Buick Drums to Early Ford - Again.....

[Flat Ernie]

OK, I realize this has been touched on several times (maybe too many times) in the past, but let me float this one anyway.

Been slowly collecting parts for the brake upgrade from stock '40 to self-energizing & Buicks on my 33 B Pickup.

Courtesy of K9racer, I finally got one of the last pieces in my jigsaw puzzle of parts - the hubs.

Here's my combo so far:
Early 45 fin Buick drums
'42-'48 square back Ford spindles
'53-'56 F250 backing plates (w/F100 dual-servo cylinders & self-adjusting hardware)
'40-'41 hubs

I had been hunting for '46-'48 hubs as that's what I understood I needed, but the price was perfect on these (Thanks again, K9racer!).

Now, I've always seen the Buick drums mounted inside the hubs, hence my quest for '46-'48 hubs. But when I mocked all this stuff up today on the bench to start figuring out the machine work I'll need, something odd happened - it all looks like it fits, but with the drums on the outside. Hell, even the backing plates sets in perfectly inside the drums, the shoes are pretty well centered in the drums - everything. It appears I only need to skim the outer flange of the hub to true it & re-drill the drum for the 5x5.5" bolt circle.

So, my question is, did I just get lucky with my parts combination, or have I got it all screwed up?

If the drum really does have to be insde the hub (if so, why?), rather than how I've got it now, there will be serious machine work involved...

Thanks....
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PS - I'll try to post a pic or two later

[Flat Ernie]

Pics as promised...

[Flat Ernie]

Fit of backing plate...

[Flat Ernie]

Front view (excuse the "washer")

[Flat Ernie]

Hub, backing plate, & spindle relationship...

[Tman]

It looks good. Does the hub register properly in the backing plate and drum?

On those backing plates, you can weld up the odd offcenter wheel cyl bolt hole and redrill to run 41-48 car wheel cylinders

[Flat Ernie]

Tman,

Hub works for the backing plate, spindles fit the backing plate like a glove, only concern is hub to drum. The register on the hub is smaller than the drum, so unless I machine a register on the front of the hub, it would be only the wheel studs locating the drum.

I think if I machine about 0.100" off the front of the hub to true it and create a centered register for the drum, I may need to trim the back of the drum where the backing plate sits, but that's no big deal I 'spose - probably better than relying on re-drilled studs!

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[MIKE-3137]

Very interesting, maybe the difference is the f250 backing plates (lucky to find those!), but everything i've seen said you need the 46 hubs outside or the 40 hubs inside with the face machined flat. I'm using the 40 backing plates and 46 hubs,couldn't locate any f250 backing plates.

But, looks like your setup is fitting together nicely. keep us posted.....

[Flat Ernie]

As for the wheel cyl mounting - I'm using F100 wheel cylinders, so just added a "slotted" hole like the top one for the other side on those - looks like it will work like a champ.
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[tommy]

Does the machined surface inside the drum seat properly with the machined surface of the hub? My hub diameter was larger than the machined drum surface. The drum wouldn't sit flat on the hub flange until I reduced the flange diameter. If the hub flange is hitting on the casting surface and not the machined surface it may wobble.

[Flat Ernie]

Tommy,

Good call - I'll check that tomorrow.

This is why I love this place....
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[k9racer]

some one fill me in on the f250 backing plates are the rear the same as the front. the reason I ask is I can buy a trailer with this 8 lug bolt rear end assy. I told the owner today that I did not want it because it was not a split housing. Ernie I will try to get to columbia Tenn in the next 10 days and try to find the wheel bearings if you need them.

[Flat Ernie]

K9,

No worries 'bout the bearings - as for the backing plates, I don't think they're the same front to rear. The front backing plates can be tough to find, but only because the F100/150 is so much more common...

Thanks!
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[Mart]

Looks good, Ernie.
Really it doesn't matter what you've heard, if it all fits together, it will work.
I'd be tempted to make up a little spacer ring to centre the drum on the hub, rather than machining the drums, you need a pretty bit lathe to swing those drums, a spacer ring could be made on a little lathe. Like Tommy said above, make sure the drum sits properly on the hub. I'd also turn down the OD of the hub, within reason, there looks to be plenty of meat outside of the stud holes.
All the machining assumptions are normally based on using early ford backplates/ late hubs and drums on the inside.
Are those hubs the type that has the drum on the outside?
Far from going over old ground, looks like you are breaking new ground, or at least revisiting forgotten territory.
Mart.

[Mart]

TECH-O-MATIC.

[reefer]

Looks like a real good package Ernie....the price of 53/56 F250 back plates just went through the roofhttp://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.Keep us posted on how you progress, I love this sort of stuff.

[Flat Ernie]

Reefer- thanks for admiring my "package"

Mart - I think you're right - a spacer ring is prolly the way to go on this and yeah, these hubs originally had drums on the outside, so the flange must be further inboard which is helping out a lot.

