351c and 302 ?

[macs55]

My buddy was telling me that a 351c and a 302 have the same motor mounts and that the trannys will bolt right up to eachother. Is this true? I always thought that it was the 351w and the 302, and that the 351c was different. The reason I ask is that I found a cheep runing 302 and was thinking of swapping out my 351c in my truck. Will the 302 just bolt right in or what. Thanks almighty HAMB. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[hillbillyhellcat]

I don't think so. The Cleveland motors are totally different blocks than the SBF. You might be able to get away with using different mounts on the old brackets, I still have doubts. 351C, 351M and 400 all exchange.

[shifts]

Dont know about the mounts, but the tranny will bolt up on a 351C.DAVE

[porknbeaner]

The 351C is a tall deck small block. Some stuff interchanges and some stuff don't
I don't think that the motor mounts are the same but you should be able to scroungs the junkyard for the right stuff to mount it up. If your ride came with a 351C then it most likely came with then low deck small block that same year.

[Narcoleptic]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think so. The Cleveland motors are totally different blocks than the SBF. You might be able to get away with using different mounts on the old brackets, I still have doubts. 351C, 351M and 400 all exchange.

[/ QUOTE ]

The tranny bolt pattern on the 351C is a "small block" pattern shared with the 302/351W and the pattern on the 351/400M is a "big block" pattern shared with the 429/460. The Ms also have a wider lifter valley.

[texastramp]

Do you have a truck that come with a 351C stock/factory?

[AnimalAin]

Not positive, but I think the trucks with these type of motors got 351/400M motors. These are sort of like Cleveland motors, but not exactly. During the time the Cleveland motor was in production, trucks got FE motors.

[Flat Ernie]

Your buddy is 100% correct - it is true. 351C has exact same mounts, mounting locations, & bellhousing bolt patterns & is fully interchangeable with 302. Obviously, headers are drastically different from 351C & 302.

However, NO - I repeat NO - truck came stock with a 351C. If you have a 351C in your truck, it was transplanted in at some other time. Trucks have 351M which are similar to 351C, but not interchangeable. Well, similar is deceiving, the only similarities are the heads. Everything else is different - mounts, bellhousing, etc. So if you really have a 351M, it isn't a straight swap for a 302.

To ID 351C vs 351M - easiest is heads. (Well, easiest is the smog sticker on the stock valve covers if it's still intact.) The forward top/inner corner of the head that is not covered by the valve covers will have a "2" or a "4" cast into it if it is 351C heads. 351M heads won't have this. The next quick visual is the top two bolts of the bellhousing that are usually visible from the engine compartment - if they're about 5" apart, it's a 351C. If they're more like 7" apart, it's a 351M (or 400M).

351M/400M are also physically larger than 351C, but it's hard to compare them w/o one side-by-side.

Good Luck!
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Fat Hack]

Flat Ernie is right...351C, Boss 302, Boss 351, and Windsor based small blocks use the same transmission bellhousing bolt patters, and the same motor mounts, making swaps easy (as far as bolting in the engines go...clearance may be an issue in some cases!).

351M and 400M engines use the 429-460 bellhousing pattern and motor mounts...so a 460 will bolt right up to the existing trans man motor mounts where a 351M or 400M were, and vice-versa.

(Only the earliest 260 and 289 engines had an odd bellhosing bolt pattern unlike the rest of the Windsor and Cleveland engines...they used a five bolt bellhousing, but all other 289,302,255 and 351W and 351C engines can share common transmissions and motor mounts).

It sounds a little confusing till you get used to it...I've been playing with Fords since high school, and now live in Dearborn...you can stop an old lady walking down the street in this town and she'll probably be able to tell you the differences between a Windsor, Cleveland and Modified 351 engine!!

