a couple of pictures/ update

[moparsled]

the most recent progress on my HA/GR can be shown in a couple pics.

After dumping the engine and stuff off on the machine shop (winky icon here, if I knew how) I thought I'd try to get some chassis stuff done, so I worked on my bender for the roll bar. Plenty more to go on that, but the pic gives an idea.
Then I talked to the guys at the machine shop they told me I had to come by and check out the progress. I honestly didn't expect any!! So I went by this morning, the block is decked (.006"), the guides are shortened, the port work is started (oooh, shiny!) , and he was rough boring the block when I showed up. (.060" over)

he's estimating the engine will be done before March 1 ! Hope my finances hold out!

So, I kinda got a wake up call, I have to lay off the chassis and get to work on the manifolds and oil pan.

[Mr. Mac]

LOOKIN GOOOOD. Welcome to the flathead world.

[348chevy]

Mr. Mac are you seriously thinking of running a Hudson six? I would like to see someone get one because in dragracing about 1957 there was a Hudson Hornet with Twin H power that was a terror in his class. He blew 50 OLDS and Cadillacs away. And not to rob this thread from Moparsled, I'm glad to see you are progressing along. :DRoy

[Mr. Mac]

Mr. Mac are you seriously thinking of running a Hudson six? I would like to see someone get one because in dragracing about 1957 there was a Hudson Hornet with Twin H power that was a terror in his class. He blew 50 OLDS and Cadillacs away. And not to rob this thread from Moparsled, I'm glad to see you are progressing along. :DRoy

Sure is tempting Roy. Two things hold me back,one they are very heavy, second it would cost about 8500.00 to build a competive one.

[Rand Man]

Awsome! Keep buildin'.

[moparsled]

a new picture with a little visible progress--

the alignment bar is still in place, the block plate is drilled to fit the back of the block, the trans is on the bar, and the can is ready to be drilled.

Starting to like like something!

[moparsled]

a new progress shot-
the Drag-Lasalle hooked to the 44 via the front half of a Ford Torque tube type u-joint and cross, with custom made "caps" to bolt into the 44's yoke.

The flywheel is in the lathe getting cut down to get a 168 tooth Chevy ring gear, and to fit in the Chevy clutch can. After that the whole bottom end is ready for balancing.

that's about it for now, trying to get the powertrain all ironed out before the rails go in the jig.

[Rand Man]

That's a nice setback.

[Ron Golden]

Mopar,

That's the way I originally wanted to couple our tranny/rearend but it didn't allow enough legroom. Your design's look excellent. I'm impressed.

Ron

[moparsled]

keep in mind my rail is going to be mid/rear engine

[64 DODGE 440]

Looking good!!

[Mr. Mac]

Yep, I love it.

[Old6rodder]

Looking good, really good. :cool:

Couple questions .......

What distance do you have from #1 plug to rear axle centerline?
And about what angle will you be laying down in driving position?


ps. Tom, you don't need ANOTHER top cover do you? :D

[moparsled]

Looking good, really good. :cool:

Couple questions .......

What distance do you have from #1 plug to rear axle centerline?
And about what angle will you be laying down in driving position?


ps. Tom, you don't need ANOTHER top cover do you? :D

During my initial planning I measured approximately the length from the rear axle centerline to the front of the engine (pulleys and all) at circa 60". I was trying to see if I could cram everything inside a 120" wheelbase. Scoring the already shortened Lasalle sped my time table up a bunch!!

From axle centerline to the bellhousing mating surface of the trans is 23 7/8" give or take. The rest is all at the machine shop, I'll get measurements for you when I can.

At this point I still have a variable in the length--I don't know if the clutch and stuff will all fit within the Chevy can, and how it will all relate to the Lasalle input. I may still have a spacer between the block plate and bell, or the bell and the trans. If it works out, I'd rather shorten the Lasalle input than use a spacer.

Curious why you're interested in that measurement?

Not sure yet about the roll bar angle or the seating position, I keep beating around different ways.

[Ron Golden]

Mopar,

Mid engine is even better! It will be interesting to see the percentage of weight on the rear when the car is finished. I think your 60' times will beat all of us. If the weight bias is toward the rear the 6" bias tire now becomes less of a limiting factor. I like your plan.

Ron

[Old6rodder]

Ron's headed the right way, it's all about angle. And without a couple hundred pounds (or more :o) of driver right over the footprint we need to pay a bit more attention to it than the "Bug" cars do.

A line drawn through the #1 plug to the footprint will yield a rough & dirty angle along which your center of iron mass will typically land (within a few degrees). The steeper that angle the better the bite, right on up through wheelstands (think early gassers & altereds). That's the simple part.
Adding or subtracting a percetage of angle for the driver's belt buckle position and his resulting approximate mass center finishes off the "rule of thumb" version of this equation.

The whole car & driver's actual center of mass angle is a bit more of a grind to figure of course, but the "#1 plug and belt buckle" gimmick usually comes in close enough to work with on a dragster.

Of course the complete answer's also a balancing act between that and the "lift" capabilities of a given wheelbase & footprint but as we're on the short side of traction by design we likely won't be needing to address that part of it in this life.

It's looking like your shorter flathead and short gearbox'll give you a slightly better angle than our car, even after we get in our own short gearbox (we'd hoped to put it in early this year but are holding off pending possible Dragfest activities). We should at any rate have it in by MoKan.

[moparsled]

I get it. I'll have to keep all that in mind as I work forward. I had planned on having the rails level, and the complete powertrain all level, not knowing how an angle up or down would effect, but, maybe some angle is in store...THANKS!!!!!

[Old6rodder]

Damn, me and my big fat mouth ........

:D

[Ron Golden]

Damn, I hope I'm building enough engine to overcome the better engineering.

Ron

[moparsled]

Ron- I'm hoping to see that "Gigantic Jimmy" Do the -smoking burnout to half track- style pass. And still turn 12.50's.

[Old6rodder]

Yeah, your cube/torque advantage alone should negate all my finagling.
Hell, long before "You can't beat cubic money" it was "You can't beat cubic inches". :D

[moparsled]

my camera is on shaky ground at best, the last pics sucked, these seem to suck worse, but what the heck.

A shot of the '51 Dodge 1 ton truck flywheel (more on that at a later date) with 168 tooth Chevy ring gear welded in place.

Note the two balancing holes in the upper right corner. I feel pretty good about the balancing, all the way through very little weight had to come off to get everything balanced.

Basically at this point everything is ready to go back in the block, but the cam has not returned from the grinder yet.

so, a shot of the painted, but empty, block. The color doesn't show well, it's flathead Ford green. (supposed to be funny, full race MOPAR painted stock FORD green, his way of picking on me, calling me slow!)

I have been saying for weeks now that I need to finish the oil pan, and I'll say it again, I need to finish the 2" deeper than stock oil pan, and I need to get moving on the rest of the stuff to seal up the engine- block off plates n stuff.

I should have a more pics in a couple days.

[Rand Man]

I think a full ton for a flywheel is a bit heavy. Keep on pushing to get this thing going. I'd like to hear it run.

[Toymaker]

That is some nice work, Keep it up!

[moparsled]

as promised, more crappy pics.

a bunch of front end shots, now that all the pieces are together.

