Centrifrugal Blower? WHAT IS IT???? [Archive]

tommy

10-08-2003, 10:49 AM

http://fototime.com/{6E68A753-DAB2-4F49-BDF6-ACC5ACD2F6E3}/picture.JPG
The belts turn the black pulley. Turning a shaft connected to...
http://fototime.com/{00BE00CE-4195-4557-9D51-ED6540649B6C}/picture.JPG
a gear inside the housing which turns the "impeller" inside the aluminum blower housing.

http://fototime.com/{21B482D6-ACDC-4650-936D-534B5B556128}/picture.JPG
The impeller is spinning. The air/fuel mixture drops into the housing in the center. "Centrifugal" force from the spinning impeller throws the mixture around the edge of the housing building up pressure until it goes down the chute into the intake manifold.
http://fototime.com/{FC5A4B90-F20B-4948-B5B9-3E76208E601D}/picture.JPG
The mixture turns down through the heat exchanger into the intake manifold.

The other tubes and holes in the heat exchanger are for engine coolant to warm up the air/fuel mixture for winter time operation. They were made to boost HP for heavy trucks that hauled things year round. Most hot rodders eliminate this feature.

There were other super charged cars in the 30s. I think Graham had one mounted like a generator down on the side of it's inline engine. They are just belt driven air pumps.

Hope this isn't too confusing.

38Chevy454

10-08-2003, 11:21 AM

Here is a "modern" centrifugal supercharger, as installed on a "vintage" nailhead. The supercharger is specifically an ATI ProCharger, but all centrifugal blowers look quite similar. I agree with the best definition is they are like a belt driven turbocharger. Usually much bigger size than a turbo, but similar appearance and also work the same. Most centrifugal blower set-ups are blow-through the carb.

Hot Rod Ron

10-08-2003, 12:19 PM

38chevy454 has the right idea. Metalshapes has a McCoughly supercharger on his 28 roadster. I called him and he is going to try and post a pic of his roadster with his, and that superchager works like a bat out of hell.

mikes51

10-08-2003, 01:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
looks like a oversized AC compressor. Some of the Studebaker cars ran them from the factory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like somone else said, the carb is in the box
in the back.
http://photo.starblvd.net/~mikes51/2-2-1.jpg http://photo.starblvd.net/~mikes51/2-2-2.jpg

manyolcars

10-08-2003, 03:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Metalshapes has a McCoughly supercharger on his 28 roadster. .

[/ QUOTE ] I believe thats---McCullough

38Chevy454

10-08-2003, 05:39 PM

Also, I was so busy typing, I forgot to say that the picture of the supercharged engine is in my car! It's a 63 Riviera, engine is a 401. Currently have the engine out and the heads off as I just spent $1100 to get them all rebuilt. Everything new: hardened seats, stainless valves, bronze guides, springs and more porting work. It should run real strong. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

metalshapes

10-08-2003, 05:41 PM

Nope, it is McCULLOCH

drgnwgn289

10-08-2003, 07:00 PM

That hawk has a VS-57. It was first produced for Kaiser by McColloch and then for Studebaker. Then Paxton bought out McColloch and they made the SN-60, which is what I have (see picture). Paxton made very few modifications to the design for a long time (until 1993) and the changes they did make were to reduce cost, not to improve the design. I could go on for hours but you probably don't want to know all that... http://hotrodders.com/gallery/data/500/1841studemotor.JPG http://hotrodders.com/gallery/data/500/1841engine1-med.jpg

metalshapes

10-08-2003, 07:08 PM

Exacly what happened with that name change?
One company buying another seems unlikely, since the guys name was Robert Paxton McCulloch.

drgnwgn289

10-08-2003, 10:08 PM

I'm not exactly sure what happened or why the name changed. Its rumored that when the name was changed the company went into money laundering for the mob or some shit...I don't know if thise is true or not. The products didn't change with the name though, all the internal parts for the blowers are interchangable from 57 until 93.