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[macs55]

Cool thanks for all the help on this. I have a 55 ford panel, it origianly came with a y block but I put the 351c in. The motor is really tired and I was hopeing for a quick swap with the least amout of work involved so I can rebuild the 351c and eventually put it back in. And the cost of a rebuild is outa the question right now. I don't think I could stand to have it down for too long. It was down for a week last month and I was going crazy. Well thanks again for the help. VIVA LA HAMB!!!! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Flat Ernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a 55 ford panel, it origianly came with a y block but I put the 351c in.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 302 will drop right in, but your headers & exhaust will be your biggest challenge.

Good Luck

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[mybeatupford]

yeah the headers will be a problem hehe i had a big problem on my 50 with the 351w i couldn't run any headers that were stock i'd have to customize some to fit

[shibby307]

I don't think so. The Cleveland motors are totally different blocks than the SBF. You might be able to get away with using different mounts on the old brackets, I still have doubts. 351C, 351M and 400 all exchange.

its not true that the 351c exchanges alot of parts with the 351m and 400. i know this for a fact. because i was told the same thing. i went to swap my new 351c with my 351m and alot of the brackets were different. and the motor mounts were alot different the bolts on the 351c went in vertically --
and the 351 m mounts go in horizontally. l hope it helps

[lilblacktruck]

I have a 150 lightning with a 351. I replaced the original 351 with a rebuild that developed the same problem in just a few months. I want to change it for a more reliable engine like the 302. I see that it will bolt up to the transmission but I may need to modify the mounts. Will the electronics work with the 302 or would I be better off to carberate?

[alex211]

Nice thread hijack.

[lilblacktruck]

did i do something wrong alex211?

[HOT40ROD]

The 1970 - 72 351 Clevelands have the same motor mount pads and bell housing bolt pattern as the SBF. In 73 they changed the motoer mounts to there own and the ball areas was changed to the 429-460 bell housing bolt pattern. I bolted a lot of early Clevelands in mustangs were either the 302 or 351W was in. The exhaust headers are a completely difference animal. Even the 2V anmd 4v had different size exhaust ports and the 2v headers would not fit the 4v or the other way around.

The first two picture are of the early cleveland and the third is a later clevelands mounts

[CutawayAl]

It wasn't uncommon to put Cleveland heads on a Windsor block. The conversion isn't a major deal.

[hotroddon]

did i do something wrong alex211?

YES. - Your first post was done without any introduction to the HAMB, it was an Off Topic Vehicle taht is not appropriate here (READ THIS http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44274 before posting anything else) not to mention the 351 in a Lightning is a Windsor motor, not a Cleveland or "M" motor and a 302 is in no way more reliable than what you have,

Oh Yeah, and this was a 6 year old thread that he didn't "ADD" any value to as well.

[George]

The 1970 - 72 351 Clevelands have the same motor mount pads and bell housing bolt pattern as the SBF. In 73 they changed the bell areas was changed to the 429-460 bell housing bolt pattern. Nope! As was said earlier all Cs have the SBF bell pattern. Almost all of the 351M/400s have the 429/460 pattern, some 400s made in '73 had the SBF pattern.

[fiveohnick2932]

the 351 in a Lightning is a Windsor motor, not a Cleveland or "M" motor and a 302 is in no way more reliable than what you have,

Correct "o" mundo

when did first gen lightnings become "traditional hot rods"???

[HOT40ROD]

Nope! As was said earlier all Cs have the SBF bell pattern. Almost all of the 351M/400s have the 429/460 pattern, some 400s made in '73 had the SBF pattern.
Sorry I was off one year it was 73. And yes they were 351 M after 73 but a lot of people still call them Clevelands.

[George]

Sorry I was off one year it was 73. And yes they were 351 M after 73 but a lot of people still call them Clevelands.Off by 2 years, the C was made in '74 & used in Torinos & Cougars, ect. The M started in '75.

[HOT40ROD]

Off by 2 years, the C was made in '74 & used in Torinos & Cougars, ect. The M started in '75.

I was talking about the cleveland with sbf bell housing. 74 had the BB bell.

[George]

I was talking about the cleveland with sbf bell housing. 74 had the BB bell.All Cs have the SBF.

[Oilcan Harry]

I've always considered myself a Ford fan but, they just seem to have gone out of their way to make things more complicated? I guess I'm spoiled by so many interchangable parts between Knuckleheads, Panheads, and Shovelheads.

[HOT40ROD]

All Cs have the SBF. The hard core ford guys did not care what year the car was. They would go by the casting numbers and the last year for the SBF bell was the D2 casting . If its a D4 casting it has the BBf bell and a .030 higher deck. You can find D4 with the same cleveland deck because back when this motor was being raced they were hard to get and a lot of guys were taking the D4 blocks and milling the deck.

An the D4 was still called the cleveland. The D5 block was the M block. It made it difficult for buying intakes for these motors.

[tuckpoint]

Listen to your buddy.

[HOT40ROD]

Another origin of the M designation may have come from where the engine blocks were cast. It follows the naming convention set forth by the 351C (Cleveland) cast at the Cleveland Foundry and 351W (Windsor) where the majority of the blocks were cast at the Windsor Casting Plant. From the introduction in the model year 1975, the 351M engine blocks (which are the same as the 400 engine block) were all produced at the Michigan Casting Center (MCC) in Flat Rock, MI or at the Cleveland Foundry (CF) also known as the Cleveland Casting Plant (CCP). To help distinguish it from the other two different 351s, the logical choice was to use the Michigan Casting Center, hence the “M” designation for 351 Michigan.
The 351 Cleveland had a well known, good reputation in the public. For a few of years after the introduction of the 351M, Ford marketing called the engine the "351 Cleveland". This led to confusion as to what 351 version was actually in the vehicle.
Later, car enthusiasts incorrectly referred to this engine as a "351 Midland" presumably a reference to Midland, Michigan, a city just northwest of Saginaw or reference to an iron foundry in Midland, Texas. But the Ford Motor Company never owned a “Midland” factory.

[toddc]

However, NO - I repeat NO - truck came stock with a 351C.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

They did in Australia :D:D:D

[George]

Cs 70-74,are D0 & D2, the Ms 75-80 & 400 71-80 are D1,3,4,5,7,8

[George]

They did in Australia :D:D:DNot to mention 302Cs!:D

[ijuslikefords]

lilblacktruck, I live in Va Bch if your in Williamsburg Virginia, and I have a lightning also. PM me if you need help with your truck, and I'll see what I can do when I'm accually home. I'm curious what issues you have with your truck.

Now, back to your regularly schedueled HAMB...

[HOT40ROD]

Cs 70-74,are D0 & D2, the Ms 75-80 & 400 71-80 are D1,3,4,5,7,8
There was a D3 block that was a cleveland. It was the D3ZE-A and it was a 4 bolt main block. also the D0AE-C was a 4 bolt main block.

The other D3 block were the worse block that Ford built. They had a habit of cracking.

The D4 block was the block of choice. They had the BB bell and a the walls of the bore were straight and there was no issue with boring them .060 which could have been an issue with the early blocks because of alignment issue with the core for the cylinder wall. The D3 block was .030 higher and it would be milled down to the same height as the early Cleveland. And with the BB bell it made it easier to hook a C6 to just because there were a lot more BB C6's the small blocks.

Another thing about the cleveland is that you can find 4 bolt main block in the 2V application.

Now the Assie Cleveland was one of the best Clevelands built.

Also you will find stock 351 M with 351 Cleveland 2V decals on the air cleaners.

Like I said and other said. The true Cleveland all had SB bells But Ford Marketed the 351M as a Cleveland and that were the issue start. I don't know how many times I was told were a 351 C was and it ended up be a 351 M. And yes they did but the D2 block in car until 1974. But they also starting putting the M block in car in 1973. That why I said the hard core Ford guys go by the casting numbers.

