My wife's new '51 chevy & TECH QUESTIONS!

[Ryan]

Went to St. Louis to pick up my wife's new '51. It isn't nearly as nice as looks in the images, but it was cheap and I think I did ok.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/HAMB/mcar.jpg

My first job is to do the wheels/tires and stance. Plans are to get about 4" lower out back and 3" lower up front - all over black steel wheels wrapped in white walls... The front is easy, but I can't figure the rear. The builder located the rear springs on the axle is an odd manner. Check it:

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/HAMB/rear1.jpg

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/HAMB/rear2.jpg

Ever seen anything like that??? Is that a late model setup of some kind? I have no idea what the rear is out of.

And finally... The car has a 350/350 setup that runs great. I even got around 24mpg on the way home from St. Louis... I mean this thing cruises... The only thing is, it has a really rough idle when the car is in drive (rattles the shit out of the interior of the car)... Put it in neutral or park and it's fine. I've never had an automatic before and am not totally sure what is going on here... Any more ideas???

[Tman]

Nice! Glad she got it. I agree that rear is late model. Wunder if it is Camaro/Firebird???? I have seen it, not sure where. So, will Marci let me ride in it? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ELpolacko]

That appears to be a late seventies/early eighties Camaro/Firebird rear axle. You can use regular lowering blocks and U-bolts.

It is interesting that it looks as if the bolts are loose. There are suposed to be rubber spring isolators between the axle and the spring and the lower spring plate and the spring.

[Flat Ernie]

For the crummy idle in drive, check for vacuum leaks. They can drive you mad. One of the first things I'd check.

Looks good!
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[colorado51]

Looks nice!

The rear looks like a 70-81 Camaro/Firebird, those rears were pretty much a direct bolt in on the 49-54 Chevys. For my 51, I made lowering blocks with a 4 degree angle to take care of the problem that you see in your pic.

If you want, I can send you pics of the way it looks in my 51.

[Ryan]

Colorado, please send pics!!! Thanks man!

[Rocket88]

The outside looks great! As for the the rear end set up,well...yuck! All it needs is some new lowering blocks. Don't forget that the rear end will have to sit back about an inch and a half from the spring bolt that holds the leaf's together.That should compensate for that stock pivot deal they had in them for the torque tube.
As for the rough idle in gear, sounds like the converter is too tight!

[carkiller]

I have a near new set of dropped spindels, and brake componetes for sale. Cal

[Roothawg]

I have one of those in the garage. Mine was out of a 79 Camaro. Do most guys use those old saddles? I was planning on hacking mine. The springs are wider too. The stock Chevies were 1-3/4" wide. I think the Camaros were around 2".

[Roothawg]

Cal, how much if Ryan isn't interested?

[Donzie]

Looks like ya did all right. I know you've been looking for a while. Is she happy? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Roothawg]

Ryan, ya might have a broken flexplate.

[Hubbcat]

Go out and check the idle adjust,go a litle richer.

[carkiller]

Not ta jump Ryans post, Dropped spindels and all near new brake components, down ta the lug studs. (sindels, spindel knuckles, bushings, pins,bell crank, backing plates, new w/cyls, brakes and new hardware, bearings, seals, turned drums, new lug studs) Came off a six month old fresh rod. Going to mustang11. NOT Mine, Customers car. Shipped $400.00. Cal

[choprods]

That looks Reet man-ya can almost always buy a little car at that stage for less than it can be built for -hope she enjoys it!Does it have good electric wipers or the ol Vacuum weezers?gotta have a good defroster and wipers!!!!its a wimmen car! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Ryan]

I tried the idle... The thing is, the motor sounds fine at idle. I'm thinking maybe the converter is too tight too - what does that mean and how do I loosen it?


And yeah, I woke up this morning to an empty house as my old lady is out driving her car... That's so cute.

[Deuce Roadster]

[ QUOTE ]
I tried the idle... The thing is, the motor sounds fine at idle. I'm thinking maybe the converter is too tight too - what does that mean and how do I loosen it?


[/ QUOTE ]

Converters are "sized" to the weight of the vehicle. A Electra 225 will have a tighter one than say a Buick Skylark.

I suggest a aftermarket one.
Just like camshafts.....contact the manufacter of your choice and LISTEN to his recommendations.



http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Fat Hack]

Those rear spring to axle mounts look like 75-79 Nova units, but I can't be sure from the photo. 10 Bolt axle???