The nyloc nuts on the Pete & Jakes shackles are bugging the crap out of me, ALL of the other nuts on the front are castle nuts/cotter pins, so the nylocs stick out like a sore thumb. They'll be changed to match

V8-60 axle
cut down 37-41 Ford spindles
all steel spindle mount wires
Model 'A' wishbone, unsplit
stock 'A' pivot ball mount
custom 33 1/2" spring unknown manufacturer (possibly Posies)
Pete and Jakes shackles
'34 Ford spring perches and nuts
bent "hairpin" side steering arm

the 2" deeper oil pan in progress. Turns out I suck at hammer welding!

last, a pic of the disassembled keg tap whose pump will be my fuel pressure hand pump. Beats the cost of an original Bell or Eelco, or a repop Mooneyes.

[moparsled]

just got back from the machine shop. no pics this time -but- the cam and crank are in the block!!!! the rest of the insides go in this week!!!

I've been away from my end too much lately. Got the breather tube plug made, and the water pump block off and fuel pump block off made, still working on the oil pan.

hopefully it'll be buttoned up soon.......pics will come.

[Hudsonator]

How is this coming? I cruised in a little late, but highly interested in this outfit.

Hud

[moparsled]

I've barely touched this thing since my last update, and I've hardly been around here all summer, as I've just been busy with other stuff.

that is, until this past weekend.

I went down to the track in Pueblo Co., for a shot of motivation, and to see the guy who's building my engine run his blown alcohol '55 Chevy. He broke on the line, so I went to the pits to see what was up. He put me to work helping him pull, fix, and re-stuff the broken Lenco. We didn't get him back up in time to make a pass, (newbie slowness and mistakes)but he did cruise the pit roads before loading the car.

Anyways, that was enough motivation for me to wrap up the re-fixing of my oil pan Saturday morning, it's now at the powdercoater's. I fabbed the distributor clamp for my Mallory Magspark today, and dropped off that stuff so it can be run on the machine and set up.

Next up for me is the manifolds. I'll save the long, drawn out personal history story for later, but the short version is that I am going to run two Carter BB's and a set of yet-to-be fabbed headers.

There's really very little else left to get the engine done and on the dyno.

[Hudsonator]

Have you done anything to the main bearings or crank? How many rpms do you intend to run? 2-B&B's are good. Really good.

Hud

[moparsled]

the oil sytem is based on your old posts about your tractor from the Inliners board.

I'll just say that there is pretty much no chance of valve float in this one.

I'm shooting for a 6k+ redline

The current BB's are '48 Plymouth, I'm trying to save the dough for a pair of truck carbs from George Asche.

[Hudsonator]

Excellent! I was hoping you had worked on your oiling system, I have no worries about you hitting 6K and more. The only thing that would keep you from it is the valve springs - seems you've addressed that too.

I have another old piece of tech on the inliners board about the B&B carbs too. They are not all that difficult to deal with, actually enjoyable compared to some carbs. Really simple and effective little atomization devices, you just have to do some simple things to rebalance the fuel circuits for the reduced vacuum/airflow they see in dual compared to their original design. I know of at least two other sets of carbs done to my recipe on a 230 short engine and a 251 long engine that both worked great.

What are your cam numbers?

Hud

[bob hindman]

Cam numbers 1-800 comp....


Hiney....

[moparsled]

some shots of the engine this morning.

cam- regrind by Schneider
270 advertised/234 @.050 duration
.395 lift

I REALLY want to try a 280/448, but haven't had one ground.

kinda funny- I'm reading the posts about dynoing Ron's Jimmy at 300+ hp, thinking, WOW! I'm hoping this flatty will make it to 200 !

[moparsled]

a little progress this weekend.

got the fuel pressure regulator, gauge, fuel block, and lines to the carbs ironed out. I'll have to take some better pictures of the whole thing after I figure out what I'm doing tp top off the carbs.
From the beginning of this project I had been planning on fabbing intakes and running three Carter YH side drafts, but, stuff happens, sometimes for the better.

My first car was a '50 Dodge 4 door, I got it when I was 15 (1987). I moved to Wichita KS. from Olathe KS the next summer, and started running around with a couple older hot rodders that were into Mopars. One of them- Ernie Baker- sold me that Edmunds intake for $50. I never did get the car running with the intake on it, but flash forward to about five years ago, I sold the intake to a guy with a '56 Dodge, thinking that I was never going to build that flathead six. Jump again to last year when I took the engine to the machine shop to finally get it built right, for this HA/GR. By the way- it is the very engine out of that first '50 Dodge. I ended up getting the intake back from the guy about three months ago, so I thought maybe fate intended for that engine and intake to be together. So, I got back the very first piece of hot rodding I ever bought, and it's going back on the first engine I ever bought, and- WE'RE GOIN' RACIN' !

enough of the boring personal history junk- I also got three of the six header tubes made.

[Old6rodder]

"Boring personal history junk" is a great story, really lends a touch to the car.

Would like to've seen the Blue Flame set-up on'er (I'm a side-sucker sucker) but the Edmunds & uprights does really hit the mark.

Also, you do nice work.

[Joe Hamby]

Hey Moparsled keep up the nice work, you are building a rolling musium, I like it. Those carb's look like 50's, I just gave one like that to a friend that is going to put it on a duel carb, for his 46 dodge pickup with the flat head 6. The 50 tranny has small gears in it but 59 gears will fit in their place and are about a quarter of an inch wider. And what is the black car?

[moparsled]

the carbs are '48 Plymouth. They and the linkage I made came off my '50 Wayfarer 2 door sedan, and will go back on it when I can afford to buy the two truck carbs from George Asche
(see- I never got over that first car! Actually, the decklid area of that first car is grafted into the back of the current one to work out the chop)

the black car is a '54 Ford two door sedan that belongs to Shorty54 on here. It has a 383 with fenderwell headers, 727, '59 Ford 9" w/4.56 & mini spool, and Caltracs. I'm helping him finish it up.

rolling museum- well, yeah... I'm not trying to knock anybody else in the class, but I take the vintage part of our class pretty seriously. I am trying to build a car that is just as close as I can get to one that could have been at Great Bend or OKC from '55 to '58 or so. I'm putting my own (some modern) touches on it too, but trying not to let them detract from the historical value of the overall package. It's a sickness I tell ya.

[64 DODGE 440]

rolling museum- well, yeah... I'm not trying to knock anybody else in the class, but I take the vintage part of our class pretty seriously. I am trying to build a car that is just as close as I can get to one that could have been at Great Bend or OKC from '55 to '58 or so. I'm putting my own (some modern) touches on it too, but trying not to let them detract from the historical value of the overall package. It's a sickness I tell ya.

I'm with you there moparsled. Doing my best to use proper old parts and technology to keep the thing period correct as possible.

It may be a sickness, but it's a good sickness.:cool:

[Hudsonator]

It is a sickness, that's true.

but a good one.

[moparsled]

only one pic for right now, I'll have some more tomorrow.

The engine is done!!!

Only external stuff now, I hope to run it by next Wednesday.

Still working on the headers, lots to go on them, but the first half of the primaries are now welded, the #6 is tacked, and I'm working on the #2. It'll come up through that empty hole.

[moparsled]

more pictures.

getting closer, still shooting for a fire-up on Wednesday

[Old6rodder]

Damn, you work purty!

[Toymaker]

Looks GREAT! Your scaring some of us:D

[nexxussian]

That's an excellent looking piece.

[Hudsonator]

Gorgeous!

You make all us flathead inline fans proud. Here's hoping the fire up goes well.

Keep those pictures coming.

