My back hurts.

[Ryan]

Yep, it’s that time again. When I get stressed my left arm disappears, my shoulder locks up, and the back breaks. The only thing that can really help me at this point is pain medicine that I am really careful with. It numbs everything about me and makes me head work in over drive. I’m glad this doesn’t happen as much anymore… Once I get my career lined out and my future taken out of the pot of uncertainty I am positive I’ll be cool.

Think happy thoughts. Hot Rods.

The traditional thing is going to die. People are going to start wanting more. Maybe someone will do a Discovery channel show or maybe some hot shot will build a radically different hot rod using new materials and methods. I can respect that. I can respect the urge to be different and innovative – that’s what I do for a living, but how can we do this and stay true to our roots. I don’t think I will ever be anything more (or different?) than a traditional hot rodder.

I even try to stray a bit when I am awake at night and building cars in my head. I’ve built one of those Porsche 550 spyders a hundred times. I think about Le Mans in 1957 and that little silver car nailing apexes and struggling to keep up with the big Ferrari V12 on the straights. I think about distressed leather seats that look like they have 100,000 miles on them, but still have that European feel. I think about the sound and then…

You know, nothing sounds better than a flathead Ford. Nothing.

Autoweek interviewed me this week for a feature they are doing on traditional hot rods. I talked to the guy and tried my best to act like I was a big shot. Like I knew what I was talking about. Like I was important. It’s just not me. I gave up when I realized the guy was mostly interested in “South Florida Rat Rods.” He asked me why my car wasn’t in primer and how I felt about ply wood floors... I didn’t really have an answer. I hope the suits (they are car guys too…) don’t think of traditional hot rodding as a bunch of no-skill fuck heads with a welder. At the same time, I hope some car club in Florida doesn’t get pissed when he reads my statements about rat rods… Usually, rat rodders grow up to be traditional rodders don’t they? Jesus, this subject is an old and stupid one.

Regardless, it is time to do something new. Something that hasn’t been done before. A performance car for the ages… How would you build a traditional hot rod with the styling and flare of a late 30’s European race car. They are two similar styles really – kind of the bobber mentality for the automobile. The shapes are consistent with some of our better known and early salt flat cars… and the mechanics are gorgeous. Germans always had a knack for it – while Italians were making things pretty, Germans were making things perform. Even their utilitarian cars looked more purposeful than ours. Everything had its place and everything in its place.

If I was Cole Foster… If I had the talent… If…. I wouldn’t be building another ’32 roadster or maybe I would be, but it would be different and it would be traditional.

[Ryan]

...

[Ryan]

....

[Ryan]

.......

[Ryan]

..........

[Ryan]

...............

[Plowboy]

I was watching the "speed" channel the other night about the Delehaye and thought similar things. Unfortunately the end result is usually just a cigar with wheels and it seems they all look alike. Those Delahayes were Gorgeous though, it would be nice to have one to cut up! that hasn't been done before (except for Foose and his new Whatthehaye). I'll shut up now.

[Ryan]

done.

[NealinCA]

I like when Ryan is on the meds, we see and here some neat stuff. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Neal

[Roothawg]

That's kinda what I was thinking of doing on another day, another project. An aluminum bodied, 4 cylinder, open wheeled,lotsa louvers,single seated bad mofo.

[Petejoe]

[ QUOTE ]
You know, nothing sounds better than a flathead Ford. Nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ryan, I don't care.. I love the Hemis, Big blocks nailheads and Y-blocks. But absolutely nothing has the tone and raw power sound of a flathead. I always stated that it was a combination of sounds. John Deere and a Harley.
I love the look of the fender metal blended to the contour of the wheels. Yes... To hell with Building another new traditional 32. These ideas are cool and refreshing.
I am getting alittle older now but I tell you, I am really impressed with the imagination and talent of the young people here and elsewhere. You my young friend are in for a treat when you get to be an old fart. Just wait!

[haring]

Ryan, I just had my 4th session of SPINAL INJECTIONS yesterday. Yahoo! Imagine something from an X-Men comic, and you'd get a close picture. I tell myself that they are slowly building the MUTANT ME. It's the only thing that keeps me from crawling into a corner and crying myself to sleep.


I will build something like this one day ...

INSPIRING:


**funny little observation: check out how the red car is leading the silver car in 1937, after the reverse was true for 1936. Same cars. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

http://imagesource.allposters.com:80/images/VAS/0000-2908.jpg

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/VAS/0000-0522-5.jpg

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/VAS/0000-0279-6.jpg

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/VAS/0000-0276-6.jpg

[choprods]

I always thought Id like to build a completely hand built car.....but then ,it probably would resemble a streetBeast. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Ryan writes : "maybe some hot shot will build a radically different hot rod using new materials and methods. I can respect that."

You and Roothawg have just described the T-bucket I'm designing in Autocad. Traditional in appearance but modern in most respects.

Oh....I'm no hotshot by any stretch of the imagination... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Roothawg]

I can't even operate autocad........

[choprods]

Or worse yet it would be some fuckin HUGE monstrosity like Jay Lenos BigHogmobile!

[Deuce Rails]

[ QUOTE ]
I even try to stray a bit when I am awake at night and building cars in my head. I’ve built one of those Porsche 550 spyders a hundred times. I think about Le Mans in 1957 and that little silver car nailing apexes and struggling to keep up with the big Ferrari V12 on the straights. I think about distressed leather seats that look like they have 100,000 miles on them, but still have that European feel. I think about the sound and then…

You know, nothing sounds better than a flathead Ford. Nothing.

...

Regardless, it is time to do something new. Something that hasn’t been done before. A performance car for the ages… How would you build a traditional hot rod with the styling and flare of a late 30’s European race car. They are two similar styles really – kind of the bobber mentality for the automobile. The shapes are consistent with some of our better known and early salt flat cars… and the mechanics are gorgeous. Germans always had a knack for it – while Italians were making things pretty, Germans were making things perform. Even their utilitarian cars looked more purposeful than ours. Everything had its place and everything in its place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neal's right about the meds!

Ryan, what you describe is pretty much what I'm trying to accomplish with my 32 Ford bottail project.

--Matt

[Django]

I have been wanting to build a flathead belly tank with fenders on each wheel. Fenders like on an Indian, covering the wheels a bit more. I don't have the skills, so I thought I'd throw that concept out there to those of you that do.

[Morrisman]

[ QUOTE ]
Or worse yet it would be some fuckin HUGE monstrosity like Jay Lenos BigHogmobile!

[/ QUOTE ]

Just think, you could stay up late every night for years, dreaming of something new and groundbreaking, then have half the members of the HAMB calling you a useless asshole turkey-brained fuckwit the first time you show the car http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Now THAT is motivation enough for anyone to build just another boring-black-trad-32-with-a-flaphead http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[praisethelowered]

I also strive every day in my real (non-car) life to make things that are new . . . so I really find comfort in the the "traditions" of rods and customs. But, I think it's only a matter of time before we start seeing some more cars that are "traditional" AND "new". There are probably a bunch of guys stepping up right now in garages all over the world.

I think a lot of us wanted some soul in our builds and "retro" was an understandable way to get there. But it is also an easy way for outsiders to pigeonhole a diverse group of creative and talented car builders. Cars that portray thier builders as wishing for a bygone era start to seem a bit cynical.

Forward movement is inevitable. Culture is not a pendulum that will swing back and forth between rat-rods and high-tech as some people want to think. Culture branches in different directions. . .some branches die and others thrive and push forward into different directions of thier own.

I can't figure out if zero choppers are "new" or "old". . it doesn't matter. . . they re-arrange all the parts, introduce new proportions, re-invent without wishing for a bygone era. They have soul without being "retro".

European sports cars, salt flat racers, lowriders, luxury cars, airplanes, choppers and bmx bikes can all be interesting influences. I will never be a "ruler" in the custom car world myself, but I look forward to watching what evolves.

The 90's were interesting. . . seeing traditional rods pump life back into the car scene. . but what happens next will be even more interesting.

[RPW]

Well spoken. I spent a great deal of time at the Mercedes museum in Stuttgart looking at them... What I admire is the 30´s German feeling for quality, the workmanship, and their special feeling of functional design. These cars are machines made to perform.
And that is the problem with the current trend in rodding: Poor workmansship, lack of design and poor quality are in many "trend rodders" eyes suddenly advantages and too many looks in that direction. To me it will never be an advantage, and not to any real rodder I guess.
I guess that is the thing that eventually will kill the trend of "shot rods". But then real good builders (like Vern Tardel and the Kennedy Brothers...) will go on building good rods forever...