As for the rattling at idle, I think it's probably more of an NVH issue than a state-of-tune problem. The harmonics are being transfered through the chassis to the interior and making things vibrate. A change in motor mount design/materials could help out. (This is a common condition in cars with motor plates or solid mounts). What type of motor mounts and tranny mount is being used? Any rubber isolators in the design?

Sometimes the "fix" is as easy as adjusting the idle up or down slightly. Does it really push against the brake at an idle in gear? If so, try setting the idle lower.

Also look for contact in the exhaust manifold or pipes area. Some swaps position things pretty tight, and I've seen a few where there was slight contact between the exhaust manifold and part of the chassis at certain rpm levels or driving conditions...making an AWFULL NVH nightmare inside the car!

(NVH = Noise, Vibration, Harshness...engineers tackle these problems with new car designs)

Look for the any part of the motor or tranny, or exhaust system making contact with anything but the mounts. A dipstick hitting the steering shaft can transfer vibration, as well as some mechanical throttle linkage designs.

Look for "witness marks" in areas where motor/tranny fit is tight. You may find your problem in one of those locations.

Check out how the exhaust system is suspended from the chassis or body, too. Having the pipes mouted solidly to the frame or body with no rubber insulators can drive ya buggy, too.

(By the way, the car looks GREAT in the photos, and I like the wheels on it now!!)

[Hubbcat]

I had the exact same problem with my 51,when i replaced the motor with a new one a litle hotter,it run great until i hit it in drive it just died or stumled.i have a stock converter and hot camshaft and they dont realy match.
So go out(again)and check the vacum,my´n was a litle poor(co´s the cam)so i´d richen the idle as much a could she´s fine now.

[BigJim394]

Lets lighten up those pix a bit so everyone can see what is going on:


http://www.erols.com/j.decourcey/RCRE1.jpg

http://www.erols.com/j.decourcey/RCRE2.jpg

[Skate Fink]

[ QUOTE ]


(NVH = Noise, Vibration, Harshness...engineers tackle these problems with new car designs)



[/ QUOTE ]

Damn Hack......you're smart AS WELL as talented?? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Fat Hack]

Good job with the pics, BigJim!

Upon closer inspection, I don't think those are Nova spring mounts. They look like some backwoods copy of them, though! I'd want to re-do the spring-to-axle connection if it were me. Looks like it incorporates a wedge block to modify pinion angle. Pinion angle can create strange harmonics within the car, too...you may want to take a really close look at the relationship between the tailshaft angle on the tranny and the pinion angle. You may need to make some minor changes.

Nothing WRONG with what ya got there...but I think factory Camaro or Nova spring/shock mounts along with new U-bolts out back might work out a little better for ya. Try to check out the driveshaft angle and see if anything looks odd there.

All simple things that come with buying someone ELSE'S engine swap. Most people tackle the "hard part", then skimp on the details. That's where the new owner takes over!

Still a cool looking car well worth a few hours and bucks spent sorting out the few minor quirks!!! Good score!!

[Fat Hack]

Shhhh, Skate Fink...it's a SECRET!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Flat Ernie]

I still say vacuum leak...

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Rocky]

Good lookin hardtop. Ryan...
I'd cut all that factory camaro/nova mount shit loose from the rear axle housing and ash-can it. I did 'zactly that when I was buidling my 50 sdean delivery. I made new mounts with a 4" drop built into them. I welded up blocks with a "C" cut into the top of 'em to go against the axle tubes. Loosely bolted the rear end into the car with long U-bolts and moved pinion up and down until I had my correct pinion angle. Spot welded the "Blocks" to the axle tubes and finish welded after double checking angles and placement.
I made my lowering blocks longer at the bottom [prolly 6 inches long] to take into consideration the fact you will be drilling the spring bolt hole [locator hole] an inch and a half forward of rear axle centerline.. I reused the old 50 chevy bottom spring plates with their lower shock mounts.
This worked wonderful for me and I punished it with a 406 SBC and a 4 speed. One thing I might suggest is revised upper shock mounts while you're under there. The original 51 chevy upper shock mounts were in the trunk floor and are guaranteed to fatigue the metal and crack out in time. I made a upper shockmount crossmember from thick wall 1.5" square tubing and welded it between the frame rails....welded it directly to the inner rails. I welded shockmount tabs to the new crossmember before installing it. I learned to do this after my rear floor broke out with the shock still attached to it. Made a helluva racket!
Carkiller's dropped spindles with a cut coil would be the safest/easiest way to handle the front. I've seen his parts and the original brakes are all brand new stuff! The previous owner changed his car to mustang II parts......
Don't forget to update the steering gearbox to a 53 or 54 chevy box. That will make the car about 473 times nicer to drive because the 49-52 gearbox had phoney-baloney bronze/brass bushings and the 53-54 box had all roller bearings. Keeps the damn car from wandering all over the road. I found this out the hard way too! I believe the steering shaft/column length is the same as 49-52 but not entirely sure as I cut mine down to use a mid 70's-80's chevy van column with a rag joint...worked slick and allowed me to use modern turn signals and the old nova wiring harnes I had, without splicing wiring. I'm soooooo lazy...and cheap!
I made these changes in mine over a 3 year time span, making the car pleasant to drive for the guy I sold it to. Most of the time I spent with the car were with sheer terror of busted shocks and weaving steering...

