NHRA rules meeting

[Ron Golden]

I thought it best if I opened this thread so all comments about the rules would be in one place.

The meeting with Rob Park and Bob Blackwell (NHRA) included Dean Isackson, one of the partners on our car, and myself.

Since Bob is the Division 5 NHRA Technical Director his comments on the rules were of utmost importance. After a brief reading of the HA/GR rules he said some minor changes were needed. The recommended changes are as follows:

1. E-85 and ethanol is considered pump gas.

2. Since the NHRA rules require a sealed fuel tank the hand pump and pressurized fuel tank wouldn't be allowed.

3. Rubber hose in the fuel line can't exceed 12" total.

4. The master electrical cutoff switch must be accessible from the rear of the car.

5. Arm restraints required.

6. Fire resistant gloves required.

Bob was reluctant to make a final call on the rules before he talked to someone at NHRA. He wanted to get clearification on the roll bar requirement before he commited to a final ruling and I'm sure he will look long and hard at the rules again.

The meeting went well and both Bob and Rob understand what we're trying to do and seemed to want to make NHRA tracks open to us. Bob will get back to me on their final ruling.

Ron

[Drewfus]

Looking good, sounds alot like you're heading down the path we did, with some basic and realistic details to address, great to hear they were well recieved, and taken with a open mind, congrats to all involved.

Cheers,

Drewfus

[buffaloracer]

Thanks Ron.
Pete

[Mr. Mac]

That sounds easy,all that stuff we already have to do in Tulsa.

[mudflap261]

how was your photo presention recived and any comment on the aussies .keep up the good work

[moparsled]

since I was the one who brought up the hand pump/pressurized tank, and since I REALLY want to run that set up, I have two questions--

1) to Ryan- can I run it at Mokan for the H.A.M.B. drags?

2) what is a "sealed fuel tank"?
pretty much every car I've ever worked on either has a vented tank or a vented cap. In order for the air pressure system to work, it has to be SEALED or all the air pressure will leak out.

all the rest of the stuff is easy enough.

[Ron Golden]

Thanks guys. I think the brochure with the pictures of all the cars helped. You can thank Rand Man for printing the pictures and mailing them to me.

Although Bob and Rob aren't as old as most of us, they seemed to like the concept and look of the cars. Bob spent the last few days out west certifying top fuel cars so this was the other end of the spectrum, so to speak.

If the hand pump/pressurized tank needs to be operational you could have 2 different caps and fuel supply systems and switch them as required by the track. Even if the hand pump wasn't operational it would look cool as hell and period perfect.

Ron

[moparsled]

Although Bob and Rob aren't as old as most of us, they seemed to like the concept and look of the cars.

I wonder if I'm the exception to the rule on that around here- I'm "only" 35.

[Ryan]

1) to Ryan- can I run it at Mokan for the H.A.M.B. drags?


Abso-fuckin-lutely.

I think it's great you guys are getting hooked up with the NHRA and making stuff happen. It will only allow you to run at more tracks. And that's a good thing!

That said, the NHRA has nothing to do with our official rules. And if you want to run a hand pump at the HAMB drags, I'll love you for it!

:)

[moparsled]

Abso-fuckin-lutely.

I think it's great you guys are getting hooked up with the NHRA and making stuff happen. It will only allow you to run at more tracks. And that's a good thing!

That said, the NHRA has nothing to do with our official rules. And if you want to run a hand pump at the HAMB drags, I'll love you for it!

:)

I'm not so sure my wife will go in for the man-love thing, but I plan on running the hand pump.

wow, now that sounds gross

I plan on running a hand operated air pressurized fuel system

[Old6rodder]

I wonder if I'm the exception to the rule on that around here- I'm "only" 35.

Yeah, you're no more than a snot nosed shin biter. Don't you realise that I don't trust anyone under 60?

MAN, I couldn't resist THAT one ........ :D. Thanks Moparsled, I always appreciate a good set-up line.


Seriously, I can field that sealed tank question as we had to address it. What they mean is "unable to vent gas out in the event of a turnover". We added a light spring loaded ball-check to our cap, it vents in under "draw" and closes off under pressure. Lots of the cars run a coiled vent tube that simply gives the gas too long a way out to sweat it.

I believe the pressurized tank concept is what they're not comfortable with as it would spray fuel rather than sucking air should it even get pin holed, as would the lines too.

There's no reason you couldn't set up both systems "in series" and switch off a discrete electric pump when you want to use the "hand job". Perhaps add a ball valve to shut it off for NHRA tracks?

[Drewfus]

I wonder if I'm the exception to the rule on that around here- I'm "only" 35.

Sorry....you're an old fart.....I'm 32;):D

Ron - Let us know if you need any more info/photo's etc, here to help.

Cheers,

Drewfus:)

[Mr. Mac]

Snot nosed shin biter,I've never heard that one before. I'll have to rember that one. The hand bump will be cool mopar. At least you wont have to worry about the electric pump failing you.
Old6rodder,Dont worry you can trust me dude.:D:D

[mudflap261]

what have we here ? dueling birthdays . be 71 28 of feb

[Mr. Mac]

what have we here ? dueling birthdays . be 71 28 of feb

Mudflaper,Thats old.hahaha Damn not really.

[64 DODGE 440]

Old Farts rule!!!

Recent inductee to the old fart zipper chest club, I'll be 62 on April 7. I'll be able to collect social Security this year!

Good to see progress being made with the NHRA, every little bit helps, and if we can get co-operation in one devision it will surely help out here on the "left coast".

One thing I would like to see is some sort of clarification on welding methods, as I really don't understand why a good strong chassis can't be build with a "stick welder".

If they are going to approve 1950's design, is there a big problem with 1950's technology?

Just wondering out loud.......any others out there who feel the same?

[Mr. Mac]

I sure dont see anything wrong with a stick welder.
Bob Hindman of the Hornet team is the best stick welder I have ever seen.Everything he builds is with a stick.I have never looked that up in the rule book, so does it say you cant use a stick welder for slow cars?

[64 DODGE 440]

The NHRA wants MIG welding on mild steel chassis and TIG on 4130 steel.

[bobw]

66 year old fart and have two chest zippers.
My 2007 rule book states that mild steel roll bars and cages must by welded with MIG or TIG. The paragraph talks about slag inclusions, which is what they are probably worried about with stick welding. Pipelines and ships are stick welded. I'm betting a good stick weld on an HA/GR could get through tech.

[Ron Golden]

Bobw and 64 Dodge are right.

Section 4 of the general regulations; Roll bars:

All 4130 chromoly tube must be TIG heliarc welded and mild steel tubing must be MIG wire feed or TIG welded. I doubt anyone would ever catch a good stick welded chassis.... unless it was one I did. My welding looks like clumps of bubble gum.

Ron

[REJ]

That is one thing that they have never checked on mine.If they checked it, they never said anything. The chassis and the mild steel roll cage is all stick welded and I thinks it would pass an X-ray test.
I have seen some mig welded stuff that I would be worried about, but it was the weldor not the welder.:D
Ron, did they say anything about how the switch was to operate? I was told that in 2008, they had to be push/pull from the back and I think push was off??

[Ron Golden]

We discussed that briefly yesterday and the switch can be any style as long as it identifies the off position. On push/pull switches your correct..it has to push in to kill the power.

Ron

[moparsled]

that's good to know about the stick welding. I have been considering buying about a hundred pounds of 7010 and brushing up.
I guess I better get 200 if I'm going to pull it off!!!

[nexxussian]

So just to clarify (for a snot nosed shin biter of a spry 34:D) they were recommending E85, or against it?

[bobw]

A quick review of my rule book shows that alcohol, or E85 is legal in all bracket or index classes. Must use gas in stock, super stock and all the wierd derivations thay have created of those types of cars. Gas Dragsters must use gas (duh), econo dragsters are gas only, nostalgia dragster is methanol only. It appears to me that HA/GR owners could determine their own rule regarding fuel, since the cars don't fit into any classification.

[nexxussian]

Ahh, okay, I wasn't sure. Thank you.

[64 DODGE 440]

A quick review of my rule book shows that alcohol, or E85 is legal in all bracket or index classes. Must use gas in stock, super stock and all the weird derivations they have created of those types of cars. Gas Dragsters must use gas (duh), econo dragsters are gas only, nostalgia dragster is methanol only. It appears to me that HA/GR owners could determine their own rule regarding fuel, since the cars don't fit into any classification.

I personally lean to running gasoline.......it seems like alcohol, ethanol, and methanol fuels aren't compatible with many old technology fuel system components, and it's not like our six inch tire is going to be able to couple up the extra horsepower anyway.

Isn't the class "HAMB Gas Dragsters" anyway?

[bobw]

If I remember correctly, you need about 1/3 more volume of E85 compared to gas. Old carbs can be rejetted but there could be passages in some carbs that should be enlarged but would be hard to do. Could be a builder/tuner's nightmare when using period correct carbs. Yeah, I know the old lakes guys ran alcohol in 97's etc., so it can be done.

[348chevy]

After talking to some people that run alcohol I think that I'm sticking with gas because of the problems. You have to get rid of all the rubber or neoprene within the fuel system. Also you have to run a lot more of it. One thing is that it runs much cooler than gas. I doubt that we would run more than a gallon of gas at a meet anyway unless you were making a tremendious amount of runs.:)Roy

[mudflap261]

ROY the hornet burns a quart of fuel on a12.30 107 pass that includes doing aburn out and stageing

[Mr. Mac]

I'd run alcohol in a heartbeat in our HA/GR if I could but its illegal for these cars. E 85 I guess you could get away with because its pump gas.

[Toymaker]

BTT Anymore info about NHRA acceptance?

[Ron Golden]

Toymaker,

I got a call today from Bob Blackwell (NHRA) but I wasn't at home to talk to him. I'll call him tomorrow and see what he has to say. I have my fingers crossed. I'll let everyone know as soon as I hear anything.

Ron

[64 DODGE 440]

Crossed fingers here too.:D

[Old6rodder]

Ditto .......

Do crossed eyes help at all?

[Ron Golden]

Bad news......

I talked to Bob Blackwell (NHRA) today and he finally got feed-back from "Brian" at NHRA headquarters regarding the HA/GR dragsters. Bottom line.....we have to meet the NHRA front engine, 10 second or slower chassis rules.

It seems NHRA is suffering a lot of lawsuits and will be making all their dragstrips follow the rules to the letter. Example: no more street roadsters running 1/8th mile without roll bars, no more renting the tracks for "nostalgia" events with anything being allowed to run, etc.

It sounds like IHRA and non-NHRA tracks for us. Either that or take a look at the 10 dragster chassis rules and see what we would have to do to meet those requirements. We can't even run on Grudge nights.

Sorry for the bad news guys....we tried.

Suggestions?

Ron

[Toymaker]

Thanks Ron for the effort, I'll get the 2008 NHRA Rule Book & put more thought into my ha/gr plans. I think there is a misprint in the 2007 rule book pertaining to the Rollcage specs, I mean all they show is 10.00 flat and slower:confused: Rocky

[Toymaker]

I guess throw a couple more (NHRA) bars in and build it! Rocky

[Mr. Mac]

Love your drawings Toymaker,looks like it's going to be killer.

[2b-banjo]

Does anyone have the specs that we need or must we buy a NHRA rule book???
Also will this affect the Indy Goodguys race?
And are the Gas rails going to this??

[Rand Man]

Those extra bars to more good than harm.

[Toymaker]

Those extra bars to more good than harm.
Yep, I know your right. I just need to remember to build it in the spirit of the "BUG" (O.E. parts as much as possible) and safe enough not to hurt (or worse) anyone. I think we (myself included) get too caught up in the look IMO. Rocky

[Toymaker]

Love your drawings Toymaker,looks like it's going to be killer.
Thanx Mr. Mac! Rocky

[Ron Golden]

When anyone gets their new 2008 NHRA rule book would they post the 10 second dragster chassis drawing so we can see what we're facing if we decide to go that route.

Thanks,

Ron

[bobw]

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh179/rwstillwater/zz.jpg
Here's the roll cage for 10.00 and slower front engine dragsters. Notice the driver seat is behind the rear axle. I doubt the changes for 2008 (this is from the 2007 rule book) are extensive. The rule book does not have plans for quicker cars. The builder has to buy plans from SFI in order to build the quick chassis. Those chassis must be certified whereas the 10.00 and slower ones do not need certification.

[Godzilla]

Ron,
I was shooting for hitting the rules last year with this cage...I hope that it is still in the ball park for the 2008 class rules. Zilla

415689 LOOK LIKE NO BASED ON THE ABOVE

[Mr. Mac]

I have a reel hard time with the extra bars. I know its for safety but it will kill the spirt of this class. If you have to put the all the bars in to meet the rules for a 10sec class why not just build an altered.
Use one of them good cheap V8 chev motors(alot cheaper to build than a 6cyl or flathead) and be done with it.

[Toymaker]

bobw, could you post the Specs for the Altereds, Funny Cars? They seem to fit our build better IMO, I tried but you do it so much better:D
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh179/rwstillwater/zz.jpg
Here's the roll cage for 10.00 and slower front engine dragsters. Notice the driver seat is behind the rear axle. I doubt the changes for 2008 (this is from the 2007 rule book) are extensive. The rule book does not have plans for quicker cars. The builder has to buy plans from SFI in order to build the quick chassis. Those chassis must be certified whereas the 10.00 and slower ones do not need certification.

[Toymaker]

I have a reel hard time with the extra bars. I know its for safety but it will kill the spirt of this class. If you have to put the all the bars in to meet the rules for a 10sec class why not just build an altered.
Use one of them good cheap V8 chev motors(alot cheaper to build than a 6cyl or flathead) and be done with it.
I do agree about the bars, but I guess if I want to play it has to be NHRA 's way out here.

[mudflap261]

Go To The Altered Section We Are About A /e Altered You Will Still Have Todo The Bars

[moparsled]

I have a reel hard time with the extra bars. I know its for safety but it will kill the spirt of this class. If you have to put the all the bars in to meet the rules for a 10sec class why not just build an altered.
Use one of them good cheap V8 chev motors(alot cheaper to build than a 6cyl or flathead) and be done with it.

YEP! looks like it's clandestine test runs and Mokan only for me. I'm building a HA/GR, not an NHRA/GR. Nothing on my build changes as of now.