[Fat Hack]

Y'all remember when HOT ROD magazine built a car called "Black Fog"? It was in the 80s sometime, and it turned out kinda ugly...and didn't work out well at all.

BUT...I followed the series of articles relating to it's build-up with interest and enthusiasm because it was something different, yet something that was being built by automotive craftsman of the day...I liked it's SPIRIT, if not it's final destination!

I also dug it to no end when Buttera built his Buick powered Indy cars...just the idea of one hot rodder building a machine THAT intense, that purpose-built in his shop, and then hauling it to Indy to hear and see it qualify for the Big Race...I can't even imagine the goosebumps that would give ya!!!

I was just working on my 49 with my nine year old neice today, and she's a talker...she said something about building a skateboard bike...and described the idea...it was kinda corny...but fresh out of her own head. She said "Maybe the idea is dumb!". I told her "If nobody thought up or tried new things, we'd all be doing the exact same thing...and that would get boring real quick."

There's always room for innovation, experimentation and self-expression...

...even within the "rules"...because the 'rules' are always changing as we move forward!

I'll never have the talent, or the money to build anything but my Hack-Mobiles, but the very THOUGHT of building something like a streamliner, Indy car, LeMans racer or even a full race motorcycle produces a type of awe that is hard to put into words!


http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Petejoe]

One of the reasons I love the styles of the mid to late 30 fords is the windswept design of the fenders..Absolutely beautiful

http://www.autogallery.org.ru/k/l/37linZephyrcpe3spd_CCT.jpg
http://www.frontwheel.com/diecast/ConceptCars/images/Pc220020-LincolnZephyer.jpg
And All of these vehicles are designed from this idea...
Burlington Silver Streak Zephyr train (http://new.idsa.org/webmodules/articles/anmviewer.asp?a=291&z=62)

[Donzie]

Great concept but limited use (one seater). How about a scaled down Aururn Boattail with a track nose and cycle fenders? 2 seater with a European race car look.
How would it look with the seats inline like a bi-plane? Too long?
Just ideas.

[Ryan]

You know when you channel an a-roadster over an a-frame and the proportions just look wrong? That's what you have to avoid...

The real focal point for these late 30s cars is the wheel base and the location of the axles relative to the body. The axles almost separate themselves from the machine by the use of swoopy body panels combined with incredibly tall rubber. That sets the stage for the performance feeling - its all about getting power to the ground. And the power comes from whatever the hell is under those long hoods...

So, put that together in your mind with something like a '29 roadster body. Push the grille shell (track nose) and the front axle out, shorten and bob the rear decklid - almost a boat tail, but not quite... It's snubbed. I think the biggest challenges would be the bellypan, the channel amount, and deciding how much to narrow the body.

I don't know what I have in my head really yet, but it shares a lot of lines from both the '32 and '29 Ford roadsters... Of course, the body would just hint at these simularities as the real deal would be out of scale... Where's Chris Ito when you need him?

[AHotRod]

Interesting views put into words.

[JOECOOL]

I read ,I listen ,I learn. Lets be realistic,a lot of us are in fact followers. I don't pretend to be an inovator,at best a copier.
I built Drag Cars for years and then one day I pulled into the parking lot at work. There was a 33 pickup, a little rough around the edges, calling to me and wanting to be used. Luckily Rocky wouldn't give me the key or I wouldn't have ever brought it back.Who would have guessed, no paint and wire wheels!
Drag racers face a lot of the same problems as traditional rodders, some insist on building every tiny component themselves and others are happy to pay the price. The money people and the low- buck folks tend to lose respect for each other quickly.
I guess what I want to say is there are very few that can visualize and bring to life the dreams. I will have to be happy having a piece of this and a piece of that and hope it makes it home.I will support and applaud anyone who reaches out and builds their dream.
Sometimes this board gets pretty hard on posters,I try to remember that I love ALL cars ,NOT JUST MINE.

[raven]

This is almost better than sex.
r

[NealinCA]

[ QUOTE ]
Great concept but limited use (one seater).

[/ QUOTE ]

I fell in love with this car when it was at my boss's 4-banger get together in March. 2 seater, late 20's/early 30's Indy car inspired.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/image_uploads/330722-1930%20indy%20car.jpg

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/image_uploads/330725-1930%20indy%20car%202.jpg

My dad has pictures of his uncle's model T based race car, which was similar to the one pictured above. I would like to build a clone of it someday.

Neal

[4t64rd]

I had a drawing I did in '95 of a 27 T track roadster with wheel pants on all 4 wheels. Kinda like that silver arrow Mercedes in the first picture. Looked good with Gee Bee scallops.

When I'm making a mold for the Edsel track nose for SSTAV8, I might just make up some wheel pants to match. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Roth worked in 'glass.

This is a quicky using the Roadster from the Poli-form site:

[DrJ]

Thanks for the pics....
Sorry your back's hurting again.

Here's a long hood, "streamlined" Bugatti Atlantic

[metalshapes]

What I had in mind when I buit my car was a Traditional Hot Rod that is instantly recognisable as a Model A Roadster, but with strong infuences of 30s European Road Track Racers.
But I probably screwed up a little by putting the Hardtop on.

Building a swoopy Aluminum body like you are talking about would take it that much farther.

Take a look at Tam's Old Race Car Site, There are some pics there of the Tom Bamford Cad Alfa.
Hand built Aluminum body, Prewar Alfa Chassis, Halibrand Smoothy Knockoffs and Q/C rear, Cad engine.
Equal parts Hot Rod/ Special/ 30's Euro Race car...
This car was recently found, and I have seen it in person.
It is awesome...

[JamesG]

Heres you a real one Petejoe....

http://www.frontwheel.com/diecast/ConceptCars/images/Pc220020-LincolnZephyer.jpg
http://i16.ebayimg.com/02/i/02/0e/9e/cc_3.JPG
Price: US $79,500.00 (http://i16.ebayimg.com/02/i/02/0e/9e/cc_3.JPG)

[OldCarPilot]

Hell I don't really know anything about what I'm doing. But I'm having a really good time doing it. I don't think in all my life I've ever just gone out day after day and spent hour after hour on something. Making very little noticable progress all the way. But I LOVE it. I'm sure as hell not making anything ground breaking, just having fun rebuilding and copying. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Rocky]

YEAH! I hear ya! While I'm messing around with my old pontiac coupe, I'm thinkin "inline engined lakes modified with mucho art-deco styling"......when I try to put these thoughts out of my brain, I can't help but remember what FlyinJ1's saving for me at his house....can't talk about it but Ryan, you'd understand....you'd know....you'll see.

[Ryan]

Steve Moal has flirted with all of this and his craftsmanship is amazing I hear... I love his cars, but the designs are almost too pretentious for this idea. I think this car needs to look like a race car - not a show car. By that, I mean everything should have a function and if it is a really predominate feature, that function should be just as obvious.

Compare this Moal car to one of the Mercs above. The Merc has better lines… I think that is because the older car wasn’t restrained by trying to hold on to some other car’s lines. I think the body we speak of would have to be scratch built. Maybe we do lose all recognizable Ford lines and the hot rod part comes in with the details and the actual mechanics – flathead, banjo rear, Ford top loader, drilled early juice brakes, etc…

[DrJ]

It's really simple to do on a '31 Ford, just give it the body to hood proportions of a '31 Chevy!

[DrJ]

I was aiming for that longer hood idea with this car.
It's runnig an inline 6.
I'll finish it some year, if I ever stop changing things.
It doesn't look much like this anymore, different grill, box/trunk instead of the bed and an alyouminium tank hanging off the back "Gabby" gow style.

[porknbeaner]

Remember everyone can be cool twice in a lifetime if you hold still long enough.
when it was cool the first time and then when it comes around again.
There is still alot to be done with traditional rods and remain true to our roots.
Tuyrbos, injection blowers, streamlinning, just take what ya got and refine it. That's what the original rodders did.
Grab ahold of whatever you like in the line of a trad rod, and make it the most better you can. Then tweek it somemore.
How 'bout a 160 mph streetable zephyre for instance. already got fair lines, add your own personal touches and then build the worlds most radical extreme drivetrain to go under it.
The possibilities are endless, your only limited by your imagination, and your budget.
Oh never mind, when this ride is over just hold still it will come back around.

[Nads]

Ryan I was about to mention the latest Moal creation. I got the new Street Rodder and I was blown away.
I, for one, have far reaching tastes in all things automotive. Shit, I'd love to have a stock Facel Vega, that's a car I could live with.

I apologize profusely for Florida and I hope we can better ourselves because there's no excuse for building shitty stuff. I'm serious.

I hope you feel better soon.

[Ryan]

And it just came to me... The reason the Mercs look so right, I mean...