Metalshapes...It was mentioned that you have a VS-57 on your car...what motor is it on?

McGrath

10-08-2003, 11:10 PM

While we're on the subject of Studes, look at this Ruination of a perfectly good car....

drgnwgn289

10-09-2003, 12:16 AM

No way, that car is hella cool. I espcially dig the scoop and graphics. I may be colorblind, but I know a cool paint job when I see one

Fatstang

10-09-2003, 12:37 AM

In line with this post and not hijacking it: My son's friends have been talking about "Wiffle chargers" which I understand to be some kind of poor boy centrifrugal super charger. Trying a search engine match returned nada. I may have the spelling wrong. Anyone have anything to allow about this type of supercharger?

metalshapes

10-09-2003, 12:39 AM

drgn, Granitelli's book seems deliberately vague on that subject, or maybe he is just skimming over it because he did not think it was interesting.
I have a VS 57 on a '57 Chevy Corvette 283 engine in my '28 Roadster.
Somebody else wanted to see some pics of that engine, maybe my G/F can take some and post them this weekend.

metalshapes

10-09-2003, 12:43 AM

Fatstang, try Whipple charger.
It is more like a roots blower than a centrifugal one, but much more efficient.
Way to modern for the HAMB, and to expensive to be a poor mans anything.
Developed from a blower made in Scotland in the '80s ( I beleve by FT Dynamics )
What is it with Scots and Blowers?

drgnwgn289

10-09-2003, 02:29 AM

I'd love to see some pics of you motor metalshapes. Over the summers I work for a guy names John Erb. He's really into Paxtons and McCullochs and has a mail order buisness where he rebuilds, repairs and modifies these blowers. He mostly does Studebaker stuff (Avanti mostly) but he does have a 57 vette with a supercharged, alcohol small block.

McGrath

10-09-2003, 11:10 AM

Anybody ever look up the Roots Brothers, as in "Roots" style Blowers? They used them to Ventilate Mine Shafts, among other things...

http://www.rootsblower.com/aboutus.cfm?call=history

wingnutz

10-09-2003, 01:55 PM

The blowers you are referring to are know as regenerative blowers..., they introduce a few more inches of boost over normally aspirated motors..., but not as much as a positive displacement (PD) blower (Roots Blower) such as the ones found on dragsters. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

ROOTS brothers discovered the rotary positive displacement principle in 1854, (PD) blowers, are machines that "pushes" a relatively constant volume of gas through a system. Technically, the bare bones unit does not internally compress gas, and therefore is truly a compressor. However, compression is achieved through the blower pushing the constant volume against restrictions downstream in a pressure system.

The volume is fixed by the configuration of the casing and rotating parts. Flow through a PD machine is relatively constant, regardless of pressure changes. Centrifugal compressors maintain a relatively constant pressure while the volume of gas moving fluctuates.

But Regenerative blowers such as old "Frenzel" "Mac's", and "Paxton" have too much "slip" for seriouse drag racing purposes.

"Slip" can best be demonstrated by placing a clear plastic bag over a house fan..., Even though you can see the fan blades turning it doesn't move any air!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

But a positive displacement blower would eat up the bag and try to suck it through the unit because of minimum "Slip". http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

They do look cool and are great for the street but were abandoned for the "ROOT's" Blowers! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Mark

drgnwgn289

10-09-2003, 02:53 PM

for that same reason you don't see roots blowers performing to their full potential on daily drivers....

laverda

10-09-2003, 03:08 PM

Just to add another supercharger to the mix ... I have never come across an axial flow version ...

50's Latham Axial Flow Supercharger (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33741&item=2436448 881)

Anyone heard of this?

Later,
papa al

drgnwgn289

10-09-2003, 03:28 PM

That is pretty cool...I'd like to an exploded diagram of that one (I've already seen enough 'exploded' paxtons http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

HotRodJosh

10-09-2003, 03:58 PM

This is the McCulloch Im running on my flatty:
http://97heaven.com/blower.jpg

Also here is a Latham on a flatty:

http://97heaven.com/davecar.jpg

wingnutz

10-09-2003, 04:10 PM

Love the way your McCulloch looks on the Flatty, Kind-of like a "Space ship"! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Great shots ..., is the Latham on a IL Car?

