View Full Version : scrap metal price question


PoPo
05-20-2008, 03:18 AM
Ok trying to figure out the "educated" reason scrap went up so high now. I know someone on here keeps with with the times and knows the real reason, I have heard too many oh well the world ran out of metal stories now I need a real justified, educated answer.

Thanks and it is on topic because this is part of the reason I keep seeing these old fenders on the back of metal semi's on their way to the melter.

PoPo

Pir8Darryl
05-20-2008, 03:48 AM
The Chinese lack the technical expertiese and infrastructure to mine iron ore and process it into steel.

The Americans have the expertiese and infrastructure, but the EPA wont allow expanded mining, and the labor unions wont let the workers work for less than $38/hr.

The Chinese sell us a boatload of overpriced crap, and then fill the boats up with scrap steel for the return voyage.

It's absolutely amazing how simple it is to mine iron ore and smelt it into metal, but the gubberment, the trade unions, and the greenie-weenies wont have it.
So instead our "leaders" sell our souls out to a foreign power, and sleep well at night knowing their protected by their golden parachutes.

The exact same thing[s] could be said about oil/gasoline....
We got it, but we cant get it cuz the tree-huggers, the gooberment, and the unions wont allow us to drill for it.

The EPA, the sierra club, and the greenie-weenies wont let us build a new refinery because it might hurt the feelings of some species of cock-roach... And if we hurt their feelings, they might alter their breeding habbits... And if they alter their breeding habbits, they might become endangered!

The lobbiests for big oil like it the way it is because if we [average joe] did something to drive down the prices, Exxon-Mobil wouldn't have a $100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.00 proffit this month.

They want it, so they sell us a load of crap, and use the proffits to pull the rug out from under us.

The political leadership dont give a rats ass cuz they got their golden parachute.

The common man suffers.

Fresh469
05-20-2008, 03:55 AM
here's another scrap metal question that i have yet to figure out....

what makes cars worth more than regular metal? the yard here doesn't even make you take the tires or fuel tank off and they do not charge for leaving them on like they used to....there is also several pounds of fabric, foam, carpet, plastic, oil, water/antifreeze, trans fluid, wire coating.....

yet they still bring more money than say a big pile of sheetmetal...plus, with cars, people cheat the scrapyard by filling the engine blocks full of water, fuel tanks full of water, soaking the interior....you cant do things like that with regular metal....only thing i can figure is that it is easier for them to just crush them and put them in the containers instead of having to keep moving the stuff around......

notebooms
05-20-2008, 04:07 AM
yep-- what he said.

where it counts, there is no loyalty to our country anymore...

big business is international now. that's an excuse for having no loyalty to our country-- only loyal to profit. thus, screw the US workers and off to China, India, Vietnam-- you name it.

big politics is loyal to big business who got them elected. that means that our country is run by leaders who aren't loyal to it.

until there is a separation of corporation and state, this will continue to get worse.

apologize for going political...

-scott noteboom

The Chinese lack the technical expertiese and infrastructure to mine iron ore and process it into steel.

The Americans have the expertiese and infrastructure, but the EPA wont allow expanded mining, and the labor unions wont let the workers work for less than $38/hr.

The Chinese sell us a boatload of overpriced crap, and then fill the boats up with scrap steel for the return voyage.

It's absolutely amazing how simple it is to mine iron ore and smelt it into metal, but the gubberment, the trade unions, and the greenie-weenies wont have it.
So instead our "leaders" sell our souls out to a foreign power, and sleep well at night knowing their protected by their golden parachutes.

The exact same thing[s] could be said about oil/gasoline....
We got it, but we cant get it cuz the tree-huggers, the gooberment, and the unions wont allow us to drill for it.

The EPA, the sierra club, and the greenie-weenies wont let us build a new refinery because it might hurt the feelings of some species of cock-roach... And if we hurt their feelings, they might alter their breeding habbits... And if they alter their breeding habbits, they might become endangered!

The lobbiests for big oil like it the way it is because if we [average joe] did something to drive down the prices, Exxon-Mobil wouldn't have a $100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.00 proffit this month.

They want it, so they sell us a load of crap, and use the proffits to pull the rug out from under us.

The political leadership dont give a rats ass cuz they got their golden parachute.

The common man suffers.

Pir8Darryl
05-20-2008, 04:14 AM
here's another scrap metal question that i have yet to figure out....

what makes cars worth more than regular metal?
Because cars are "premium" metal. All steel bodies, copper, aluminum, etc.... Yea, there's some "waste" in the form of interior, glass, etc. But it all comes out in the wash. When smelted down, the aluminum copper and other [desirable and valuable] metals float to the top, leaving prime steel in the furnace.

When a smelter has to deal with "other" scrap steel, they never quite know what it is they have or are dealing with. But with car bodies, they know the exact quality and carbon content of the steel, and can guarantee it's quality to their customers.

Fresh469
05-20-2008, 04:22 AM
i smell what your steppin in

Pir8Darryl
05-20-2008, 04:26 AM
apologize for going political...

-scott noteboomUnfortunately, there's no way to separate the politics from those things our hobby is centered around... Steel and gasoline... Oh, and laws that effect our ability to opperate our cars upon the roads that "we" paid for.

It is for those exact reasons that I call upon the moderators to not close this [political] thread... Unless, of course, it gets nasty and/or personal.

These are issues that WE need to discuss so we can be on top of situation and well informed, and be prepared to fight back the next time "they" try to screw us over.

rustyford40
05-20-2008, 07:38 AM
The Chinese lack the technical expertiese and infrastructure to mine iron ore and process it into steel.

The Americans have the expertiese and infrastructure, but the EPA wont allow expanded mining, and the labor unions wont let the workers work for less than $38/hr.

The Chinese sell us a boatload of overpriced crap, and then fill the boats up with scrap steel for the return voyage.

It's absolutely amazing how simple it is to mine iron ore and smelt it into metal, but the gubberment, the trade unions, and the greenie-weenies wont have it.
So instead our "leaders" sell our souls out to a foreign power, and sleep well at night knowing their protected by their golden parachutes.

The exact same thing[s] could be said about oil/gasoline....
We got it, but we cant get it cuz the tree-huggers, the gooberment, and the unions wont allow us to drill for it.

The EPA, the sierra club, and the greenie-weenies wont let us build a new refinery because it might hurt the feelings of some species of cock-roach... And if we hurt their feelings, they might alter their breeding habbits... And if they alter their breeding habbits, they might become endangered!

The lobbiests for big oil like it the way it is because if we [average joe] did something to drive down the prices, Exxon-Mobil wouldn't have a $100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.00 proffit this month.

They want it, so they sell us a load of crap, and use the proffits to pull the rug out from under us.

The political leadership dont give a rats ass cuz they got their golden parachute.

The common man suffers. Yea it's all the E.P.A. and labor unions falt. I don't wont to go political .But we need the E.P.A. and unions more now then ever.

SaltCityCustoms
05-20-2008, 08:32 AM
Scrap prices are also on the rise because of the war, we are producing more tanks,planes,ammunition, etc... than normal and so are some other countries so metals are in demand.

FLAT-TOP BOB
05-20-2008, 08:37 AM
another thing is the weak dollar gives overseas buyers more buying power.

gulfwarsubvet
05-20-2008, 08:41 AM
Scrap prices are also on the rise because of the war, we are producing more tanks,planes,ammunition, etc... than normal and so are some other countries so metals are in demand.

Yeah, you guys that shoot guns have probably noticed this already.
Prices of ammo have almost doubled in the last 2 years, due to the increased prices of brass and copper.

I Drag
05-20-2008, 08:45 AM
P8D is right, steel is going up because China is becoming more industrialized. In theory, I don't have a problem with no steel mills in the US, steelmaking and the like should be done by less sophisticated countries as the US gets more high-tech and knowledge intensive jobs. That is how we all move up.