We are building hot rods out of cars that were originally built for the street. These Mercs were built from day one to go fast... Everything about them is all about purpose. That's what is holding us "back."

[Ryan]

It's amazing how long I had to think about this damn car to figure it all out...

[DrJ]

The nose design on that Moal car is straight off a Alpha Romeo from the 30s.
That's the style of cars Ryans talking about, I think...
30's gow jobs, and '40s hotrods aren't/weren't much diffeent in concept from the European/British short run or even one off sports cars of the same eras.
There was a '32 Ford at the Road Kings Picknic a few years ago that had a body similer in concept and proportions to the Moal car and the sports cars of the 30s,a nd people were saying. "That doesn't look like a '32 Ford"
Well, it was.
It was all '32 Ford Frame and various Ford running gear with the driver set back right in front of the rear axle close in engine location (stock, with a big void before the firewall started) proportions to a Lotus 7.
It just didn't have a stitch of Ford body on it.
It's more like the "Classic Car" idea where the frame is the car, and the body is hand made, where as "Hotrodders/Streetrodders" have pretty much reversed that for years and made the body the only part that counts, and the frame, running gear and engine the do what you will part.
As in "Resto Rods"
Ryan is being a Revolutionary, again...Watch Out!!!
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Kevin Lee]

I've got ideas. I'm collecting parts. And I've learned a lot so far from my present build.

Biggest problem as I see it is you need a pretty big channel - for lack of a better word. And even if you do some sort of frame Z or swoopy tube frame to drop the driver down, you've still got the axles shoved way into the body to keep the right attitude with those big wheels - and it has to have big wheels. So where does the driveshaft go?

I think the Edsel Speedster was a pretty good start - and something close to that would look ten times as "racecar" if it was painted silver. I'm rambling. My boss just left so I'm leaving to get some flathead parts ready to bolt on....lets just tear the front off my roadster and rework it to make something that fits a stock radiator.

[metalshapes]

American Hot Rodders really studied these cars in the 50s.
In those last 2 pics you can see a Indy Roadster and a Bonneville Streamliner...

Edit,
Ryan's two last pics...

[2tall2beahotrodder]

Im young and stubborn... I beleive Rat rodders evolve more into the traditional style over the years,
but I have so god damn many ideas running through my head .. it hurts http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

heres a quicky...

[JamesG]

[ QUOTE ]
And it just came to me... The reason the Mercs look so right, I mean...

We are building hot rods out of cars that were originally built for the street. These Mercs were built from day one to go fast... Everything about them is all about purpose. That's what is holding us "back."



[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about you Ryan, but the only thing holding me back is money! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Seruously though, I can't wait to see what you come up with.

[2tall2beahotrodder]

and another shitty drawing...

Too poor for non-lined paper

[Kevin Lee]

I was going to say earlier that a I think hot rodders build the mechanicals to fit under the bodies and those cars look like they built the chassis first and then figured out a pleasing way to skin them. Man, I need to go work on this flathead stuff.

[Foul]

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/image_uploads/482797-m2.jpg


This car reminds me a lot of this one


http://danielstrohl.com/schenckstreamliner.jpg


It's Ralph Schenck's streamliner built for the lakes in 1938. The engine was a 1925 Chevrolet block with a 3 port Olds head, model B Ford crankshaft, Hudson water pump. Got that info shortly after Ralph passed away last year.

I'm getting real interested in the older race cars, especially the road racers and the hillclimbers and the cars I photographed at Mt. Washington a couple weeks ago. It'd be big bucks to try and find original racers and restore them, but it might be fun to build something in the spirit of, say, the Old Gray Mare or the Ardent Alligator.

Just some ideas, man. It's frustrating to have more ideas than outlets, I know.
dan

[Ryan]

[ QUOTE ]
30's gow jobs, and '40s hotrods aren't/weren't much diffeent in concept from the European/British short run or even one off sports cars of the same eras.


[/ QUOTE ]

You are right - not that much difference, but it is these little differences that all add up to make the early European race cars so much more functional in design.

Look at this car:

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/image_uploads/330725-1930%20indy%20car%202.jpg

Very close to some early cars like I have shown, but much less sophisticated. It is cluttered.

Ralph was very close with this car (hand made body):

http://danielstrohl.com/schenckstreamliner.jpg

I think it all boils down to the purpose of the car when it was originally built. We can't compete with the lines of one of these early Mercs if we are starting with a '32 roadster... It's not going to happen.

Now, I don't want to sound like I am forgetting why I love early american hot rods. I do and will always... The cluttered look I mentioned above is american character and ingenuity in metal. That's one of the great things about hot rods...

But god are those grand prix and early german speed cars gorgeous...

[NoSurf]

Did you see that article on the Edsel Ford Speedster in Rodder's Journal.

Pretty neat.

http://www.edsel.com/pages/e34.jpg

[moondisc]

http://i16.ebayimg.com/02/i/02/2b/59/0e_1.JPG
You can stay traditional and have a sporty type car.

One pill makes you larger and, one pill makes you small. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Kilroy]

The main problem I have in my mind is scrub line...

You can say fuck it if it's a lakes car but I don't think anything lower than the rim looks right on a street car (open wheeled hot rod, Kustoms are a different animal but I tend to stand by it with them also). It's about that function dictating form thing. A car that skrapes the ground will eventually and that's bad at speed.

You can put the the wheelbase anywhere and move the engine anywhere but getting the right bellypan depth and body thickness is the real bitch.

[surf monkey]

i can see where your going with this ryan (i hope) especially with the back stuff...i`m waiting for the good old british national health to provide me with an epidural [sp] to my spine so they can put the discs back where they belong...anyway back to the cars..there was a an `A` roadster built over here for a guy named Jim Pantal that pretty much met the criteria
the car to me always seemed more streamlined than a normal `A` roadster even though its a pretty close representation of an original `A` ( this is a hand formed `clone` from aluminium )check out the photos .....my next statement is probably pure bunkum but i`m gonna say it anyway.....colour...if you check out the shots that ryan put up here they are all light in colour if not silver.... to me silver makes a car more streamlined more aerodynamic than any other colour.....put 2 merc slk`s side by side one red and one silver which looks more streamlined....like i said i might be talking crap but look next time you see a silver car....heres the `A` i was talking about....full riley running gear
monkey

[surf monkey]

one more
monkey

[Sailor]

I have been laying low on the HAMB for a long time, but this thread is damn interesting and a whole lot less narrowminded than much of the stuff I read on her these days. Coolness i everywhere; there are loads of interesting moments in the carhistory, that doesnt have anything to do with 49 Mercs and 32 roadsters at all. Im pretty sure some of these moments, cars, races, engines, designs, and general crazy ideas can be used to create something cool in the hotrod world...

Get well soon, bro.

(I have had a stack of cards of those Monaco-posters since I was a kid btw. Awesome stuff!)

[Revhead]

I've always wantedto build a car similar to this, but the body work alone is out of my reach

[NealinCA]

I've got to find the pics of the Ardun powered hand built sports car that was built by a guy in my quiet little town...

[Bob K]

Surf Monkey:

That is sweeeeeeet. I love it.

B http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif B

[Roothawg]

[ QUOTE ]
Great concept but limited use (one seater).

[/ QUOTE ]

It's kinda like having a bobber. Who cares if anyone rides with you...it's all about attitude and performance.

[Roothawg]

[ QUOTE ]
i can see where your going with this ryan (i hope) especially with the back stuff...i`m waiting for the good old british national health to provide me with an epidural [sp] to my spine so they can put the discs back where they belong...anyway back to the cars..there was a an `A` roadster built over here for a guy named Jim Pantal that pretty much met the criteria
the car to me always seemed more streamlined than a normal `A` roadster even though its a pretty close representation of an original `A` ( this is a hand formed `clone` from aluminium )check out the photos .....my next statement is probably pure bunkum but i`m gonna say it anyway.....colour...if you check out the shots that ryan put up here they are all light in colour if not silver.... to me silver makes a car more streamlined more aerodynamic than any other colour.....put 2 merc slk`s side by side one red and one silver which looks more streamlined....like i said i might be talking crap but look next time you see a silver car....heres the `A` i was talking about....full riley running gear
monkey


[/ QUOTE ]

You're right Monkey, if you notice all new concept cars seem to be silver. It's fast.

[DrJ]

[ QUOTE ]


You're right Monkey, if you notice all new concept cars seem to be silver. It's fast.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honda paints all their prototypes Silver, (and repaint other colors too to test them) It's like some kind of "Standard" to judge the design with I think.
So all the body ideas get judged without color prejudices playing maybe?