And yes the first 400s were small block bells. The block is .500 inch teller deck then the 351 C. The 400 was design to replace the heavy 390 FE motor.

[HOT40ROD]

Like the original poster asked. Yes the True 351 Cleveland will bolt in there a 302 or 351 W was The only issue are exhaust manifolds

[Degenerate]

Sorry to hijack but I see some knowledgeable cleaveland people responding. I just acquired a nice '71 2v cleaveland core. Can the 2v heads work adequate for a little street performance with a little porting? Engine came with an Edlebrock F351 2v intake. I don't have any drag racing in mind.

[HOT40ROD]

Sorry to hijack but I see some knowledgeable cleaveland people responding. I just acquired a nice '71 2v cleaveland core. Can the 2v heads work adequate for a little street performance with a little porting? Engine came with an Edlebrock F351 2v intake. I don't have any drag racing in mind.

The 2v Engine is a better engine for the street. It has smaller runner which will give it more bottom end on the street. They use to restrict the exhaust runner on the 4V heads for low end torque. There was a kit that bolted to the exhaust ports under the header. It would close off the bottom of the runner and make it a D port runner. Do you know what casting numbers are on the heads. Some were close clamber and the others were open clamber which lowered the compression ratio.

[Drive Em]

There was a D3 block that was a cleveland. It was the D3ZE-A and it was a 4 bolt main block. also the D0AE-C was a 4 bolt main block.

The other D3 block were the worse block that Ford built. They had a habit of cracking.

The D4 block was the block of choice. They had the BB bell and a the walls of the bore were straight and there was no issue with boring them .060 which could have been an issue with the early blocks because of alignment issue with the core for the cylinder wall. The D3 block was .030 higher and it would be milled down to the same height as the early Cleveland. And with the BB bell it made it easier to hook a C6 to just because there were a lot more BB C6's the small blocks.

Another thing about the cleveland is that you can find 4 bolt main block in the 2V application.

Now the Assie Cleveland was one of the best Clevelands built.

Also you will find stock 351 M with 351 Cleveland 2V decals on the air cleaners.

Like I said and other said. The true Cleveland all had SB bells But Ford Marketed the 351M as a Cleveland and that were the issue start. I don't know how many times I was told were a 351 C was and it ended up be a 351 M. And yes they did but the D2 block in car until 1974. But they also starting putting the M block in car in 1973. That why I said the hard core Ford guys go by the casting numbers.

And yes the first 400s were small block bells. The block is .500 inch teller deck then the 351 C. The 400 was design to replace the heavy 390 FE motor.

Dude, I have never heard of or seen a Clevo block with a BB bell pattern. I have 12 Clevo blocks in my shed in both 2 a 4 bolt mains and consider myself pretty knowlegeable on the subject.

[HOT40ROD]

Dude, I have never heard of or seen a Clevo block with a BB bell pattern. I have 12 Clevo blocks in my shed in both 2 a 4 bolt mains and consider myself pretty knowlegeable on the subject.

The second to last paragraph I said all the Cleveland were small block bell. Ford marketing is what made the issue.

as for the D4 block it was a M block but racer were using them becuase of the BB bell for the C6 and the cylinder wall were straight so there was no issue with boring them .060.

What I am trying to explain that there are a lot of people think they have Clevelands went they are really M motors.

We raced those motor when they were in there prime. And also have all the factory tech sheets on that motor. We were a factory Ford team and I think Ford would not lie to us.

I also have some motors setting in my shop that most people do not even know Ford made. The 1968 302 tunnel port, head casting C8FE-A and the 1968 Boss 302 . Head cast is C8VE.Those motor were a embarrassment for Ford that the time because the 68 blocks would not hold up to the high RPMs that the motors were putting out. Now you can't find them. The 68 block did not have the extended cylinder wall and the piston would stick out the bottom of the cylinder which made them vibrate and cause them to break.