Refineries are not being built because they are very expensive and take a long time to come on-line. Who would invest in processing a commodity that is rapidly disappearing and will continue to go up in price?

don-vee
05-20-2008, 08:53 AM
In wartime, metal prices always go up. In WWII they stopped making pennies from copper. The military is THE top user of copper in the world, and one of the top users of all other kinds of metal. The weak dollar does also contribute. Not to mention the fact that the demand for metals has gone up since most cars sold in the US are now made bigger. Houses are being built bigger, which uses more copper for plumbing and wiring, and with the prices of lumber also going up, many builders are using the newer metal studs in their construction. Let's face it, in the last handful of years, the price of EVERYTHING has not just risen with inflation, it has skyrocketed unproportionately to peoples' earnings.

trailer-Ed
05-20-2008, 08:58 AM
Easy on the Unions, I'm in the sheetmetal union, and if it were not for that I would not be able to own the precious metal I have. AKA old cars.

trailer-Ed
05-20-2008, 09:00 AM
Some one should close this post, it pisses me off!

Shifty Shifterton
05-20-2008, 09:05 AM
Don't just blame the labor unions for the lack of mining, smelting, and foundrywork. Blame the american people. I've been in the foundry industry for a while and it's really rare to find an amercian born citizen willing to do that work, even if it's within the top 10% for the region's pay scale.

Even with modern safety and pollution controls, smelting and melting is a hellacious work environment. You'll go thru a dozen american-borns every time you staff an opening before finding one that sticks for a year. Immigrants (legal) are more like 1 in 3 to find the guy that sticks for a year. And they bring a positive attitude instead of walking in like they've got nowhere else to go.

No doubt about it, I love this great country of ours. But this has really opened my eyes, and causes great concern for our future. Manufacturing might equals industrial might, a healthy economy, and a mighty military. We've got to turn the ship.

Kustm52
05-20-2008, 09:10 AM
here's another scrap metal question that i have yet to figure out....

what makes cars worth more than regular metal? the yard here doesn't even make you take the tires or fuel tank off and they do not charge for leaving them on like they used to....there is also several pounds of fabric, foam, carpet, plastic, oil, water/antifreeze, trans fluid, wire coating.....

yet they still bring more money than say a big pile of sheetmetal...plus, with cars, people cheat the scrapyard by filling the engine blocks full of water, fuel tanks full of water, soaking the interior....you cant do things like that with regular metal....only thing i can figure is that it is easier for them to just crush them and put them in the containers instead of having to keep moving the stuff around......

The latest shredders can shred and sort every piece of a car for recycling. Metal, glass, rubber, copper, aluminum, etc. are all recovered. They even have found uses for the "fluff", the carpet, cloth, padding that comes out. Nothing is wasted..

Brian

Rossco
05-20-2008, 09:21 AM
Why let it piss you off? Instead of getting pissed try doing something to fix the problem. Two kinds of people in life, those who do and those who dont. Which one are you. I have been more places than I ever wanted to go, and seen more than I wanted to see. Im not complaining it was my choice. What I am trying to say is no matter what anyone say's about how screwed up the US is right now, go visit another country, see what life is like there. Some might seem better, but remember every country has their own issues. To me I think that most americans have become lazy, we have lossing skill sets and certain jobs cause theres not a high demand or they were moved overseas or now days are just used to buying whatever they need and not caring were it came from. All because someone wanted to make a buck. Relize the more China/ India/ Vietnam any of those countries develop the more its gonna cost to manufacture there, ever read about the US during the industrial revolution? Funny how history repeats itself. When cost goes up there they go somewhere else, so on and so on, until guess what someone somewhere see's that its more economical to put prodution back on US soil. Sound a little far fetched..think about it

J Man
05-20-2008, 09:37 AM
No steel mills in the USA, Pittsburgh still has 3 of them. No foundry work, I would like to know where I go every night then. GM has a foundry in MI, IN and OH. They are out there and the work is there. The problem is knowing what products come out of them and where to buy them.

I am guessing the ones that will complain about the unions are the ones that do not belong to one.

DE SOTO
05-20-2008, 10:01 AM
Refineries are not being built because they are very expensive and take a long time to come on-line. Who would invest in processing a commodity that is rapidly disappearing and will continue to go up in price?


Do you speak of OIL rapidly disappearing ? You my friend are dead WRONG !!

That may be what they want you to believe, But its just what is being discussed with Off Shore Purchase & The GREEN PARTYS not letting New drilling happen.

Right here in So.Cal. there is an Oil reserve off the coast of Santa Barbara so large we could run the well for over 60years.

But it needs a new Off Shore Derrick, Oil company ready to build it but the Tree Huggy Rich Fuckers that live on the beach say they dont want to SEE it out there window & dont want the possibility of an oil spill on THERE BEACH !

All the while they are gassing up there HUMMERS, LAND ROVERS, MBZ, BMW & whatever other Foregin or Oversize Luxury Boat they are driveing around.

There are many Oil reserves around the world that havent been tapped, its all a scare tactic to raise the price of Petrolium Products.

Ever notice the price of Liquid Petrolium products goes up.... But hard products such as Plastics, Foam Rubber, and the like dont really skyrocket ??

Betruger
05-20-2008, 10:02 AM
Scrap prices are also on the rise because of the war, we are producing more tanks,planes,ammunition, etc... than normal and so are some other countries so metals are in demand.We've contracted w/ Russia to produce nearly all our militarys small arms ammunition...

angie1313
05-20-2008, 10:06 AM
why would they want one of those oil rigs ruining their scenic view from the beachfront homes???? you expect them to suffer as well along with us?? how dare you!!!!

sarc off :D

DE SOTO
05-20-2008, 10:14 AM
why would they want one of those oil rigs ruining their scenic view from the beachfront homes???? you expect them to suffer as well along with us?? how dare you!!!!

sarc off :D


LOLOL...

Funny thing is, they are like a mile off shore and there are already 4 ro 5 outhere now.

They look cool at night with the lights on, Looks like a fleet of ships out there.

Shifty Shifterton
05-20-2008, 10:15 AM
No steel mills in the USA, Pittsburgh still has 3 of them. No foundry work, I would like to know where I go every night then. GM has a foundry in MI, IN and OH. They are out there and the work is there. The problem is knowing what products come out of them and where to buy them.

I am guessing the ones that will complain about the unions are the ones that do not belong to one.

The american foundry and steel industry shrank significantly in the 70s and 80s. It's held fairly steady ever since during a period when the rest of the economy grew. Certainly not a healthy industry by any means, and somebody from PA ought to know about the decline of "big steel"

The domestic casting industry has had a shift, we tend to produce higher value, higher technology castings. Near net shape methods like investment casting are compensating for the low value casting & steel refining that's going across the border. Unfortunately, those low value castings are really the foundation of manufacturing might, and they tend to employ alot of people.

ray
05-20-2008, 10:17 AM
The Chinese lack the technical expertiese and infrastructure to mine iron ore and process it into steel.

they have the knowledge and infrastructure, it's just cheaper to use recycled metals.

The Americans have the expertiese and infrastructure, but the EPA wont allow expanded mining, and the labor unions wont let the workers work for less than $38/hr.

i won't say we have NO infrastructure, but we let it deteriorate over the years because for a long time the price of steel was dirt cheap. i remember less than ten years ago the scrap yards where i lived at the time were paying 0 to 5 bucks a ton for scrap steel for a while. it just wasn't profitable to be mining new iron ore. i wouldn't work in a steel plant for chicken scratch wages, would you?

The Chinese sell us a boatload of overpriced crap, and then fill the boats up with scrap steel for the return voyage.

It's absolutely amazing how simple it is to mine iron ore and smelt it into metal, but the gubberment, the trade unions, and the greenie-weenies wont have it.
So instead our "leaders" sell our souls out to a foreign power, and sleep well at night knowing their protected by their golden parachutes.