The MB cars are all silver because that's Germany's Racing color.
Ferarris are red because Italy's color is red. USA is White and Blue, (most throw in a little red)

[metalshapes]

[ QUOTE ]


The MB cars are all silver because that's Germany's Racing color.


[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of people think that, but it is not.
The German national Racing color is White.

But it became Tradition for the Germans to race Silver cars after a Mercedes failed Tech for being a couple of pounds over the legal limit.
So The MB team stripped the paint off theyr cars and raced them in bare Aluminum...

[Tman]

One of our regulars at the shop has been planning a car like that Merc for many years, he is retired and always rides alone anyway.........I showed him this thread and he got VERY wound up!

[Boones]

I think this car started in the right direction, could have gone alittle further to get where I think you are going...

[Boones]

from the same shop that painted the above

[Unkl Ian]

Silver Gray lets you see the shape,without getting distracted by the color.

[Boones]

Here is a timeless style. not a great picture.. this one was chopped slightly with a custom leather and ? (snake, alligator or other animal) interior. again from the same shop..

[bogey]

My take on traditional is homebulit Saturday mornings in the garage making it work, thats the stisfaction in the whole thing, Hard work and friends makes a better hot rod than writing checks

[brutus t maximus]

hoooooray!!! Ryan

i like the way your mind works on med's, take another and start typing.

seems like you hit a cord with the guys here on the board and sure as hell have with me with this one.

i don't think there is a person alive that is a car nut that hasn't dreamed of designing and building a one off car of their own. And to those ends i am no different.

the 30's cars have so much appeal to me, the bugatti's, cord, dusenburgs, and my favorite the 35 auburn boattail speedster, wow.

over the years i like most everyone else have been thru countless scrap yards and the like, and have seen a couple of fenders here, a hood there etc etc. with just about the right shape to fit my idea of a cool curvy, swoopy fendered car, along with all sorts of unusual mechanicals that at least i think would be neat to work with and intergrate into an unusual car.

engines for example, take the straight eights, talk about a long nose car, with multi carbs, side draft and a bunch of header pipes exiting, at least i think it would be cool.

probably get kicked in the balls for this one, but the Z motors with there inline 6 overhead cams, and at least in the original cars look huge, might be cool in a rod, maybe?

i got to get this damn old 55 done and one the road first, by the time i do there probably won't be any affordable iron to work with, so will probably have to build the chassis from scratch, body it with hand laid up glass, and put a geo metro motor in it.. yuk!!!

bob g

[Hackerbilt]

Performance gives a car reason to exist.
It's why I like the "Specials"...the sport rods...the Brooklands cars and anything else of that ilk.
The Doane Spencer Roadster we all know and love is NOT the same car Doane Spencer intended it to be you know... HE had visions of a racer in his fertile mind, but it was never completed. The car was later reassembled, by the guy he sold it to, into the vehicle we know today.

Appreciation of early racecar engineering is more TRADITIONAL than any flat black, red wheeled DEATH rod can ever hope to be!!!
It's where the ORIGINAL Rodders received THEIR inspiration.

Bill

[Mojo]

I've always been a big fan of the 30's Autounions. The mechanical aspect... the complex 12 and 16 cylinder engines sitting mid-chassis, and then there was those incredible body shapes... made for some of the most interesting cars of that period.

I think back then, car designers were mechanical engineers by trade, only because it allowed them access to their true love, working with shapes. Look at old Millers... even their drivetrain parts, the suspension arms and driveshafts.. were beautiful to look at. They were funtional first and foremost, but they snuck design in there when they could.

[DrJ]

[ QUOTE ]
hoooooray!!! Ryan
...
probably get kicked in the balls for this one, but the Z motors with there inline 6 overhead cams, and at least in the original cars look huge, might be cool in a rod, maybe?
...
bob g

[/ QUOTE ]

Like this?
Same red Model A I posted earlier.
This 240-Z engine and a '51 Ford flat 6 fit in it.

[roadstar]

Hey Ryan,I've been a big fan of Steve Moal for a long time.

He thinks outside the bun http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[ QUOTE ]
Steve Moal has flirted with all of this and his craftsmanship is amazing I hear...

[/ QUOTE ]

The earlier black cars were much better designs than the red one pictured. And a cooler guy with knowledge of both hot rods and Euros does not exist. He is a super "regular" guy who does not talk down to anyone.

[hankcash]

"here he comes, Here comes Ryan, he's a demon on wheels"

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
HC

[hammeredabone]

Ryan, I love that first MB you have pictured, I would love to do something like that but more in the old yeller vein. Keep those big pontoons with blowin crank driven ardun under that long hood. No frills such as trim like the Delehaye. Maybe with Duvall windsheild.Building that body would be kick ass! Build a buck, get some 3003 h14 .040 and GO TO FUCKING TOWN!!!
Putting pontoons on Dr.J's hot rod with the 37 truck shell would be cool with a boat tail.
I have always liked the Curtis Indy style roadster thats a two seater. I think there was a pic of it here a while ago. Too wide for the pontoons though.
Excellent thread!

[Tony Bones]

Ryan touched on something interesting here regarding guys like Cole who are super talented.

Why not build some Coach Cars? You know, cars that are totally one-off, hand hammered works of art. Swoopy, beautiful art.

They could still be traditional w/ flatties, old style interiors, etc. They'd just be totally unique. Basically, what a skilled metal worker would have done back then.

I've got a couple of old little pages w/ this type of stuff in it. Pretty nifty.

Oh, and when you all hop on this bandwagon and want to unload your Deuces for cheap let me know http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Broman]

Man it's late and this thread is too interesting to pass - so I hope this ends up being semi-intelligible....


I won't feign to be a suck-up and pretend that I want to build a car like Ryan. In fact I don't want to. I wan't to build a car like Moriarity, but that's another post subject. In the interest of conversation though I will say that the early racers pictured above are inspiring as hell.

Think about the times man. Cars were like lunch boxes on wheels and then there were these land missles. They must have been like UFOs to onlookers. Those designs are so above our heads that they would be concidered "modern" if you slapped some 20"x15" inch rims and rubber on them!!

And as far as trying to figure out what kind of car Ryan has rattling around in his head - that could take a team of designers.........let's go!!!

Thinking in terms of a 32 or a Model A turned sleek racer, well I think there have been some decent examples posted already, but they still miss the mark. The Mercedes' are so slender and they "flow" differently. If we use a Duece as our base - we're going to have to section the hell out of it. Let's face it, the siloette of a duece is similar to that of a barn......but it's a cool barn man, don't get me wrong.

I need to sleep on this one.....

[Dreamweaver]

Ryan,

I hear ya talking.

Ive often considered the El Caballo to be a type of car to be mimiced, big v8 yet a road racer.

Take a look at this guys work for variations on a theme.

Metal shaped body (http://allshops.org/cgi-bin/community/communityalbums.cgi?action=openalbum&albumid=99901 34114731&ownerid=9990110609238)



http://allshops.org/community/CommunityAlbum/9990134116439.jpg


More from the same shop (http://allshops.org/cgi-bin/community/communityalbums.cgi?action=openalbum&albumid=99801 34114426&ownerid=9990110609238)

[DrJ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Or worse yet it would be some fuckin HUGE monstrosity like Jay Lenos BigHogmobile!

[/ QUOTE ]

Just think, you could stay up late every night for years, dreaming of something new and groundbreaking, then have half the members of the HAMB calling you a useless asshole turkey-brained fuckwit the first time you show the car http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Now THAT is motivation enough for anyone to build just another boring-black-trad-32-with-a-flaphead http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

If some people don't hate your art work, (and these cars are artwork) you didn't push any envelopes orwork outside the mediocrity box at all. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[timebandit]

I guess you are talking about the real roots of hot rodding. In Europe they didn`t build hot rods. They built race cars. Hot rodding evolved from the poor kids trying to mimic the race cars using what they had at hand at a very limited budget. Very often they raced hopped up flathead v8s with great sucsess. Nothing beats busting a Bugatti with a home built "ford v8 special".

[willowbilly3]

Trends and fads are continually changing and the wheel is continually re-inventing itself. I think the "rat rods" are a knee jerk revolt to the high dollar billet trailer queens that rods morphed into. Who knows, maybe in another ten years we will all be building goofy shit like those old Barris toilet and pool table rods.
I saw an early fiftys Mecedes roadster with the prewar American lines, that couldn't muster much of a bid on ebay after running twice and I thought how cool it would be with the drive train from a 500SL or one of those old leviathon 6.9 motors.
Those fiftys and early 60s indy type cars have to be the sexiest roadsters of all time as the photos in this thread show. How about a street version of an early 60s fronty or an old Curtis sprinter. I have even thought of a street version of a 70s sprint car as these are still laying around and can be had for cheap. Or better yet one of the 70s champ cars as they last ran at places like Oswego up into the 80s. After all if you take the traditional hot rod back to it's roots they were basically emulating the race cars of the day.