Hud

[mudflap261]

Nice work shows alot planing and thinking ahead

[64 DODGE 440]

With all of those coffee cans on the bench in the background it's easy to see where you get the time needed for such a pretty build. Over caffeinated??

That's one sweet looking Mopar flattie. What distributor are you running?

[Rand Man]

Very nice.

[moparsled]

With all of those coffee cans on the bench in the background it's easy to see where you get the time needed for such a pretty build. Over caffeinated??

That's one sweet looking Mopar flattie. What distributor are you running?

HHHAAAAAAA HHAAAAAAAA!! a guy's gotta do.....

distributor is NOS (1953) Mallory Magspark. Got it off Ebay about 2 years ago. The plug wires are old replacement stock too, "Tevco" brand. A little different than todays red wires, they have yellow injection molded rubber boots, rather than today's black or orange slide-on, or the Rajah's that so many go for.

Tom, what ignition are you going to run on your 218?

[64 DODGE 440]

HHHAAAAAAA HHAAAAAAAA!! a guy's gotta do.....

distributor is NOS (1953) Mallory Magspark. Got it off Ebay about 2 years ago. The plug wires are old replacement stock too, "Tevco" brand. A little different than todays red wires, they have yellow injection molded rubber boots, rather than today's black or orange slide-on, or the Rajah's that so many go for.

Tom, what ignition are you going to run on your 218?

I've got a stock 1934 Dodge spark maker that is getting set up for the car, hi-tech we are not, but it worked back then and it should still work now. Yours just looks real pretty.

If I go crazy I might try and scrounge a late '50s unit.

[moparsled]

That Mallory is definitely purty.

The reason I asked what you're running is because I know how hard stuff is to come by for these engines, and I wanted to offer that I have a stock distributor with a Dyna-Flyte dual point conversion if you wanted to try it.

[moparsled]

SKUNKED!!!!

I had hoped to fire the engine today, but the flywheel bolts didn't show. I'm going to go ahead and dig into the carbs tonight after work, so they'll be in better shape for when the rest is ready to go.

Hang onto your seats.. it's coming!

Edit- UPDATE- the flywheel bolts showed up just as I started to type this! The flywheel version two is done, and the starter modified to fit. The distributor still needs to be set up and the transformer tested, and I'm still going to try to get into the carbs tonight.

[nexxussian]

Good luck with that, so you aren't (didn't at this point) going to 'annoy the neighbors' today ?:D

[moparsled]

no pissed off neighbors yet.

Thanks to Hudsonator the carbs are good enough to get started, and are now on the manifold. The linkage and carb cover are on as well.

The distributor is set up and stuffed in the block, and is timed close enough to work.

the transformer still needs tested, the plug wires finished, and the fuel lines/regulator/gauge put on, I just didn't have the time tonight.

the flywheel bolts I was waiting on ended up being too long, so they chased all the threads on the old ones, replaced the nuts, and cranked 'em down. Figures!

[moparsled]

Well....
THAT didn't go as planned.
I'm actually pretty pissed about it, so this is kind of a rant.

Friday at 4pm they called from the machine shop to tell me to come over, wire the coil, "we're gonna fire this bitch TONIGHT". I hauled ass out of work a few minutes before 5, and when I got there THEY HAD ALREADY RUN IT!!!! I don't mean to sound like a whiner, but I had made a HUGE deal out of the first fire-up, and wanting to be there, video, etc. They cooled it off, fired it for like, 3 seconds so I could hear it, and then packed it in for the day. They were all smug and proud of themselves, wanting to know what I thought of it. I told them I wanted to hear it RUN. What else could I do but go home and sulk all weekend? I feel like the doctor kicked me out of the delivery room two seconds befor my baby was born. I waited for that ONE single moment for TWENTY YEARS, and was denied!
So, tomorrow morning I'm going to go in and collect all the leftovers, loose pieces, the bellhousing, clutch, and trans pieces, and tell them to wrap it up and get me a bill, I'll finish it myself.

[Ron Golden]

Mopar......DAMN STRAIGHT!!!!! I know the feeling and feel for you.

Ron

[nexxussian]

Can't say I know the feeling, but I understand where you're coming from.

[Old6rodder]

That decidedly sucks pond rocks, I've known the feeling and can sympathize. :mad:

Are you certain that shop isn't a government agency in disguise?

[64 DODGE 440]

That's one more reason I build my own.:D

Really sucks to have them steal your moment.:(

[moparsled]

Alright, I'm done being pissed for now, I gotta get this thing built! Still don't have a video of it running, but here's a few pics of it from the day it ran.
Please forgive the less-than-period-accurate-looking exhaust- it was SO MUCH FUN to build, I got more than a little carried away on it, and it SOUNDS AWESOME.

[moparsled]

Here's what I've been up to today- cutting up the new input shaft for the Lasalle trans, and a shot of the stock one still in the trans for comparison. I've cut the oil spiral off near the bearing, and tapered it up to the keeper groove, and then cut the OD down in the middle to match that of the splines, so I can send it out to have the splines cut back. Next is cutting back the snout and taper, so the whole thing will fit in the bellhousing.

Pilot bushing and bearing retainer are done too.

[17dracing]

Just wanted to say AWESOME work !!!!! It takes a car guy to see the real details and appreciate them !!! and man you have nailed it !!!!! Great job !!!

[Rand Man]

I want to hear that thing run.

[Hudsonator]

I want to hear it run too!

If it runs like it looks, sure would be sweet!

[64 DODGE 440]

That thing is looking great, hope it runs as good as it looks!! Keep up the good work.:D

[Old6rodder]

Hey 'Sled, if you don't mind, how 'bout letting me know what the splines wind up costing. We're going to need some ourselves.

[Little Wing]

Looks Great !!

[moparsled]

Hey 'Sled, if you don't mind, how 'bout letting me know what the splines wind up costing. We're going to need some ourselves.

Tom Staub in Denver will do it for $40. He does a pair of axles for $75, and will do a housing for $75 as well. I sent him my stock Lasalle tailshaft, but I got the shortened trans before he did it, so I put him on hold. Won't be any holding on this input shaft!

[moparsled]

dyno runs imminent....
.
.
.
.
.
tomorrow or wednesday.

[Hudsonator]

dyno runs imminent....
.
.
.
.
.
tomorrow or wednesday.

OOOOooooooooo!!!!

You'll have those step-up jets tuned to perfection!

I'm anxious to hear your results.

[nexxussian]

dyno runs imminent....
.
.
.
.
.
tomorrow or wednesday.


Cool, good luck.

May all of your effort and hard work remain contained in it's apropriate location within the engine.

[moose]

Hey Moparsled, excellent work. I'm looking forward to hearing this thing...

What size headers are those? 1-3/4" They look big!

[moparsled]

baseline pulls made tonight, no tuning yet. The carb "hat" adapter I made for the airflow meter was a no-go, so with the emergency help of a friend, I made a new one tonight. At this point we know we're rich, soooooooo...... tuning and more pulls tomorrow.

pre-tuning peak h.p. 164.8@4000rpm peak torque 253.6@2250rpm
my pie-in-the-sky goal is 200 h.p. , we'll see how close we get.

so, an equipment rundown is in order..