[bobw]

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh179/rwstillwater/6-1.jpg
Here's both, front engine dragster & Altered. They both don't reflect the HA/GR aesthetic. If I lived in HA/GR country, I would build one to meet current HA/GR rules and run at the tracks you guy have that welcome them.

[Old6rodder]

Sorry to hear it Ron, you gave it an honest try.

After long consideration our team's decided to decline NHRA's rules (and their self induced financial dilemma) and run where & when we might. HA/GR means more to us than just the car. If it never goes "mainstream" that's OK, there're advantages to that as well. And if it goes mainstream in a form acceptable to them we doubt it'll maintain anything we were interested in up front.

Since NHRA's succeeded at chasing the money, others (as always) are now chasing the money they have. Now they have to try to keep it, and they'll sacrifice the sport to that effort. It's no more or less than what they're already doing and we have no interest in "Dragsneyland". Their own rule book says it: "resemble '60s drag racing". Only the resemblence of it, not the spirit of the thing.
Those who only want a picture of our history, but with airbags, are welcome to it. We have no quibble with others' fears and desires. They just aren't ours.

All said, for us it really is a rekindling of the spirit.

And of course we'll catch a ration or two of lip for our opinions. So be it, they stood then and they stand today.

[Ron Golden]

To put it as plain as possible....NHRA can kiss my ass. I tried, but as always, big business won out over grass roots. They seem to have forgotten what made NHRA big in the beginning.

Mokan, Osborn, Mo. and Tulsa for starts.

See you guys on the starting line.

Ron

[FiddyFour]

To put it as plain as possible....NHRA can kiss my ass.




yaknow, when i first read that NHRA was even thinking about allowing ha/gr chassis to run, i was pretty stoked about it. now after seeing what they want to turn the cars into with the chassis and cage rules... screw em. better words cannot be spoken.

lets have FUN with these things. see you all in MOKAN in august


Wisconsin is gonna have PLENTY of HA/GR cars representing shortly... :D

[QQMOON]

Welcome to our world thats what we had to do to be able to race

QQ

[Rand Man]

I don't like the NHRA cage for these cars, but safety makes sense when I think about putting my son in the driver's seat. I designed my car with a second hoop in mind, but I'm on the fence. A lot of changes to our current rail is a lot of effort and expense. Might as well build a new car. I'm like Mac though; "I coulda hada (OHV) V8" for the bucks.

If someone had the talent. The NHRA spec cage could be hidden underneath cool bodywork. Do you remember the "Glass Slipper"?

[348chevy]

A Glass Slipper type car would be a great looking car and would not be a slingshot. But I already have twice as much in this HA-GR than what I had planned on and I don't have the talent to make a body so it would have to be farmed out. I may still put an extra roll bar on the car just for my own peace of mind. I really wanted to go to Bakersfield next March for the 50th anniversery of the Fuel and Gas Championships. I will probably go any way just not take the dragster. NHRA has always been a planned corporation from the start. Wally Parks wanted to have something like Bill France had with Nascar. It is a show that fans pay Billions to watch just like baseball, football and the racers are the players. We can't play because we can only play in the pros and amateurs need not apply. We need to really support the maverick tracks or we will not have a place to race.:(Roy

[Mr. Mac]

Now your talking guys. I have been politely trying to say for some time Screw NHRA and the horse they road up on.
We can run Mokan twice a year and your welcome to come to Tulsa.
I feel for the Calif guys, but surely you guys can find an outlaw track there somewhere.

[Joe Hamby]

I am thinking about a 170mph drag bike, is that the cage that I will need, in nhra they even have a listing for snow mobil's, is this the cage for them? I guess that you noticed that I don't use capital letters for nhra. Joe

N o
H A M B
R a c i n g
A l l o w e d

[Mr. Mac]

I am thinking about a 170mph drag bike, is that the cage that I will need, in nhra they even have a listing for snow mobil's, is this the cage for them? I guess that you noticed that I don't use capital letters for nhra. Joe

N o
H A M B
R a c i n g
A l l o w e d

Way to go Joe.:D

[Yo Baby]

Man,what a bummer for you guys.I definitely feel your pain.
Ardmore is going to open next month with a new owner and a new return road and at least 1 nostalgia gig.
I'm sure Rick Carrol will be exercising Johnnies common sense approach to racing for the most part.
I can almost guarantee you'll be welcome there,although I realize it's a long tow for most of you guys.

That's funny Joe!

[Tman]

too bad NHRA cannot see the light.

[64 DODGE 440]

Now your talking guys. I have been politely trying to say for some time Screw NHRA and the horse they road up on.
We can run Mokan twice a year and your welcome to come to Tulsa.
I feel for the Calif guys, but surely you guys can find an outlaw track there somewhere.

Unfortunately, "The Peoples Republic of California" has no outlaw tracks, (and they wonder why they have problems with street racing).

Won't stop those "hard core" among us, but it's really gonna add to the costs for us to be able to run our cars.:D

I must admit that it makes the idea of a body, rear suspension and off center steering have some merit. What is the requirement for roll bars in a 10 or 12 second coupe or roadster?

[REJ]

Joe, you will not need a roll bar on 170mph bike!:eek:
I ran a comp eliminator bike at 165mph and 8:50 et and all I was required to have were full leather suit, gloves and an up to date helmet.
If you run on a test and tune night with the HA/GR's, I have never had a problem. So it looks like I run test/tune nights and the HAMB drags with mine. Hopefully they will let us run at Indy this year, as I might be able to make that one also.
Robert

[Kerry]

This isn't a HA/GR thing but I think it fits.

I'm gathering goodies to build a Dragmaster Dart styled rail. The issue of how to build the chassis haunts me. The local outlaw track is now an NHRA deal. The question is do I build the chassis to meet NHRA specs or build it the way they used to (with thicker steel of course) and add a few things for safety that won't mess up the look. That's the way I'm leaning today but I keep waffleing. I guess I should follow your lead and build her traditional.

[Ron Golden]

Joe,
Point well made.......maybe we should show up in leathers. I'm sure there is some logic to nhra's thinking. Nah, logic doesn't enter into this picture.

You know what I'm going to do....write a letter to nhra (small letters) and ask for a logical explanation based on Joe's reasoning. It won't do a damn thing except make me feel better, but it will be interesting to see what they have to say, if they even answer.

I'm still pissed...they could have at least let us run the 1/8th mile.

Ron

[Toymaker]

When anyone gets their new 2008 NHRA rule book would they post the 10 second dragster chassis drawing so we can see what we're facing if we decide to go that route.

Thanks,

Ron
Ron, Got my '08 NHRA Rule book 2day and it appears the same as '07. Rocky

[CrkInsp]

Just a - what ever.
They (nhra) don't build airplanes, so, logic don't fly with them.

[bobw]

It's hard to get through nhra's Big 3: Lawyers, Insurance Carriers and $$$$.
They have a successful business right now, why take any chances on supporting real drag racing by home builders?

[Oilcan Harry]

I can't say I'm surprised. NHRA-[Never Have Rational Answers] has done everything it can do to kick the hobbiest out of the sport. Today's drag racing is boring to me. Personaly I think they would like to dump all the classes that don't generate TV coverage. Its never interested me since they killed off the gassers, fuel altereds, and the modified production classes. The gas rails were the first flash of interest for me in several decades. Nope, we don't want anything that doesn't cost a hundred grand or more to build, and eliminates even the possibilty of someone getting a splinter.
So lets see if I understand this, we have towns with cruise-ins that have huge burnouts exhibitions, in public, with no barriers that go bad and injure people or worse, but we are so dangerous at 12 seconds and 100 MPH that we can't run on a real track with full concrete walls. Figures. Time to print up the NHRA sucks stickers.

[Toymaker]

I think Ryan could be the next Wally Parks, he has people in numbers start an grass root Association (non profit naturally, but with a comfortable salary) all over again. What do ya think?:D

[Ron Golden]

I want a NHRA SUCKS sticker.

Ron

[nexxussian]

I want a NHRA SUCKS sticker.

Ron


I'll take one too please.

BTW how long has it been known as

No
Hot
Rods
Allowed ?:confused:

[Kerry]

Somebody was looking for this?

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w248/Kerry_097/nhrarail.jpg

[dynosam]

I recently joined HAMB and the HA/GR program sparked my interest. I read your rules and after reading this post, I say, long live the HNRA (Hamb Nostalgic Racing Association). I think safe cars can be built as long as the speed stays porportional to the chassis requirements. (common sense) I want to attend a race to see if my design is correct for the class. Thanks for the research and effort with the NHRA. Sam PS: I always liked the AHRA.

[Ron Golden]

dynosam,

Welcome to the group. I think you'll find this group not only likes the 50's style dragsters, but has the same spirit that prevailed back then. We don't always agree, but we always try to keep moving the HA/GR's forward.

By the way, I do all the dyno testing/tuning at a machine shop here in Raytown, Missouri. (suburb of Kansas City). Do you dyno also?
Ron

[alteredpilot]

guys...

here's the thing...

everyone is trying to build non-slingshot dragsters...

the bug was not.

the bug had FULL suspension front and rear. read the NHRA rule book. everything CHANGES with suspension.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v364/alteredpilot/p154351_image_large.jpg

the combination of solid mount rear axle and center steer makes it either a dragster or altered depending on driver position. period. suspension changes EVERYTHING!

build to the rules. it will make life much easier.

like i've said before....

if i ever get mine done, it will be full suspension front and rear and registered on the street as a single seat modified. they CAN'T stop you from running and the rules change.

the Garlits era is over. you cannot go to war wit hthe NHRA. if you wanna run in california, build to the rules not to some chassis paradigm that someone NOT from california came up with.

[dutchtreat]

NHRA and there rules were the reason I sold my old front engined rail. I had a nice Anson fire suit but couldn't use it--becouse of the rules. When I talked to the NHRA tec guy he said there wasn't any thing wrong with the old Anson suit--except Anson was no longer around--so NHRA ruled you couldn't use them. It was explained as Deep pocket! I built my car to run in the high 8's and then when NHRA ruled that the chassis had to be sonic checked that was ok as it was made with thick wall tube. But then the guys doing the sonic check wanted the chassis stripped to bare metal. Well that ment at least 500 bucks to soda blast the car and then hale it to the sonic check and hope it doesn't rain (open trailer). So I sold the car instead of slowing it down to run 10's. Also with out a floor over the tranmission(built C-4) I would have also had to buy the same type of fire suit that Funny Car drivers wear--for a front engined 10 sec. bracket rail! Back then (12years ago) that suit was over $800.00!!
So I say tell NHRA to stick it were the sun do not shine!! IHRA and out low tracks for me!!

[Rand Man]

Alteredpilot, I think you are right. The first three HAMB rails were built without a rule book. If you need to run at an NHRA track, you'ed better build a modified. The orange Ausise rail comes to mind. It can have a very minimal body. Maybe even a bolt-in cage.

A multi-purpose race car could be very cool. I woke up this morning dreaming about my vintage dirt circle '27 T modified project. Dreaming and gathering a few parts is about all I have done on that one. Now if I were able to race it on dirt and the drags. . . Maybe I could buzz around town now and then. . . I think in the early days a guy woud drive is roadster to the track, strip it down and drag it out. We could do the same.

I know that if you really want to win races then build a full race car, no comprimises. On the other hand, if the other if the other cars in the local field also have these same comprimises, then the field is level.

[bobw]

Please help the ignorant (me). Altered Pilot, what is a Modified??? Can't seem to find it in my 2008 NHRA rulebook.

[Rand Man]

Do you know what a "T Bucket" looks like? The term "modified" comes from circle track racing lingo. If the wheelbase has been changed, the trunk cut off, top chopped, engine setback, etc, the car has been "modified", therefore it couldn't run in the "stock" class.

[Rand Man]

You won't find the term "modified" used to describe a class in the NHRA rulebook. It's just a hot rodder term used to describe something like this photo. His point was that you should use suspension and not put the steering wheel in the center. It should resemble a little roadster. Some call this a "Lakes Modified" because similar styles of stripped down jalopies were raced on the dry lakes and salt flats, in the early days.

[FiddyFour]

Please help the ignorant (me). Altered Pilot, what is a Modified??? Can't seem to find it in my 2008 NHRA rulebook.

aint "ignorant"... just uninformed. the only dumb questions are asked by me :eek: :p

[alteredpilot]

karl orr's lakes modified.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v364/alteredpilot/496906-karlorrsmodified.jpg

its basically the bug with a body. add a set of headlights and you've got a street legal car.

t-buckets and dune buggies can run down the strip. even center steer or 'off center steer' (think about that for a minute) versions.

[64 DODGE 440]

I'm with you on this Mitch. Already have the offset planned on the seating and steering, just need to figure out the rear suspension design I want to go with. They don't really say just how much travel constitutes "suspension" do they? Next question I'm pondering.......Do we need a door and must the bodywork be "production based", or can it be one off? Also do we need to have the vehicle street registered? A lot of "dune buggies" aren't.

[Rand Man]

Christman's famous drag rail ran on the dry lakes in the 1930's, before it was stretched and before drag racing was invented. I think maybe the body was used on a dirt circle modified before that.

[bobw]

I know what a modified is. I have a 27 T modified, an Anglia, a 406 powered Crosley wagon and a few other cars. I am referring to the 2008 NHRA rule book where there is no mention of a modified class for anything resembling a T bucket. I have drag raced beginning in 1957, helped on a C/Gas car that won the Nats in the mid 60's. Ran a 33 Willys and a Thames for brief periods of time in the mid to late 60's. What I'm driving at is there is no reference to "modifieds" as a drag race entity in the NHRA rule book. So, lets say I want to run my '27 Modified roadster at a NHRA track. What would be required? Accoring to my reading of the rule book they would call it an Altered. That would mean I need to meet all the requirements, including an Altered cage, which if you look at the rule book is for center steer frames and not for a 2 seat street driven roadster. The local NHRA track (Brainerd) wouldn't let me run the Fiat, which has a 12 point cage, and all the requirements set forth in the rule book. I got to run 1/8 mile once but they said don't bring it back for a regular program because it is an Altered but not with an Altered center steer chassis and roll cage. By the way it is street legal and fully suspended.

[bobw]

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh179/rwstillwater/4.jpg
Here's the Fiat.

[KING CHASSIS]

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh179/rwstillwater/4.jpg
Here's the Fiat.
That car is BAD ASS!!!

[alteredpilot]

bob...

there is no 'modified' class.

look in the E.T. handicap racing section in the front of the book.

section 1A:4, and 1A:7 (pages 20 and 22 in the '07 book) have the info.



on your altered...
how fast were you planning on running it and in what class?