[fuel pump]

Here is a car I built a few years ago and is still one of my all time favorites. So much has been written about these cars because of the great story involved but also because of the timeless style these cars exhibit. As many times as I see a real one or even a reproduction, I still get exhited. Some things never change.... and never should

[Flat Ernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a car I built a few years ago and is still one of my all time favorites.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a beautiful car, fuel pump. I love the Cobras as well & damn near bought a Factory Five car - neat concept. Not quite as accurate as an ERA or the other high-dollar cars, but well engineered & affordable. I still keep my '83 GT w/all the upgraded parts as a driving donor! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Maybe one day...


http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[hotrodA]

THIS is why I like the HAMB.
Serious, intelligent, mature discussion about traditonal engineering, design, form and function.
NOT some senseless drivel over some POS cartoon car or groupie fashion statement.
Traditonalists follow many disciplines, whether they be automobiles, aircraft, trains, architecture or even furniture.

Thanks for the leadership, Ryan. Keep it up.

Hope you get to feeling better (or maybe not, if this is the result) http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[kustombuilder]

[ QUOTE ]
THIS is why I like the HAMB.
Serious, intelligent, mature discussion about traditonal engineering, design, form and function.
NOT some senseless drivel over some POS cartoon car or groupie fashion statement.
Traditonalists follow many disciplines, whether they be automobiles, aircraft, trains, architecture or even furniture.

Thanks for the leadership, Ryan. Keep it up.

Hope you get to feeling better (or maybe not, if this is the result) http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


i second that. great thread, cool topic and no drama. keep em coming, i've saved just about every pic posted so far. i love this stuff!!

[Kilroy]

I've been thinking about this post for the last few days...

I've been stuck in limbo with my hot rod project for years now. I gathered some decent drive train parts but I've been agonizing about the body forever. I'd like to build a hot rod but I want something original so I can't decide what the hell to do. I've almost plunked down my money lots of times but didn't because I felt like I was compromising. I know I want to run a 3/4-full race flathead, that's about it. Every time I build the car in my head I end up with some crazy assed combination of lakester/Road-Racer/dirt-tracker/Street Rod.

So that brings me to the problem that relates to this post. I keep coming back to making my own body/frame design. But when I envision the completed product in my mind, it doesn't feel right. I think I know now why.

It comes down to balancing that "purpose-built race car" feel with the road car reality. Take the Dick flint roadster as an example...

As far as I'm concerned, that's about as far as you can go with the racifying of a streetcar with old ford parts. It has decent proportions, it looks fast and no-nonsense, it's about as uncluttered as you can get, and you can drive it anywhere, which should be the ultimate goal for you if you are truly going to build a car that fit's in anywhere with traditional American Hot Rods. And that's something else to remember/honor...

One of the major reasons we're into this it that it's a Uniquely American endeavor. Hot Rodding is part of our roots as Americans. That's why the Europeans and Japanese love it too. They are probably much better versed in racecar design than we are but the choose to build a rickety Model A for the style, feel, and history that it represents.

Now take a car like the Miller/Olds Streamliner...

It's about as beautiful as you can get for an American "purpose-built race car." (Be honest, you think Old Yeller is butt-ugly too right.) It is perfectly formed for what its intended use is and it apes the MB's pretty well for a Yank. I think the thing is fucking gorgeous but I think you'd look like a big dork driving it on the street even if you could get it truly road-worthy.

The problem is that in order to build a car that is respectably close in design and beauty to the MB racecars, you pretty much have to build an actual purpose-built racecar. If you don't go far enough the car will give you away as a poseur. But if you go all the way it will look about as at home on the street as a 32 roadster would at the Indy 500.

It would almost have to be as over-the-top as Leno's beast to pull it off. I like that thing by the way. It is a purpose built car and that shows. It was intended to shock and it does.

So I think it all comes down to the whole "Purpose-Built" thing. It's a single-mindedness of vision. If you want to race that comes through in your design. If you want a street Rod, that comes through also. You can share design elements but as soon as you do, you start to compromise. That's not necessarily a bad thing but if you get too close to one extreme or the other the feeling that you car embodies will be confused. You'll have a "streetified/'detuned' (what a fucking awful word!) Race car" or a "raced out cartoonish hot-rod." I won't even talk about trying to build a car that looks like a respectable facsimile of a 30's/40's racecar with some coil-overs, and budnicks.

All of which I put forth as the central challenge, not a roadblock. Some people pull it off pretty well. The Lattin/Offy modified for example (will somebody please tell him how flaming-gay the new air-brushed flames look on it) pulls it off quite well. Rogue's new RPU kicks ass although I think it's a little low for my tastes but I still like it. Also the 49-51 Chevy speedster that used to be in West-Coast Scrap metal, that has the Jag 6 in it and the buick hood for the tail, gets pretty close (it will be done one day, I have faith). But for me, in all the times I've built my dream car, the end product hasn't quite worked for me. At this rate, my kids will take the maiden voyage in my car to spread my ashes at Muroc.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

There's something to be said for a Model-A hot rod...

[beatnik]

Cool Pic's NealinCA, a bunch of us were at a show a few weeks ago, and saw some similar early race cars. Something like that with a saltlake stance and flathead power could be really it, if done right.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v294/beatnik/eyes006.jpg
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v294/beatnik/eyes007.jpg

[Artiki]

The '30's Euro look could well be a winner, but personally I'd like to see the hobby look at earlier works. The Hop Up annuals have recently been featuring a few early T's such as those above this post. They are fuckin' knock-out in my book.
At this years Nostalgia Nats in the UK this turned up on the Sunday. It absolutely took my breathe away. I reckon rodding could do a lot worse than look at even earlier cars than we do now.

[Artiki]

It trashed it's trans on it's first run, so no time available. But hey, he was out there, having a ball.

[The37Kid]

Artiki, Thought you'd like this photo of a Mercer Raceabout with full road equipment. Got a ride in one two years ago, next best thing to driving one.

[Broman]

I think Surf Monkey's example was the closest to what I would build. It would take some major metalwork and engineering to make all of the mods though.

The Mercedes have a long nose - like a 60's rail job. The visual weight is at least 60/40. and the belt-line is low. They also have a very small appearing cabin space (again like the dragsters). So we'd have to section a good 5 inches out of the roadster first. Then shorten the car in the door area a little. Roll the edges of the doors up and over (shutting out some of the cockpit). A couple of those race inspired headrest blisters that flow down the back of the trunk area. Next the cowl would be lengthened a few inches and the hood ass well to help make the blend more natural. I am guessing a tube frame would be easier to build from scratch than modifying the stocker. Top it of with the custom nose and some neat tires/rims and we are making progress........

O' course I'd need a bunch more talent and the time to match, but it could be done. The upside is that you could still call it a hot rod Ford and run a flattie if you want the sound there. It would be uncomfortable probably (cramped at least)and ride like a lumberwagon, but hey doesn't every racecar?

You'll have to scroll up and down to compare...

[Ryan]

That's the idea broman... Not too far off at all...

[DrJ]

Be very careful with the details of a venture down this style road, I just thought what a stretched coupe with pontoon fenders would look like if not careful and "The Dobie Gillis Special" came to mind... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Flat Ernie]

Like this?

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Munson]

Can't knock any automobile built in germany...

Off topic but I think some may enjoy...

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v297/MunsonAutomotive/Other%20rigs/bowrey2_f.jpg

[Skate Fink]

.........this "project" requires a Monster Garage type team build. Roth, Cole, Tardell, that old gentleman that does the metal work on the Boyd cars and throw in Clark Bates to keep it "real." http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

.......good luck with the back Ryan. That sucks! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[4t64rd]

All I did was extend the front end behind the front wheels about 8", chopped the top about 3" in the 4" in the back, removed the front turn signals and add skirts. If you squint, it's a mini 50 Merc Kustom. Add a number to the door and go racing.

[The37Kid]

I hope everyone knows that the "Dobie Gillis Car" is the Art Christman Bonneville car after Barris got it. It is restored to its racing look now.

[DrJ]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope everyone knows that the "Dobie Gillis Car" is the Art Christman Bonneville car after Barris got it. It is restored to its racing look now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, we know. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

I was only making that point because it would be really easy to go from the tasteful streamlined lines of the '30s race cars pictured to something an over the hill movie star might think is just the glitzy thing to get rediscovered on Hollywood Blvd.
That's all.
Personally I think "Scrape" is real close to being that far over the top into that glitz factor.
The only thing saving it is the fairly plain and traditional black & white T & R inside.