The exact same thing[s] could be said about oil/gasoline....
We got it, but we cant get it cuz the tree-huggers, the gooberment, and the unions wont allow us to drill for it.

wrong again. we have SOME oil, but your are flat out wrong if you thing we could support our habit on our own resources. if you think drilling in alaska is gonna save us, do yourself a favor and research how many millions of oil a day are being used vs the thousands a day ANWAR would provide for only a few years, it's literally a drop in the bucket. besides, all of "our" oil is crappy quality like heavy sour crude, but our refineries are all setup to process light sweet crude. refining capacity isn't a problem either, we are at record high prices right now, yet our refineries are running at 80% capacity. it's not profitable to build new refineries when the old ones are not being used to capacity. i wonder why the republican majority in congress from 94 to 06, who even had 6 years with a republican president, failed to grant your wishes to drill for more oil on US soil? they had 12 years to do it! oh, but it's always the left's fault.:rolleyes: you should be celebrating the beauty of the capitalist system we have which enabled the CEOs of the big corporations the ability to use our FREE MARKET to get filthy rich at our expense. apparantly they just worked harder than the rest of us lazy bums, despite the numerous roadblocks you claim have been put up in front of them, like silly labor laws to protect workers in the most dangerous trades and the environment.

The EPA, the sierra club, and the greenie-weenies wont let us build a new refinery because it might hurt the feelings of some species of cock-roach... And if we hurt their feelings, they might alter their breeding habbits... And if they alter their breeding habbits, they might become endangered!

The lobbiests for big oil like it the way it is because if we [average joe] did something to drive down the prices, Exxon-Mobil wouldn't have a $100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.00 proffit this month.

They want it, so they sell us a load of crap, and use the proffits to pull the rug out from under us.

The political leadership dont give a rats ass cuz they got their golden parachute.

The common man suffers.

...

Pir8Darryl
05-20-2008, 10:19 AM
I just want to remind everyone to try and remain respectfull on level headed on this discussion.

These are all important points that should be discussed because they effect us, but the mods will shut us down if any one of us gets the least little bit off color.

Having said that, I'm the one who drug the unions into this debate. I'm not anti union. I'm all for fair pay, workers rights, and protection. But sometimes the unions make decisions that are more harmfull than good. I did not want to, or mean to insult anyone in that reguard, but the fact still stands. American corporations [sometimes] cant compete with cheap foreign goods because the unions wont allow them to make the nessecary cutbacks it takes to remain compeditive.

ray
05-20-2008, 10:25 AM
Do you speak of OIL rapidly disappearing ? You my friend are dead WRONG !!

That may be what they want you to believe, But its just what is being discussed with Off Shore Purchase & The GREEN PARTYS not letting New drilling happen.

Right here in So.Cal. there is an Oil reserve off the coast of Santa Barbara so large we could run the well for over 60years.

But it needs a new Off Shore Derrick, Oil company ready to build it but the Tree Huggy Rich Fuckers that live on the beach say they dont want to SEE it out there window & dont want the possibility of an oil spill on THERE BEACH !

All the while they are gassing up there HUMMERS, LAND ROVERS, MBZ, BMW & whatever other Foregin or Oversize Luxury Boat they are driveing around.

There are many Oil reserves around the world that havent been tapped, its all a scare tactic to raise the price of Petrolium Products.

Ever notice the price of Liquid Petrolium products goes up.... But hard products such as Plastics, Foam Rubber, and the like dont really skyrocket ??

the fucking green party is who is stopping new oil drilling? talk about absurd statements! oooh, i bet big oil, the republicans, etc. are all just quaking in their boots at the massive political clout of THE GREEN PARTY!:eek:

haha.

and greenie tree huggers driving hummers? what planet do you guys live on?

the oil will not last forever. not drilling here now is a strategic move on the part of our government. we might as well save it for when the real oil crisis comes, cause it's coming and they know it. it makes for sense from a right wing political standpoint to use up everybody else's resources before we use ours.

ray
05-20-2008, 10:28 AM
These are all important points that should be discussed because they effect us, but the mods will shut us down if any one of us gets the least little bit off color.

Having said that, I'm the one who drug the unions into this debate. I'm not anti union. I'm all for fair pay, workers rights, and protection. But sometimes the unions make decisions that are more harmfull than good. I did not want to, or mean to insult anyone in that reguard, but the fact still stands. American corporations [sometimes] cant compete with cheap foreign goods because the unions wont allow them to make the nessecary cutbacks it takes to remain compeditive.

actually the mods shut these threads down when us on the left actually defend ourselves. i guess it isn't political until WE speak up.

don-vee
05-20-2008, 10:29 AM
Do you speak of OIL rapidly disappearing ? You my friend are dead WRONG !!

That may be what they want you to believe, But its just what is being discussed with Off Shore Purchase & The GREEN PARTYS not letting New drilling happen.

Right here in So.Cal. there is an Oil reserve off the coast of Santa Barbara so large we could run the well for over 60years.

But it needs a new Off Shore Derrick, Oil company ready to build it but the Tree Huggy Rich Fuckers that live on the beach say they dont want to SEE it out there window & dont want the possibility of an oil spill on THERE BEACH !

All the while they are gassing up there HUMMERS, LAND ROVERS, MBZ, BMW & whatever other Foregin or Oversize Luxury Boat they are driveing around.

There are many Oil reserves around the world that havent been tapped, its all a scare tactic to raise the price of Petrolium Products.

Ever notice the price of Liquid Petrolium products goes up.... But hard products such as Plastics, Foam Rubber, and the like dont really skyrocket ??

I gotta be honest, if I lived near the shore, I wouldn't want an oil rig out my window either. However, unlike some of those rich fuckers with their Hummers you talk about, ya gotta walk the walk to hold credibility. My house is wedged in a valley smack in between a black smoke belching old coal plant and a nuclear plant. Fun shit. I'm willing to turn my lights off in the room, insulate my house better, look into getting a solar array for my house, anything to not only lower my energy costs, but to reduce the need for those plants.
Scare tactic or not, even if the oil reserves are out there, the common man will never own them. It will ALWAYS be large corporations and large government. None of us will benefit in the long run no matter how many are tapped. So, either way, whether you believe it's the oil companies holding out, or if you believe the supply really is dwindling, it does us no good. Best thing I can think up to do is reduce my use, and give the oil companies as little of my money as I have to. I no longer drive my van every day and trailer my drag car to the track. Instead, I'll drive my little old Camry every day and save some gas money to run my drag car on the weekends. I learned to adapt, and like it or not, most people will need to do the same eventually. It has nothing to do with the environmentalists and such, it has to do with big business and big government fucking the common man.

I Drag
05-20-2008, 10:34 AM
Ah forget it. I'm not here to make enemies. Desoto: lets have a cold one together when the incoming starts.

Wild Turkey
05-20-2008, 10:49 AM
OIL
We'll be paying more for oil until we start using less. Even if we could start pumping oil out of a new field (like Alaska) today we can't produce enough to make a big dent in the price.

If we'd do something about traffic jams and similar waste we could have a bigger impact than any new field.

Steel
China and other countries are building things like crazy and are buying our scrap steel, copper, etc and driving the prices up, just like we're driving the prices of oil/gas up.

RE "the war" driving metal prices up: We're not loseing Liberty Ships, fighter planes and tanks by the dozens every week. The materiel losses in this war have a minimal impact on steel prices unlike the war's impact on the dollar.

Unions/EPA/Politicians
What these have in common is that too often we look at a "short term" solution. Look at what's happened to the carmakers when the costs of the contracts from the '50's started to hit. There's no new refineries or nuke power plants supposedly because of regulations designed to prevent problems in earlier plants without compromise.

So now what?
How many of us can tell what our favorite cadidate's position is on environmental issues?

How many of us don't vote, or vote against someone?

Are we part of the problem, or part of the solution?

Bort62
05-20-2008, 10:51 AM
The people on the right always blame the left, and the people on the left always blame the right.

I've come to the conclusion that government as a whole, left and right, is in bed w/ special interests and I don't really trust any of them to have my best interests in mind.

But I will say it has been the right who has been "in charge" the last 12 years, and this has all happened on their watch.

Doesn't prove it is their fault, but it is circumstantial evidence.

DE SOTO
05-20-2008, 10:51 AM
No Thats not what i was saying......

I was adressing that ther IS oil off the coast here that will supply MUCHO OIL for a looong time & the main reason its not being tapped is that SANTA BARBARA Big Money dosent want the Oil Derrick on ''THERE BACK YARD'' & that the Envornmentalist help due to the POSSIBILITY of Oil Spills in the Water.

I really dont care if Y'All dont believe it or find it on the computer, I work as an OIL PUMPING UNIT MECHANIC in the Ventura county area and the Reserve is there but wont be tapped due to Rich Pollitics & Green Partys alike.

Has nothing to do with the WORLD, But it does have to do with Oil in the U.S.

Like i said, they are at least a MILE off shore & there are 4~5 already.... So whats the big deal of 1 more if the Oil reserve will do the country good ?

Funny how you guys take the ""RICH HUMMER"" part & group it with the ""GREEEN PARTY"" Part so it says "" GREEN PARTY DRIVING HUMMERS"" ..........

But then i guess you never been to Santa Barbara, Cus there... IT could be true.....

I dont know why i even get into these threads :(

Pir8Darryl
05-20-2008, 10:51 AM
Ah forget it. I'm not here to make enemies. Desoto: lets have a cold one together when the incoming starts.

Last edited by I Drag : Today at 11:39 AM. Reason: Don't feel like arguing today Drag, that was the coolest post I'v seen in a long time! You rock my man!!!

jleavesl
05-20-2008, 11:00 AM
P8D is right, steel is going up because China is becoming more industrialized. In theory, I don't have a problem with no steel mills in the US, steelmaking and the like should be done by less sophisticated countries as the US gets more high-tech and knowledge intensive jobs. That is how we all move up.

Refineries are not being built because they are very expensive and take a long time to come on-line. Who would invest in processing a commodity that is rapidly disappearing and will continue to go up in price?

Umm, they are building a new one.

John

don-vee
05-20-2008, 11:05 AM
RE "the war" driving metal prices up: We're not loseing Liberty Ships, fighter planes and tanks by the dozens every week. The materiel losses in this war have a minimal impact on steel prices unlike the war's impact on the dollar.

It's not only the ships, planes, tanks, etc. It's the infrastructure involved. Sure, tons and tons of material does go into making bombs, missiles, and other munitions, but we are also setting up shop there, building bases, bridges, pipelines, communications. Takes tons of steel and countless miles of copper wire. It does add up. The impact on the dollar just multiplies everything.

notebooms
05-20-2008, 11:07 AM
The problem with the EPA and labor unions is that they don't work unless you stand for the same ethics everywhere.

For example:

1) EPA and Unions in U.S. Ethics we try to be proud of.

2) No EPA / Unions in China. Damn, really very little ethics and arguably some slave labor.

Because of the double standards, big business selects option #2 as it allows more profit. #1 gets fucked.

So-- either get rid of standard #1 or insist the same of standard #2. Otherwise, standard #2 crushes standard #1.

You know-- i believe this thread should stay open too. It's an important topic and it does apply to commodities key to hot rods.

-scott noteboom

Yea it's all the E.P.A. and labor unions falt. I don't wont to go political .But we need the E.P.A. and unions more now then ever.

Aman
05-20-2008, 11:14 AM
So...what do you want....Scrap to be .01 a pound? Then all that crap will sit there forever rusting away. Why not take advantage of it and get in the game. Scrap is at the highest prices ever and it actually causes a clean up effect here in the US. People are pulling out the eye sores and getting rid of them and making money doing it. Get a trailer and cruise the neighbor picking up refrigerators, stoves, and other appliances along with old lawn mowers and other junk. You might be suprised at how much money you can make in a day doing this. How about $200-$400 a day? I'll bet most people on here don't make that at their day job. I know I don't. Here we get $160 a ton for cars. I have an old 88 Suburban that weights in at 5900 lbs. That's $472.00 for about two hours work. Again...so what do you want?

don-vee
05-20-2008, 11:14 AM
And yeah, maybe the political threads do deserve to get closed when they veer too far off course. I know we need to talk about certain political, environmental, governmental, and social issues on here as they impact on our hobby, but sometimes it does get a bit old. I know I sincerely doubt I am ever going to change anyone's point of view on here, and I sincerely doubt anyone will change mine. I like the conversation to stop just short of hurting anyone or pissing anyone off, at least here on the HAMB. Frankly, the opinions I have rarely come up when I'm at the drags, at a show, or watching the mud slinging at the Showdown, and I kinda don't mind it staying that way. I look at myself as so radically far left liberal I'm off the chart, but I'm sure there are some left-wing dudes out there who would shit on me for partaking in some of my hobbies. So, fuck it, I'll get back to wrenching, and I'll keep doing what I do, because I know I'll never agree with every person on here, except for the reason we're all here-the cars.

ray
05-20-2008, 11:21 AM
The problem with the EPA and labor unions is that they don't work unless you stand for the same ethics everywhere.

For example:

1) EPA and Unions in U.S. Ethics we try to be proud of.

2) No EPA / Unions in China. Damn, really very little ethics and arguably some slave labor.

Because of the double standards, big business selects option #2 as it allows more profit. #1 gets fucked.

So-- either get rid of standard #1 or insist the same of standard #2. Otherwise, standard #2 crushes standard #1.

You know-- i believe this thread should stay open too. It's an important topic and it does apply to commodities key to hot rods.

-scott noteboom

excellent point from someone who's opinions i often disagree with.

notebooms
05-20-2008, 11:22 AM
i see your point.

that said, i suppose im politically ranting more to vent frustrations than anything. the hamb shouldnt be here for that bullshit.

i still think we're in a pretty tough spot though.... :p

-scott noteboom


And yeah, maybe the political threads do deserve to get closed when they veer too far off course. I know we need to talk about certain political, environmental, governmental, and social issues on here as they impact on our hobby, but sometimes it does get a bit old. I know I sincerely doubt I am ever going to change anyone's point of view on here, and I sincerely doubt anyone will change mine. I like the conversation to stop just short of hurting anyone or pissing anyone off, at least here on the HAMB. Frankly, the opinions I have rarely come up when I'm at the drags, at a show, or watching the mud slinging at the Showdown, and I kinda don't mind it staying that way. I look at myself as so radically far left liberal I'm off the chart, but I'm sure there are some left-wing dudes out there who would shit on me for partaking in some of my hobbies. So, fuck it, I'll get back to wrenching, and I'll keep doing what I do, because I know I'll never agree with every person on here, except for the reason we're all here-the cars.

don-vee
05-20-2008, 11:25 AM
Agreed, we definitely are in a tough spot. So, like I said, I am adapting, doing what I can do. Driving a more efficient car, driving less than I used to, and cashing in on some of the scrap metal prices. Might as well, nothing else I can do right now.

ray
05-20-2008, 11:31 AM
So...what do you want....Scrap to be .01 a pound? Then all that crap will sit there forever rusting away. Why not take advantage of it and get in the game. Scrap is at the highest prices ever and it actually causes a clean up effect here in the US. People are pulling out the eye sores and getting rid of them and making money doing it. Get a trailer and cruise the neighbor picking up refrigerators, stoves, and other appliances along with old lawn mowers and other junk. You might be suprised at how much money you can make in a day doing this. How about $200-$400 a day? I'll bet most people on here don't make that at their day job. I know I don't. Here we get $160 a ton for cars. I have an old 88 Suburban that weights in at 5900 lbs. That's $472.00 for about two hours work. Again...so what do you want?

i agree, while it sucks as a hobbyist to see some of the old iron get crushed, but it's good for our awareness. all metal is valuable enough now that NONE should be thrown away. standard practice at my employer was for me do haul out about 50 pounds of stainless steel chips to the dumpster at the end of my shift everyday, until i pointed out they were throwing away a significant amount of money. they now have more recycling bins for metal waste.

you want to hear a crazy prediction? i bet in the future we will be mining our old landfills for all the recyclable stuff we threw away in years past, metals, plastics etc.