I think I'll true the mounting surface of the hub
Turn down the OD of the hub to better match the drum (took a look this morning and it needs it)
Turn down the OD of the hub register just enough to true it and have a spacer ring machined that will press on the hub & center the drum

Thanks for the help, guys!
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[Rocky]

Yo, Ernie...keep us informed on what diameter ring you had machined and how much you removed from the circumference of the hub, ok? I'm putting together the same setup [only with 59 Buick backing plates} and haven't gotten to the machine work yet. I'd be real interested in knowing these dimensions and knowing how much you machined off the hub diameter to fit flush inside the drums too. Thanks.

[reefer]

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif, you know what I meant. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

I did a similar kind of thing a while back with my Buicks/Ford back plates I.E, I mounted the drum on the outside of the hub by having the outer diameter of the hub flange turned down to fit the recess in the back of the buick drum(the shallow depression inside the drum)I had the hub flange faced and the drum also to make sure they fit flat and true and locate the drum centrally(true)this was then fixed with grub scews coutersunk into the drum.It all went together fine and the backing plate sat real nice flush with the outer edge of the drum and gave me the look I was after..BUT..the linings didn`t match up with the shoes properly and I reverted to as was.I later changed to a set of the 45 fin type drums and they sit o.k. with the backing plate more or less flush(ish).I guess it`s the F250 back plate that makes it work.Lookin` forward to seeing more.

[mecutem]

flat ernie: great post and info. I would like to do a setup like your doing in the near future. Until a couple months ago I didn't even know about this combination.

I am taking a 56 250 front brake setup apart right now (winters coming) and wonder about the spindles or hubs. Is the only parts a rodder saves the backing plates with hardware? No use for the hubs or spindles?

I will be watching to see how it all comes togather for you. gee this hamb is a great place! Steve

[Flat Ernie]

Reefer - couldn't resist!

Are you using the F250 backing plates too? Where was your mismatch with the linings/shoes? Which width shoes were you running, 1-3/4" or 2"?

mecutem - Since the hubs are 8 holes, I think they're out of the question, but I never measured them to see if they'd work re-drilled or not - I pitched 'em along with the drums. I found the '42-'48 square pass car spindles an absolutely perfect fit - no grinding, snug fit in the backing plates, holes line up - perfect.

I'm using F100 wheel cylinders so I've got a more typical dual-action servo setup. I've been told I probably don't need it, but why not? If one is enough, two is better, right? If you look at the mounting holes for the F250 cylinder, they're diagonally opposite. The F100 are parallel at the top, so I drilled & slotted an additional opening just like the top one and it bolts up fine.

Mac's sells a brake self-adjuster rebuild kit with everything you need, but it didn't include the adjuster spring &amp; the cable looks just a tad too short - both easily remedied and for <$10 you can't go wrong.

I'm pretty psyched it all fit so well - I was expecting a lot of machine work...

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[mecutem]

k9racer: I just finished pulling front and rear backing plates from a 56 ford 250. I needed a project for this afternoon. The backing plates front and back look like they are the same stamping.....not positive though. The only dif I see is shape of the hole for the wheel cylinder. I have a couple pics of the fronts and rears side by side. The backing with the torch holes (not by me) are off the rear of the floating axle. This is fun......Steve

[mecutem]

heres a shot of the backside of a front and rear backing plate. Once again the torch hole plate is the rear. Steve

[Flat Ernie]

Wow - looks like they are the same then! Maybe rears are the ones to get - already got a dual-servo cylinder. Although I didn't see any parking brake provisions - was it on the tranny like the bigger trucks? Or is that what was torched out? Interesting nonetheless...

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[k9racer]

Thanks Steve if I did not p#ss the man off to bad I will try to buy the trailer tomorrow (Monday.) Are all the 250 series the same or only certain years. Thank You.

[mecutem]

flaternie: No park brake provisions on the rear backing plates......must have had a setup on the trans. The guy who torched the holes was after the adjuster.....his words were something like.."my little trick to free up frozen brakes....torch the adjuster out!" Anyway for a painted backing plate the holes can be easily filled. Steve

K9racer: I am learning as we go here. I have heard the 53-56 backing plates were the ones to use. So if the rear work maybe thats the only years........I don't know. It seems it would be too easy if 1953 up into the 70's worked. I don't have any newer trucks here to compare to. Steve

[reefer]

No, I used `40 backing plates.... I was trying to re-invent the wheel I guess!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Flat Ernie]

mecutem - cool! - front OR rears should work then. At least they look identical (save the wheel cylinder) - I may have to amend some of my wanted ads out there (looking for another set)

reefer - now it makes sense. I can see where the '40 backing plates it might make the shoe alignment a bit wacky. I've even seen/read that they still mount the hub outside the drum using '40 hubs, but it's a lot of machine work (obviously) to the point there is concern over the strength of the hub.

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[Flat Ernie]

OK - quick rough measurements of the hub OD &amp; diam of the machined inner portion of the drum looks like I need to take off a bit, but looks very reasonable considering how much meat is on the hub.

Here's a pic of the backing plates before diassembly that might be easier to see.
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[Flat Ernie]

Minor Update - I may have located another set of backing plates - just gotta get a price outta the guy. Looking for a set for my dad now...

For those interested finding these backing plates, I've had decent luck advertising on the Ford Truck Enthusiasts website &amp; the Fordbarn Early V8 website.

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