[av8]

Thank you, Ryan, for beginning one of the more interesting and important threads on the HAMB in recent weeks.

Like most rodders my age who grew up on the West Coast my hot-rodding experiences and interests are rather broad. Lakes and drag racing were only part of the scene, and organized cruise nights and weekend-long events where rodders gather to park and do nothing other than eat, drink, and strike a pose appropriate to their niche in the game weren’t even on our mental radar. We were far too busy experiencing the many iterations of hot rod competition first hand, either as spectators or participants.

We watched the midgets on the boardtrack in the Rose Bowl and on dirt at Carrell Speedway. We cheered the track roadsters at Western Speedway, Ascot, Balboa Stadium, and Saugus. Palm Springs, Torrey Pines, Pomona, Santa Barbara, Hansen Dam, Paramount Ranch, Willow Springs, and Riverside kept us interested and excited in automobile and motorcycle road racing. And if we had any energy or time left over it might be spent at Marine Stadium in Long Beach where the hot rods had no wheels but were hot rods nonetheless. And, of course, we drag raced and went to the lakes. (The scene at that time is no better presented in a single document than it is in Mark Morton’s “HOP UP: The First Twelve Issues.”)

In time we’d find one or more of these hot-rod expressions to participate in ourselves, and while that might curtail some of our interest in the other forms, they weren’t completely cast aside; we still enjoyed those forms we weren’t actively competing in.

With that kind of exposure it’s natural for me to be interested in much more than the very narrow focus of hot rodding today. As much as I love the traditional straight-line coupes and roadsters of the ‘40s and ‘50s, the current concentration on that form, to the near exclusion of all other expressions, stifles the growth and development of hot rodding other than for style and image . . . and not all of that is positive.

I’m surprised that there hasn’t been serious interest in building streetable sports racers like those of the ‘50s, cars like the Baldwin Special, the Cannon Special, the early versions of Ol’ Yaller, Ken Miles’ MG special (with a modern four-banger), and Duff Livingston’s T roadster and Ak Miller’s “Caballo.” (Duff’s roadster does live again, restored to its late ‘50s setup and is still able to kick European pricey sporty car butt in vintage racing. “Caballo” was fully cannibalized early on, but was expertly recreated by Vern Tardel about 15 years ago to the extent that everyone now thinks it’s the original.)

I’d very much like to see something long-term come of this thread, Ryan, maybe an occasional week of “Sports Racer Tech,” with all interested parties sharing their original ideas as well as those from the past. Thanks for the thread.


Duff's TIHSEPA II
http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4830291/61184544.jpg


http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4830291/61184533.jpg


Caballo trailing an Allard
http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4830291/61188354.jpg


Upgraded old sports racer
http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4830291/61187978.jpg


http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4830291/61187968.jpg

[metalshapes]

[ QUOTE ]


I’m surprised that there hasn’t been serious interest in building streetable sports racers like those of the ‘50s, cars like the Baldwin Special, the Cannon Special, the early versions of Ol’ Yaller, Ken Miles’ MG special (with a modern four-banger), and Duff Livingston’s T roadster and Ak Miller’s “Caballo.”



[/ QUOTE ]

I am not...
I equally love Road track racers and Hot Rods, so I have friends in both groups.
Not only does there seem to be very little comunication between the two groups, it seems to go deeper than that.
As far as ridiculing each others sport and outright hostillity...
As both racing forms got more specialised, the in beween area fell away...
It used to be you could take a Road Track car to a Drag race to test it ( Max Balchowski did it...) or a Drag car to Bonneville , and nobody got offended.
(Although I did see a guy unload his Ford GT40 at Bonneville on his way back from Monterey once, he was going to change LSR Racing as we know it, that was hilairious...)

The cars you mentioned are sort of lost in the middle and that is to bad.
Maybe it is up to us to start building cars like that again...

[SlowLearner]

I'm REALLY enjoying this post. Especially the track roadster and road race specials. Here's a recent pick of Phil Payne's Willis Baldwin Special at the Pebble Beach Concours:

http://www.pebblebeachconcours.net/images/S3.jpg

I still think think one of the prettiest flathead (well...Ardun) sports racers is the Norwegian(!) one posted by AV8 Rider about a year ago. Would love to see more pics of that (Maserati grill and all).

Here's a close up. (They're ALL close ups.) (Sorry about the pic size)

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/image_uploads/51132-Gregers-racer1.JPG

Beautiful workmanship.

Here's the entire thread (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=51132&page=&view=&sb=5&o= &fpart=all&vc=1) (pictures still intact!) for those who may have missed it.

And about the long purposeful look with wheel fairings, don't forget Frank Lockhart's 1928 LSR Stutz Black Hawk Special. Talk about looking purposeful!!!
Here's a pic of the replica:
http://www.vscr.org/Graphics/FallFestival/FallFest56.jpg

And, despite the Stutz sponsor name, the car was Miller engined. Frank took TWO miller I-8's and made a (I think) V-16. Laminar(!) flow radiator on the hood sides. Like the later Supermarine Schneider Trophy seaplane racers. Reached over 200 mph before his second (fatal) crash.

[av8]

metalshapes -- Your view and experiences with each of the groups, hot rods and sports racers, isn't even close to mine. I'm guessing you are probably a lot younger than I and most of the folks I hang out with.

In 1997 I took a pass on Speed Week (none in our crowd was running a car that year), and spent the time at the Monterey Historic Races. I was there from Wednesday on through the weekend, hanging out with a hot-rodding pal who lived in Carmel. I drove my roadster down from Santa Rosa and it was our only transportation for the week, day and night. Imagine that, a traditional flathead-powered AV8 mingling with all those high-zoot vintage sports cars.

Truth to tell, the little blue roadster was treated like the second coming! By the time I headed back to Santa Rosa on Sunday evening I was worn out from responding to all the thumbs-up attaboys, waves, flashed headlights, and shouts of approval that were part of any excursion we made out onto the roads and streets of the Monterey penninsula during the week. I was hoarse from talking about the car and the old days and how much we all missed them!

At the track, Laguna Seca, I had no special parking permit, but I couldn't have parked in a regular lot if my life depended on it. Each time a traffic monitor spotted the little hot rod in a traffic queue I was directed into a special lane and eventually herded into a very special parking area, close to the track, where I was assured that my car would be well looked after.

So much for "outright hostility" toward hot rods from the vintage sporty car crowd.

My primarly hot-rodding pals of my age group feel as warm and charitable toward sporty cars as those folks do toward us. If there is a problem with fear and loathing from either side it has to come from the young crowd. That's not our scene. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The type of cars I mentioned need not be lost in the middle. They are simple, affordable, core road-racing hot rods that can be built as affordably today as they were back then.

You're right, it is up to us to start building cars like that again -- no "maybes" about it!

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4830291/61184189.jpg

[av8]

SlowLearner -- Here's my favorite Frank Lockhart Miller, the one in which Lockhart's improvements were incorporated, tested, and proven.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4830291/61214296.jpg

And just in case you want to build an accurate copy of the frame and body, here's a Leo Goosen drawing that will get you most of the way home.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4830291/61214305.jpg

[oldchevyseller]

some thing along this line would be fun ,a little roadster coupe ,or section it , this car is quite rare but gives a look of a roadster http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif 1937 English Ford 7W "Ten" Tourer, dig those doors ,seems to me that would need a photo shop session ,put them on a 35 to 37 convert, i agree with your comments but yet don't know at what point i can think of a formed body ,or cutting up a existing model to change it is considered the same thing?

[SlowLearner]

Thanks AV8.

Also, may I submit for the true metalsmiths, some serious (pre-war) italian body work. The 1938 Alfa Corsa was a fiercely fast car, and (IMHO) absolutely the high point of the prewar roadster concept. Before all the (little) barchettas.

http://www.corsaphotos.com/albums/album08/6c2500_010.sized.jpg

and another

http://www.corsaphotos.com/albums/album08/6c2500_014.sized.jpg

and the tail

http://www.corsaphotos.com/albums/album08/6c2500_015.sized.jpg

WOW!!

Here's a link to more pics. (http://www.corsaphotos.com/gallery/album08)

Is this (backyard) doable?? I'd like to think so. Keith

[haring]

WOW!

That is gorgeous. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

http://www.corsaphotos.com/albums/album08/6c2500_010.sized.jpg


Regarding early cars such as the one AV8 Mike posted:

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4830291/61214296.jpg

My favorite styling detail is the cowl, and how it is radiused to essentially house the steering wheel. Built for a purpose, but aesthetically beautiful in the end.