[bobw]

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh179/rwstillwater/9-2.jpg
Here's the chassis. Chris Alston cage. Best 1/8 mile is 7.52 @ 93mph. Leaving at idle shift @4,500. 87 octane engine. Room for improvement. 6.99 1/8 mile is considered 10.99 1/4 mile. The Fiat was considere an 'open-bodied' car because of the roof and no doors. In the General Regulations 4 options for 'open-bodied' cars; rear engine dragsters, front engine dragsters, street roadsters and altereds. Each has a very specific requirement for the roll cage, none ofwhich are a typical roll bar or closed car cage. An I correct in believing the General Regulations apply to all cars including those running brackets?

[alteredpilot]

the general regulations apply to any car that REQUIRES that it meet the spec regardless what class.

'open body' is open for debate.
section 1A:7 says may be chopped, channeled, sectioned, streamlined, etc. fiberglass body permitted. must have two driver exits. doesn't say anything about doors being mandatory. as i see it your car has 3 driver exits. the top and two windows.

under section 1A:4 it calls for a 'roll bar' for a 'convertible' (yours is really a 'sunroof' but 'open' none the less) that runs 7.0 to 8.25.

now under general regs 4:10 your chassis actually EXCEEDS the spec. diagram.

in my opinion, you got hosed at brainerd. that's one of them things where you hand 'em the book and make 'em show you or prove you wrong.

just for giggles...
here's a link to jim higby's t bucket. it looks pretty similar in construction to yours and he has NO problem at the NHRA tracks out here.
http://jameshigbyengineering.com/Jim's%20Cars.html

[bobw]

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh179/rwstillwater/2007_0808bing0154.jpg
Last summer I replaced the Fiat body with a Crosley Wagon body. Now I have doors and I passed tech at Brainerd. Got rained out though. Yep, if Jim Higby can run, I should have been able to run the Fiat. Sorry to consume so much space with this issue. I hope it was somewhat helpful in understanding NHRA and their rules.

[alteredpilot]

funny...
there's two guys with crosley wagon bodies that run in our group...

this whole time i was thinking about thier cars because they're both center steer but DON'T have a funny car cage. one runs 12's the other a bit faster.

the problem with all of this is that often its left to the discretion of the tech inspector who may be at odds with the opinion of the division tech director (Who's never there when you need him).

i always start there so i have ammo before heading to the track...

[Rand Man]

Bob, This is just the type of discussion that leads to answers. You know your stuff.

[vectorsolid]

It's been over 7 months, and apologize for surfacing an older thread. But it's still topical, and rather than start a new thread with the same stuff in it, here we go. Easier to find if it's all in one spot. And we have a whole additional season under our belts now.

I read the whole thread again.

What part of the HA/GR car needs to be changed to get out of the 10 second dragster classification?

I read mention of "suspension changes everything".. Well that's great.. LIKE WHAT? I'm getting old, our return lane sucks, I'm planning on some rear suspension anyway. nice high arch leaf.

I read that doors would help. I think I could whip up a nice tiny door you'd barely see. So what, it's part of the fun of the build.

I read one thread where an inspector mentioned that a piece of the roll bar, at the very least had to be bolted in. I don't know if that's accurate, but stuff that's bolted on, that can get you through tech is a positive compromise in my opinion.

For the guys that are interested (and not all of us are, I've read that too), what changes need to be made to make the cars breeze through NHRA tech? And how can we make these changes look good on these cars?

What does an NHRA legal HA/GR look like? What's the build spec? There's some compromise here somewhere. I'd like to see what it is. But I'm not smart enough to know what it is. :) That's where you guys come in.

Anybody have an NHRA legal, HA/GR car we can look at?

I've watched 2-3 good build threads and most guys had drivable cars in 2-3 weeks. You don't have years into it, or $50k... Fix it. I'm really of the opinion that 4 very skilled guys, in a good shop, could knock an HA/GR car out on a long weekend. So let's make a few small changes "in the spirit off drag racing". I'm a fabricator, let's build the damn thing already. ;)

My main fab/rod buddy is gonna be back next week. I'm perfectly willing to build this one NHRA legal and we can dissect it and see if it can be made more in the spirit of the bug, AND nhra legal.

I really don't care. Let's get some parameters and tweak it. The "spirit" is still there folks. people want to do this. to bitch about nhra rules at their track is like complaining that your buddy makes you take your shoes off in his house... and you don't at yours.

THIS is the "spirit" of drag racing. (at least to me it is.) Crowd loves it, we had a good time, and it's all we talk about... I need new tires now though... :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39wp2RmTgqM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHElHPqkO7g


....

[64 DODGE 440]

"What does an NHRA legal HA/GR look like? What's the build spec? There's some compromise here somewhere. I'd like to see what it is. But I'm not smart enough to know what it is. That's where you guys come in."

Just take an NHRA Funny car, remove the body and put a '55 chevy 6 in it with 6" bias ply treaded tires on the back and they should be happy.

[bobw]

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=271448

Look at FalconGasser's altered and imagine it with a flathead or inline and with a HA/GR body. His altered meets NHRA's 9.99 or slower altered requirements.

[Old6rodder]

Perhaps an NHRA rulebook would be a useful purchase for building to NHRA specs?
Simply build to suit the bracket catagory most befitting your car. Then to NHRA you're driving a bracket car and there's no quibble.

[vectorsolid]

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=271448

Look at FalconGasser's altered and imagine it with a flathead or inline and with a HA/GR body. His altered meets NHRA's 9.99 or slower altered requirements.

Did, very cool. I like it. What's the major beef about an HA/GR compared to this altered. I see a LOT of similarity in the build. Is there a less complicate way to do a build to say 12.50 and slower?

Perhaps an NHRA rulebook would be a useful purchase for building to NHRA specs?
Simply build to suit the bracket catagory most befitting your car. Then to NHRA you're driving a bracket car and there's no quibble.

Agreed, and ordered one (we're IHRA up here). The part I'm familiar with is racing Sport Compact, you want to hammer those rules home I can help :). The issue is that I don't know what to call it and what I'm looking for in comparison to Altered, dragsters, bracket car, etc. I'm not against doing the research... I just don't yet know what you guys have already figured out. And that is, where we don't fit and what makes tech directors bitch.. I don't know that. :o

[bobw]

Old6rodder, I tried that with my Fiat. No go. If you could get by that way, then all kinds of early dragster chassis would be used in the slower brackets without retrofits. They don't care if your altered or FED runs 9.99 or 19.99, the general regulations are the same. If you have a roof and doors the requirements for brackets are less demanding. At least, that's my experience.

[vectorsolid]

Old6rodder, I tried that with my Fiat. No go. If you could get by that way, then all kinds of early dragster chassis would be used in the slower brackets without retrofits. They don't care if your altered or FED runs 9.99 or 19.99, the general regulations are the same. If you have a roof and doors the requirements for brackets are less demanding. At least, that's my experience.

Does the hard-tail have anything to do with it?

[budssuperpro]

Yeah, you're no more than a snot nosed shin biter. Don't you realise that I don't trust anyone under 60?

MAN, I couldn't resist THAT one ........ :D. Thanks Moparsled, I always appreciate a good set-up line.


Seriously, I can field that sealed tank question as we had to address it. What they mean is "unable to vent gas out in the event of a turnover". We added a light spring loaded ball-check to our cap, it vents in under "draw" and closes off under pressure. Lots of the cars run a coiled vent tube that simply gives the gas too long a way out to sweat it.

I believe the pressurized tank concept is what they're not comfortable with as it would spray fuel rather than sucking air should it even get pin holed, as would the lines too.

There's no reason you couldn't set up both systems "in series" and switch off a discrete electric pump when you want to use the "hand job". Perhaps add a ball valve to shut it off for NHRA tracks?
================================================== =====
ya the coiled vent tube is what I run in 1/4 inch id any smaller and I starve the injection . I use about 4 1/2 to 5 gals of alka in a run.

[alteredpilot]

vectorsolid....

there is no such thing as an NHRA legal HA/GR because as far as NHRA is concerned, the HA/GR does not exist. WHY, you ask? because its not in their book. this style of car does not meet ANY of the current NHRA classifications for dragster, altered, dune buggy, convertible or door car.

the only reason Old6rodder and toymakers cars go down track is because the tech guys at Famoso have a shred of common sense. your track may differ.

if you build something according to the NHRA rule book, its not an HA/GR anymore. thats what is so sticky about the whole deal.

[Old6rodder]

the only reason Old6rodder and toymakers cars go down track is because the tech guys at Famoso have a shred of common sense.

And they're knowledgeable enough to help out with advice pertaining to our individual applications rather than simply down-checking us. We regularly hear the phrase "in your unique situation, you could try this ....... ". We've already instituded several of'em and will be adding two more (from last weekend's good advice) over the winter.

[vectorsolid]

if you build something according to the NHRA rule book, its not an HA/GR anymore. thats what is so sticky about the whole deal.

I'll argue with ya, but it's for fun. :)

There is no blueprint associated with the word "spirit" in the HA/GR guidelines.

There are no wheelbase, width, height, weight or color requirements. As far as I can tell, there is no spot that says, "make it look EXACTLY like this". It's about the "spirit of the bug", not exact carbon copy of it.

That Spirit thing is gonna mean different things to different people.

[vinniez]

I have to agree with victorsolid. I was over at Fomoso this last weekend and had a chance to meet and talk with Toymaker I believe. He handed me the rule sheet and we discussed the car. After doing some reading the past couple of days I thought I might chime in on this a little. This is just my opinion and am not trying to tell you all how to do it. It seems that some have a problem with not being able to run their cars because of the NHRA rules. Bottom line it that back in the 50s life was a lot simpler and people were not so quick to lay blame onto somebody else ( lawsuits). All the track owners are trying to do is keep the few tracks that are left open for us to be able to race our cars. With that being said the rule that stands out to me is #25. The car must be built in the sprit of the “Bug” and other early rail jobs. So what does this mean? What comes to my mind is build a low budget car out of basically the scraps left laying around and then being able to race it on a very small budget. I know that I am going to piss off some here but I do not think that building a NHRA approved roll cage is taking away from the looks of the car.

[348chevy]

And I couldn't agree with you more. Do we build a car that is true to the spirit and look at it in our garage until mid August and make the trip to MO-KAN or do we give a little in the looks dept. and build it so we can run it at other tracks all year long? It is all in what you want in life. I have many friends who build cars and want to only polish them and look at them, they are works of art. I am just a guy who likes the race. I want my car to resemble an early rail in every way it can. I also would like to race that car against like cars. It is not winning or losing just racing. I loved racing 2B Banjo the 3 times I lost to him and loved the one time I beat him. 2B and Cowboy Bob make 1200 mile trips down here to race so the racing part must be a part as well as the looks. Single hoop roll bars look good but there were a lot of drag racers killed in the 60's and you can get killed at 80 mph just as well as 200mph. :(Roy

[2b-banjo]

I totally agree with "348chevy", I don't have to add to that!!! Part of what prompted me to add a 2nd roll bar (besides being able to race after traveling any distance) was seeing Cowboy Bob's crash at MoKan last yr. He hit the guard rail head on, went air borne for a bit. If he would rolled & got the front portion of the car over upside down & skidded along, with only the 1 bar, he would not be here today.
Since putting on the 2nd bar I have not heard 1 negative comment except here, so if you only want 1 bar, do it, I don't want my face ripped off. I try to run all the engine parts that are the spirit of the "Bug", but safety & being allowed to run my rail prevail.

[Toymaker]

I totally agree with "348chevy", I don't have to add to that!!! Part of what prompted me to add a 2nd roll bar (besides being able to race after traveling any distance) was seeing Cowboy Bob's crash at MoKan last yr. He hit the guard rail head on, went air borne for a bit. If he would rolled & got the front portion of the car over upside down & skidded along, with only the 1 bar, he would not be here today.
Since putting on the 2nd bar I have not heard 1 negative comment except here, so if you only want 1 bar, do it, I don't want my face ripped off. I try to run all the engine parts that are the spirit of the "Bug", but safety & being allowed to run my rail prevail.
Well said, I'm glad I'm not the only one that see's it this way, Rocky

[alteredpilot]

Does the hard-tail have anything to do with it?

has everything to do with it.
according to nhra, if it has a solid mounted rear axle it has to be either a dragster, funny car or altered and as such, it has to meet their chassis specs.

[sgtmcd42]

the roll bar argument is funny.....the bug didn't even have one!:eek::D

[vectorsolid]

Well said, I'm glad I'm not the only one that see's it this way, Rocky

You ain't the only one. ;)

[Rand Man]

I believe that posting photos of injured drivers is inappropriate in this forum. I am an advocate of safety, but I'd rather not look at that photo.

[alteredpilot]

I believe that posting photos of injured drivers is inappropriate in this forum. I am an advocate of safety, but I'd rather not look at that photo.

agreed.
i've seen enough in real life.

[vectorsolid]

agreed.
i've seen enough in real life.

Thought about it, took the photo down. Was just putting a pic with a discussion. I thought it was pertinent to the discussion. Guy was okay, BTW. Pic was of a guy in a rolled car and they were trying to get him out. He was fine. Nothing gory. Just made a person think. Well, made me think anyway.

My apologies if it was taken in any way that wasn't with the best of intentions.

[vinniez]

Well with all this said lets just go out and build those cars. The more that show up the better. It is all about the race and what happens after the race. I myself have found that camping out in the pits sometimes is the best part.

[vinniez]

Oh one outher thing. I am looking for a front axle. I have never played with a split wishbone but I am willing to learn. I have a 230 6, a 10 bolt and three 3 speeds in my back yard right now.

[Ron Golden]

Our car is running over 120 MPH and should be even faster after I get it tweaked next spring. That's fast enough to warrant a double bar, regardless of what anyone else thinks. I'm sure all of us involved in the HA/GR movement would feel awful if one of our cars got on it's top and the driver was hurt or killed because it only had a single roll bar. I personally don't want to have someone meet a "spirit" just to be in the "spirit" of the class.

Ron

[FiddyFour]

yea... gettin killed in a single hoop car keeps you in the spirit... BEING a spirit and running on God's quarter mile

all of the wisconsin HA/GR cars (breeders chassis included) have a double hoop, and i kinda like that warm fuzzy thought that my brain pan is safe and sound inside the confines of that second ring of steel tubing

[vectorsolid]

has everything to do with it.
according to nhra, if it has a solid mounted rear axle it has to be either a dragster, funny car or altered and as such, it has to meet their chassis specs.

The NHRA guy I talked to said it had more to do with an open cockpit than anything.

[alteredpilot]

The NHRA guy I talked to said it had more to do with an open cockpit than anything.

if it had an open cockpit like a t bucket, or dune buggy (4 couner suspension) it would be a slam dunk.

like i said before, and i'll say it again, because i know how NHRA tech works...if it aint in the book, its gonna be rough.

[vectorsolid]

if it had an open cockpit like a t bucket, or dune buggy (4 couner suspension) it would be a slam dunk.

like i said before, and i'll say it again, because i know how NHRA tech works...if it aint in the book, its gonna be rough.

Rather than speculate, here's what an NHRA tech and I have been emailing.

Here's his stuff to me. I merely want to know how to get my car on the track. I'm not here to second guess anybody.

(From the guy)

"...The first thing that comes to mind is the chassis itself. Even though it does not run that quick it still must meet some minimum criteria.

Based on the design it would be classed as an “altered” chassis. As such, the illustration/s for what is required is detailed on page 82 of the 2008 NHRA Rule Book which includes vehicles with an altered chassis running 10.00 and slower. Other specific details are outlined on pages 77 through 84.

As far as the other safety requirements they would be based on the E.T. and/or MPH performance of the car.

Have a look at the rule book with regards to these chassis requirements and then let me know if you have any further questions.

(next letter) I just asked what the difference between dragster and altered was.

"...The major difference between how we classify the chassis is where the rear-end is located. If it is in front of the driver it is a dragster; if it is behind the driver it is an altered..."

(next letter) I mentioned I thought the handbrake was hokey..

"...The hand brake is OK to use. If any of them also use a foot brake then the two need to be connected so they both operate together.

Do you know what the weight of these cars? If they are under 2350 pounds with a wheelbase of 100” or more the suspension is optional. If they are heavier than 2350 then the front needs to have one shock for each sprung wheel.
Either way the rear suspension can be rigid...."

(Next letter)

"...Based on what I have read in your rules (I sent him the rules), the driver suit requirements are as
follows:

1- Full-faced helmet with face shield meeting Snell 2000 or later.
2- Head sock or skirt on helmet or neck collar to cover the skin area of the
driver's throat.
3- SFI jacket meeting 3.2A/1 minimum.
4- SFI gloves meeting 3.3/1 minimum.
5- Arm restraints.

The driver's safety gear is based on a number of things such as E.T. and
MPH, however they are also based on the body style, type of fuel, firewall
material, etc. Open bodied cars do require more gear at lesser E.T. and
MPH.

Also please note that the cage/chassis as shown in the pictures does not
meet all of the minimum requirements of the NHRA Rule Book for 10.00 and
slower altereds. You may already have seen this but if not you need to
obtain a copy of the rule book and reference the sections I referred to
earlier...."

-Vector

[alteredpilot]

what you have to understand is that these ARE NOT NHRA 'LEGAL" vehicles. the whole concept was to run them on NON-NHRA tracks like the HAMB DRAGS at Mo-Kan.
you are never going to get NHRA proper to sign off on any of the ones that have been built so far. its been at the discretion of the individual track's tech crew to put them down the track. the current rules / guidelines are COMMON SENSE (based on guidelines set forth in the rulebook)

look...
Myself and many of the other guys have been going around and around on this subject for 3 years. you'll never get the kind of answers you're looking for unless you build a by the book NHRA car. we've all determined that the best approach is to leave the NHRA tech officials at the division office out of it.

so your four options are:
1) build an NHRA approved dragster or altered with an appropriate HA/GR driveline
2) build what you want in the spirit of the Bug using the NHRA rulebook as a guideline and hope the track officials have enough common sense to let it go
3) build some other thing that is right on the ragged edge of a current NHRA classification and run in in the HA/GR category.
4) stay away from NHRA tracks.

[vectorsolid]

5) Build your HA/GR car as era correct as you are able, and then get with your local tech and ask what he wants to see for bars. Including tech is MUCH easier while the build is going on. Some of us don't have the option of going somewhere else to race.

A car that's on the trailer in your garage does not do as good a job of "showing the people" as a car that's on the track in front of them. :)

A car that's run once a year at the hamb drags is only showing people that already know and "get it". People that haven't seen it before, whether one bar or two, are gonna think it's era correct, and THOSE people are who you're interested in spreading the gospel to... not the 15 other guys here that have knocked out a car. Or the other 200 that talk shit and haven't yet. (myself included)

The original bug had no bars at all. Was stick or gas welded and had a lap belt. It's okay to be safe

So far, I've noticed that the guys that have actually knocked out a car and taken it to the track are the ones doing the least amount of griping about the bar rules, and are the most relaxed and compromising about small items. they also seem to be the most friendly in debating ideas, and in helping others get on board.

I think it's like this. People that don't have kids have some VERY opinionated ideas on how OTHER people should raise their kids and how kids should behave in public... After having kids, you're more understanding, and your lofty goals of perfectionism are dropped to a more acceptable level. Before you have kids, "I can't believe people let their kids run around the mall like that..." After you have kids. "Honey, give the kids $20 so they can run down and get a cinnabon and get out of our hair...".. :)

[alteredpilot]

option 5 more often than not is the same as option number 1. when in doubt, the default is the NHRA rule book 99% of the time.

Old6Rodder built his first, using common sense guidelines, then got input from Famoso tech. NHRA tech would have NEVER approved the design in the first place. he's not running because NHRA says its OK, but at the discretion of the Famoso tech staff.

Toymaker's car is not 'NHRA LEGAL' either (Legal: within NHRA chassis classifications) although it is common sense and meets all of minimum requirements from a variety of classes. again, its at the discretion of the Famoso staff because they can see that its more than safe for a 15 second (excuse me, 14.8 second) car.

the majority of HA/GR's split the difference. anymore NHRA and they'd be altereds, any less NHRA and they cant run, but NONE that i've seen so far fit into any current NHRA chassis classification.

[vectorsolid]

the majority of HA/GR's split the difference. anymore NHRA and they'd be altereds, any less NHRA and they cant run, but NONE that i've seen so far fit into any current NHRA chassis classification.

I was of the mind that if they had to be put "somewhere" that the NHRA would consider the car an altered. And the more I read, the more I see altered more than dragster or rail. Mind you it's nitpicking. Plop one of these bodys on with 4 bolts and you can take it off and on in 4 minutes and call it what you like. ...lol...

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/eccStoreFront/product_images/900-949%204TH/900-2200_R.jpg

Yea, yea...yea... I know it's not an ha/gr... I'm trying to put perspective on it. call it what you like. It's all good. But I'm feeling an HA/GR to be more of an altered than a dragster. Just a feeling. And only because I don't know what the rest of the world considers a "dragster" to be. location of the driver and axle, length, etc. Most of the HA/GR cars are shorter than an altered, anywhere from say 6 to 24". 125" looks to be pretty common wheelbase for an altered.

Alteredpilot, at least speaking from my own fading brain perspective. It would be awesome if when you mentioned a dudes car and something about, just post a quick pic as refference. I spent 10 minutes looking for the car to see what you were talking about... ...lol... And if I might put you on the spot for a second. On toymakers car, the engine is to new, 1963 and the bars don't look period correct. Still an HA/GR car? Mine is likely to go down a similar path. I just hope it looks half as nice. :)

old6rodder:
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-1/1139091/MVC-008Fb.JPG

Toymaker One of my favorite cars and an EXCELLENT build thread.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=515196&d=1224044770

[bobw]

From the rulebook: Altered wheelbase from 90" to 125". In my opinion, the only way to build a NHRA legal HA/GR-looking car is to use frame rails, front suspension, etc. that are vintage in appearance, to the firewall. From the firewall rearward the car will have to have pipe that conforms to the rulebook for 10:00 and slower Altereds. The rear axle can be full width. The builder will have to skin the car from the firewall rearward so as to hide as much of the modern-looking structure and cage as possible. I believe most HA/GR enthusaists will find the appearance quite outside what was intended at the inception of the HA/GR idea. If I thought I could build one that was NHRA legal and looked right, I'd be in the garage right now instead of typing. If there are any designer-draftsmen with the right software out there in HA/GR land, why don't you try to design one?

[alteredpilot]

i think you're starting to see it.
the original idea was to build cars like the early rails you see in the inspirational post. they weren't dragsters or altereds. they were rails.

thing is NHRA has no classification for 'rail' - just altered or dragster.

according to NHRA , dragster or altered are determined by more than wheelbase and axle position. they are determined my the actual construction of the chassis as per their chassis book.

i think the aussies have it dialed. they just built a bunch of altereds with traditional front suspension and minimal bodies...even a t-bucket in the bunch.

[64 DODGE 440]

i think you're starting to see it.
the original idea was to build cars like the early rails you see in the inspirational post. they weren't dragsters or altereds. they were rails.

thing is NHRA has no classification for 'rail' - just altered or dragster.

according to NHRA , dragster or altered are determined by more than wheelbase and axle position. they are determined my the actual construction of the chassis as per their chassis book.

i think the aussies have it dialed. they just built a bunch of altereds with traditional front suspension and minimal bodies...even a t-bucket in the bunch.

That said the basic cars do sorta fit into the "Altered" class of cars, but the engine setback exceeds the altereds 25 percent in many cases.

Hence "Rails".

[bobw]

According to the 2008 NHRA rulebook, any engine setback is permitted in an Altered. (Page 192)
If you build an HA/GR that has the 9.99 and slower Altered roll cage, etc. it does not have to be built to SFI specs and does not have to be certified. It just needs to be built to the rule book. It will not be legal to run NHRA Comp. Eliminator because all Comp. Eliminator Altereds must have certified chassis built to SFI specs. It does however qualify to run E.T. Handicap racing in either Pro (7.50-13.99) or Sportsman (12.00-19.99). The one point of contention is an HA/GR does not have a rudimentary car body as required on an Altered. So you need to convince the Tech guy that it is a FED, old style, with the driver in front of the rear end. Or, that you forgot to put the Bantam body on that morning. Heck, it's bracket racing, who cares? If the HA/GR passes tech for all the safety stuff, it's hard to imagine that the difference between having a glass Bantam body or an aluminum wrap would keep you from being accepted. For those of us in areas where NHRA rules all the drag racing and the tracks strictly enforce the safety requirements, this might be the only way to have a (somewhat) early style rail that can be raced.

[Godzilla]

RODAN with single hoop and MAS glass Austin body...three years ago during the original build. Last picture is just before adding second bar to hoop.

[Toymaker]

On toymakers car, the engine is to new, 1963
It's a '62 144, REALLY:D

[Toymaker]

Toymaker's car is not 'NHRA LEGAL' either (Legal: within NHRA chassis classifications) although it is common sense and meets all of minimum requirements from a variety of classes. again, its at the discretion of the Famoso staff because they can see that its more than safe for a 15 second (excuse me, 14.8 second) car. Mitch, 14.65 Buddy:D

[alteredpilot]

Mitch, 14.65 Buddy:D

please to forgive...:o

[Toymaker]

please to forgive...:o
ok:D

[vectorsolid]

It's a '62 144, REALLY:D

And THAT is why I like ya. :) Nobody's gonna piss in your Wheaties and ruin you're day. :D A proper have fun attitude.

[alteredpilot]

It's a '62 144, REALLY:D
with a 3 spd. manual;)

[64 DODGE 440]

with a 3 spd. manual;)

And a big grin on Lee's face while he's bangin' the gears!!:D

[fridaynitedrags]

I think you single-hoop guys are trying to make this too complicated. These cars were never meant (the way I see it) to fall into a dragster or altered class if you're gonna run 12.00 or slower. Grab your 2009 NHRA Rulebook and look on page 60 at the bottom of the page, ROLL BAR. "....and in all dune buggy type vehicles running 12.00 and slower." Now, the way I see it, if a HA/GR rail job doesn't qualify as a "dune buggy type vehicle", then there ain't a cow in Texas.

This is under Section 4A of E.T. Handicap Racing and these are the rules we run by when doing weekend events where the track is being run by the track owner and NHRA has no part in the actual running of the event. The track still runs under NHRA rules, but there are no NHRA classes being run except E.T. Handicap Racing. We have everything running under these rules and the accompanying Advanced E.T. rules from 25.00 second Chevettes to 6.00 second Pro Mods and alcohol Funnys.

This rule section allows a minimum 5-point ROLL BAR, not a cage, in a "dune buggy type vehicle" going 12.00 seconds and slower, so ease up on the motor, build it for 12.00 or slower and have a ball. See the ROLL BAR diagram on page 262.

If you have any questions, ask me here or on a PM if you prefer. If you want to email me, it's mooremoore@live.com

Pull your horns in and tell the tech inspector it's a dune buggy. What the hell do you care what it's called from a technical standpoint as long as you get to run it legally. You and the inspector are the only ones who will know it teched as a dune buggy. The car will be legal at any NHRA track in the world.

Make note that the material required for a ROLL BAR is 1 3/4" O.D x 0.083" moly or x 0.118" mild steel. Assume that the tech inspector will measure the tubing diameter.

Richard Moore, SFI Silver Certification #S-86
Chief Technical Inspector
Firebird International Raceway
Chandler, AZ

[fridaynitedrags]

I posted the procedure for a ROLL BAR (as opposed to a ROLL CAGE) on the wiki in another forum. I'll copy and paste here so that you understand all the particulars....

2009 NHRA Rulebook, General Regulations 4:10 ROLL BARS: All roll bars must be within 6" of the rear, or side, of the driver's head, extend in height at least 3" above the driver's helmet with driver in normal driving position and be at least as wide as the driver's shoulders or within 1" of the driver's door. Roll bar must be adequately supported or cross-braced to prevent forward or lateral collapse. Rear braces must be of the same diameter and wall thickness as the roll bar and intersect the roll bar at a point not more than 5" from the top of the roll bar. Minimum angle of rear brace bars ("C" bars) 30 degrees from vertical. Crossbar and rear braces must be welded to main hoop "B" bar. Side-bar must be included on driver's side and must pass the driver at a point midway between the shoulder and elbow. Swing-out sidebar permitted. All roll bars must have in their construction a cross bar for seat bracing and as the shoulder harness attachment point. Cross bar must be installed no more than 4" below, and not above, the driver's shoulders or to the side bar. All vehicles with OEM frame must have roll bar welded OR BOLTED to frame. All 4130 chromoly tube welding must be done by approved TIG heliarc process; mild steel welding must be done by approved MIG wire feed or approved TIG heliarc process. Welding must be free of slag and porosity. Any grinding of welds prohibited. See illustration. Roll bar must be padded anywhere drivers helmet may contact it while in driving position. Adequate padding must have minimum 1/4-inch compression or meet S.F.I. Spec 45.1.

Now, let's examine the rule:
A. "All roll bars must be within 6" of the rear, or side, of the driver's head, extend in height at least 3" above the driver's helmet with driver in normal driving position and be at least as wide as the driver's shoulders or within 1" of the driver's door." Some fellows will build their roll bar only to protect the driver if their car is a purpose-built race car that will never have a passenger (unlike a car which will also be run on the street), so they build the bar to look sort of like a pyramid, except rounded on the top where it protects the driver's head. They will run the main hoop (B bar) up from the driver's side sill to the roof, make a half-circle around their helmet and then take the bar down to the sill at the other door instead of running it to the other side of the roof of the car and then down. The part of the rule that says "at least as wide as the driver's shoulders or within 1" of the drivers door" is meant for the "pyramid" guys. The part about being within 6 inches of the rear of the driver's head is to insure that the bar gets fragged before the driver's head. By the way, let's get the terminology in order. The main hoop is normally referred to as the "B" bar, as that's where the B pillar is on a production car. The windshield frame is the "A" pillar or A bar and the rear window frame is the "C" pillar.

B."Roll bar must be adequately supported or cross-braced to prevent forward or lateral collapse." Forward or rearward "lozenging" or collapse is prevented by the two diagonal (as viewed from the side of the car) bars (rear braces, also called "C" bars) which connect to the top of the B bar and run down to the tail end of the frame at the rear, forming a triangular support to the B bar when the car is viewed from the side. Lateral (sideways) collapse is prevented by the cross bar which runs from the left (or driver's side) of the B bar to the right (or passenger's side) of the B bar. This cross bar is installed at the driver's shoulder height with the driver seated in his/her driving position. It should be noted that many builders also install a diagonal bar (as viewed from the front or rear of the car) from the "B" bar corner at the driver's helmet down to the other side of the car at the bar end/floor to further prevent lateral failure.

C. " Rear braces ("C" bars) must be of the same diameter and wall thickness as the roll bar and intersect the roll bar at a point not more than 5" from the top of the roll bar." "Same diameter" means minimum 1 3/4" (1.750") "Same wall thickness means 0.118" for mild steel and 0.083" for chromoly "Not more than 5"....means do not move the rear braces over to the side of the car to the vertical part of the B bar any further down than 5" as measured from the top of the B bar. The closer to the top of the B bar these rear braces are, the better they can prevent the B bar from forward or rearward collapse (lozenging). Minimum angle from vertical on these rear brace "C" bars is 30 degrees as viewed from the side of the car.

D."Crossbar and rear braces must be welded to main hoop." The main hoop is normally called the B bar in tech lingo.

E. "Side-bar must be included on driver's side and must pass the driver at a point midway between the shoulder and elbow. Swing-out sidebar permitted." This bar welds at the intersection of the B bar/cross bar at the driver's left shoulder and runs downhill diagonally to a point near the driver's left foot. It's purpose is to keep the driver in the car in the event he/she is out of the belts. (Yep, it happens). If you're planning a swing-out side bar, get yourself a NHRA Rulebook. There are several ways to do it, all of them too lengthy to address here. Although the ROLL BAR will be legal as a 5-point bar, I would go ahead and add a sixth point to the installation as a "passenger side" side bar.

F. " All roll bars must have in their construction a cross bar for seat bracing and as the shoulder harness attachment point. Cross bar must be installed no more than 4" below, and not above, the driver's shoulders or to the side bar." CAUTION: DO NOT INSTALL THIS BAR UNTIL THE DRIVER IS SEATED IN THE CAR IN HIS/HER NORMAL DRIVING POSITION IN THE CAR..... AND...... DO NOT INSTALL THE SIDE BAR UNTIL THIS CROSS BAR IS IN PLACE. Maximum protection for the driver will be afforded by installing the cross bar with the top of the bar EVEN with the top of the driver's shoulders. That's why you don't want to weld this bar in until you have the driver in position. Now, with the cross bar in position, you can weld the driver's side bar in at the intersection of the B bar/cross bar and be assured the geometric line of pull will be proper on the shoulder belts and the side bar will be high enough to retain the driver in the car in the event of upset, passing the driver midway between the shoulder and the elbow on its way to the floor close to the driver's left foot as dictated in "E" above. If the shoulder belts are wrapped around the cross bar to attach them instead of bolting or welding a buckle to the crossbar to attach the belts, then some means of preventing the belts from sliding back and forth on the crossbar must be used. I usually tell the racers to bend a couple of pieces of 1/4 inch rod into a very shallow "U" (slightly wider than the belt) and weld them onto the back of the crossbar. You can then thread the belts through the "U" brackets and the belts will stay in place laterally on the crossbar.

G. " All vehicles with OEM frame must have roll bar welded OR BOLTED to frame. A HA/GR car does not have an OEM frame, but it is a frame as opposed to unibody construction.

H. " All 4130 chromoly tube welding must be done by approved TIG heliarc process; mild steel welding must be done by approved MIG wire feed or approved TIG heliarc process. Welding must be free of slag and porosity. Any grinding of welds prohibited." If you're not an expert welder, then for heaven's sake, hire a professional. It'll be the cheapest wages you'll ever pay for a nice roll bar installation. Nothing is cheezier than bird-crap welding and again, I've trailered more than one car for crappy welding. And don't even THINK about grinding any welds on the car. Hire a pro. If you fit up all the bars in the car and tack them in, the pro welder won't be there long doing a proper job.

I. "Roll bar must be padded anywhere drivers helmet may contact it while in driving position. Adequate padding must have minimum 1/4-inch compression or meet S.F.I. Spec 45.1." Whether you think so or not, seat and shoulder belts stretch when you're flippin' and rollin', so make sure you've covered all your bases here with every possible place your helmet could make contact with the bars.
There is no restriction on improving a rollbar into a rollcage, even though you must use 1 3/4" minimum diameter tubing for a rollbar and can use smaller 1 5/8" for the rollcage. Just build onto the existing rollbar material with your new 1 5/8" tubing. Also, there is no restriction on using 1 3/4" material for the entire rollcage. There is just a 1 5/8" minimum for a rollcage and 1 3/4" minimum for a rollbar. You could even use larger material if you want to, you just can't use smaller than the rules call for. Of course, there has been much hoopla about the choice between mild steel and chromoly. Mild steel is less expensive than chromoly and can be migged or tigged in. Chromoly is more expensive to buy and must be tigged in.

There was some discussion about stick welding the whole mess in. From a technical standpoint, I would have no problem with the cage being stick welded, as long as there is obvious penetration and no bird shit welds and no grinding. Just don't tell me about it and all will be fine. "Go race" would be my attitude. The problem with stick welding lies with the operator, not the process.

[Old6rodder]

WOW! That was the strongest deja vu in a looooong time. :D

Friday', you see it correctly. Would that our own techs were as logical. That's exactly the original concept and application of the class as intended years ago. They planned to mechanically hobble the cars to above 12 seconds for those very reasons. Thus the 6" bias tire and shortly thereafter the manual gearbox. Furthermore, should the class break 12s we intend to hobble it right back again, likely by knocking the tread width down 1/2" at a time as needed.

Unfortunately, our local techs refused to tech us as we'd expected and decreed us to fall into other classes. Thus our current situation.

Also, the extension of roll cage requirements to apply to "all" open cars. I believe in '07?

[butch nassau]

Hi Richard,

I'm on the board plugging in some pictures and reading stuff and I appreciate your input.

I would like to raise a point that may be lost in a technical discussion of roll bars, rules and such.

It's financial anxiety.

If someone, like myself, for instance, will have to tow nearly a 900 miles round-trip to race.

Then there is two nights on the road in motels...making reservations, hoping it doesn't rain...getting time off work... eight or nine restaurant meals...getting a dog sitter, explaining to the wife why we are "going so far" to race" and that "maybe they won't let us race because the roll bar or something isn't right., etc.

It is very hard to contemplate this undertaking hoping that the tech guy will view your car favorably and let you run.

You probably have the better part of a thousand bucks out-of-pocket by the time you arrive back home.

The only reasonable thing to do is build the cage to the "10.0 and slower" as the rules dictate.

Then you know that you can run it anytime and anywhere.

Thanks,

Butch

[Old6rodder]

A valid and workable conclusion for your situation. Build it, race it, enjoy it. After all, that is the point. :cool:

[bobw]

If NHRA would send a pic of a HA/GR car to every sanctioned drag strip with the explaination to tech it as a dune buggy type vehicle, if it runs over 12.00, then Butch's, my and every other builder's anxiety could be relieved.

Based on Ron Golden's efforts and on the Cal guy's experiences, NHRA isn't motivated to make this accomodation. Do we need to hire a lobbyist?:eek:

[fridaynitedrags]

Butch, I can appreciate your situation. It makes me just as red in the face to encounter a tech inspector who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground as it does for someone to try to pass off some crap on a car that I know isn't legal. I get just as fired up either way. It's right there in the Rulebook in black and white.

Any of you guys who plan to use a single hoop ROLL BAR and go 12.00 or slower might want to correspond with the track operator ahead of time. Explain the "dune buggy type vehicle" that is noted in the rules. Cite the rule specifically and where he can read it for himself (herself). It may not be a dune buggy, but it damned sure is a dune buggy "TYPE" vehicle. We have these home-built cars running around out here in the desert and have had for the last 35 years that I've lived in the Phoenix area.

If they try to classify it as a dragster, ask them "when is the last time you saw a dragster with a 58 inch rear track and 6 inch bias-ply street tires"????

[fridaynitedrags]

If NHRA would send a pic of a HA/GR car to every sanctioned drag strip with the explaination to tech it as a dune buggy type vehicle, if it runs over 12.00, then Butch's, my and every other builder's anxiety could be relieved.

Based on Ron Golden's efforts and on the Cal guy's experiences, NHRA isn't motivated to make this accomodation. Do we need to hire a lobbyist?:eek:
Bob, as I noted in my previous post, you guys need to correspond with the track operator ahead of time.

You should know though, that if any single hoop cars show up at Firebird, THEY'RE GONNA RACE (so long as the bar is installed correctly. Please read my installation instructions above in post 142).

For any who may wonder, I know Bob Blackwell and he knows me. We've worked several NHRA events together.

[Old6rodder]

"If they try to classify it as a dragster, ask them "when is the last time you saw a dragster with a 58 inch rear track and 6 inch bias-ply street tires"????
__________________
There is no sweeter sound in the world than that of a child laughing...:) "


:D
Not only do I like your tag line to begin with, but there's some real Freud in that one .... :cool:

[fridaynitedrags]

Posted by Old6rodder:
"Also, the extension of roll cage requirements to apply to "all" open cars. I believe in '07?"

I know of no such rule. All dune buggy type vehicles I have ever seen were open cars, yet the rule remains for them to go 12.00 and slower with a single hoop ROLL BAR. Again, it's right there in black and white in the 2009 NHRA Rulebook. You guys should come on down to Firebird.

[64 DODGE 440]

Posted by Old6rodder:
"Also, the extension of roll cage requirements to apply to "all" open cars. I believe in '07?"

I know of no such rule. All dune buggy type vehicles I have ever seen were open cars, yet the rule remains for them to go 12.00 and slower with a single hoop ROLL BAR. Again, it's right there in black and white in the 2009 NHRA Rulebook.

Not only do you think logically, you have a damn cool avatar!!:cool:

Would you consider moving to California for a season and helping us get the guys out here educated?:D

[butch nassau]

As we picture our cars going down the mythical drag strip of our mind we are always alone on the track or racing some other (slightly slower) hambster in the other lane.

But in real life I keep coming to line during time trials and look over into the other lane and see some young guy in a "74 Chevrolet with a big block, dual quads and a 5,000 stall converter just waiting to smack his 14" wrinkle-wall slicks.

Now, I can easily imagine that he decided to spend his money on a roller cam and still has the stock connecting rods from the initial build four years ago.

He's going to go three or four cars open on me and if the bottom end spits out in the top of low gear he may well be coming into my lane.

I dunno'...he has enough energy built up to turn me and my little car into a Hambster omlet along the Armaco.

Drag race have no "time outs".

As in ..."TIME OUT!"--I DIDN'T WANT TO BE HERE ".

All we have between us and the wall/car is some tubes and some .040 aluminum.

Jeeze-- I'm scaring the hell out of myself.

Butch

[fridaynitedrags]

As we picture our cars going down the mythical drag strip of our mind we are always alone on the track or racing some other (slightly slower) hambster in the other lane.

But in real life I keep coming to line during time trials and look over into the other lane and see some young guy in a "74 Chevrolet with a big block, dual quads and a 5,000 stall converter just waiting to smack his 14" wrinkle-wall slicks.

Now, I can easily imagine that he decided to spend his money on a roller cam and still has the stock connecting rods from the initial build four years ago.

He's going to go three or four cars open on me and if the bottom end spits out in the top of low gear he may well be coming into my lane.

I dunno'...he has enough energy built up to turn me and my little car into a Hambster omlet along the Armaco.

Drag race have no "time outs".

As in ..."TIME OUT!"--I DIDN'T WANT TO BE HERE ".

All we have between us and the wall/car is some tubes and some .040 aluminum.

Jeeze-- I'm scaring the hell out of myself.

Butch
Butch, I don't know how other tracks operate currently, 'cause I've been at Firebird for 19 years, but it's no problem to run a single pass here. Just ask the stager (quarter-mile Lyle). :D

[fridaynitedrags]

Posted by 64Dodge440:
"Would you consider moving to California for a season and helping us get the guys out here educated?:D"

The problem with common sense is that it's not all that common, so I'm not sure I could teach it to a tech inspector who can't decipher a Rulebook. Thanks for the invite though! :D

[Old6rodder]

HAMBster omelet? Must be a cajun recipe. :p

We got hit with it late in '07, after we'd already built to the single rollbar specs. At that point the tech told us it was then being applied to all open cars and would be formalized in the '08 book. Obviously he was working under a misaprehension.