there, i helped steer it back on topic and a little less political.:D

patrick2965
05-20-2008, 11:32 AM
One more problem with our scrap going over there---they are receiving some of the finest high nickel cast iron and low sulfur steel. What does an old popper John Deere Model B weigh? Do you think they would have allowed low quality cast to be used during production?
In the past 10 years, I've welded many driveshafts made of newer alloy steel, and have been choked by fumes coming out of the parent metal, stinking sulphur. It doesn't happen with older steel
It makes me f'n mad that we are losing our jobs and paying the folks overseas.

ironfly28
05-20-2008, 11:41 AM
We've contracted w/ Russia to produce nearly all our militarys small arms ammunition...
That's interesting, didn't they used to be our ENEMY? remember what happened to Rome when they sent their weapons to be made by the Barbarians?

bill wallace
05-20-2008, 11:46 AM
One of the advantages of a long time is (if you want)&( im 69 years old) having the perspective of the past. Before ww2 the US was very much an island unto itself but after the war we emerged as the most powerful & influential country in the world & realized that in our best intrest & the worlds it was important to invest the rest of the world in our way of life & governance. Steel,oil,materials of all sorts along with even the most basic reqirements for life became comodities traded on the world stage. It should be no supprise to any one then that as these things are used by more & more people around the globe that the value of these would increase & the ability to purchase them would decrease the value of the currancy to purchase them. No amount of blaming the government, big corporations , lobour unions, or groups of people with special intrests such as the envioument or park land will serve any real soulution to the changes in or lives. This subject is germaine to the car hobby especially & most of us have such an intrest in the very life of these things. We cant predict what the future holds for this hobby but I can look at the past & when we have had ressesions, gasoline shortages, even the great deppression- people continued to build cars for a hobby & enjoy the satisfaction that it brings. bill wallace

bigolds
05-20-2008, 11:53 AM
The Chinese lack the technical expertiese and infrastructure to mine iron ore and process it into steel.

The Americans have the expertiese and infrastructure, but the EPA wont allow expanded mining, and the labor unions wont let the workers work for less than $38/hr.

The Chinese sell us a boatload of overpriced crap, and then fill the boats up with scrap steel for the return voyage.

It's absolutely amazing how simple it is to mine iron ore and smelt it into metal, but the gubberment, the trade unions, and the greenie-weenies wont have it.
So instead our "leaders" sell our souls out to a foreign power, and sleep well at night knowing their protected by their golden parachutes.

The exact same thing[s] could be said about oil/gasoline....
We got it, but we cant get it cuz the tree-huggers, the gooberment, and the unions wont allow us to drill for it.

The EPA, the sierra club, and the greenie-weenies wont let us build a new refinery because it might hurt the feelings of some species of cock-roach... And if we hurt their feelings, they might alter their breeding habbits... And if they alter their breeding habbits, they might become endangered!

The lobbiests for big oil like it the way it is because if we [average joe] did something to drive down the prices, Exxon-Mobil wouldn't have a $100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.00 proffit this month.

They want it, so they sell us a load of crap, and use the proffits to pull the rug out from under us.

The political leadership dont give a rats ass cuz they got their golden parachute.

The common man suffers.

Yeah that's it in a nutshell!!!!! HaHa!!!

bigolds
05-20-2008, 11:56 AM
Oh yeah...a buddy of mine is takin advantage of the price though. He's buyin' up every piece of old junk he can find and takin it to the scrap yard (not good old junk). He's been makin a killin' for very little effort!!!!

I Drag
05-20-2008, 12:01 PM
Well you know P8D, I look at it this way:

I do happen to know a lot about economics, and I do believe in the evidence supporting the "Peak Oil" theory. But I also know that I am unlikely to reverse anyone else's beliefs, even if I consider them unfounded. And at my age, why should I try? Believe what ya'll like.

I think the majority of the anger I read on here is due to the effect of oil prices on hot rodding. It's different now. But I'm a hot rodder, so why argue?

Aint gonna matter when the missiles begin rainin' down on me anyway. Gonna get out the lawn chairs and pop a cold one. Got extra lawn chairs.

Rossco
05-20-2008, 12:01 PM
I have a question / food for thought. How much money do you think we as tax payers have pumped into forgein nations for economic development, in hopes of getting some type of win/win agreement in the future?

Excample: We went to Iraq and removed a dictatorship. We have since tried to maintain stability and rebuild the country's economic structure, but what benifits have we seen? Gas prices are going up, inflation is up, and the dollar is down? The US is trying to rebuild the oil industry in there , but with no seen results? Scrap steel is on the rise because american industrie is not the main consumer. We are not at the prodution levels we once were cause a lot of commodities are imported, due to it being cheaper?

Who created the problem? Us or Corperation heads?

If you could make more money moving a prodution line over sea's would you if it was your choice, or would you have the personal ethic to hold those jobs here to support your fellow citizens? Greed?

Everyone can point fingers, does it make it right? Kinda brings to mind a old saying " He who has the gold, makes the rules"

Old wolf
05-20-2008, 12:03 PM
The main reasons that scrap is so high is that it is easier and cheaper to melt scrap than make new steel. The law of supply and demand also. The american dollar is weak and we have the supply and the chinese have the dollars. The shipping dont really cost them that much because if they dont haul something back they would still have the cost of returning with a emtpy ship. Also we have a chinese owned steel mill here in northeast ark named NUCOR YAMATO. They contrubute a lot to the economy of that area especially since the air base a blytheville ark closed. A friend works there he is a crain operator and they paid him over $80,000.oo last year and very little of his work was overtime and they are not union. There is another mill that makes railroad steel at newport ark.I have found out that lots of times you get to thinking that you are absolutly sure that someting is a certan fact and later learn that it wasnt that way after all. A wise man can change his mind a fool never does. I still aint gonna crush my cars. OldWolf:confused:

POTPIE
05-20-2008, 12:10 PM
I Just Checked In The Bay Area Ca . 10 To 12 Cents A Pound Scrap Metal.

oilslinger53
05-20-2008, 12:27 PM
war...... they need copper for bullets and steel for bombs. thats my guess.scrap always seems to go up during wartime

Kustomkarma
05-20-2008, 12:32 PM
A lot of this is about adapting. I'm stockpiling any parts that I think I might need, seeing as how they won't be available forever. I'm keeping the cars I like and trying to make connections to find more people that are like minded. I'm selling off whatever junk metal I have while the prices are high, using less energy in my home, driving my little pickup to work, combining trips, trying to find American products to buy, and staying active in local politics as best I can. I try to promote the idea that we as a country should try to keep as much industry here as possible ... and in case all this fails I build custom bicycles too. (Yes, my vintage Schwinns were made in Chicago and my Trek road bike was made in Wisconsin.):D

sir
05-20-2008, 12:54 PM
...has anyone used the crap steel we are getting back from china/korea?? It's impure,has hard spots too much carbon,poor to weld on,...the list goes on and on, we GIVE them 1st rate AMERICAN steel and they SELL us 3rd rate steel at 3-x it's worth, WASSUP WIT DAT!!!!! (end of rant)

55 dude
05-20-2008, 01:26 PM
just want to thank all that have responded to this thread as it shows that we are all capable of speaking out,just need to figure out where and when.

slammed
05-20-2008, 01:36 PM
Control the flow of oil, information, money, law's, ect. you control it all. Greed is just a by-product. Wake up to the fact, we have been "subject's'" for some time now. Look at the 'leader's" of this land right now. De-industrialization of America is the agenda. Scrap late model's, save the old stuff when you can. And pray, everday.

FoMoCoPower
05-20-2008, 01:56 PM
I dunno where you scrap cars at,but by me cars are worth less in scrap weight then just a load of metal.

Which is BS because before they crush the cars they let them sit in the U-Pull-It yard for a month and sell what they can off of them.