I would love to build a car in this style, but would want to share the fun with a passenger. I have seen variations on two-seater versions. I don't know much about early racing but I'm assuming that the two-seaters were perhaps for rally events where a navagator was used? Please educate me, and above all, post some pictures if you have examples. How about staggered seating or inline, one in front of the other?

[av8]

SlowLearner, Haring -- Thought you might enjoy this SWB (called just "short" at the time) 8C 2900 spyder. This is a very do-able car with 'glass fenders, nose, and tail . . . even better in aluminum.

Just imagine some of the simple tube-frame chassis you could wrap with this gorgeous body work . . .

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4830291/61234350.jpg

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4830291/61234339.jpg

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4830291/61234326.jpg

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4830291/61234355.jpg

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4830291/61234343.jpg

[PEDDRO]

Form follows function. Easy. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Where's the car designer's here? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[metalshapes]

[ QUOTE ]
metalshapes -- Your view and experiences with each of the groups, hot rods and sports racers, isn't even close to mine. I'm guessing you are probably a lot younger than I and most of the folks I hang out with.




[/ QUOTE ]

You are half right...
I am younger than you, but the people I hang out with are my age, younger than me and some of them are probably your senior by quite a bit...
Besides, the people I hang out with are not the people I was talking about necissarily...
When I spent a lot of time on the European road tracks pitting and wrenching on Vintage Race Cars, I felt like I had to defend myself for loving Hot Rods.
And the treatment I got when I tried to talk about doing a couple of test runs at a "run what you brung/friday night drag event" with one of my Road Track cars, did not make me believe these people were any more openminded.

If your experiences are different, that's great.
That makes me hopefull that things are improving, or that my experiences were a fluke...

So lets start building these cars...

[Drewfus]

Whilst I tend to think the following are 'bridges' between themes, they are all true pioneers, and my inspiration for my current build Arpu.....

(thanks to Don and AV8 for the images via the HAMB)

Cheers,

Drewfus http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Drewfus]

slick, looks....

[Drewfus]

fast standing.....

[Drewfus]

still.

Cheers,

Drewfus http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[I go pogo]

[ QUOTE ]
some thing along this line would be fun ,a little roadster coupe ,or section it , this car is quite rare but gives a look of a roadster http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif 1937 English Ford 7W "Ten" Tourer, dig those doors ,seems to me that would need a photo shop session ,put them on a 35 to 37 convert, i agree with your comments but yet don't know at what point i can think of a formed body ,or cutting up a existing model to change it is considered the same thing?

[/ QUOTE ]I grew up to the sound of a flatty, balls out on the water at Marine Stadium and I love that sound. I all so love the sound of a formula one engin as it accelerates out of a turn or a top fuel digger comming off the line.The internal combustion engin may not be vary efficient but it's a thing of beauty. My back allso hurts. I' going to the chiropractor tomorrow. pogo

[Jeff Norwell]

I aint no pabst blue ribbon boy.......one word....Vern Tardel....keeps the traditional torch burning.....end of story

[Nads]

There was of course another influence shaping those
Mercedes Benz racers during the '30s and '40s, it was
the idea of Teutonic supremacy. And the truth is, they won
in that automotive sense.
I think that idea lingers on in the MB psyche, and they're
still building superior cars and making the marques they
sucked into their empire better than ever.
With few exceptions, American and British cars didn't have
that cold hearted scientific look to them. There's a reason
they look the way they do, it was a time of war and there's
no denying that MB engineers had mandates that were politically thrust on them to create the most menacing
vehicles seen thus far.

I still like them regardless.

I'd still like a Phantom Corsair though.

[Sailor]

Lookheed Lightning for me..

Otherwise I think you are sorta right, Nads. I have (of all things) read Albert Speers selfbiography; and it seems to me that Hitler was very much into the idea of german cars being the worlds best, fastest, most impressive etc. (his and Albert Speers joint efforts to create an equally impressive architecture in these years was a disaster, though.. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif ). It was during these years that Germany started up the huge autobahn-projects in a scale which were unheard of in most other european countries. Also; what applies the Mercedes-racers seems to apply to other german race-cars like Auto Union. Im not really an expert in this stuff but I think there were several hillclimbs arranged in Germany where these cars were used, and that famous drivers like Karl Kling first became famous in these years.

[av8]

Metalshapes -- I guess our experiences are really very different. I have no experience with the vintage racing scene in Europe, so your experiences are no more a fluke given your point of reference than are mine. I thought I'd made a positive point about the crossover attitudes here. I'm certainly hopeful, although I don't know what we might do to turn attitudes around in Europe, and I'm not sure that that's our mission to do. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Yes, let's do start building these cars. Turning right and left quickly, at speed, can be just as addictive as going quick and fast in a straight line.

[cleatus]

I love this post - hot rodders talking more like customizers - about beautiful shapes, form and such. Traditional does not have to mean constrained to repeat what has already been done.

Now we know why pain meds are so addictive.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

av8 writes : "Yes, let's do start building these cars. Turning right and left quickly, at speed, can be just as addictive as going quick and fast in a straight line."

Amen !!!

[Ryan]

I have two dream cars...

1. It's in Keith Tardel's shop right now - a full-out flathead powered b-ville race car... Late 40's style.

2. An American entry into the 1939 Monaco Grand Prix... or what would have been. I envision a flathead powered formula car built on a tube chassis with aluminium body. Details are formulating in my induced head as we speak.

The Germans were building intimidating cars for a reason in the late 30's... I've done a lot of reading on "influence by form of the 3rd reich". Quite frankly, they were brilliant marketers. All that said, when it comes down to it NOBODY has ever built anything more perfect or more balanced than a p51 Mustang. Those German fuckers learned that the hard way.

BTW, I am a closet Mercedes freak... Got it from my dad. I even dream of late model AMG equipped cars. They build hot rods like detroit did in the 60s.

[bobbleed]

I've got plans, big plans.

I loose sleep over it nightly.

I'm collecting the parts to build a radical coupe that will be firmly grounded in tradition, but push those traditions to a place they have never been.

Hopefully I will be started on it over winter, I've almost got all the pieces......................

My eyes are heavy.

[praisethelowered]

Can't wait to see it Bob.

[metalshapes]

I don't know if this car is enough of a Sports Rod to be on this post, But I did the Body modifications on this '55 Sunbeam a couple of years ago for a guy here in Tucson.
He had plans for a quad Weber SBF, and it had Fatman MII IFS.
If followed me around as I switched jobs a couple of times, but I think it's in PHX now...

[metalshapes]

.

[Flat Ernie]

[ QUOTE ]
when it comes down to it NOBODY has ever built anything more perfect or more balanced than a p51 Mustang

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I believe the late Spitfire to be a prettier airplane - I think it's in the wings. The P51 had squared off wings that looked "clipped" from the factory, but the Spit had those beautiful elliptical wings - symmetry almost always looks good!

But that's just an opinion...

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[MIKE-3137]

I'm lovin this post..keep em coming.

[Nads]

metalshapes, that's some amazing metalwork buddy. I love that car.

[Killer]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/akakiller56/leftwelded01.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/akakiller56/rearwelded01.jpg

[Flexicoker]

I like these
http://www.sportcraftcars.com/carousel/car4553d.jpg
http://www.color-ite.com/Image54.gif
http://photos.nondot.org/2001-10-03-Ohio-Trip/2001-10-12%20-%20Indianapolis%20Race%20Museum/normal/1951b%20-%20Lee%20Wallard%20-%20%2399%20Belanger%20Special.jpg

[4t64rd]

Metalshapes, in first picture of the Sunbeam, do I recognize the chrome bit inside the center grill area as some of Ford's design staffs more embarrassing work or is it a smilarly shaped Sunbeam piece.

[metalshapes]

Thank you Nads.
4t, you saw it right... Its a Edsel Grille...
I will make a Track nose for a fenderless car some day with one in it, I think they have a nice shape...

[Flexicoker]

mas
http://members.aol.com/jarjkr1/98jr.jpg
http://members.aol.com/jarjkr1/agab.jpg
http://members.aol.com/jarjkr1/76leit.jpg
http://members.aol.com/jarjkr3/naz83win.jpg

[Anderson]

http://cms.zombiehotrodwear.com/userdir/medcrazycar.jpg

[4t64rd]

So I'm not insane...I even like the 59: But plans have changed, it's no longer going to be a tub, it's a 27 roadster, free standing headlights, and wishbones and radius rods. Cris Craft style windshield. I'd love to get a set of those hole-less Halibrands like on that Bardahl racer, but they are WAY out of my league.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

My street-legal racer in its sprint car configuration will look just like this one. You will see no headlights as they retract into the nose for daytime driving and the tail lights and turn signals will be disguised in the bumper systems.