Mark

sodbuster

10-09-2003, 04:39 PM

Not to hijack this post but this is on Epay.....Lots o' Coin...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2436331703&category=38 634
http://i3.ebayimg.com/03/i/00/bb/c9/92_1.JPG

http://i18.ebayimg.com/03/i/00/bb/2e/57_1.JPG
Chris Nelson
Kansas

HotRodJosh

10-09-2003, 04:45 PM

The Latham is on a IL car. Actually in my town. The car can be seen in the book "Hot Rod Chronicals" Its the "Burk Roadster"

I got mine for ALOT less than the E-bay auction!

Big A

10-09-2003, 04:48 PM

Well, I've got to post this shot every time this subject comes up...

http://www.zerotosixty.net/Daddio2-sm.jpg

My father had a McCulloch on his '55 Chev in '56. The "serious" engine guys gave him shit because they regarded it as "lame bolt-on equipment". Same shit, different era.

Revhead

10-09-2003, 04:51 PM

look at this site for lots more

http://www.vs57.com/

metalshapes

10-09-2003, 05:36 PM

Big A, I got a lot of that before I had the Blower rebuild.
It was mounted on my engine but not hooked up, not to have a fake blower but to get all the clearences right while I was building the car.
I had all these experts (that had been there, done that )tell me how these blowers dont make any boost, and they could not stand in the shadow of a 6-71.
I'm glad I stay'd with my plan, I'm pretty happy with my "lame bolt on". Now if these geesers want to tell me what a piece of shit it is, they will have to catch me first!

286merc

10-09-2003, 05:38 PM

The way I understand it is that Paxton is the parent company and McCullogh was a division.

That blower was a factory option on the 38/9 Ford and after the war many cop cars were outfitted with them at the dealers. Paxton was always working behind the scenes and there were even 54 Y blocks running on the test track in Dearborn, a few got out to the public with beefed Fordos.

The factory blown 57 312 was the Paxton/McCullough.

drgnwgn289

10-09-2003, 05:56 PM

I forgot to tell you metalshapes. If you run a 6 volt solenoid with a 12 volt system, it will nearly double your boost...and the solenoids won't burn up, its some easy horsepower.

286 merc, the blown 312 was infact a paxton, however, it is niether the VS-57 or the SN-60 style. The blowers that were made for ford weren't very good, but they look cool. A guy here in lubbock went through the extensive process of putting all the guts from an SN-60 into one of the factory ford blowers. It looks good and works even better

metalshapes

10-09-2003, 06:10 PM

Thanks drgn, But I'm not changing anything untill I've got bigger brakes...

briggs&strattonChev

10-09-2003, 10:10 PM

dudes, thanks for all the information..................Briggs

wingnutz

10-10-2003, 08:35 PM

Hotrodjosh

Going to the "Pile-up"? Would love to see your car there as well as your friends with the Lathom! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Mark

HotRodJosh

10-10-2003, 11:08 PM

Ill be there. Not sure on Dave though. He insists its going to Ra**! Better not!

wingnutz

10-11-2003, 12:35 AM

See Ya tommorrow!

Have to work in the AM but I'll look for your car.

Mark

ps and it ain't going to r%!*..and he'll miss a good show!