J Man
05-20-2008, 05:41 PM
The american foundry and steel industry shrank significantly in the 70s and 80s. It's held fairly steady ever since during a period when the rest of the economy grew. Certainly not a healthy industry by any means, and somebody from PA ought to know about the decline of "big steel"

The domestic casting industry has had a shift, we tend to produce higher value, higher technology castings. Near net shape methods like investment casting are compensating for the low value casting & steel refining that's going across the border. Unfortunately, those low value castings are really the foundation of manufacturing might, and they tend to employ alot of people.

I am not fro PA, lived there 5 years working in a staping plant. 1/2 the people I worked with either lost their job at the mill or had a relitave that last their job. There are 3 still going making various items and last I heard they were even hiring. My neughbor in PA got a job at one shortly before I left.

As far as I foundry I can only speak for a GM one since that is where I work. After GM decided to close the stamping plant I worked at I transfered to the foundry. GM is investing in their plants here in the USA. One is in process of closing, in NY, but the work is being moved to the other plants I mentioned above. The people working there will either be able to retire, take a buy ouy or transfer to another plant.

The foundry I work at we are loosing some work. The 3.8 v6, 8.1 V8 and the I4/I5 motors withing the next couple of years. But at the same time they are bringing in work. The Druamax diesel motors were brought to us from a non GM plant in Germany. We were given a aluminum motor (don't remember size) that will be going in the new crossovers and the small Caddys. We also were just given a new 4 cyl that will be 2 versions of the same motor.

Like I said I can only speak for GM but they are investing in their plants here in the USA. They are also investing into other plants as well to build transmissions and a couple assembly plants to retool them for new and fuel efficant cars.

As far as small castings I cans say much. I do know there is a small place in Ft Wayne, IN but I do not know what they make there.

RJP
05-20-2008, 06:08 PM
one way to stop rising oil costs at the pump is to make the comodities traders play with real money instead of a margin call. Price on a barrel would drop 40 % overnight. Think silver back in the 80's. Most driving up the price can't play without the margin system.

Rossco
05-20-2008, 06:13 PM
war...... they need copper for bullets and steel for bombs. thats my guess.scrap always seems to go up during wartime

Wrong, different type of warfare now with different munition types. Yes cooper and steel are still used but if you knew what stock piles and what reserve buffers we have in place the impact generated by warfare is minimal. Most ore from the US is ending up over seas.

Funny little fact China's military has tripled over the 22 years, what do you think most of there ships/ subs and aircraft are made from. Yes they have there own mining there, but not the mills to produce as high of quality metals.

Most munitions used today are composite's " mixture of alloys, ceramics, and polymers"

There is still a lot of commerical growth going on here is the US also, I mean hell you cant go 3 blocks here in Cali with out seeing another walgreens or longs drug being built.

I have a question how much does it actually cost to recycle a cubic ton of steel? Not the buying price the process price??

vonpahrkur
05-20-2008, 06:45 PM
...has anyone used the crap steel we are getting back from china/korea?? It's impure,has hard spots too much carbon,poor to weld on,...the list goes on and on, we GIVE them 1st rate AMERICAN steel and they SELL us 3rd rate steel at 3-x it's worth, WASSUP WIT DAT!!!!! (end of rant)
YES, see: every tool that Harbor Freight Tools sells! :)
Buy American! The tools are usually higher quality and will last!

vonpahrkur
05-20-2008, 06:52 PM
No Thats not what i was saying......

I was adressing that ther IS oil off the coast here that will supply MUCHO OIL for a looong time & the main reason its not being tapped is that SANTA BARBARA Big Money dosent want the Oil Derrick on ''THERE BACK YARD'' & that the Envornmentalist help due to the POSSIBILITY of Oil Spills in the Water.

I really dont care if Y'All dont believe it or find it on the computer, I work as an OIL PUMPING UNIT MECHANIC in the Ventura county area and the Reserve is there but wont be tapped due to Rich Pollitics & Green Partys alike.

Has nothing to do with the WORLD, But it does have to do with Oil in the U.S.

Like i said, they are at least a MILE off shore & there are 4~5 already.... So whats the big deal of 1 more if the Oil reserve will do the country good ?

Funny how you guys take the ""RICH HUMMER"" part & group it with the ""GREEEN PARTY"" Part so it says "" GREEN PARTY DRIVING HUMMERS"" ..........

But then i guess you never been to Santa Barbara, Cus there... IT could be true.....

I dont know why i even get into these threads :(
Rick is Exactly Right , My dad worked in the Oil/Natural Gas industry for thirty years and everytime they tried to do anything in Santa Barbara County there were big roadblocks because of the tree-hugging people in power there.

As far as us running out of oil? first of all the US has more than doubled in population in the last 30 years yet our oil consumption is the same as it was then due to energy efficiency. Furthemore, My dad also consulted for the Naval Oil Reserves over near Taft and trust me were not running out anytime soon!

rustynewyorker
05-20-2008, 07:20 PM
The steel industry here sure isn't what it used to be. Into the 40s we had mills capable of casting giant single piece steam locomotive frames - the frame and the cylinder saddle was one huge piece. So you're talking a cast piece that's a good 10 feet wide at the widest point and 40, 50 feet long in some cases, with bores for cylinders in one section, cavities for axle bearings to ride, and so on.

Not that long ago (maybe 10 years now) some folks discussed recreating locomotives from the blueprints that no single example remains existing because all were scrapped long ago. The consensus was for anything beyond a small locomotive, the frame at the least would have to be cast somewhere overseas - we no longer have the capacity or technology to cast large, high-quality parts of that nature anymore.

Meanwhile, China built steam locomotives into the early 1990s, and it's not that they can't build them any longer, it's just that the diesel finally became cheap enough for them to purchase to replace the steam engines.

Rossco
05-20-2008, 07:35 PM
Not that long ago (maybe 10 years now) some folks discussed recreating locomotives from the blueprints that no single example remains existing because all were scrapped long ago. The consensus was for anything beyond a small locomotive, the frame at the least would have to be cast somewhere overseas - we no longer have the capacity or technology to cast large, high-quality parts of that nature anymore.



The capacity maybe, technology..no. Its not the technology that hinders us, its the cost to stand up a production line and the tooling and material required. We refined the process, produced it and did it the best. Doing it again wouldnt be hard, if you could afford it. The problem that is wrong with 80% of companys today is the first question they ask is whats the ROI "Return on investment" Nobody in that position is going to pump that kind of funds into a process like that when he can do it at a fraction of the cost somewhere else, and reap the rewards. How do you fix it, remove that mind set.

Pir8Darryl
05-20-2008, 07:53 PM
Not that long ago (maybe 10 years now) some folks discussed recreating locomotives from the blueprints that no single example remains existing because all were scrapped long ago. The consensus was for anything beyond a small locomotive, the frame at the least would have to be cast somewhere overseas - we no longer have the capacity or technology to cast large, high-quality parts of that nature anymore.


RustyNY,
I'm the director of the Ohio Valley chapter of the National Steam Enthusiast Club. I'm also a certified steam engineer. [only about 300 of us in the country]

I was involved with the "reproduction project" of a Northern type 4-8-4.
Actually, it was the other way around. The only foundaries that were capable of casting the frame were American outfits. The prime candidate was a ship foundry in Va., but they had their hands full with current orders. We then sought foreign foundries to cast the frame, but quickly discovered they [chinese] lacked the technical expertiese to meet the quality standards that we [americans] had mastered in the 1930's.

The project was put on the back burner untill about 8 years ago when China decided to retire their steam fleet, and we decided to purchase 4 chinese built Quin Jinzhou 2-8-2 passenger/freight steam locomotives and have them rebuilt to meet U.S. transportation standards. The Q-Z locomotive works [in china] was contracted to handle the rebuilds.... And that has been a disaster!!!

Tho the chinese 2-8-2's were essentially coppies of 1930's model Baldwin G.P. freight steam models, the quality and construction was abismal! Almost every piece on them had cracks and flaws, poorly fitted parts, and downright dangerous problems.

To date, only 2 of them have been imported. A 3rd is in the works. The 4th may be scrapped entirely because of the "chinese" quality and safety problems.

The general consensus among club members is that we probably should have waited and built american instead of importing.