[Ron]

Those look like the stock Nova saddles with some homemade or 51 lower plates but kinda hard to tell. If you use the the Nova saddles and lower plates the lower plates can bend up around the springs(if you look at them from the end they look like a ( instead of flat). Like aready said the stock springs are 1 3/4 inches wide and the Nova saddles and springs are wider.
I used to get the narrow saddle Butch's and use the stock 49/52 lower plates, but they real hard to get anything from anymore. Just cut and ground off the Nova stuff, set the rear up there where I wanted it, used an angle finder to set the pinion angle, welded the new saddles to the rear end(may be easier to take the rear back out to weld). I just usde the narrow saddles and made my own lowering blocks. Cause I'm cheap and the saddles were only 20 bux.

Measure your springs if they are the stock springs 1 3/4 inches wide try these

http://stoveboltengineco.com/catalog/60-4503.htm

http://stoveboltengineco.com/catalog/60-4510.htm

http://stoveboltengineco.com/catalog/60-4505.htm

I have never tried these but looks like what you need. It would help if they had pix in the catalog. Give them a call they are real nice and helpful. And ask them if their's make up for locater pin location. Because I think someone already said on those cars the locater pin in the spring is about 1 1/2 inhes forward. With a later rear that will move the wheels to far forward in the wheelwells. The saddles I got from Butch's already had both sets of holes. I would think Stovebolts would have the holes where you need but ask.

If you go to low in the rear you will have to c the frame, make room for the rearend in the trunk floor, and driveshaft tunnel. But that is easy to do as well.

I am looking at getting a 52 with a 235 this week. But it is not nearly that nice.

[fatassbuick]

Why are ya gonna lower it? I guess I'm out of touch, but I think it looks damned good how it sits now.

[choprods]

Ryan- it may be tourqing over in drive and contacting exhaust or drivetrain against something solid ,causing your noise.....

[Boones]

Ryan, the car looks nice, So you just could stand not being a 'Rockstar with a Torque'....

I would cut the mounts off the rear end and weld new ones on it so you can reset the pinion angle when you lower it ( The shock mount looks home made and just a copy of some of the later model Chevy products (S-10 rear shocks mount off the lower U-bolt perch in a similair manner (but cleaner) - you may want to use a set if you want to keep the shock in the same location

If you are not going to rearch the springs, then get a set of lowering blocks, weld on new perches and let her at it (assuming you can get her out of it now...)

[Ryan]

Well, you "NVH" guys were right. Turns out the OE style manifolds are right up against the pitman arm off the steering box and the drivers side motor mount is loose. There is some evidence that this problem has been messed with before, but I think they were too budget minded to find some less space hogging manifolds. Who makes really tight fitting exhaust manifolds for SBC now days?

As for the rear, I think I'm gonna cut everything off and start over.

You guys rock.

[Kustm52]

Congrats on the purchase...looks like you "done" good. Rear looks just like a '70 Nova one I have....the one that used the monoleaf springs. I agree with all the other suggestions ... cut all that out and start over ... if you need any parts I've got about seven '51 - ''52 parts cars.

Brian

[Fat Hack]

Cool! I'm glad it was a "simple" problem! I figured you had a parts rub going on there somewhere. Do a little grinding or maybe score some Sanderson manifolds/headers...or a similar "tight fit" design!

And yeah...best to go 'clean slate' on that rear set-up and do it your way!

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[choprods]

Ryan-I did a 53 chevy[stock steering] with a 350 about 25 years ago for Brother Reggie-and we used the "under the plug" 350 manifold that exits below#5 cyl location about 3/4 way back on [driver side]-we also pie cut/sawed the outlet about into and re angled it rearward and re welded it.that allowed headpipe to clear draglink deal on the old bellcrank steer linkage.