I have better-looking wheels..... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Broman]

[ QUOTE ]
That's the idea broman... Not too far off at all...

--------------------
Ryan Cochran
The Jalopy Journal

Skating the same line since 1976...


[/ QUOTE ]


So do I win something? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Slowlearner - I've never seen one of those, that is a beautiful car - DAMN.

It doesn't have that race inspired spirt of the cars that Ryan posted but damn is that ever pretty....

[Smokin Joe]

Been looking for this car because I think it fits this thread. Then he showed up at cruise night last night. Wish you could see it with the boat tail body on it. I'll put it up when he gets it painted and back together. If this guy isn't a traditional rodder, I don't know who is. Even with the choice of modern/almost free components. Personally I love it for the sheer Do It Yourself attitude of it.

Before you laugh let me tell you about this one. The guy always liked the look of boat tailed sports cars but couldn't afford one so he built this from a picture in a book. The frame is a cut, bent, spliced 35 International pickup frame formed to fit the body. He hand hammer built a boat tail body, firewall and dash from flat sheet. Rear end and select parts are from a wrecked S-10. The rest is a turbocharged four-banger and whatnot from an 85 mercury in his back yard. Gas tank is a pony keg. Body is off right now getting painted at home. He DROVE this to cruise night. Go ahead and laugh if you can do better with less!
More pics of it here... http://public.fotki.com/SmokinJoe/cruise_night_at_scottys/


http://images6.fotki.com/v86/photos/2/213943/1176523/IMG_1027-vi.jpg

[Broman]

I am HATING the front susp. on that, but damn it still is cool because he did it the hardest way possible. If he covers up the front-end with sheetmetal I might still dig it. Not that I could do any better (yet). It needs wire wheels too...

[Hot Rod Ron]

This post is really good but I have seen first hand and traveled in a hot rod/race car that you all seek. That car is Metalshapes Roadster. For all of you going to the HAMB drags bring lots of film because his car blurs the so-called lines of this discussion. Metalshapes car is VERY fast and with his driving/racing skills behind the wheel its the best E-ticket ride in town. I feel that when you combine the knowledge and skill of building race cars like the ones pictured in this post, and building hot rods that we all like here, is the best combination you can have and to expereince it first hand in a car like Metalshapes is the full on E-ticket. To bad some of the magazines can't see this.

[SlowLearner]

Thanks for those pix Smokin Joe. Gives me hope. Working on(scrounging for) a 29-30 (Le Mans)Bentley sorta thing, based on a 36 Packard frame. Solid front axle, but otherwise, sorta like that build.
Now I need a bunch of 21 inch wire wheels! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Smokin Joe]

Broman there's a sheet that wraps between the front frame horns covering up that rack. I agree on the wheels & tires. Those were handy off the donor car tho. I think the only things he's really bought for the car are the guages and the Alfa Romeo badge on the radiator and the sheets for the body. Oh, and a chunk of nice plywood for the dash. Everything else is off the junkers in the back yard. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Deuce Rails]

Smokin Joe,

I would love to see that car with its boat tail body work.

Here's my dream from the side:

[Deuce Rails]

And from the rear:

[Deuce Rails]

And the small progress I've made:

[Boones]

AMG's are wonderful conversions if that is the right word for it. While in College I worked at a shop and one of our Customers had a 560SEC AMG.. what a car, I used to love getting the call to come get it and rotate the tires.. it was a wonderful driving car. (I drove it like a baby as I did not want to take a chance in doing anything to it).. It was involved in an little accident so while it was getting fixed the owner dropped by and gave me one the AMG emblem off the trunk (he was getting a new one). I still have it (its sitting in the top draw of my computer desk.).

[Ryan]

.

[Ryan]

..

[DrJ]

You sayin you are stretching your definition of "Traditional hotrods" from this idea
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/image_uploads/480744-Mvc-014f.jpg
to add a Porsche Spyder?

I've always thought track "tuned" sports cars or any tuned for racing cars were "hotrods" anyway..but...(Still on the meds?) are we moving into anything "pre-smog" and after manufacture high-performance?

[SinisterCustom]

THAT'S IT! I love 550 spyders. They were built for one thing, winning races. The germans are the best at engineering and Dr. Porsche was the Man. He worked on the Mercedes and the Autocars and designed some revolutionary equipment. Ryan's line of thinking here kicks ass. I couldn't do it. I'm too much old school. I hate technology. Hell, I hate this computer! lol.

I like my low tech, bare bones, american iron.

[DrJ]

Porsche designed his flat-motor in 1912,. How much more Old School can ya get ?

[SinisterCustom]

Porsche was a genious. You and I are not. Just because something is old doesn't mean its old school. It was revolutionary when originally designed, unlike american race cars which were mostly homebuilt and somewhat crude. Very rarely would an American auto win a prestigious race. Racing was so much more popular in Europe.

[av8]

Certainly not as wonderful as a real RSK550 Spyder, the Beck Spyder is probably not far off the mark in terms of performance. At around $25,000 turnkey, it's a fraction of what the original sells for today.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4830291/61682883.jpg


http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4830291/61682888.jpg


http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4830291/61682877.jpg


http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL64/2013751/4830291/61682869.jpg

[metalshapes]

[ QUOTE ]
unlike american race cars which were mostly homebuilt and somewhat crude.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you are not including the Novi Indy cars, Lance Reventlow's Scarabs and Jim Hall's Chaparrals in that...
Jim Hall was not the first guy to put a upside down airplane airfoil on a car, but he developed the idea untill it could not be ignored anymore.
My guess it that the man belongs in the short list of genius car builders, with Ettore Bugatti, Colin Chapman, Ferdinand Porsche and a few others...

Edit,
I did not look this up so I could be wrong, but I dont think that Ferdinand Porsche was involved with the 550 at all.
I believe he spent some time in a French prison cell after the war, and he did not do much designing after that.
It was probably his son Ferry...

[RocketDaemon]

this page has some pics in another direction that also is awesome

http://www.pierluigisurace.it/imagerie/transp0002.htm

[SlowLearner]

Since we're talking "aerodynamic", and "pure function", permit me to offer some "non-Aryan" http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif variations. Don't get me wrong, German cars are great, (Hell, I still mourn my old turbo-Audi 5000 Quattro, that temperamental bitch-goddess gave me the greatest drives of my life), but sometimes they just lack some FUNK (funny, cuz it's a German word).

Ryan, for pure silver form, how about a 1956(!) Lotus Eleven?

http://photo.popmonkey.com/9905wineclassic/9905group2/big/9905G2_116_Lotus_11_LM.jpg

Or, here it is in road-going form:

http://membres.lycos.fr/classicauto/images/uk/ukclas/lotus56.jpg

Or, one of my all-time favorites, a C-type Jag (1952)

http://www.ritzsite.net/Loo1999/Jaguar_C_type_1952.jpg

Continuing with our metallic theme, how about the Miller Golden Submarine?

http://www.vintageracecars.com/sub2.jpg

more on that here (http://www.vintageracecars.com/sub.htm)

And, back to silver.............we are talking FUNKY!!!
Gabriel Voisin's "Laboratoire"! (1923)

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/automobiles-voisin/Images/gv015.jpg

More on that bad boy here (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/automobiles-voisin/C_6.html) (ya don't need French for the pictures).
Maybe even I could do the metal work on that "cubist" hallucination.

Okay, I'll stop for now, this thread has really got me going.

[46stude]

Found this in my Dec 1960 Car Craft.

[SinisterCustom]

Your right, Ferry Porsche was responsible for the early cars.
I also agree with your Jim Hall comments. Truly great racing cars.

[The37Kid]

The Voisin look is going to take me another 40+ years to get used to. Hope this form follows function shot us more pleasing. Note how the late '30's -'40's over the frame flow of the body matches the ARDUN V-8-60 rocker covers.

[The37Kid]

Up close!

[oldchevyseller]

i thought this new VOLVO TANDEM fit a few questions that were posted , about a tandem seat car ,with areo looks, kind of wierd to see everyone thinking about this ,

[oldchevyseller]

[Zodoff]

Bob Rufi.

[CRAP]

[CRAP]

pure sex

[Kev Nemo]

I'm sorry but does anyone else think it's just sick and wrong that 'Agent Cody Banks'Frankie Munez of 'Malcolm in the Middle' had a 550 Spyder when he was 16?I saw the episode of 'Punk'd' where they pretended to steal it. That was hilarious, but at least he was upset about it.

[oldchevyseller]

check out htis car link kid of speaks for it self, 2 seater panel fabbed ,it could be done today and redefine a direction this post has been very good to open up thinking for everyone

http://www.oilstick.com/info/1.html

[oldchevyseller]

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif