my B motor isn't quite that wild = $$$, but sounds nice!, just need it to look good and keep up with traffic...Steve

[Pete1]

I use a T5 mated to a Chev bellhousing and the bellhousing mated to the B block with a 2 inch thick adaptor.
Chev flywheel and starter.Very easy conversion.
Pete

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hey Pete1, have any sources or details for stuff like that adapter, where pedals mount etc.? I want to do the same thing to my A- have the bellhousing & T-5, now I want to put it my Tudor. Thanks Jim

[Pete1]

I built the adaptor myself and didn't keep any data (dimensions etc). The magic number is 2 inches on the thickness tho. The basic idea is make a template off the block and another off the bellhousing. Then drill appropriate holes on both sides. The center counterbore is the only thing critical. It has to take the transmission pilot and be dialed into the crank centerline.
I use Wilwood swing pedals.

[TV]

Pete 1, I'm getting 170 HP out of my flathead, My motor is almost a carbon copy of yours big valves,10.5 comp Thomas extra cam brgs wild ass cam.10lb flywheel, Roto Phase with a 6A box We didn't mod the block but I have one I'm going to build. I'll get you the spects on the cam if ya like. O ya I'm also running a t-5 box off a chevy bell. I'll bet you had a hell of a time sealing that 10.5 Thomas. I had to O-Ring mine.--TV http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif O Mild Man, I Heard Winfields suck to. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[TV]

Pete 1 Thats interesting on the adapter I used an explosion proof housing and my plate is 2" also.--TV http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Pete1]

Yup, when I had it in the race car I used a Lakewood bellhousing. When I had it in the 2 door I used a stock Chev housing and made 1/4 thick steel floorboards. Not much chance of a racing clutch and flywheel exploding anyway.
The more weight I added to the 2 door, the better it seemed to tow the trailer.

[Artiki]

[ QUOTE ]
O Mild Man, I Heard Winfields suck to. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

No way, Jose http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Some of the old guys running bangers up hills reckon the Winfield heads are among the best designed. Mine really scoots for an otherwise near-stocker.

[hotrodA]

Enjoying this post!
Have any of you personally run 366 Chevy truck pistons? I need the pop-up they offer for my Alexander OHV. Understand all that's needed is to chamfer the shoulder above the deck and cut the pin retainer grooves.

[Rusty]

How much money do you have in this motor?

[Artiki]

[ QUOTE ]
Enjoying this post!
Have any of you personally run 366 Chevy truck pistons? I need the pop-up they offer for my Alexander OHV. Understand all that's needed is to chamfer the shoulder above the deck and cut the pin retainer grooves.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know anything about OHV conversions myself, but have a read here...
http://www.specialtymotorcams.com/pages/ovhconversions.html
This guy built his own OHV conversion using a 327 head!!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
He may have some answers for you.

[Darwin]

Pete1 you said that you used a Chevy/Lakewood housing and a 2" thick adapter bolted to the block. Aside from the safety aspects of the Lakewood do you think this is a better way than using an adaptor that goes between the A bellhousing and a GM trans? I know that there is a kit out there that uses this approach but it's intended for a basically stock drivetrain configuration. Your config sounds better for a seriously powerful motor. Never mind--just answered my own question. I'm thinkin' the easiest route is just to have Mac's Speed Equipment ship out one of his cool looking GM/Ford bellhousings up from downunder that'll bolt right up to a banger with no adapters required. They may not be approved explosion-proof units but they sure look sharp. Gennie pedals can be used with it as well. http://www.macsspeed.com/#about

[Pete1]

hotrodA: I have Ross pistons in my engine and they are basically Chev forgings. They can make anything you can dream up. Any dome shape.

Dirty31: $12K and that is REALLY a bone of contention with my wife. She wants me to sell it because it's not being used now..She thinks we could use an enclosed trailer to better advantage...I'll hold out for a bit but I know she will prevail eventually.

Artiki: Bill Stipe at Specialty Motor Cams is a good friend of mine. We trade work quite often. I know about his head conversion.

TV: If you build another all out B, you might want to think about reversing the intake and exhaust ports...It would be a whole lot cheaper than welding a block like I did. Our flow tests indicate almost equal to what I did.