Pir8Darryl
05-20-2008, 08:01 PM
If ANYONE doubts that American quality and technology is not still alive and well, consider the following...

The Toyota plants in Ky, In, Tn, and Tx are running full speed 24-7.
The Subaru plant in In, is adding a 3rd shift and weekend overtime.
Same story at the Nissan plant in Ohio.

These are considered some of the highest quality automobiles in the world, but 60% of the cars mnufactured at these plants are exported to other countries.

Tho the Japanese are supposed to be the worlds "electronics guru's", every computer in Japan [worldwide for that matter] is built around American technology, using American manufactured components, and running 100% american developed software,,, without exception!

The Chairman of Toyota Motors recently said:
"American workers are some of the best on the planet. They are smart, hard working, and creative. If there is a problem with a product or procedure, they are not afraid to bring it to the attention of management, and work with management to solve the problem. Some of our best ideas over the past 20 years have come from the minds of regular assembly line workers in our American assembly plants. I am very proud of our American work force."

In the peoples republic of China, the #1 most desired luxury item is a Buick made in America, tho almost all of China's emerging middle class has had to settle for a Chinese made copy of an American Buick, complete with MPH on the speedo, and english lettering on the dash-board switches.

Not a German BMW or Mercedes...
Not a British Bently or Jaguar...

China has sought to buy into the american dream by emulating american culture right down to beer and baseball games... Not the "world sport" of soccer... Infact, the best known athlete in China is playing on an AMERICAN Basketball team!!!!!

They have bought [and stolen] our technology, only to back-engineer it, copy it with a .30 cent per hour workforce, and sell it worldwide at firesale prices...... Only they have NEVER figured out how to match our quality.

They have bought our junk, driving the price of scrap iron and steel thru the roof because they have not been able to figure out how to mine iron ore safely, productively, and cost effectively,,,, even tho they [china] sit on HUGE iron ore deposits.

They have developed their infrastructure around fossil fuel power plants because, even tho they call themselves a superpower, they lack the technical expertiese to build neuclear powerplants, and under the old comunist regeims, imported inferior [deadly] technology from russia. [just ask them about Chernobyl http://www.frybrid.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif ]

Pretty soon, we, as Americans, are going to have to wake up and take our country back from those in Washington who have sought to push us down for their own financial and political gain.

Untill that happens, I wont worry too much about Japan and China, because any way you look at it, we are still the greatest nation the world has ever seen!<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

rustyford40
05-20-2008, 08:08 PM
This is a good thread it makes you think. I don't agree with most of what I have read. I am a union man and feel its corporate greed that is to blame.I worked for a steel shop that was told by US steel it was not big enough to buy steel from then.We started buying steel with outher shops around the area from korea and japan.

rickkane
05-20-2008, 08:16 PM
I was meeting with a steel fabricator today to dscuss a contract for an upcoming building project. It's a large contract, several thousand tons. They told me, contrary to popular belief,that the American steel industry is coming back. It's mostly in the south, and much smaller mills than before, but far more efficient than the old mills. I grew up in youngstown, Ohio and worked in the mills along with my Dad. Given the inefficiency of those old plants and the abuses of the union, there was no way that industry was going to survive. We are going to produce approximately 130 million tons of steel this year, with 20 million tons being exported to overseas markets. In 5 yrs they expect production to exceed any previous years totals, even back in the 60's. They are gearing up to start fabricating portions of a new stainless mill being built. They have 7 fabricating plants and they can only handle a portion of this contract because its massive.

rustyford40
05-20-2008, 08:23 PM
I was meeting with a steel fabricator today to dscuss a contract for an upcoming building project. It's a large contract, several thousand tons. They told me, contrary to popular belief,that the American steel industry is coming back. It's mostly in the south, and much smaller mills than before, but far more efficient than the old mills. I grew up in youngstown, Ohio and worked in the mills along with my Dad. Given the inefficiency of those old plants and the abuses of the union, there was no way that industry was going to survive. We are going to produce approximately 130 million tons of steel this year, with 20 million tons being exported to overseas markets. In 5 yrs they expect production to exceed any previous years totals, even back in the 60's. They are gearing up to start fabricating portions of a new stainless mill being built. They have 7 fabricating plants and they can only handle a portion of this contract because its massive.
This would be great. The shop I worked for shut down along with most of the outhers.

finn
05-20-2008, 08:31 PM
As to the US steel Industry and "no iron ore mines in the US, I read in the Marquette (Michigan) Mining Journal that Cleveland Cliffs mining, which operates the Iron Mines in Upper Michigan had record profits in 2007.

Also, we're finding that with the devaluation of the dollar, the US is now being looked at as a low cost producer of Auto Parts!

Alan

Squablow
05-20-2008, 08:38 PM
The main reasons that scrap is so high is that it is easier and cheaper to melt scrap than make new steel. The law of supply and demand also. The american dollar is weak and we have the supply and the chinese have the dollars. The shipping dont really cost them that much because if they dont haul something back they would still have the cost of returning with a emtpy ship. ...

I think that's most of it.

I'm sure some of us would love to believe in some kind of worldwide conspiracy theory in which we get screwed, but I think it's mostly simple economics.

1. It's cheap to remelt scrap steel compared to smelting iron ore.

2. Increased fuel cost has increased the cost of mining, which makes scrap iron more attractive.

3. A weakened US dollar makes US exports of scrap much more attractive to foreign buyers.

4. Return-trips on foreign shipping vessels are often discounted since there are more imports coming to the US than there are exports. So there is the opportunity for cheap shipping of raw and processed materials.

5. There have been advancements in the last 20 years or so in recycling technology, making recycling metals more profitable. Like someone mentioned, there are even ways to make use of the "soft materials" in shredded car bodies, stuff like plastic, vinyl and foam.


All these things came together at the right time to make scrap metals more valueable. It's been good for me, I get paid real money to bring in picked-over car bodies and misc. junk when I'm done saving all the valueable parts off of them. I'm not afraid to jump on buying parts cars anymore since I know I can recoup much of my purchase price just on the steel that's left over.

junk yard kid
05-20-2008, 08:50 PM
watch the movie zietgeist at zietgeistmovie.com dont get pissed at me though if it pisses you off

rickkane
05-20-2008, 08:56 PM
I've talked with several steel fabricators in the last few weeks and all of them had one common problem. They were forced to get more efficient, doing more with less people, because they cant find help. I hear it from everybody. They cant find welders, fitters, drill press operators etc. One company bought a machine to use on their beam line that does nothing but full pen welds. It takes approx 1 hour to set it up for each beam, then it takes approx 1 hour to do the welding. It takes a welder 8 hrs to do the same operation. They would use humans if they could get them but they can't so they have to go to machines. I think its time in this country that we realize that not every kid is college material and start a real apprenticeship program in high schools. It's stupidity to think a kid is better off going out and getting a teaching degree and make 35k a yr, as opposed to becoming a painter or a welder or a mechanic and make 50k +.

toddc
05-20-2008, 09:14 PM
The Chinese are not just buying scrap. They are buying all the ore they can get out of Australia ( we have HEAPS ). They would buy more, but we can't dig it out any faster. There is no conspiracy ~ they have a BILLION people, most of whom have been living in an 18th century environment. Now they want to live like us. Can't say I blame them.
The quality of their products is poor - for the moment. Not that long ago Japanese stuff was crap ( help me out here old-er guys :) ) but now its right up with the best in the world.

Re; trading oil on margin. Was it not trading on margin that caused The Great Depression:eek:?

Its all well and good to blame big business ( and some of them sure deserve it ) but its WE THE PEOPLE who buy this crap at the lowest possible price. Equal blame lies with the illiterate slobs who shop at the $2 store.

garyv
05-20-2008, 09:52 PM
one way to stop rising oil costs at the pump is to make the comodities traders play with real money instead of a margin call. Price on a barrel would drop 40 % overnight. Think silver back in the 80's. Most driving up the price can't play without the margin system.