[Tman]

What choprods said, those rear dump "under the plug" manifolds work. How much of the firewall rib is trimmed off? Remove it all if needed. Then you might need to trim the lower firewall support, no biggie, they are not needed. And I got a couple RwT stickers for you and Marci http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Kustm52]

So, how does it drive? If it drives anything like mine, you are gonna want to do something about the steering anyway...when it's perfect it's marginal, at best. The suspension works ok, it's just the steeing and brakes that suck. Mine drives ok for short trips, but after about 12-14 hours on the road it really starts to be a pain in the ass...I still haven't decided what to do about it. Choprods, I was going to try the Nova steeing setup, but so far have been unable to find one...All the Mustang setups I have looked at look way to narrow...like almost two inches per side....I guess I'll just have to come up with something totally off the wall and revolutionize the industry...yep, I'm dreaming again!

Brian

[Tman]

Brian, have you done the 54 steering box? Mine drives like a champ, they brakes are even impressive except in the mountains where I baby the high tech 4 wheel drums. My new 54 will stay stock suspension, I see no problem.

[Kustm52]

Yep, on Rocky's advice I swapped in a '53 - '54 box.. I had hoped it would cure all my ills since the original was really sloppy, but it didn't really make a difference. I think the problem is it has nearly 50k on the rebuild of the front end, and while no one part is worn out, it is all getting a little sloppy. The biggest problem is an annoying "shimmy" that starts about 62, peaks at about 72 mph, then kinda disappears if you get up around 80, and I'm not driving it at that speed! Not for long, anyway. I've changed tires, wheels, etc. to no avail. Any ideas???

Brian

[Rocky]

Yeah, Brian.......freshen up the tie rod ends and check the chevy "equalizer" clearance. My 50 chevy had an aftermarket adjuster clamp to keep tension on this thing and help tighten up the slack it causes. Mine worked great. Also, double check and adjust the slack in the steering box and I'd send the car in to the alignment shop for a proper alignment.
I hate to bring this up but I found radial front tires make all the difference in the world if the rest of the front is up to snuff. Made my 50 drive straight and true. I found the same thing on my 49 ford coupe. These cars are heavy enough to really benefit from radials over bias plys. I know, I know...some of you guys would sooner be whipped by live snakes and stab your own eyes out with sharp sticks than run radials but I'm only relating what worked for me. And the bigger the bias ply tires I ran on the front, the worse the damn car drove. Gimme small radials on my 50's cars..

[Boones]

Ryan, If you are running stock from Suspension you may have to get a set of Sanderson headers that are made to clear the factory steering or remove the vertical firewall bracking that goes down to the frame (only keep the most outer one) if you want to run factory cast iron exhaust. I only removed the inner vertical and went with the Sanderson headers, they work great.

[choprods]

Hi kustom52- I suspect the main prob is clearance- whether ast the kingpins or mainly at the center mount on crossmember that mounts the "bellcrank" peice that bolts there. a little and I repeat little clearance there allows it to move "up and down" when you first start to turn wheel-BEFORE it does what it should be and turns right to left! I had that on one and it will scare the shit outa you when its "drivin you!" http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif!!!

[colorado51]

[ QUOTE ]
Ryan wrote: Colorado, please send pics!!! Thanks man!

[/ QUOTE ]

Ryan, here you go. I am using traction bars, they act as the lower mount as well as shock mounts. I used a home made angled lowering block, this lowered the rear as well as set the pinion angle correctly. The wedges on the bottom are just to angle the traction bars up a little.

http://photo.starblvd.net/~colorado51/1-2-2.jpg

http://photo.starblvd.net/~colorado51/1-2-3.jpg

[Skate Fink]

...bttt.......a LOT of good information in this post. Nice ride "Mrs. Ryan!" http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Ryan]

That's definately the same rear I have... I wonder if I might just make some blocks and see I can clean it up a tad...

If not, who makes spring kits for these cars?

[colorado51]

http://www.waltonfabrication.com/0801.htm

[raven]

Rear spring: Chassis Engineering
Rear end saddles, u-bolts and mounting plates:
Croft trailer in Lee's Summit, MO about $26.00.
Lowering blocks: Scrap metal bin at Metal-By_the-Foot on Truman road and I-70, about $5-6.

Any other questions?
r

[Mai Ki-Ki]

nice...matching cars..hehe

MAIKI