[TV]

Pete 1, When you reverse the ports, don't you have to bore the exh and sleeve it to get enough flow? I guess it would be less work than doing all four intakes. getting much more than 160 to 170 HP is really pushing the bottom end even with insurts, I think beyoud that you need a girdle to make it live. I've also got a ton of money in my B. I'm building a 5 cam bearing A stroker with a Riley 2 port for my 5 Window. Backed up by a B trans with 39 gears with a 29 tooth cluster.--TV http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[TV]

Hotrod A, I had an Alexander ohv motor in my 5 wind, 30 coupe when I was in High School. That thing wouldn't take a back seat to anything stop light to stop light. Ross can make you pistons, but you will have to give them stroke and a plaster mold of your combustion chamber.That is one cool head.--TV http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Pete1]

TV: It would be better to enlarge the exhaust by sleeving or welding when reversing but the flow was adaquate as is to not warrant the cost. I use steel main caps but
if I was going to pour nitro in it I would use a girdle.
However, I am somewhat of a traditional type and when it comes to 5 mains and a girdle, I draw the line.
I use 5 main cams. 1928's came with them.

[Digger_Dave]

Pete 1, it does my heart good to hear that I'm not alone in trying to "Squeeze Blood out of a Turnip!!"

Although I'm doing an 8 cylinder flathead; I just love to hear about those of us that want to get that last "poofteenth" (a phrase coined by carps) out of an old engine!

My "hat is off to you!"

[Pete1]

Digger Dave:
That is the neatest word I have learned is a LONG time!
I shall put "Poofteenth" amongst the top words in my vocabulary. Thanks to you and Carps.
I think I am on the edge of poofteenth with my flat V8 in the race car. I have to go thru the bottom end after every race now.

[Go Devil]

Fordy 6,
Thanks for bringing up this subject matter!
Hey all,
I am in the process of building up my daughters stock A engine. Fordy 6 has been a great help on resources. Do any of you have the specs on a full flow oil set up and the bearing conversion? Any info I can give the machine shop would be greatly appreciated.
Go Devil

[TV]

Pete 1, Have you ever built a motor reversing the ports? Or is it just the port testing you've done. Are you able to grind a billit to reverse the ports? I would really like to know. I have a machine shop, so the work is not out of my reach, but reversing would sure save a lot of money if it worked. The big work would be fabbing an intake and exhaust set up.--TV http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Pete1]

TV:
No I haven't done a reverse flow engine. Only flow bench
work on the idea.I hope you don't ask me for numbers because I did that 7 or 8 years ago and have since cleaned my file cabinet out.
I can grind a cam to do that.
The intake and exhaust fab would be a piece of cake what with the water cutting facilities available now.

[Digger_Dave]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I am on the edge of poofteenth with my flat V8 in the race car. I have to go thru the bottom end after every race now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pete 1 - Well, now that you have mentioned V8 flatheads; what kind of "tricks" have you been using?

I'm just putting an 8 together with a couple of "off the wall" bottom end tricks. First, I talked Mike Bishop (av8) into carving me one of his famous "mounds bar" 4" Merc cranks. Lightened, leading edge of counter weights knife edged and all the stress risers polished out.

Main cap reinforcement (found ARP 1/2" STUDS for the 428 Ford with girdle work perfectly)

Then (I just got back from the shop) shot peening the whole crank, the rods, ceramic coating the heads of the pistons and "Dry Lubing" the shirts. (got everybody aurguing whether that will do any good!)

Going to incorporate a harmonic balancer on the front of the crank, with the blower drive (SCoT) mated in front of the balancer.

A full balance job. (learned something from Vern Tardel; flatheads need a 6 gram OIL WEIGHT allowance)

Then.. "Meta-Lax" on EVERYTHING.

Meta-Lax is a fairly new stress relieving process. It actually puts the modecules of the parts in alignment. There are apparently only about a half dozen shops in Canada that can do it, and one is just a "stones throw" from my place!

Check this site out... http://www.bonal.com

We are even going to do the BLOCK!

[FORDY 6]

There's some interesting info and stout motors bein' built out there...how many lengths you gonna give me at the '05 HAMB Drags?

[Pete1]

Fordy6:
I don't think you want to get on a drag strip with me. My car is set up to turn left...If I was in the right lane, I would leave the line and immediately T-bone you..hee hee

Digger Dave:
I'm using a SCAT crank. I bought a rough finished casting.
(NO THEY ARE NOT CAST STEEL as advertised)
I finished it myself to get maximum stroke which ended up at
4.438. The big "secret" everyone discovered back in the 50's is to machine as much weight off the throw side as possible. Then balance the crank by turning the OD of the counterweights down. You end up with a crank that is about 3/4 inch less in diameter...really helps the engine spool up quicker not to mention less centrifugal stress on the crank.
I use 4 bolt steel main caps. I run gas so I have never needed a girdle. I still get over 1 hp per ci.
A harmonic balancer is definetly a help. The bigger and heavier the better. Unfortunately I can't run one on my engine as the water pump drives off the nose of the crank.
The ideal situation would be to have the harmonic balancer the same weight as the clutch/flywheel assembly. Not possible in real life.