Machinos

10-11-2003, 02:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I was so busy typing, I forgot to say that the picture of the supercharged engine is in my car! It's a 63 Riviera, engine is a 401. Currently have the engine out and the heads off as I just spent $1100 to get them all rebuilt. Everything new: hardened seats, stainless valves, bronze guides, springs and more porting work. It should run real strong. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

How well does it work? Power, and gas milage wise?

metalshapes

10-11-2003, 04:15 AM

I dont know about Gas milage, I have not checked it.
The engine is smoother with the Blower than without. When I hooked up the Blower with the old Cam, It lost most of its lumpy idle. From what I hear, a 6-71 has a more intant throttle responce than the McCulloch. You can drive it at low RPM all day long, and it feels pretty much like an unblown engine, maybe a little more torque, But with sort of a lazy throttle responce. ( but not in a Turbo lag kind of way but more like it would with a heavy flywheel )
If you are already in a higher gear, driving along at low RPM, and you put your foot in it, there is no explosive acceleration at first, there is no bog either, it just steadely builds speed, past the point where you would expect the engine to still have power, accelerating harder as it goes up in RPM, right to the moment you change gear. In the next gear you already have boost and RPM so it just keeps on going.
It is probably not what you want for a serous competition car( it only gives about 5 or 6 PSI ), but it is very nice for a steet car. Sofar not to temperamentfull, the engine just runs a little hotter, and it makes a nice noice.

drgnwgn289

10-11-2003, 01:04 PM

I think the reason for you motor behaving the way it does is that the little blower can't keep up with all those cubic inches. The biggest motors those were put on from the factory were 304's. Also, a really lumpy cam doesn't work well with a centrifugal blower. A lot of good cams for N/A motors have a lot of overlap, and that allows a lot of the air from the supercharger to just blow straight through the motor instead of building pressure.

metalshapes

10-11-2003, 04:47 PM

The Engine is only a 283, With a blower grind cam in it.
I'm not unhappy with the engine at all, I have never owned anything like it. ( as far as power or money spent.).
I was just trying to paint an honest picture.
what I like somebody else might not, but I'm completely sold on Blown engines.

Darkman270

10-11-2003, 05:25 PM

Since no one has posted a picture of a VR57 McCulloch I'll try. This a picture of the motor I am building for my 57 Ford F100. I have 90% of the supercharger setup. It took me 4 years to accumulate the parts and I had the supercharger to start with.

drgnwgn289

10-11-2003, 06:21 PM

Ok, I get it now, for some retarded reason I was thinking you were talking about a nailhead...

On a related note, I talked to the guy I work for in the summers in Carson City and I asked him about his special "blower grind cams" that he has. They are his own grind that he has come up with and they are like nothing else on the market. I asked him what kind of power increase could I expect if I used one of his cams. He said, "I can't really tell you, not knowing the exact specs of your current cam and stuff. However, it made a 148 rear wheel horsepower increase over the best cam that crower offers in my '57 vette with a 400 sbc." The motor he was talkin about makes about 720 horsepower, has alcohol injection and about 20 pounds of boost, so its on a totally different scale than what most of us are on...but thats still a hell of a power gain for just swappin cams...

metalshapes

10-11-2003, 10:23 PM

I went from Crower to CompCams and it was like night and day, Dont know the specs on the Crower cam, because they wouldn't tell me.

metalshapes

10-12-2003, 03:02 PM

Pics of engine...

metalshapes

10-12-2003, 03:03 PM

another...

drgnwgn289

10-12-2003, 03:38 PM

That looks so cool! What kind of carb do you have?

briggs&strattonChev

10-12-2003, 07:23 PM

metalshapes, that setup looks sweet in that car. Right at home with those vette valvecovers

metalshapes

10-13-2003, 02:23 AM

Thanks guys, If my earlier post sounded negative, it was not ment to be.
It has the widest useble powerband I've ever come across, but it is 45 year old technology and parts. And if that showes up at very low RPM/Boost that is OK. A hot Unblown engine would not even run under those conditions.
The carb is a Holley 600 DP.

jmuk

10-13-2003, 02:34 PM

Metalshapes - sure looks cool - could I use them on the site?

With regards to McCulloch/Paxton, just to clarify - Paxton Products was the research division of McCulloch Motors and was set up in 1951 to develop and market the supercharger amongst other things. In 1958 due to high losses Robert Paxton McCulloch sold off the Paxton Products division to Andy Granatelli.