I dug out my '07 book (pg. 218) and (with the crystal vision of hindsight) can see how he could interpret it that way. Particularly without having made the prior concession of an E.T. classification.

In retrospect it may've been better for us to have "gone in" (sic) under the cover of an E.T. class rather than giving him the HA/GR (with it's R for Rail) designation to try to work with.

Obviously politics isn't my calling but had I had the foresight I might've gotten us all off to a better start out here. Now, with stands taken, it'll be much harder to wring rationality out of it, and perhaps not possible. We'll keep trying though.

[Ron Golden]

Interesting bit of information. I think it's time to ask for another meeting with Rob Parks and Bob Blackwell and suggest they look at the "Dune Buggy" rules. In fact I built dune buggies when I lived in Riverside, CA. during the 60's and they were exactly like the HA/GR cars.

Ron

[fridaynitedrags]

Interesting bit of information. I think it's time to ask for another meeting with Rob Parks and Bob Blackwell and suggest they look at the "Dune Buggy" rules. In fact I built dune buggies when I lived in Riverside, CA. during the 60's and they were exactly like the HA/GR cars.

Ron
Ron, would you like me to call Bob? We're old friends (nearly 20 years) and have worked many races together, Nationals, Divisionals, etc. I have his cell phone number or can email him and lay it out. Just makin' an offer. :D

[fridaynitedrags]

I keep rollin' this stuff over in my mind. There was someone carpin' on another thread about having to use an axle retention device on a C-clip differential. You don't need an axle retention device or aftermarket axles until 10.99 if you're not runnin' a spool. Using an OEM clutch-type "posi" device or aftermarket limited-slip arrangement like Auburn or Detroit Locker, etc. does not require a retention device or axles until 10.99.

[Old6rodder]

I believe that was Dick (Mosely), and he is indeed running a spool.
Still, it'd be no particular problem to pop a posi back in and keep the rear he has, would it.


Yep, pre-Bruce Myers dune buggies. Very much what a HAMBster is minus the sand (now that Palmdale's gone).


Hmm, ........ it's "fun" breaking in a new mold, isn't it? :D

[Toymaker]

I keep rollin' this stuff over in my mind. There was someone carpin' on another thread about having to use an axle retention device on a C-clip differential. You don't need an axle retention device or aftermarket axles until 10.99 if you're not runnin' a spool. Using an OEM clutch-type "posi" device or aftermarket limited-slip arrangement like Auburn or Detroit Locker, etc. does not require a retention device or axles until 10.99.

Friday' Where have you been:D Your input is great and appreciated. Here is a reference sheet I wrote up to save a novice builder some headaches, it did make reference to the axle retention device. Check it out and let me know what you think. Rocky
Team TWIRL’N GAS Rail Reference Sheet
Check out the Jalopy Journal for more information
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/f...aysprune=&f=38 (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=38)
THESE ARE GUIDELINES AND WRITTEN USING THE 2008 NHRA RULE BOOK
FOR CARS 11.99 AND SLOWER
Please check current NHRA rule book when building a car
1. Frame rails shall be production or modified production units, or 1 ½” by 3” by .118” wall (or larger) rectangular tube, or round tube 3′’ in diameter by 118” wall (or larger). No “slingshot” chassis’ allowed. Driver & engine will be located between the front & rear axle centerlines. Minimum wheelbase of 90" SEE NHRA 4:12
2. Stock width front axles and rear ends only. Front axles shall be stock production units or equivalent width aftermarket units only. Front suspension optional on cars weighing 2350 lbs or less with 100 inch or longer wheelbase. SEE NHRA ET Handicap racing, Super Pro, Pro, Sportsman, Suspension, Altereds, Dragsters Also SEE NHRA 3:2, 3:4
3. All cars must have at least a five point roll cage of minimum 1 5/8″, 118” Mild Steel wall tubing. SEE NHRA 4:11
4. Rear axles shall be stock width production units only. Aftermarket gears are allowed. One piece axles recommended, Cars with keyed axles must use hub safety retainers. SEE NHRA 2:11, 2:2 Brakes 3:1
5. Closed or enclosed drivelines are encouraged. SEE NHRA 4:9 & 2:4 Open drivelines shall have 2"x 1/4″ “retaining hoop” straps within 6″ of front universal joints. A minimum of .120 Steel plate flooring to protect driver from u-joint in case of failure.
6. Cars must have cowl/body and floor boards, belly pan sufficient to prevent driver’s legs from exiting vehicle unintentionally Minimum .032 Aluminum or .024 Steel. SEE NHRA 7:5 Sub flooring independent of car body is mandatory in Dragsters that allow drivers legs to rest on Belly Pan or Chassis. SEE NHRA ET Handicap Racing A minimum .032 Aluminum or .024 Steel firewall is mandatory. SEE NHRA 7:4 Windscreen 7:7
7. Cars must be equipped with an engine mounted starter and be self starting.
8. Batteries must be securely mounted using modern safety standards and separate from drivers compartment. SEE NHRA 8:1
9. Cars must have a master battery cutoff switch accessible from outside the car. SEE NHRA 8:4
10. Cars must have at least one red rear running light for night racing.
11. Engines must be pre-1962, inline, overhead, flathead and flathead V8 types with production cylinder blocks only. Later issues of these engines are acceptable as long as there are no significant changes between them. No aftermarket overhead valve heads allowed. No “V” type engines other than flatheads allowed.
12. Engines must be naturally aspirated. No superchargers, turbos, nitrous oxide or fuel injection.
13. No electronic ignition boxes mounting outside the distributor or “coil in cap” HEI allowed. Conversions in the manner of Petronix that fit within a stock dist cap are allowed. No aftermarket magnetos allowed.
14. Pump gas/racing gas only. No Methanol, nitromethane, or alcohol.
15. Era specific carbs only, stock appearing- no modern Holley, Edelbrock, or other aftermarket carbs Flash Shield or Scoop Required SEE NHRA 1:4
16. Fuel lines shall have no more than 12” total of rubber line. SEE NHRA 1:5
17. Cooling system or water tank must use a radiator cap and overflow/catch can system. SEE NHRA 1:7
18. Automatic transmissions are not allowed. All cars with clutches must run a stamped steel bell housing or a 1/4″ scatter shield over production bellhousing. SEE NHRA 2:3 2:5 2:6
19 Cars must have rims no wider than 6″ and only bias ply street treaded tires allowed. No radials, slicks, or cheater slicks allowed. Tire tread width must measure no more than 6″. SEE NHRA 5:1, 5:2
20. Drivers must wear up to date NHRA acceptable full face helmet with shield (Snell M2000, M2005, K2005, SA2005, SFI 31.2A or 41.2 SEE NHRA 10:7 & ET Handicap Racing). SFI 3:3 Neck Collar or SFI 3:3 Head Sock or Skirted Helmet Required. SEE NHRA 10:8 3.2A/5 two layer fire retardant jacket & pants or suit required, SFI 3:3 Gloves required on all open bodied cars. SEE NHRA 10:10 Leather Driving shoes 3:3A/5 & Arm Restraints required @ FAMOSO & Recommended SEE NHRA 10:3
21. Five point NHRA approved safety harness required. SEE NHRA 10:5
22. All cars must be of general soundness and safety. Must have all lug nuts, sound steering, cotter pins in place, and heim ends “captured” etc.
23. No electronic/pneumatic drivers aids such as rev limiters, two steps, shift lights or electric shifters. Tachometers are allowed if they don’t have a rev limiter or a shift light.
24. Cars are to be built in the spirit of the 1950’s

[mudflap261]

You might consider inserting mild steel only in the frame rule.

[Ron Golden]

Friday,

I'll take you up on your offer to call Bob Blackweel since you guys have worked together. He knows me, and the rest of our crew, and has certified several cars for us over the years but, your having worked with him should pull some weight. Bring him up to date on the dune buggy rules and see if the HA/GR cars can run under those rules.

Ron

[Drewfus]

Ron & Friday,

irregardless to discussions in the past, great to see the fresh enthusiasm, inparticular, with the combination of knowledge, dedication and a positive attitude, can only be a great thing for all.

Thanks, needed that, one last thing, try to get to Mokan....think it would help 'clear the head'.

Drewfus

P.S. appologies if the above sounds like 'jibberish', just random thoughts..

[fridaynitedrags]

Toymaker & Ron Golden, as I related in my PM to Toymaker, I don't want to come off here as a wise-ass know it all. That's not my personality at all. What I am is a drag strip junkie. I'd rather be at the drag strip teching cars than anyplace else on the planet. So, seeing an opportunity to help you fellows if I can, I'm jumping in.

Now, is there's one thing I've learned in my 67 years on this rock, it is that when you're trying to sway someone over to your side, you try to work on his terms first. In that light, I have structured the following rules according to the format in the NHRA Rulebook. I went item by item and applied what was relevant, then threw out what was not. I realize you guys wanted the rules to be simple and fit on one sheet of paper, but this is more complicated than that and everything must be addressed properly if you are to sway the NHRA over to your way of thinking. If you like what I've done, use it. If you don't, toss it. It's that simple. You won't hurt my feelings.

I have taken some license on items that have been a thorn in the side of tech guys forever. Lug nuts and wheels for instance. Rather than try to explain why the stud must protrude into the hex portion of the nut by the diameter of the stud, I have thrown out the whole tube nut arrangement. Those tube nuts have no threads in the hex portion of the nut in the first place and are a tragedy waiting to happen. We used to have the racers at Firebird pull a nut for inspection at every drag race until they wised up and installed longer studs and open-ended nuts. Now, all it takes is a counter-clockwise twist with the thumb and forefinger to make sure they're tight and away we go. You can keep that verbage or throw it out, I'm just trying to make it easier on the tech inspectors and therefore make more friends for you racers.

Apparel is another area. You don't need 3.2A/5 jacket and pants according to the Rulebook. If you want to retain that rule, go for it.

Battery "J" hooks have forever been a pain in the ass, so I tossed them too.

The rule about minimum track front and rear is taken from Roman chariots. Their track was 56 1/2 inches. When the railroads were built in this country, the width of the tracks was 56 1/2 inches. When Henry Ford built his cars, he used 56 1/2 inches.

The following is a compilation of rules as I would have written them if charged with the task.

Dune-Buggy-Type vehicles, running 12.00 and slower Elapsed Time.

OVERVIEW: A center-steer vehicle using front or mid engine placement and having a wheelbase between 90 and 150 inches. Driver and engine must be placed between front and rear axle centerlines. Slingshot type construction prohibited.

1.1 COOLING SYSTEM
Optional. If used, radiator must be in front of motor.
MID-ENGINED CAR: Metal deflector plate between radiator and driver required. Minimum 1/8 inch aluminum or 0.060 inch steel or titanium, starting at frame rail, width of rollbar up to shoulder bar, width of helmet from shoulder bar to top of rollbar. If any part of radiator sits above shoulder bar (crossbar), deflector plate must be full width of rollbar from frame rail to top of rollbar.

1.2 ENGINE
Pre-1962 production block and head(s) only. Inline four, inline six, inline eight flathead or overhead valve and flathead "V" engines. Later issues of these engines are acceptable as long as there are no significant changes between them. No aftermarket overhead valve heads allowed. Aftermarket flathead heads accepted. No “V” type engines other than flatheads allowed. Maximum crankshaft centerline to ground 24 inches.

1.3 EXHAUST
Any type exhaust allowed. Must be directed to rear of car, away from driver and fuel tank. Individual pipes must be connected to prevent loss of pipe during competition. Flex tubing prohibited. Muffler(s) OK if securely mounted.

1.4 FLASH SHIELDS
Carburetor inlet must not be openly exposed. Must use flash shield or velocity stacks that cover top, back and sides, preventing fuel from being siphoned into the airstream or blown into driver's face. Recommend rural newspaper delivery box for inexpensive scoop.

1.5 FUEL SYSTEMS
All fuel lines, pumps, tanks, valves, etc. must be located outside driver's compartment, within confines of frame. Cool cans, fuel distribution blocks, etc. must be located minimum 6 inches forward or rearward of flywheel/bellhousing area. Fuel pressure isolators with steel-braided line may be mounted on firewall. Fuel tank must be completely isolated from driver's compartment by a firewall, completely sealed to prevent any fuel from entering the driver's compartment. All fuel tanks must have a pressure cap and be vented to outside of car. A positive-locking, screw-on fuel tank cap is mandatory. Non-metallic fuel cells or tanks must have metal fill-ring grounded to frame of car. All fuel lines must be metallic, steel-braided or NHRA-accepted woven or woven push-lock (see nhra.com for list of woven fuel line). Maximum 12 inches total of black rubber fuel line is permitted for connection purposes only. Fuel lines (except steel-braided lines) in the flywheel/bellhousing area must be enclosed in a 16 inch length of steel tubing, 1/8 inch minimum wall thickness, securely mounted as protection against fuel line rupture by exploding flywheel or clutch parts. Fuel and brake lines may not be routed in the driveshaft area.
Recommend mounting tank or cell above bottom of frame rails so that bottom of tank/cell cannot come into contact with racing surface in the event of front-end failure.
Naturally aspirated only. No superchargers, turbochargers of pressurized air/fuel systems of any kind. No power adders such as nitrous oxide. No fuel injection. Carburetor(s) only. Era specific automotive carbs only, stock appearing-no modern Holley, Edelbrock, or other aftermarket carbs. Motorcycle carbs prohibited.

1.6 FUEL
Commercially available gasoline, racing gasoline or E85 fuel only. No methanol, ethanol (except E85), nitromethane, hydrazine, propylene oxide or other combustible liquid permitted. Water injection is permissible.

1.7 LIQUID OVERFLOW
Radiator overflow catch can, minimum capacity 1 pint, securely fastened.

1.8 LOWER ENGINE CONTAINMENT DEVICE
Not mandatory, but highly recommended to prevent oiling rear tires following engine failure. Need not be SFI-certified. Can use bag or metal tray. See NHRA Rulebook, General Regulations, 1.8. Sportsman bags available on ebay for about $130. Use Pig Mat oil absorbent lining material, whether bag or tray.

1.9 OIL SYSTEM
Accu-sump, dry-sump tanks, oil filters, oil supply lines, etc. prohibited in driver's compartment. Oil pressure gauge and line permitted in driver's compartment, metal or steel-braided line mandatory, maximum 3/16 inch inside diameter.