1950 Dodge flathead six (stock rated 103 h.p. @ 3600 rpm)
bored .060" (238 c.i.) Egge pistons
decked .006"
Edgy aluminum head, estimated compression 9.75 to 1
balanced
ported, valve guides shortened
stock valves with undercut heads
valve springs 80 psi @ installed height
cam regrind by Schneider 270* adv. duration, .395" lift
crankshaft cross-drilled
oil pan 2" deeper, right side rail pushed out 1", homemade windage screen
oil pressure relief shimmed .050"
Edmunds intake, 2 Carter Ball & Ball one barrels ('48 Plymouth)
header 1.625" diameter, 36" long primaries, 3" diameter, 12" long collector extension.
no water pump, fuel pump, generator
Mallory Magspark diual point distributor and transformer
Tevco red (translucent) solid core wires
Autolite 295 plugs

[Joe Hamby]

Hi Moporsled. You know that the mopar flathead 6 is the motor that won the first 500 mile nascar race on a hard surface. I wanted to tell you that when we dynoed my slant 6, we first used a 12 inch collector extension, then when we changed to a 18 inch, it gained 6 hp. Your motor looks really nice. I hope to see it next year at mokan. Joe

[Rand Man]

I really knew nothing about the Mopar six before I saw your build. That's a neat engine. A 60hp gain is good on any motor.

[moose]

This is good stuff. I want to see what you can get. I always said I thought I was getting around 175hp with a very similar set up. I don't run it like that anymore cause my Plymouth has baby seats in the back now, but mine was like this:

Edmunds head 9 to 1
Edgy reground cam 274 dur.
Tattersfield 2 single intake B&B's
Mallory MagSpark and dual point distributor
home made shorty headers
2" dual exhaust all the way out the back
10" truck clutch

baseline pulls made tonight, no tuning yet. The carb "hat" adapter I made for the airflow meter was a no-go, so with the emergency help of a friend, I made a new one tonight. At this point we know we're rich, soooooooo...... tuning and more pulls tomorrow.

pre-tuning peak h.p. 164.8@4000rpm peak torque 253.6@2250rpm
my pie-in-the-sky goal is 200 h.p. , we'll see how close we get.

so, an equipment rundown is in order..

1950 Dodge flathead six (stock rated 103 h.p. @ 3600 rpm)
bored .060" (238 c.i.) Egge pistons
decked .006"
Edgy aluminum head, estimated compression 9.75 to 1
balanced
ported, valve guides shortened
stock valves with undercut heads
valve springs 80 psi @ installed height
cam regrind by Schneider 270* adv. duration, .395" lift
crankshaft cross-drilled
oil pan 2" deeper, right side rail pushed out 1", homemade windage screen
oil pressure relief shimmed .050"
Edmunds intake, 2 Carter Ball & Ball one barrels ('48 Plymouth)
header 1.625" diameter, 36" long primaries, 3" diameter, 12" long collector extension.
no water pump, fuel pump, generator

[Hudsonator]

Take the springs out of your step up jets, and try 'er again.

Those buggers are the dickens. You'll need them later

Hud

[Hudsonator]

Gee, I meant to edit my post somehow - and it appears i deleted it?

Make sure your step-up jets are disabled, they are cantankerous buggers to tune and are a horrendous source of rich conditions. But, you'll need them in the final wind-up.

I was editing my post to say, I have a pristine EB-7A transmitter - thats 6 cylinders/12 volts. You know how to reach me.

Hud

[moparsled]

I'm not able to get back over there until Friday, at that point I am going to work on the low speed side of the carbs. I have the blocked off main jets and the UniSyn ready!
Truth is, no matter where I end up after tuning, I am satisfied. Even if it doesn't make 200 h.p., it's within reach at this point, so I know I CAN get there.

more about the header- All the dimensions of this header were picked pretty much arbitrarily. After doing some research online about header design and dimensions, this header I built is too big in every way. It'll hurt my #'s some, but a redo will have to wait until much later. I also thought the design to be a bit "out of era", but a customer of the machine shop brought me a picture of his Hemi rail circa '61 that had VERY similar headers, so now I don't feel so bad!

I have video of the first two pulls, I will link as soon as they're up.

Joe Hamby- no- I didn't know that about Nascar/flathead six Mopar- that's cool! thanks!

[Ron Golden]

Mopar,

That little devil's making pretty good torque for a 9.75:1 CR engine, especially with that big of a header. I think it would respond with a 1.5 x 32-36 primary with a 2.25-2.5 x 18 collector and about 10-15* more duration @ 0.050. Typically an engine's peak HP is about 1500 rpm above peak TQ. If you raised the peak TQ 1000 rpm I think your HP would easily exceed 200.

Very impressive engine!

Ron

[moparsled]

Mopar,

That little devil's making pretty good torque for a 9.75:1 CR engine, especially with that big of a header. I think it would respond with a 1.5 x 32-36 primary with a 2.25-2.5 x 18 collector and about 10-15* more duration @ 0.050. Typically an engine's peak HP is about 1500 rpm above peak TQ. If you raised the peak TQ 1000 rpm I think your HP would easily exceed 200.

Very impressive engine!

Ron

thanks Ron!
the header calculator I used wouldn't accept my stroke #, so I just got as close as I could, it came back with 1.375" x 31.5" primary and 2.5" x 14" collector. Edgy has the pattern for an Isky grind that I really want to use- 280*/.448" I just haven't been able to spend that $ yet. Done this once or twice before, haven't you?

[Hudsonator]

Mopar,

That little devil's making pretty good torque for a 9.75:1 CR engine, especially with that big of a header. I think it would respond with a 1.5 x 32-36 primary with a 2.25-2.5 x 18 collector and about 10-15* more duration @ 0.050. Typically an engine's peak HP is about 1500 rpm above peak TQ. If you raised the peak TQ 1000 rpm I think your HP would easily exceed 200.

Very impressive engine!

Ron

Dang tootin'

For his stroke length, he's running a very short overall crank length. He can out-rpm both of us Hudson and GMC dudes. That is until his piston speed frys his Egges.

Killler, you aren't even tuned nor synch'd on the carbs - are turning those numbers. Well, I'm on the edge of my seat now, for sure.

Hud

[Ron Golden]

Mopar,

Done a few....... and some actually worked out the way I planned. Consider your individual cylinder displacement (238/6=39.67 cid). If that was an 8 cylinder the total displacement would be 317 cid (39.67 x 8= 317 cid). That size engine at 5000 rpm would like about a 1.5" header. Granted, we're talking apples vs oranges here but the engine doesn't know.

When you consider the rpm drop between gears the midrange torque becomes more important than the max hp. Find your tranny gear ratios and calculate the rpm drop from your max rpm to the rpm it will be after the gear change. Try to tune the cam/header/intake, etc for that rpm range. Of utmost importance is the collector diameter and length.

As an example, from 3600 to 5600 rpm our GMC has over 337 lb/ft of TQ with a peak of 346 lb/ft at 4600 rpm. A 4 into 1 header would really help our TQ below 4600 rpm but my partners liked the looks of zoomies. I had the cam ground by Dema Elgin and he missed the TQ peak I requested by just 100 rpm. He hit the HP peak exactly on the nose. Now if I could run a Powerglide with the right converter...........

It all comes down to the right combination of parts working together. Two people that dance together all the time look great. Put me in place of the male dancer and I'll guarantee you I'll make us both look like we have 2 left feet. I'm that bad a dancer.

The engine looks great and you did a hell of a nice job building your header. I'm sure the 200 HP is there waiting.