[Digger_Dave]

[ QUOTE ]
Digger Dave
A harmonic balancer is definetly a help. The bigger and heavier the better. Unfortunately I can't run one on my engine as the water pump drives off the nose of the crank.
The ideal situation would be to have the harmonic balancer the same weight as the clutch/flywheel assembly. Not possible in real life.


[/ QUOTE ]

Pete, a question. Because I'm running a C4 auto trans, is there any particular weight or type of harmonic balancer I should use?

The front crank pully (original Ford) has already been machined to take an aftermarket balancer. (used Chev bolt pattern because of the availability) But have not bought a balancer yet. My balancing guy advised me to stay away from the "Fluid" type balancers.

BTW - See your PM BOX.

[Pete1]

Digger Dave:
I had a fluid damper on my 4 banger while I was racing it..
No problems..I put it on the Chev in the tow car when I built that and put an 8 inch Chev balancer on the 4 banger.
Couldn't tell any difference..We routinely put fluid dampers on engines and have not had any problems.
We did have problems with the shot filled ones in racing applications. The filler medium (fluid or shot) gets very hot during operation and the shot was actually welding itself together and putting the assembly out of balance.

[Digger_Dave]

First of all, I appologize to everybody for "steering" this thread on to V8's. But when there's an expert in the audience; ya just gotta ask some questions.

[ QUOTE ]
Digger Dave:
I had a fluid damper on my 4 banger while I was racing it..
No problems..I put it on the Chev in the tow car when I built that and put an 8 inch Chev balancer on the 4 banger.
Couldn't tell any difference..We routinely put fluid dampers on engines and have not had any problems.
We did have problems with the shot filled ones in racing applications. The filler medium (fluid or shot) gets very hot during operation and the shot was actually welding itself together and putting the assembly out of balance.

[/ QUOTE ]

My balancing guy did mention that the "shot" and "fluid" type balancers did get hot. And because I was going to primarily be driving this setup on the street, may have been why he suggested "steering" clear of them.

OK everyone, BACK TO 4 BANGERS!!

[restorit]

Hey Fordy 6 - how about some pictures of this alleged coupe with the built up b banger? restorit

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

TV:
No I haven't done a reverse flow engine. Only flow bench
work on the idea.I hope you don't ask me for numbers because I did that 7 or 8 years ago and have since cleaned my file cabinet out.
I can grind a cam to do that.
The intake and exhaust fab would be a piece of cake what with the water cutting facilities available now.

I think the easiest way to do this would be to use a timing chain instead of a timing gear. That should reverse the rotation of the cam. Then just use a regular hi-lift A/B cam as most of them are ground with pretty stout exhaust patterns. Then use a divider plate in the two "new" exhaust ports to aid in scavenging.

Now the biggest problem with using a timing chain (or belt) is that it makes the oil pump turn backwards --so one probably needs to install a flattie V-8 pump to counteract that issue. :rolleyes: Everything else should fall into place.;) ...:eek:

[Carps]

Digger Dave:
That is the neatest word I have learned is a LONG time!
I shall put "Poofteenth" amongst the top words in my vocabulary. Thanks to you and Carps.
I think I am on the edge of poofteenth with my flat V8 in the race car. I have to go thru the bottom end after every race now.

It's smaller than a Bee's dick but not as small as a Gnat's nuts. ;-)

[BOB FRUTIGER]

I have been running my " BANGER " at the 1/8mile drags. I turn 60 mph in 11 sec with SUPER WINFIELD HEAD, WINFIELD CAM and 2 - 81's. Anyone have banger 1/8 mile times?

[Model A Gomez]

I knocked the rods out of my B motor twice, Winfield Head, Ansen Manifold, Mallory dist, header and V8 trans with lightened flywheel. I had a habit of rapping it too tight in the lower gears. Put in a H&H inserted A motor, Brumfield high compression head, touring cam and have had no problems, I wouldn't build another babbit beater.

[johnneilson]

You can have a reverse cam ground, blanks available. search the banger thread from feb 2012
The biggest argument against reverse port is that the exhaust ports will crack badly. not enough cooling plus doubling up on the heat.

J

[RussTee]

Interesting comments on crankshaft Mods

[moe faster]

I am in the process of building my first juiced up 4 banger. Stock short block all rebuilt. adding a 6-1 winfield head, new 340 touring cam from specialty motor cams,webber downdraft carburetor matching aluminum intake, header, electric fuel pump with regulator, electronic ignition, lightened and balanced v8 flywheel, clings surpentine pulley system, and a aluminum side cover for looks. I have all the parts in the shop now but before i dig in any sugestions for a newbie on what i am doing right or wrong? It is going in a 30 model a p-u .