1.12 THROTTLE
Must have a foot throttle incorporating a positive-acting return spring attached directly to the carburetor(s) throttle arm. A positive stop or override prevention must be used to prevent linkage from passing over center and sticking in an open position. Mechanical throttle linkage systems require toe hook attached to foot throttle pedal to allow driver to pull throttle pedal back with toe in the event throttle blades stick over center. Toe hook not required with cable-operated or hydraulically-operated linkages. No part of throttle linkage may extend below frame rails.

2.2 AXLE RETENTION DEVICE
Not required unless differential is locked with use of a spool.
Clutch-type or aftermarket anti-slip "posi" or ratchet-type differentials do not require axle retention device, although it is highly recommended.

2.3 CLUTCH
Conventional, single disc Long, Borg & Beck or Diaphragm type clutch only. Foot-operated engagement/disengagement only. Manual or hydraulically operated throwout bearing.

2.4 DRIVELINE
1/4 inch by 2 inch steel driveshaft loop is not required on these cars.
FRONT-ENGINED CAR USING U-JOINTS AND REAR SUSPENSION: A suitable protective shield of 0.120 inch minimum thickness steel plate surrounding the driveshaft and joints 360 degrees, extending from transmission output shaft to differential pinion shaft and securely mounted to frame or frame structure. May be made in two pieces, top and bottom, with flanges, using minimum six Grade 5 or better 3/8" diameter bolts/nuts, three per side.
FRONT-ENGINED CAR USING U-JOINTS AND SOLID-MOUNTED DIFFERENTIAL: same as above, but securely mounted to rearend center section and transmission case.
FRONT-ENGINED CAR USING STRAIGHT COUPLERS AND SOLID-MOUNTED DIFFERENTIAL: A suitable protective shield of 0.063 inch minimum thickness aluminum surrounding the driveshaft and couplers 360 degrees, extending from transmission output shaft to differential pinion shaft and securely mounted to rearend center section and transmission case. May be made in two pieces, same as above. Removeable top half will serve as an inspection cover.
MID-ENGINED CAR: Protective shield not required.

2.5 FLYWHEEL
Aftermarket flywheel and clutch not required by the rules, but highly recommended.

2.10 FLYWHEEL SHIELD
Minimum thickness 1/4 inch steel, 360 degree shield mandatory. On engines where a hydro-formed steel shield is not commercially available, shield from another application may be used by bolting a motor plate to the block with all available bolt holes, the drilling the motor plate to accept the shield. Alternately, a shield may be fabricated to completely encircle the stock bellhousing, securely mounted to the frame or frame structure. Fabricated shields may not be bolted to either the bellhousing or engine. Shield must extend forward to a point at least 1 inch ahead of the flywheel and 1 inch to the rear of rotating components of the clutch and pressure plate. See NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 2.10

2.11 REAREND
Welded spider gear rearends prohibited. Rear differential housings shall be stock width production units only, minimum track 56 1/2 inches. Aftermarket gears and aftermarket/OEM limited-slip differentials are allowed. One piece differential housing recommended, Cars with keyed axles must use hub safety retainers.

2.12 TRANSMISSION
All cars must be equipped with a reverse gear. Manual transmission only, 3-speed, 4-speed, 5-speed or 6-speed. Automatic transmissions prohibited.

3.1 BRAKES
Minimum two-wheel hydraulic brakes on rear. Four-wheel hydraulic brakes recommended. Steel, steel-braided or D.O.T.-approved flexible line only. Where line passes flywheel area, route to outside frame rail or enclose line in 16 inch length of minimum 1/8 inch wall steel tubing as protection against brake line rupture resulting from exploding flywheel or clutch parts. Line-Loc acceptable for staging purposes. All verbage in NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 3.1 applies.

3.2 SHOCK ABSORBERS
Minimum one hydraulic or friction-type shock per each sprung wheel mandatory.

3.3 STEERING
All verbage in NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 3.3 applies.

3.4 SUSPENSION
Rear suspension optional. Front suspension optional on cars weighing less than 2,350 lbs with 100 inch or longer wheelbase. Front axles must have radius rods attached to frame. Front axles shall be stock production units or equivalent width aftermarket units only, minimum front track 56 1/2 inches.

3.5 TRACTION BAR ROD ENDS
All verbage in NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 3.5 applies.

3.6 WHEELIE BARS
All verbage in NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 3.6 applies.

4.1 ALIGNMENT
All verbage in NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 4.1 applies.

4.2 BALLAST
All verbage in NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 4.2 applies.

4.3 DEFLECTOR PLATE
Applies to mid-engined cars only. See Rule 1.1 COOLING SYSTEM.

4.4 FRAMES
Frame rails shall be production or modified production units, or 1 ½” by 3” by .118” wall (or larger) rectangular tube, or round tube 3′’ in diameter by 118” wall (or larger). No “slingshot” chassis’ allowed. Driver & engine must be located between the front & rear axle centerlines. Grinding of welds prohibited. All butt welds must have visible reinforcement (sleeve and rosettes). Pressurization of frame rails or rollbar prohibited. Mild steel (as opposed to chromoly) tubing for fabricated frame and rollbar recommended.

4.5 GROUND CLEARANCE
All verbage in NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 4.5 applies.

4.7 MOUNTING HARDWARE
All verbage in NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 4.7 applies.

4.9 PINION SUPPORT
All verbage in NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 4.9 applies.

4.10 ROLL BAR
The NHRA 2009 Rulebook, in Section 4A, Roll Bar, makes provision for a "dune-buggy-type vehicle" running 12.00 or slower to utilize a minimum 5-point ROLL BAR. Minimum material requirement 1 3/4 inch diameter, 0.118 inch wall mild steel or 0.083 inch wall chromoly. Refer to General Regulations, 4.10 for specifics pertaining to construction. Pay attention to diagram in General Regulations, Section 4.10 of Rulebook. 6th point side bar mandatory. Have driver seated in car in driving position before beginning roll bar construction. Roll bar must be minimum 3 inches above driver's helmet, maximum 6 inches behind driver's helmet and at least as wide as driver's shoulders. Two rear brace bars required, same material as main roll bar hoop, intersecting main hoop no more than 5 inches from top of main hoop and installed at a minimum angle of 30 degrees from vertical. Crossbar (minimum 1 1/4 inch diameter x 0.118 inch wall mild steel or 0.083 inch chromoly) must be installed between left and right side of main roll bar hoop as mounting point for shoulder belts. This bar should be mounted even with the driver's shoulders to a maximum of 4 inches below the driver's shoulders with the driver in driving position. Under no circumstances is this bar to be mounted above the driver's shoulders. Side bars, one on each side of roll bar (6-point bar) same material as main hoop, intersecting main hoop at crossbar and extending diagonally to the floor of the car at the driver's feet. These side bars must pass the driver between the shoulder and the elbow with the driver in driving position. Sidebars may be bent or bowed to facilitate meeting shoulder/elbow rule.

4.12 WHEELBASE
Minimum 90 inches with front suspension, solid-mounted differential. Minimum 100 inches if solid-mounted front and rear and car weighs less than 2,350. Maximum wheelbase variation left to right, 1 inch. Minimum front and rear track, 56 1/2 inches.

5.1 TIRES
Bias-ply street-treaded tires only. No radials, slicks, or cheater slicks allowed. Maximum tread width 6 inches as measured during technical inspection. Must have minimum 1/16 inch tread depth across entire 6 inch width. Temporary spares, space-saver spares, farm implement or trailer tires prohibited.

5.2 WHEELS
Minimum 13 inch diameter. Maximum 6 inch wheel width. Snap-on covers or spinners prohibited. Lightening of wheels prohibited. Closed-end lug nuts prohibited. Wheel studs must protrude past end of lug nut by minimum one thread. Chamfer-type lug nuts only. Chamfer-type wheels only. Tube-type lug nuts and wheels prohibited. Wheel spacer/adapter permitted, billet only. Cast spacers/adapters prohibited. Stacking of spacers/adapters prohibited. Motorcycle wheels or lightweight automotive wire wheels must be equipped with minimum 0.100 inch diameter steel spokes, properly cross-laced to provide maximum strength. All spoke holes in rim and hub must be laced.

6.1 DRIVER COMPARTMENT
Magnesium materials prohibited. Gauges permitted, electrical or mechanical. No mechanical fuel gauge lines in driver's compartment. Use isolator or electrical gauge. Mechanical oil pressure lines and brake pressure lines must be metallic. Recommend steel-braided. Recommend minimum 0.024 inch thickness steel or 0.032 inch aluminum for fabricated sheet metal body panels.

6.2 UPHOLSTERY, SEATS
All verbage in NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 6.2 applies. Pay attention, 4 bolts in the bottom, 1 bolt in the back to the crossbar.
Mount the seat and get the driver in the car before beginning Roll Bar construction and belt mount placement. See rule 10.11 for proper lap belt and crotch strap mounting.

7.1 AIR FOILS, WINGS
Air foils, canards, wings or spoilers prohibited.

7.4 FIREWALL
FRONT-ENGINED CAR: Minimum thickness 0.032 inch aluminum or 0.024 inch steel, laterally from frame rail to frame rail, vertically from frame rails to height of tallest engine part or carburetor(s) air horn(s). Firewall must provide a bulkhead between driver and engine to prevent engine fire from reaching driver. All holes in firewall must be sealed with aluminum or steel. Holes for passage of wiring, gauge lines, etc. must be minimized. Rubber grommets to prevent chafing of wiring or lines highly recommended. Magnesium firewall prohibited.
MID-ENGINED CAR: Front firewall not required. See rule 1.1 COOLING SYSTEM.

7.5 FLOOR
Minimum thickness 0.024 inch steel or 0.032 inch aluminum floor pan extending frame rail to frame rail and firewall to rear of driver's seat mandatory.

7.7 WINDSCREEN
Metal, Lexan or other fireproof deflector mandatory. Minimum size 5 inches tall by 12 inches wide to divert wind, liquids and foreign matter over the driver's head. Must be securely mounted and installed in a manner that does not obstruct the driver's frontal view in any way. May be formed as part of the cowl above the firewall.

8.1 BATTERIES
Maximum two batteries. Maximum weight 150 lbs combined. Front engined car with front mounted battery/batteries must enclose battery/batteries in sealed box. Front engine car with rear mounted battery/batteries may use sealed box or minimum thickness 0.024 inch steel or 0.032 inch aluminum firewall behind driver's seat without sealed box. Mid-engined car may mount battery/batteries at rear of car without sealed box. All batteries must be secured to the frame of frame structure with minimum two 3/8 inch diameter bolts/nuts or studs/nuts (3/8 inch allthread works) and minimum 1/8 inch thickness by 1 inch wide steel strap across top of battery/batteries. Strapping tape prohibited. Battery/batteries loose in sealed box does not constitute legal mount. Secure battery/batteries to the car, then cover with sealed box and secure box to car. Sealed box must be vented to atmosphere. "J" hooks prohibited.
See General Regulations 8.1

8.3 IGNITION
Must have positive-action on/off switch, capable of de-energizing entire ignition system within easy reach of driver. Momentary-contact or mag kill button type switches prohibited. Recommend large, round, red button, pull-on/push-off type switch.
No electronic ignition boxes mounting outside the distributor or “coil in cap” HEI allowed. Pertronix or other solid-state points-elimination systems that fit within a stock distributor cap are allowed. No aftermarket magnetos allowed. Electronic, electrical, mechanical, hydraulic, pneumatic or any other kind or type of device to alter or control any function of the engine or car in any way without driver input prohibited.

8.4 MASTER CUTOFF
An electrical power cut-off switch must be installed on the rearmost part of the car and be easily accessible from the rear with the car in any position, right-side-up, sideways or upside-down. Connect switch to POSITIVE side of electrical system. Switch must stop all electrical functions AND kill the engine. Off position must be clearly indicated with the word "OFF". If push/pull type actuation, push must be off and pull must be on. Minimum 1/8 inch diameter for any cables or rods used to activate switch. Plastic or keyed switches prohibited.

8.5 STARTERS
All cars must be self-starting. Rollers and/or push/pull starts prohibited.

8.6 TAILLIGHT
All cars must have minimum one red taillight visible from the rear of the car so that the Starter/Flagman can see when your car has exited the track at the top end before he sends another pair of cars down-track. Recommend minimum 4 inch diameter lamp or equivalent. Strobes, flashing, high-intensity, laser, infrared, photo-sensitive or other light-emitting/receiving devices prohibited.

8.8 SHIFT LIGHT
Shift light prohibited.

9.1 COMPUTER
Computers prohibited.

9.2 DATA RECORDERS
Data recorders prohibited.

9.3 FIRE EXTINGUISHERS
For onboard extinguishers, standard, flip-open type extinguisher mounts are prohibited. Here's a legal onboard mount....
http://www.sidebysidesports.com/rpsqurefiexm.html (http://www.sidebysidesports.com/rpsqurefiexm.html)
Otherwise, see General Regulations 9.3

10.3 ARM RESTRAINTS
Must be worn and adjusted in such a manner that driver's hands and/or arms cannot be extended outside of roll bar or frame rails. Must be combined with driver restraint system so that restraints are released when lap/shoulder/crotch belts are released.

10.4 CREDENTIALS
Valid State or government-issued driver's license mandatory. If the State won't allow you to drive on public highways, then you have no business creating problems on the drag strip. Bring your license with you to tech inspection.

10.5 DRIVER RESTRAINT SYSTEMS
5-point, SFI 16.1 belt installation mandatory.
All verbage in NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 10.5 applies. Study the diagram shown in General Regulations, Section 10.5 VERY CAREFULLY and build accordingly. This will be the most critical part of your build. PAY ATTENTION!!!!!

(Editor's note) In all the years I've been teching cars, I've only encountered a handful of cars that had the belts installed correctly. If you follow the diagram, it's so simple that a child could do it, but it seems to escape grown men. Weld a 2 inch by 2 inch by 0.083/0.125 inch wall piece of square tubing crossmember between the frame rails, right at the back edge of the seat. Mount the lap belts to this, about 16 inches apart c-c. If you want to be able to remove the belts easily, install ring-type bolts into the 2 x 2 crossmember and use clip-type ends on the belts. Mount the crotch strap in the middle of this crossmember. Cut a hole in the seat right under your nuts if it doesn't already have one and bring the crotch strap up through the seat. Mount the shoulder belts to the crossbar that runs between the Roll Bar uprights. (you did mount the crossbar at shoulder height, with the driver in the seat and in driving position, right????) There, done correctly.