Ron

[moparsled]

had a couple more pulls tonight. No horsepower increase yet. For some reason it will rev great right up to 4k, and then it starts screwing up.
A/F was in the 8's, so I pulled the step-up springs, moved the pump shot to the shortest stroke, and put the mixture screws at 1 turn out. A/F is now in the 10-11's up to 3250, and 13's up to 4k.
Pulled again, same issue. Closed spark plug gap to .022, and put shims under the plugs to get 'em away from the valves a bit. No change.
opened up the point gap from .024 to .027- and got the stumble to move up to 4250.

seems we may have an ignition issue! Tomorrow We're going to try changing the Magspark to a traditional dual point, with a regular coil, and I am taking a stock distributor with, as a backup plan. Also- he set the timing at 38* locked. This seems excessive to me- any comments?

[Ron Golden]

Mopar,

Ain't dynoing fun.....and informative. Frustrating sometimes too.

Definately try more timing. Most of the engines I dyno like 37-42* of timing with the advance locked.

Questions:
Is .024" the normal point gap?
What's the total cfm of your carbs?
With the engine shut off and the points closed, what is the voltage on the + side of the coil?
Balast resistor?


Suggestions:
Just use 1 set of points in the dual point distributor.
Don't look at the AF ratio except for info. Jet for the best power!!!!
As soon as you complete the dyno pull (immediately) smell the air in the dyno room to see if you can smell ANY exhaust.
Try a different coil...any kind.

Utmost importance: let the engine tell you what it wants...don't try to tell it.

I'd love to hear that engine on a dyno pull.

Ron

[Hudsonator]

I don't want to step on Ron's toes, but flatheads don't like that much timing. Particularly inlines.

If you're going to run a locked timing, start at 22* then move up with sucessive pulls, 38 is kinda excessive. A flathead's cylinder charge is monumentally more turbulent than an OHV and is very sensitive to timing, its really easy to get too high.

I foresee you enabling your mechanical advance, but limiting it somewhat to maybe 8-9* Crank degrees, you'll be surprized how responsive those, or any flathead, is to slight timing changes in the upper ranges.

Keep us informed, great stuff!

Hud

[moparsled]

Don't look at the AF ratio except for info. Jet for the best power!!!!

Ron

I didn't mention that the reasoning behind the A/F #'s watching was because initially he thought maybe the ignition was having trouble burning the "fat" charge. After leaning it some, and not loosing the stumble, we are now looking at ignition issues.

more pulls this morning.

[moose]

Have you got any videos of these pulls? We want to hear it!

[moparsled]

I have partial videos of the first two pulls. I finally remembered to bring the camera home, so I'll see if I can get them up. I'm probably going to wait for more video until the thing will rev right, but boy does it sound good above 4000, and so much better now than in the videos. Also keep in mind that you're not getting "full noise" cuz it's hooked to the exhaust pipe.

Lanier had a very busy day today, so only a couple more pulls, but there is some small progress. I changed the Magspark around to a traditional dual point setup, and changed to a regular coil. Timing is 28*. I also straightened up the carb linkage a bit, and dialed the carbs a bit closer together. It now pulls up to 4800, but there it begins to stumble again. More fighting with the ignition is in order. I want 6000 rpm, dammit!!!

peak h.p is up to 169.6@4250, same run peak torque 248.9@2750

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFIzQzxhHq8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyEmUJSyX0Y

[Mr. Mac]

It's been along time since I heard a flathead six sound that good.
Good Job!

[moose]

Very nice!

[64 DODGE 440]

Nice music!!

[Ron Golden]

Mopar,
Sounds and looks great.


Hud,
Thanks for the info on flathead ignition timing. I've never had one on the dyno.

Ron

[Hudsonator]

Peeking in, hoping for some news.

I was tossing Ron and Mopar's numbers around at the Rumble this weekend - folks were impressed with what you fellas are doing. The more I think about Ron's Jimmy, the more impressed I get.

The hit count on these dyno threads should tell us something, people are interested.

Hud

[moparsled]

I'm stuck!

this thing starts missing at 4750rpm, and I don't know what to try next to get it to quit. The engine is built capable, and acts like it wants to go, MAN does it catch R's quick from 2000 rpm to 4750. Then it picks up a miss.

Today they pulled the Magspark and red wires, replaced 'em with a bone stock distributor and cheapo wires. Same Crane coil, but with a ballast resistor. Total advance at 38*. No change. Added an MSD 6 box, no change in the miss, but it picked up a horse and a half!!

At this point we're all thinking the miss is not ignition related, but what are we looking for?
anybody got any ideas, hints, ANYTHING?

here is the link to the post I started on the main board
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=298125&highlight=mopar+dyno

tomorrow they're going to open the plug gap back up, recheck the dyno setup, and then????

[nexxussian]

I'm stuck!

this thing starts missing at 4750rpm, and I don't know what to try next to get it to quit. The engine is built capable, and acts like it wants to go, MAN does it catch R's quick from 2000 rpm to 4750. Then it picks up a miss.

Today they pulled the Magspark and red wires, replaced 'em with a bone stock distributor and cheapo wires. Same Crane coil, but with a ballast resistor. Total advance at 38*. No change. Added an MSD 6 box, no change in the miss, but it picked up a horse and a half!!



Chitty coil? Bum ballast? It would be hard to believe bad wires, with two sets, but weirder Chit has happened.

Do your AFR #s do anything weird during the 'miss' (weird as in not what's expected, which would be unburned fuel and air in the exuast)? Have you checked the coil has a good primary ground, ground strap between the engine and whatever the coil's grounded to? +12V to the ballast, +6V-8V (ish) coming out of the ballast? Reversed polarity at the coil?

All these are reaching I know, but you've already tried the obvious stuff.

[Hudsonator]

You wouldn't happen to know your manifold pressure right before the missing starts?

How's your A/F ratio just before it starts to miss. It may be time to bring in that pesky step-up jet.

You also might want to check your tappet clearances, flatheads have a tendency to close up your gap after break-in.

On the positive side, that rev-rate is kinda shocking huh? They'll get there in a jiffy.

[RichFox]

Just from running my Plymouth four flatmotor, I would back down the timing some more and see what happens

[mudflap261]

Is it possible to hook it up to a oscilloscope that would at least eliminate the electrical problem. what about point bounce maybe one weak valve spring?

[plym_46]

Couple very amaturish thoughts.

Step up jets in the carbs. These are designed so that the high vacuum signal from the manifold holds them closed against the spring. The vacuum drop during acceleration allows the spring to open the jet. If the springs are removed, I would think the needles would stay seated in the jets thereby not providing any enrichment.
make sure the slots in the carb to manifold gaskets allow the vacuum port to be open to the port in the base of the carbs.

Second, are you getting point bounce at the higher rpm? maybe stiffer springs for the points would help. Another thought on ignition; A slant 6 distributer can be modified to work in a flathead by switching the drive tang, and doing a bit of machining on the body to fit the hole in the block. Then you can run MOPAR early electronic ignition eliminating the points.

You might also consider some one inch or 1 1/2 inch spacers beween the carbs and the intake.

And as a personal observation 6K for and engine with nearly a 5 inch stroke might be expecting just a little more than is mechanically possible.

[woodscavenger]

That engine is too cool! I have a long block 237 with Spitfire head and I am envious! I have a question for you. I have been trying to figure if dual carbs are worth putting on the engine. Everyone seems to have a different opinion aout how much difference a dual carb/intake setup would make. I have never seen one of these Dynoed with single carb then dual carb.......wanna humor me? I doubt it but good luck with your setup. Can't wait to see your progress.