Regardless of who owned Paxton all variable speed blowers were marketed as McCullochs, all variable and fixed ratio superchargers were marketed as Paxtons.

The variable speed superchargers (VS57 and DO-59) used a variable ratio drive pulley to vary the speed and therefore boost output of the supercharger.

The variable ratio superchargers (VR57 and VR58) ran at a higher input shaft speed but varied the impellor drive ratio to modify the boost output.

The fixed ratio superchargers were basically the VS57 units with the variable drive pulley removed and were referred to as the Short Nose (SN) units. i.e. SN60, SN89, SN93 etc.,

Swapping 12 volt with 6 volt solenoids will not double the boost - all the solenoid does is shift the drive pulley ration on the VS57 between high and low.

The 57 Fords used the VR57 which was superior to the VS57 units. In stock form they were rated at 325 Horses and in NASCAR form they were rated at 340 HP. They dominated NASCAR in 1957 until they were banned.

As for performance (see attached) - the McCulloch/Paxtons were never really meant for out and out racing - they just made good street sleepers (and very fast 57 Fords).

Jim

metalshapes

10-13-2003, 05:22 PM

Sure you can Jim, there are some more pics of my car on the Unibody Roadster thread.
Thanks for the extra info.

drgnwgn289

10-13-2003, 10:19 PM

Ok, I phrased the statement about the solenoid wrong...if you use a 6 volt solenoid it will keep you in High range more....
The VR-57s weren't really "superior"...
They made 325 horses on a 312...while the VS-57 made 275 horses on a 289. However the VR-57s were prone to breaking and didn't last too long under everyday use. So, they made more power per cubic inch, but as far as dependability, durability and all out "ruggedness", I think the VS-57 is superior

jmuk

10-14-2003, 02:59 PM

Thanks Metalshapes

drgnwgn289 - Fair comment on the the VR57's - however when looked after I still think they were superior.

1) They had a better boost output potential - could be shimmed to produce up to 7 psi against the 6 psi of the VS57.

2) They had a greater air flow capacity - not sure about the actual quantities but when the bigger engines came out in 1958 the VR57's were used by Paxton.

3) They ran cooler - the direct oiling allowed them to run cooler than the self contained VS57 units - which helped extend their operating life, and possibly helped with their higher boost outputs and greater airflow handling capability.

4) Slimmer and smaller - more compact installation.

The downside of the VR57 units was the use of engine oil for cooling and lubrication. No one bothered changing oil as regularly as they should - and blow by acids and contaminents soon made a meal of the blowers.The VS57 units were more fault tolerant as they had their own internal oil reservoir - so infrequent oil changes (not reccomended) didn't necessarily mean doom for the supercharger.

The VR57 units were also a bit susceptable to those who like to rev the crap out of their engines as soon as it's fired up. They really need a good oil supply and high revving when oil has yet to reach them is not reccommended. Low oil pressure was also not very good for them and if anyone was using one today I'd reccommend having a seperate oil filter and an automatic engine shut off switch for low oil pressure situations.

The 325/340 HP rating was very conservative. Actual ratings were significantly higher. A recent dyno test has revealed some surprising figures - which I cannot pass over until it's published.

Jim

Jim

drgnwgn289

10-14-2003, 03:32 PM

many good points...however, it is hard to compare boost figures of two blowers unless they are both tested on the exact same engine. My blower (a VS-57 with the nose cut off) will make about 8.5 to 9 psi on my 289, but if it were put on a 502 it would have a hard time making any pressure...I guess when you really look at it, both units have their flaws and it all comes down to personal prefference.

Nice website by the way...been there many times, had no idea it belonged to a hamber

jmuk

10-15-2003, 03:09 PM

Again fair point - may be able to do that once I get my Mercury on the road as I'll have a VS57 and VR57.

I'm a part time Hamb member - Don't seem to have much time nowadays for surfing the net, and maintaining the site. Family and Mercury are a higher priority. Do drop in on the hamb at work occasionally though - always a good read.

Jim