Exactly, but the government hasn't given any indication that it is at all concerned about the price of oil.

Isn't it ironic that the silver crash in 1980 was a result of the Hunt brothers, Texas oil tycoons, trying to corner the market.

China can afford to pay high prices for resources (including scrap), look at the balance of trade figures. There are lots of places to blame, consumers for accepting a cheap foreign made product, manufacturers for trying to increase profits (it's been rumored that Wal-Mart told their suppliers to move manufacturing to China), all of those Harvard and Yale MBA's who think profits are more easily made by closing a business down and selling it off than by actually running the business. I place a lot of blame on the whole Wall Street mentality that demands higher and higher profits and values a company only if it manages to meet the Wall Street analyists' projections.

gary

desertratrodder
05-20-2008, 10:02 PM
There are a few reasons for high prices, but the main one is that India and China, which each have over 1 billion people, are experiencing their own Industrial Revolutions.

Of course, outside $$ from the US, and other countries, in the form of outsourced jobs, manufacturing, etc has helped them along.

India and China are now building cars, soon to come to the US if they can meet the standards. They are building cities, bridges, and dams as well.

The US dollar is falling daily, so it is attractive for foreign investors to buy Oil, steel, and everything else right now. Basically it is money in the bank right now.

Our local steel processors do not have enough product to fill their orders, so the price keeps going higher. They cut their margins so they don't go under.
the scrap business is at a triple your $$ standard, but they are going to double just to get the material.
It is not finished going up. I have predictions from my buyers that would make your head spin.

ironbuyer
05-20-2008, 10:08 PM
The latest shredders can shred and sort every piece of a car for recycling. Metal, glass, rubber, copper, aluminum, etc. are all recovered. They even have found uses for the "fluff", the carpet, cloth, padding that comes out. Nothing is wasted..

Brian

I am 4th generation in the scrap business. Thanks for clearing this up for the ignorant who feel they need to hear themselves rattle!

ironbuyer
05-20-2008, 10:13 PM
...

Great response!

ironbuyer
05-20-2008, 10:25 PM
There are a few reasons for high prices, but the main one is that India and China, which each have over 1 billion people, are experiencing their own Industrial Revolutions.

Of course, outside $$ from the US, and other countries, in the form of outsourced jobs, manufacturing, etc has helped them along.

India and China are now building cars, soon to come to the US if they can meet the standards. They are building cities, bridges, and dams as well.

The US dollar is falling daily, so it is attractive for foreign investors to buy Oil, steel, and everything else right now. Basically it is money in the bank right now.

Our local steel processors do not have enough product to fill their orders, so the price keeps going higher. They cut their margins so they don't go under.
the scrap business is at a triple your $$ standard, but they are going to double just to get the material.
It is not finished going up. I have predictions from my buyers that would make your head spin.

Are you in the business?
Steve Glucoft

tokyo
05-20-2008, 10:33 PM
I think its time in this country that we realize that not every kid is college material and start a real apprenticeship program in high schools. It's stupidity to think a kid is better off going out and getting a teaching degree and make 35k a yr, as opposed to becoming a painter or a welder or a mechanic and make 50k +.

I like that idea. I see it everyday. Kids all messed up. they think a new car design is really cool, but when you put a wrench in their hand, they look at you like your insane.

tok

Elvisaurusrex
05-20-2008, 10:50 PM
13 years, I spend more time welding than doing homework. I figure I'd rather be spending my time and effort getting better and better at what I'm hoping to do for a living than be learning about some bogus way to write a 15 page expository essay. I can write already... I'd rather be doing something in life that I'm happy with unlike what my own folks did and getting degrees that they didn't even use for their desk jobs. If it pays less than having some stupid technical degree like their training us for, than I'm fine with that. In 20 years I hope there are still some people doing something for a trade..
School IS important, just not interesting.. It's like stocks.. Some people get into it but most probably don't..

rustynewyorker
05-21-2008, 12:26 AM
RustyNY,
I'm the director of the Ohio Valley chapter of the National Steam Enthusiast Club. I'm also a certified steam engineer. [only about 300 of us in the country]

I was involved with the "reproduction project" of a Northern type 4-8-4.
Actually, it was the other way around. The only foundaries that were capable of casting the frame were American outfits. The prime candidate was a ship foundry in Va., but they had their hands full with current orders. We then sought foreign foundries to cast the frame, but quickly discovered they [chinese] lacked the technical expertiese to meet the quality standards that we [americans] had mastered in the 1930's.

The project was put on the back burner untill about 8 years ago when China decided to retire their steam fleet, and we decided to purchase 4 chinese built Quin Jinzhou 2-8-2 passenger/freight steam locomotives and have them rebuilt to meet U.S. transportation standards. The Q-Z locomotive works [in china] was contracted to handle the rebuilds.... And that has been a disaster!!!

Tho the chinese 2-8-2's were essentially coppies of 1930's model Baldwin G.P. freight steam models, the quality and construction was abismal! Almost every piece on them had cracks and flaws, poorly fitted parts, and downright dangerous problems.

To date, only 2 of them have been imported. A 3rd is in the works. The 4th may be scrapped entirely because of the "chinese" quality and safety problems.

The general consensus among club members is that we probably should have waited and built american instead of importing.


Rode behind one. Knox & Kane might have a deal on one, cheap, if the insurance ever settles. Slightly crispy, but the running gear (wheels, etc) might be usable. That I know of, the locomotives exported new about the end of production never had reported problems of that nature. Rebuilds with now obsolete parts, you might get the stuff that wasn't quite good enough to use before, but is all they have left now -

R.C.
05-21-2008, 12:38 AM
well this what I do to feed the family,
Most everything is going to China, iron ,copper,and brass. The reason Cars bring more money than just plain iron is that they shred the cars up and take out all the alum. copper and brass.

I hope this helps????

ditz
05-21-2008, 01:41 AM
I call BS on the union issue. I have been in the work force for 40 years and have never been a union member. There is no union plant that is run by a union. Management makes the decisions and options to give the union worker what management deems fair. The unions seem to get the blame when it is the management that has no balls and makes many poor decisions. Big money is running this country. Our government representitives, both legislative and executive passing laws to bennefit big money and to hell with the working man. Our government is allowing hundreds of thousands of good paying jobs to leave this country to bennefit big money. We won WWII because of our industry which quickly tooled up a fantastic "War Machine". This War Machine no longer exists and if we get into a real war we are in deep doo doo. Bush keeps the fear level up and talks about securing our country but he allows, no encourages, our war machine to move to Mexico and China. I fear that we have some very hard times coming in the next few years. I hope that our country and government survives it in the form it used to be. In addition to fearring terrorist , we had better fear our government. Our brilliant forefathers wrote the constitution to constrain government because they feared government. I hope that we have not lost that lesson.

Sorry for the rambling rant

hotrodlolita
05-21-2008, 02:13 AM
What is this some kind of environmental discussion?

next thing you know crazy old coots are going to be discussing granola and what brand of soy milk you guys eat in the morning hahahhahaha hahah ahah a
just kidding

gulfwarsubvet
05-21-2008, 06:53 AM
If ANYONE doubts that American quality and technology is not still alive and well, consider the following...

They have developed their infrastructure around fossil fuel power plants because, even tho they call themselves a superpower, they lack the technical expertiese to build neuclear powerplants, and under the old comunist regeims, imported inferior [deadly] technology from russia. [just ask them about Chernobyl http://www.frybrid.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif ]

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China has built 6 new nuclear plants since the 1990s.
They are planning to build a lot more.
They use some Russian designs (not like Chernobyl) as well as French (industry standard) and Canadian (very safe) plant designs.
They also have several nuclear submarines, including at least 2 ballistic missile subs.
In certain aspects they have a lot more technology than you think.
By the way the new designs, planning on being used in the building of new nuclear plants, in the US are primarily European.

Even though it's not said often, they (China) militarily, are one of our worst fears due to sheer manpower and technology.

I spent 8 years on 2 nuclear subs and currently am an Operator at a Nuclear Power plant but what do I know?