[Don Coatney]

Peeking in, hoping for some news.

I was tossing Ron and Mopar's numbers around at the Rumble this weekend - folks were impressed with what you fellas are doing. The more I think about Ron's Jimmy, the more impressed I get.

The hit count on these dyno threads should tell us something, people are interested.

Hud

Mark;
I really enjoyed conversing with you at the Rumble. Thanks for pointing me towards this thread. Did you pull that black Hudson onto the dyno rack after I left?

Moparsled;
I am running a dual point conversion in my long block Mopar flathead. I am not pushing for high RPM's but I have been up to 4500 a time or two. Just a tought on your misfire. For the dyno test get rid of the ballast resistor and run a full 12 volts through the coil.. This will shorten point life but for a dyno pull who cares.

I also agree with Hudsonator that too much spark advance is not good.

You mentioned that you added spacers under the spark plugs. During assembly of my engine I measured valve lift with a dial indicator to insure I had ample room for the spark plugs. My cam is 270 duration @410 lift for both intake and exhaust. Hudsonator mentioned that valve clearance can and will close up with heat and mileage. What was your initial valve lash setting? I think I set my valves at .014" cold. Have you indexed your plugs?

What is the depth of the spark plug threads in your head? I have heard of some aluminum heads with non standard plug thread lenghts.

I am also running dual B&B carburetors that I got from George Asche. I have a pair of Langdons Carter Webbers sitting on my bench but the longer I run the B&B's the better I like them.

Your engine and header setup really looks good. I hope to soon hear of a 200 HP pull.

[moose]

I've been looking in my engine design textbook, and I think the long stroke is making your problem. Seems the average piston speed is the real limit on the high end rpm.

"We will find that a fundamental limitation on the maximum gas flow is the occurrence of sonic flow at the valve aperture, and we will be able to relate this to the average piston speed"

Later on he notes that the upper limit for average piston speed(APS) is around 4000 feet per minute.

This APS is V = 2NS where N is RPM and S is stroke

If you're running a 230(?) then the stroke is 4-5/8" Changed to feet this is 0.3854. At an RPM of 6000, this would put your APS at 4625.

If you solve for N and use 4000 as the constraint it gives you a max RPM of almost 5200.

Since you're stuck at around 4750, it may be that you have an issue with a spring(point or valve) or that the valve size in this engine is too small. Smaller aperture-higher gas flow-quicker sonic flow conditions. I'm into these motors but I've never looked into changing valves. It is possible. The larger Chrysler engines had larger diameter valves with the same stem dia. and length.

Another option is going with a 218 crank 4-3/8" (0.3646 ft) stroke gives a max RPM of almost 5500. Though you may still run into the restriction you are seeing at 4750.

Take what you will from this, I'm not trying to rain on your parade. I want to hear your motor do it!



I'm stuck!

this thing starts missing at 4750rpm, and I don't know what to try next to get it to quit. The engine is built capable, and acts like it wants to go, MAN does it catch R's quick from 2000 rpm to 4750. Then it picks up a miss.

Today they pulled the Magspark and red wires, replaced 'em with a bone stock distributor and cheapo wires. Same Crane coil, but with a ballast resistor. Total advance at 38*. No change. Added an MSD 6 box, no change in the miss, but it picked up a horse and a half!!

At this point we're all thinking the miss is not ignition related, but what are we looking for?
anybody got any ideas, hints, ANYTHING?

tomorrow they're going to open the plug gap back up, recheck the dyno setup, and then????

[moparsled]

I emailed Earl Edgerton, he backed up what many of you have said- max rpm in his experiences is about 5200.
Hudsonator- what's the max you saw on your tractor?
He also echoed the "too much timing" comments, which I wholeheartedly agree with.

what gets me about this, is that the engine isn't running out of steam at 4750- there's more left in it. We are getting out of the throttle at that rpm because there is an audible misfire, miss, stutter, stumble, whatever, at that rpm. Also, and I have forgotten to mention this previously, it is in exactly the same spot whether under load or free-spinning.

I made an adapter hat tonight to fit a 4 barrell onto the 2x1 intake, if the 4bbl doesn't change anything, and the ignition doesn't change anything, then it must be mechanical.

[Hudsonator]

The maximum rpm on the pulling tractor was 6000 rpm when it was fresh. It would get there fast too. Even though it would turn 6000, I quit running it that high because it was way over the cam anyway. Off the line at 2700-3000, buzz it up to 5000-5500 on the track, and hold it there until the load pulled it back down to 4700-4500. No telling how many runs were made with this recipe.

Now, since the engine has aged, it won't turn over 5500 without the exact "bobbling" you are talking about when revved under no load. I passed it off to weakening valve springs. I never fixed it because it was a nice rev limiter that effected nothing below its "bobble" rpm.

The piston speed at that rpm is rather high, and will start to limit your ability to make power, but its not going to limit an engine's ability to attain a certain rpm. Its just that if you hold it at that rpm and the piston material can't handle it - you are pumping 6 pieces of shrapnel at critical velocity. That's the reason I quit whacking the tach at 6K. Somewhere between 5200-5500 is more reasonable, but still way high.

I would check the tappet gap, just in case. I still suspect that your valves have "settled" a bit and maybe cut your gap a little shy.

Hey Coatney! Ain't this interesting stuff? Good to see you here keeping up with developments. You'll catch this bug and have a HA/GR towed behind your pilgrim, I can see it now.

Hud

[moparsled]

GOOD NEWS!!!

Replaced the Autolite 295's with Autolite AR73's gapped at .035"
Replaced plug wires (3rd set)
fabbed a carb adapter using a flat plate bolted directly to the Edmunds dual intake, and bolted a single 4bbl top (just a lid basically) for a Weiand Team G tunnel ram to it. Edelbrock 1405 carb.

5100rpm!!!!

the air/fuel #'s were terrible, the horsepower was terrible, the "intake" was terrible, but we got some R's.

Turns out bad plug wires SUCK ASS!!!!

Pulled the four barrel junk off, put the B&B's back on, changed the #69 idle emulsion tubes for #71's, and ran it. Too lean, but NO MISS, and it HELD 4990 rpm.

On the low end, it peters out a little soon, between 1200-1400 rpm. I have a pair of #70 Idle emulsion tubes, I might stick them in, and I'm going to put the step up springs back in.
FINALLY we get to try to tune this thing!!!

[Hudsonator]

BINGO!! I'm glad it was a simple thing. Lots o' headache nonetheless, but at least it was found.

I have a feeling we'll be asking you for discourses on the venerable B&B by the time this is over. You're going in good directions now.

Have you taken any manifold pressure readings yet?

Hud

[nexxussian]

Sahweet! Glad it goes better.

[TraderJack]

Perhaps you had better think of the reason AutoLite has racing plugs!

traderjack

[moparsled]

Perhaps you had better think of the reason AutoLite has racing plugs!

traderjack

??????

[moparsled]

whole mess of dyno pulls today, and I would say progress has been made, however, I'm kinda two steps back at this point.

Tried to get the B&B's "in", and got to a place that wasn't perfect, but was satisfactory enough for me to leave. Fat, but not terrible, not as consistent as I'd like. Played with the timing some- it likes 34 to 36 degrees. Pretty close to earlier peak #'s

Pulled the exhaust pipe off--- HOLY CRAP IS IT RICH NOW!!!!!---screwed me up all over again. This thing is just dying for more air.