10.6 HEAD PROTECTOR
All verbage in NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 10.6 applies. Study the diagram in General Regulations, Section 10.6.

10.7 HELMET
Full-face helmet with shield meeting Snell specification M2000, M2005, K2005, SA2000, SA2005 or SFI specification 31.2A or 41.2A. Goggles prohibited. SFI 3.3 skirted helmet or SFI 3.3 head sock not required by the rules, but recommend upgrading to one or the other in front-engined car.

10.8 NECK COLLAR / HEAD & NECK RESTRAINT DEVICE
Optional, not required by the rules, but strongly recommended.

10.10 PROTECTIVE CLOTHING
Full-length pants, short or long sleeved shirt, closed shoes and socks. Fire jacket meeting SFI specification 3.2A/1, fire gloves meeting SFI specification 3.3/1. SFI 3.2A/5 jacket and pants not required by the rules in this level of car, but recommend upgrade in front-engined car.

10.11 SEAT BELTS
All verbage in NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 10.11 applies.

[Toymaker]

I myself am very thankfull for your efforts. I'm very curious how the Roll Bar vs Cage conversation will go with Bob. It would be great for NHRA to make it clear and pass the info to thier techs. Thanks again, Rocky

[Old6rodder]

Richard, I owe you a six pack of whatever you drink. Name it.

That's the single most helpful effort in our rules problems to date.
Guess it pays to "hire" an expert.

Thank you. :cool:

[alteredpilot]

okay guys...
in case anyone missed it in the 3+ years we've been beating this horse...

as per NHRA Div 7 tech, from their mouth to my ears...

if it is center steer and solid rear, its a dragster or an altered, thus the roll CAGE rule.

since NHRA holds the master lease on the one track we are running at out here, that's how it goes.

i've said it a million times and i'll say it again (until common sense prevails at a higher level...) wanna run a roll BAR??? off set the steering and add rear suspension.

THEN you have a dune buggy type vehicle.

[Toymaker]

okay guys...
in case anyone missed it in the 3+ years we've been beating this horse...

as per NHRA Div 7 tech, from their mouth to my ears...

if it is center steer and solid rear, its a dragster or an altered, thus the roll CAGE rule.

since NHRA holds the master lease on the one track we are running at out here, that's how it goes.

i've said it a million times and i'll say it again (until common sense prevails at a higher level...) wanna run a roll BAR??? off set the steering and add rear suspension.

THEN you have a dune buggy type vehicle.
I knew they said something like that but I couldn't remember enough to quote:D

[moparsled]

FridayNite....

THAT set of rules is incredible- thank you for your time in drafting those.

I've probably been one of the most vocal NHRA-haters rules wise here on the HA/GR board, repeatedly beating the drum that the HA/GR class was never intended to pass NHRA tech, and so on and so forth BUT....

I'd GLADLY eat a mountain of crow, and even modify my build (no first/reverse in my modified Lasalle trans currently) if this set of rules would be enacted universally- including Commiefornia.

the cop-out here is of course, for now, the rules are what they are, and I will continue my build as-is.

Again, I'm awed that you took the time, thanks a million.

[64 DODGE 440]

okay guys...
in case anyone missed it in the 3+ years we've been beating this horse...

as per NHRA Div 7 tech, from their mouth to my ears...

if it is center steer and solid rear, its a dragster or an altered, thus the roll CAGE rule.

since NHRA holds the master lease on the one track we are running at out here, that's how it goes.

i've said it a million times and i'll say it again (until common sense prevails at a higher level...) wanna run a roll BAR??? off set the steering and add rear suspension.

THEN you have a dune buggy type vehicle.

I know where you are coming from Mitch, I have heard this from the beginning of our build, but find the logic on that argument hard to follow when single seat buggies have been built for many years, (in center steer configuration) and the idea of rigid VS sprung rear causing a problem going in a straight line is not the least bit logical. Same thing for the concept that if you climb over the side, one rule applies, but if you have a door it's different.

There are stock convertibles that run quicker and faster than our cars and can do so as long as they have the top up and the windows closed, but we need to build to dragster or altered standards. Not saying this to be contrary and plan on building our car to pass tech, just don't understand the logic driving it.

Perhaps fridaynitedrags can help us understand this logic? (Not trying to put you on the hot seat Richard, just appreciate all of your help to all of us building and racing these cars.)

[fridaynitedrags]

OK fellows, I want to keep you abreast (I love that word) of what I'm doing.

As I mulled this over, I concluded that talking with Bob Blackwell might not be the best place to start. That, and the fact that Bob is probably up to his ass in alligators working the Topeka event this week. This is a worldwide problem, not just a Division 5 problem. So, I decided to begin at the NHRA home office in Glendora.

I have worked with and corresponded with Jake Hairston, Technical Electronics Specialist on several occasions in the past, so I called him this morning and laid out the problem and asked if he would review the rules I have written. He said he would, so I sent it over to him on email. Jake related to me that NHRA gets petitioned repeatedly, on a daily basis, by groups or individuals who want a special class instituted by the NHRA to the point of absurdity. But he did agree to take a look for me. If Jake and others in the organization can agree that the rules are valid, then he said he can pass the word to the individual Division Directors to allow these cars to run as spec'd in the rules I wrote.

This is the header I included:

Hi Jake, thanks for taking my call and discussing the HA/GR "dune-buggy-type" vehicles. As I said, these fellows are encountering resistance from tech inspectors around the world when they try to get through tech with a roll bar rather than a roll cage. The 2009 Rulebook makes provision for a dune buggy type vehicle with roll bar at 12.00 and slower and that's what these guys want to build to. They just don't want to have to go to the trouble and expense of constructing a cage because that's not the theme of these vintage-type cars. The cars use vintage motors, no V8's except flatheads, no engine newer than 1962, and so forth.

There are perhaps thousands of these cars which could be built in the next few years, but members of the H.A.M.B. forum, where the idea for these cars originated, are reluctant to construct a car without having the rules and thus worldwide acceptance nailed down so that they can race them anywhere without going through a hassle and/or rejection in tech inspection. Currently, there are somewhere between 100 and 200 of these cars already built in this country and as many or more built in Australia.

Understanding the importance of building a vintage-type car safely, I agreed to list a set of rules which might be understood and accepted by the NHRA and which could be passed out to and used by H.A.M.B. members to build these HA/GR cars safely and pass tech anywhere.

Jake, thank you very much for looking at this for me.

Richard Moore
Firebird Tech

Dune-Buggy-Type vehicles, running 12.00 and slower Elapsed Time.
OVERVIEW: A center-steer vehicle using front or mid engine placement and having a wheelbase between 90 and 150 inches. Driver and engine must be placed between front and rear axle centerlines. Slingshot type construction prohibited.

(Rules inserted here)

I closed with a couple of links to HA/GR cars from Australia....

Here's a couple of youtube videos from Australia...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKceUwQXRxg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKceUwQXRxg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH-iv2rXqHg&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH-iv2rXqHg&feature=related)

Now, we'll just have to wait and see what happens....

Richard.

[Old6rodder]

OK, make that a case of your choice. :cool:

[CrkInsp]

Fri.../ Richard

On behalf of the SDRA and the HA/GR Guys that run with us at Tulsa Raceway Park I want to say Thankyou for your input. You speak with a voice reason for all of the guys who; have built, are building, or want to build a car of this type.

If you ever get the chance to come to Tulsa look us up.

Jr. Clark
CrkInsp

[Drewfus]

Ok......I'm going to potentially have conflicting 'tones' here, but, the heart is in the 'right' place.

Now, is there's one thing I've learned in my 67 years on this rock, it is that when you're trying to sway someone over to your side, you try to work on his terms first

Agree entirely with the above statement, without this attitude we (HA/GR in oz) would still be dreaming of racing, if it wasn't for some passionate/likeminded people who knew the 'process', and worked 'with' it, whilst still keeping our heart in the 'right' place.
We found our 'niche' within the existing 'structure', and whilst we had to make a few minor adjustments to suit the protocol (i.e. adding a little more information/where to refference in existing ANDRA rules), the class intent has remained the same, and now, are a recognised class within the various structure.

Point(s) being:

* First and foremost, remembering the heritage & original intent of this class, and within reason trying our best to stick with it (our biggest comprimise was our cages which we had to change, plus all the safety gear, which was common sense anyhow)

* Working within the structure is always easer than trying bang down the front door, always.

* Anything is possible, just need to find the 'right' keys...

May I also note:

* most racers 'get it', and support the class, it's only a few who are lost in the details that seem to 'struggle' with what we're about

* I believe in working 'with' promoters, as most WANT to get involved, although I conceed that there are some that are focused on $$$ and really don't understand our intent...

* I believe in the HAMB (?) and the first priority is there(here), probably a bit hard to explain this point, but without the support of Ryan and the HAMB in the beginning we wouldn't be 'here'. So, at each event we go to we make a difinitive effort to promote the HAMB, and where the HA/GR's came from, and what we're out to achieve.....and it ain't money or trophies.

Appologies for the above ramble, again, support you guys who are having a go, builders/racers, tech guys, promoters, and loyal supporters.

Drewfus

[64 DODGE 440]

Appologies for the above ramble, again, support you guys who are having a go, builders/racers, tech guys, promoters, and loyal supporters.

Drewfus

Amen Mate, you and your Aussie brothers, (and sisters) have done lots of good work to lead the way for those of us who are following.

[Ron Golden]

Richard,

Thanks for the effort. I have my fingers crossed you can inject some logical thinking into the NHRA tech group and they will allow us to run the HA/GR cars everywhere.

Ron

[64 DODGE 440]

1.2 ENGINE
Pre-1962 production block and head(s) only. Inline four, inline six, inline eight flathead or overhead valve and flathead "V" engines. Later issues of these engines are acceptable as long as there are no significant changes between them. No aftermarket overhead valve heads allowed. No “V” type engines other than flatheads allowed. Maximum crankshaft centerline to ground 24 inches.


That one got me worried and I had to make a run up to measure it.......:eek:

WHEW!! It's only 23 inches.:cool:

[Toymaker]

That one got me worried and I had to make a run up to measure it.......:eek:

WHEW!! It's only 23 inches.:cool:
You guys have been busy while I was at the Pleasanton GoodGuys show. I come back and read this and Laughed out loud:D Funny s#%^*t Tom. You better check the shifter rule too! Rocky

[64 DODGE 440]

You guys have been busy while I was at the Pleasanton GoodGuys show. I come back and read this and Laughed out loud:D Funny s#%^*t Tom. You better check the shifter rule too! Rocky

Stock factory shifter.......check.:D

[Ryan]

I'm sorry fellas... Inherently, I just don't give a shit about the NHRA rules... Not that my opinion matters.

[Toymaker]

I'm sorry fellas... Inherently, I just don't give a shit about the NHRA rules... Not that my opinion matters.
We understand Ryan, but for those of us who want to play in their sand box we have to deal with them:D Rocky

[Old6rodder]

I'm sorry fellas... Inherently, I just don't give a shit about the NHRA rules... Not that my opinion matters.

Believe me, if I didn't have to I wouldn't give a rusty fuck about'em myself.
I unfortunately don't own a strip (or even live on a decently flat street :rolleyes:).

[Calkins]

Is twin engines or direct drive allowed?

[Old6rodder]

Yep.

Rules are here .......
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/?p=442

[Rand Man]

Calkins, is that the "Orange Crate" in your Avitar?

[Calkins]

Yes sir, it is. Why do you ask?
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=9061&pictureid=88247

[Rand Man]

I'm part of Brad Green's Speed Merchants Nostalgia Top Fuel team. I see now, (by looking at your profile) that you're part of Dale Suhr's team. Just curious.

[Calkins]

Yep. How are you guys doing this year?

[Rand Man]

We found out we were having some bearing problems once we got her pulling close to 10,000 RPM. An HA/GR is on the other end of the spectrum than Top Fuel. They have their charm though. They are also easier on parts.

[Calkins]

After I build and run a HA/GR for awhile, maybe I'll give HA/BNR a try!

[ceegrey]

Sure makes me feel out of date at 62.
I still hammer weld with gas all of our bodies and stick (ARC) weld all of our fabricated car and light truck chassis. We run to a 500 amp MIG for bigger work but I don't think anything beats a good stick weld for quaility and appearance.
Col @ ceegrey

[Calkins]

fridaynitedrags, any word from 'da man?

[fridaynitedrags]

fridaynitedrags, any word from 'da man?
No. I was just thinkin' yesterday that I should email Jake and see if they have talked this over. I'll do that on Monday. Kinda makes me look stupid and I apologize for that. My heart is in the right place though. :D

[RAY With]

Having an all original 1950 digger and actually it was ahead of the times when built as to safety I see the diagram of a 10 second or slower digger here and I am not in the ball park on NHRA rules. So what do I do? Destroy the History of my digger or run local where I know it will pass inspection. Any one ever thought about IHRA or contacting them for a place to run and stay within the spirit of the old school? I know a lot of work has gone into a lot of old school diggers being constructed now and this rule thing is the shits. Having owned a IHRA prostock (200mph+) I have all the safety equipment and the knowledge to be competitive. This class was more about the fun and who cares if you win lose or draw? Running in the 50's is 4 times more cost engine wise just to stay in the 50's and I am looking forward to some passes in a couple of more months but I doubt my digger will make the rules unless I change the whole car and that's the current dilemma as I see it.

[REJ]

I would do what I am doing. I run at an outlaw track that is close to me and run on test/tune nights at the NHRA tracks.
There is always the HAMB drags, would love to see that digger there. I saw it in Garlit's shop several months ago.
Robert

[RAY With]

I would do what I am doing. I run at an outlaw track that is close to me and run on test/tune nights at the NHRA tracks.
There is always the HAMB drags, would love to see that digger there. I saw it in Garlit's shop several months ago.
Robert


Well, I didn't get started fast enough to get every thing done. To date I rebuilt the steering box and moved it away from the motor. I built an aluminum firewall, rebuilt the front end and currently have the rear end out for new seals and bearings and a general inspection so to speak. Having a 304 short block built and it wont be done until the end of September. Also have a new transmission installed. I installed the fuel system up front so progress is being made and I have more than enough time to get ready for the motor installation and I have a track 21 miles away I can run it as is and another 100 miles away that has seen it and I got invited to run at the nostalgia events. I think things will be ok and I really did want to do the hamb event in Mokan but can't make it.