My jet selection is limited, but I put in the smallest idle emulsion tubes and step up jets I had, and cut two coils off each step up spring. This is where it was "satisfactory" with the tail pipe, and WAY rich without.

guess we'll try it Monday with no step up springs again.

[plym_46]

Some other Dyno numbers. I went to a cruie in at the college I used to work for. they have as part of their automotive technology facility a Mustang Dyno lab. This is a chassis deal with the rollers and eddy current braking resistance.

engine is a 230 56 plymouth, dual Carters on a Fenton intake, Single ezhaust, stock cam, .040 off the head, .010 of the block.

I limited the pulls to 70 mph.

got this at the wheels.

HP 74.2 @ 3328 RPM / 66.7 mph

Torque 157.6 @ 2430 / 48.9 mph

add 20% for drive train losses = 89.2 HP and 189 lb ft torque

engine was rated at 120 HP and 200 lb ft at the flywheel by the factory.

Has about 7k on it since a rebuild.

[TraderJack]

Autolite and Champion have made "racing plugs" for a LOOOOONG time. And the reason was that the normal plugs were not made for the temperatures in the combustion chambers in high performance engines. Plugs too hot will preignite like a glow plug does a diesel engine!

Spark plug wire is seldom a problem, as the voltage on the plugs wires is the same regardless of the revolutions of the engine as to the voltage carrying ability of the wire. barring , of course, resistor wires.

The problem with wires is not the core, but is the insulation on the wire which allows the current to jump to another wire or to the metal blocks. and that happens at both low and high revolutions of the engine.

If the coil and distributor are in good condition there should be no problem for an ignition system delivering all of the spark you need at those revolution, as long as the wires are not shorting , or jumping from wire to wire. At 5,000 rpm the coils delivering sparkt at about 500 times a second, and the usual coils will handlie that quite easily.

Ergo, problems in ignition at upper revolutions are usually in the spark in the combustion chamber

You could put a scope on the ignition system and see if the system is functioning properly at those revolutions.

But, that is the joy of internal combustion engines, triying to find out exactly what is happening.

I could be in error, but I think not, for I am an old man!


tradrjack

[moparsled]

two more runs tonight- open header. without step up spring, went lean. Next run put bigger main jet in, good A/F, no power.

tomorrow it goes back to Saturday's best setup, and maybe we try to choke down the exhaust some. This lends credence to the header being too big as mentioned previously.

once it's off the dyno I can get the chassis started. After all this with the engine, I'm a bit worn, I might take a break.

[Hudsonator]

two more runs tonight- open header. without step up spring, went lean. Next run put bigger main jet in, good A/F, no power.

tomorrow it goes back to Saturday's best setup, and maybe we try to choke down the exhaust some. This lends credence to the header being too big as mentioned previously.

once it's off the dyno I can get the chassis started. After all this with the engine, I'm a bit worn, I might take a break.

I know how you feel, been there with your exact carb setup.

You've heard me say that you'll need those step up jets, and that's where you are. They are entirely too big stock, you'll have to plug them and re-drill them to suit. We used a numbered drill and a brazing rod. Find a numbered drill that is close to the diameter of a good brass brazing rod, and drill that jet out to that diameter, press in a plug made from the brazing rod, then drill that out to .025" to start.

I still haven't measured the step-up springs in the B&B, but I have measured the springs in other Carter carbs such as the WGD/WDO/WCD etc. They are common to the power valve springs in the Edelbrock/Carter AFB. Which is nice for us dualing oldies, they come in pairs. Something you might want to consider when dialing that baby in, some variability in the vacuum point. Have you taken any manifold pressure readings?

It gets frustrating. Hang in there.

Hud

[moparsled]

at this point, there are some obvious issues with my overall engine plan. I'm ready to take the thing off the dyno for now, work on the chassis for awhile, and STUDY. The bottom end is clearly capable of withstanding my horsepower and rpm goals, but, IMO, the top end was poorly planned. Throwing parts at it arbitrarily doesn't cut it, and that's what I've been doing. I need to learn how to pick, or make, the RIGHT parts to achieve my goals.

[moparsled]

DONE!!!!

the engine is off the dyno!

another goof led to the last SNAFU. The points were burnt in the stock distributor. As I switched back to the Mallory I discovered loose wires leading from the coil to the points. Made sure everything was tight this time (duh)

171.5 hp.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDzgnn1se6I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQhLpWkaThI

videos of the last two pulls, one with tail pipe, one without. Both are to 5000rpm.

this winter's project, besides building the car, is to figure out where that other 30hp is hiding. It's in there, I just have to find it. Home made flowbench...here we come

[moparsled]

haven't been working on the chassis lately, but I got an opportunity to (learn how to )blueprint my engine, so I took it! I finished the teardown a couple days ago, and BOY AM I GLAD I decided to do this. ALL the main and rod bearings are SHOT! Fortunately, I caught it in time, nothing else is hurt.

Autopsy time! gotta figure out what went wrong and fix it. This also gives me time to "fix" my intake a bit, finish the new carb linkage, and redo some bellhousing/starter stuff I'm unhappy with.

seems counter productive to backtrack this far on my build, but, hopefully it will result in a more enjoyable racing season later on. (no breakage)

[64 DODGE 440]

haven't been working on the chassis lately, but I got an opportunity to (learn how to )blueprint my engine, so I took it! I finished the teardown a couple days ago, and BOY AM I GLAD I decided to do this. ALL the main and rod bearings are SHOT! Fortunately, I caught it in time, nothing else is hurt.

Autopsy time! gotta figure out what went wrong and fix it. This also gives me time to "fix" my intake a bit, finish the new carb linkage, and redo some bellhousing/starter stuff I'm unhappy with.

seems counter productive to backtrack this far on my build, but, hopefully it will result in a more enjoyable racing season later on. (no breakage)

Sled, I hope I'm wrong, but I think you will find the bearing problem is related to the RPMs you are turning that long stroke 230. In stock form they were seldom turned much over 3500 and you just may be approaching the limits of the stone age technology, what with the offset rods and such.

We're not planning on turning our 218 much over 4000, probably 4500 at the max and I doubt our set up is going to be putting anywhere near the load on the bearings that you are.

Good luck and keep us posted on your findings.

[esfoder]

haven't been working on the chassis lately, but I got an opportunity to (learn how to )blueprint my engine, so I took it! I finished the teardown a couple days ago, and BOY AM I GLAD I decided to do this. ALL the main and rod bearings are SHOT! Fortunately, I caught it in time, nothing else is hurt.

Autopsy time! gotta figure out what went wrong and fix it. This also gives me time to "fix" my intake a bit, finish the new carb linkage, and redo some bellhousing/starter stuff I'm unhappy with.

seems counter productive to backtrack this far on my build, but, hopefully it will result in a more enjoyable racing season later on. (no breakage)

Nice catch Mopar!!! I was not so lucky this week. One of my guys blew both sides out of a cat 3306 in a wheel loader. This is the first time I've seen cam shaft parts laying on the ground. I have a 10 pound box of block chunks sitting on my desk...

Off subject but glad to see ya dodge major trouble..


Later

Dusty

P.S. The cat dealer said they could put in a good "used engine" for $18,000.

No thanks

[Hudsonator]

Sled, I hope I'm wrong, but I think you will find the bearing problem is related to the RPMs you are turning that long stroke 230. In stock form they were seldom turned much over 3500 and you just may be approaching the limits of the stone age technology, what with the offset rods and such.

We're not planning on turning our 218 much over 4000, probably 4500 at the max and I doubt our set up is going to be putting anywhere near the load on the bearings that you are.

Good luck and keep us posted on your findings.

We turned our 230 in excess of 5000 rpms for years with no bearing problems, so its not the crank per se - if the oiling is going well?

Any pictures of your bearings? I'd sure like to see what's going on there too. I seem to recall a conversation we had about harmonic dampers and that you were running a naked crank snout.

About every little mopar I've seen has a mismatch between the oil hole in the main bearings and the supply hole in the main bearing saddle. You either have to relieve the block to match the bearings or elongate the bearing oil hole to match the block - could this be the problem?

Maybe numerous little sins that almost added up to a big failure - good thing you took the chance to blueprint it.

Keep us posted, please.

Hud

[moparsled]

We turned our 230 in excess of 5000 rpms for years with no bearing problems, so its not the crank per se - if the oiling is going well?

Any pictures of your bearings? I'd sure like to see what's going on there too. I seem to recall a conversation we had about harmonic dampers and that you were running a naked crank snout.

About every little mopar I've seen has a mismatch between the oil hole in the main bearings and the supply hole in the main bearing saddle. You either have to relieve the block to match the bearings or elongate the bearing oil hole to match the block - could this be the problem?

Maybe numerous little sins that almost added up to a big failure - good thing you took the chance to blueprint it.

Keep us posted, please.

Hud

Oiling is my suspicion right now-
at the top of the list is filtering- you guys will probably laugh at me for this, but, during the build I asked the machinist about leaving off the filter. The stocker is bypass, so I figured if I change the oil after every race, it's doing as much as a bypass filter. Unfortunately, 30 dyno pulls is more like a SEASON of racing, not ONE RACE, so the oil was DIRTY. I'm trying to figure out full pressure filtering right now.

second is the crank- I had it cross drilled, and I want to go back and look at all the holes and remind myself what was done. If it needs further drilling, or even some plugging, now is the time.

bearings- it had Clevite 77's, anybody have any input as to quality, design, or alternatives? They were installed as manufactured.

[ThingyM]

Clevite is all I ever use in my fuel altered..A very good product..

[Hudsonator]

I'm thinking oiling too. The reason being this is a main bearing problem. Even rpm related failures happen at the rod journals.

If things start going bad at the mains, everything else is screwed.

I'm thinking by the time you get done with this project, you'll have surpassed us all in expertise. The best knowledge is born of adversity.

Hud

[bob hindman]

Sometimes the oil pan needs a little workeeeee....


Hiney...

[moparsled]

I seem to recall a conversation we had about harmonic dampers and that you were running a naked crank snout.

started measuring the crank tonight, just for shits n grins, started rapping around on the weights- the front main and #1 rod don't have that nice crisp, pretty ring that the rest do. That's not exactly inspiring me with confidence at this point.

[moparsled]

Sometimes the oil pan needs a little workeeeee....


Hiney...

oil pan 2" deeper than stock, kicked out 1" on the right side, plus windage screen
6 quarts of Brad Penn 30wt

[moparsled]

crank magnafluxed ok, journals mic'd ok,

still have to measure rod and main housing bores, install bearings and remeasure.

[CrkInsp]

Pic's of the main bearings might be of some help. Why no balancer?

[moparsled]

Pic's of the main bearings might be of some help. Why no balancer?

I'd like to take pics of the bearings for everybody interested, but my crappy digital camera takes HORRIBLE close ups, all you'd see was blur.

I asked my builder about the balancer, before understanding what its true function is. I thought since the engine was balanced, perhaps that could be eliminated. The factory unit is little more than a weight and pulley bolted to a hub.
The builder told me "yes".
The hub remained, while the rest was eliminated. Found out later, after the damage was already done, that I NEED that DAMPER, not for balance, but for harmonics.

I intended then, to put a damper on before racing, but then the opportunity came to blueprint, so I took it. good thing I did, catastrophic failure sucks.

[Hudsonator]

Its possible that the damage was from dirt/grit/shavings from your build. I've seen that kind of unexplained bearing damage before - and it was crank grinding refuse trapped in the oil passages. We always scrub the crank out with a gun cleaning tip/rod - just in case. Block oil galleys too.

I still haven't found the main saddle and rod bore dimensions - I don't know where I found them before or where the heck I wrote them down. Its been too long since I did such.

Hud

[moparsled]

I still haven't found the main saddle and rod bore dimensions - I don't know where I found them before or where the heck I wrote them down. Its been too long since I did such.
Hud

Mark- thanks for looking! I got those dimensions from a local machine shop that does alot of old stuff. I would have probably gotten the crank back in the block last week, except we had a couple "snow days".

[moparsled]

a blueprinting update-

the main housings (and, subsequently the main bearing oil clearances) were all over the place, align honing an absolute necessity.

the rod housings were PERFECT, as were the rod bearing oil clearances.

the valve guides were WAY loose.

I'm going to correct the mains, the guides, and replace the rings (and the bad bearings), and get 'er back together so I can GET ON WITH IT!

[Hudsonator]

a blueprinting update-

the main housings (and, subsequently the main bearing oil clearances) were all over the place, align honing an absolute necessity.

the rod housings were PERFECT, as were the rod bearing oil clearances.

the valve guides were WAY loose.

I'm going to correct the mains, the guides, and replace the rings (and the bad bearings), and get 'er back together so I can GET ON WITH IT!

The valve guide looseness may have contributed to your rpm ceiling. Mopar stock valve springs aren't going to let you go above 6000, if the valves are bouncing around trying to seat, even less. You may have found your silver bullet.

Can't wait to see you put her back into action.

Hud

[moparsled]

The valve guide looseness may have contributed to your rpm ceiling. Mopar stock valve springs aren't going to let you go above 6000, if the valves are bouncing around trying to seat, even less. You may have found your silver bullet.

Can't wait to see you put her back into action.

Hud

I think at least part of my rpm issue was the carb linkage I had at the time of the dyno runs. the geometry was WAY off, but I didn't notice it until I put the modded carbs on. All that is now fixed. The valve springs in this engine are better than stock, so at some point I hope this thing is at least CAPABLE of more rpm, even if it won't make power up there.

[Satyr]

Wow.....that flatty is just 2 kewl...

[moparsled]

WOW!!!!

I can't believe it's been a YEAR since I posted to this thread!!!!!

Not that I've had much to report...

After a stint with unemployment I've been back to work since July, but I'm just now getting a few bucks ahead to get the HA/GR back on track (pun intended).

I ordered ARP main studs today, as soon as they show up the block goes to the machine shop (different shop than the botch-job from before) for align honing.

It'll be slow going, but I hope to have the engine back to operable condition for 2011.

[64 DODGE 440]

Good to know you are still around Sled. Hope this year is a good one for us all.

[RodStRace]

Have that crank checked again, too. Anything that doesn't 'ring' the same end to end makes me nervous....
Congrats on the job and Good Luck on the motor!!!

[CrkInsp]

By all means have the crank rechecked. If it doesn't ring the same from both ends, you have a problem. It might not be a surface defect (crack), but could be a subsurface defect in the material. If it was mag'ed using AC, subsurface defects could be missed.