[MeanGene427]

12.5:1 dry deck TunnelPort 302, one year only, 2x4 intake- there's one still running in the vintage races these days. I still have the Car & Driver from '68 (bought it back then) with the street and track comparison test between the TunnelPort and the cross-rammed Z28- which coincidentally was the first time the public ever saw F60-15 Polyglas tires, on the Mustang- as the scribes said "made the Camaro's E70-15's look like Suzuki tires"
I remember carrying around a 494 CanAm block by sticking my arm down one of the bores, grabbing a main journal, and picking it up, in 1978- yeah, it was light

[good captian]

Do I understand that you did not have 302 clevelands in the states , I am not talking about bosses. 302c are really plentyful in Oz and cheap ,and yes 351 c 4v were standard in F100s here.

[MeanGene427]

[QUOTE=HOT40ROD;6807468
I also have some motors setting in my shop that most people do not even know Ford made. [/QUOTE]

Considering the company I used to keep and cars I got to play in back in the 70's and 80's, I have to admit to being somewhat difficult to impress- and I got rid of most of my Gurney-Eagle (late Weslake) stuff a while back, and the '67 351 block, and just play with the 427 and CJ stuff these days

Got one of these critters?

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL75/2176019/22952565/397907240.jpg

[George]

Do I understand that you did not have 302 clevelands in the states , I am not talking about bosses. 302c are really plentyful in Oz and cheap ,and yes 351 c 4v were standard in F100s here.Right, no 302C here in the States. The only reason you guys in Oz have them is with your small production runs Ford Australia realized they really couldn't justify making 351C & 302Ws. The W was discontinued & the C destroked for commonality of parts.

[George]

There was a D3 block that was a cleveland. It was the D3ZE-A and it was a 4 bolt main block. also the D0AE-C was a 4 bolt main block.

The other D3 block were the worse block that Ford built. They had a habit of cracking.
Like I said and other said. The true Cleveland all had SB bells But Ford Marketed the 351M as a Cleveland and that were the issue start. I don't know how many times I was told were a 351 C was and it ended up be a 351 M. And yes they did but the D2 block in car until 1974. But they also starting putting the M block in car in 1973. That why I said the hard core Ford guys go by the casting numbers.

And yes the first 400s were small block bells. The 1st 400s were 71-2 & had the BB bell, some 400s in 73 had the SB(D3) & some had the BB bell, there were no Ms untill '75. There are D2 Cleveland 2 & 4 bolt mains 71-4.

The second to last paragraph I said all the Cleveland were small block bell. Ford marketing is what made the issue.
What I am trying to explain that there are a lot of people think they have Clevelands went they are really M motors.
If you realize all Cs have the SBF pattern & none of the Ms do then you should have said that, Just because Ford Marketing tried to bullshit people into thinking they have a C when they have an M, plus people assuming it's a C because of simular heads, is no reason to confuse the issue further with somewhat foggy explanations. Kinda like everyone thinking all early Hemis are 392s.

[MeanGene427]

The 1st 400s were 71-2 & had the BB bell, some 400s in 73 had the SB(D3) & some had the BB bell, there were no Ms untill '75. There are D2 Cleveland 2 & 4 bolt mains 71-4.

If you realize all Cs have the SBF pattern & none of the Ms do then you should have said that, Just because Ford Marketing tried to bullshit people into thinking they have a C when they have an M, plus people assuming it's a C because of simular heads, is no reason to confuse the issue further with somewhat foggy explanations. Kinda like everyone thinking all early Hemis are 392s.

Yep, this thread seems to have artificially lived on for quite a while due to "Much ado about bupkus". Most folks think of the two engine "families" by the type of cylinder head, Windsor type or Cleveland (335 series)type- BFD
And after a little research, a lot of that hooey seems to be fairly verbatim from Wiki :rolleyes:

[HOT40ROD]

All I know is that at the beginning of this thread everyone was saying that there were no Clevelands that would fit were a 302 was and I came in to try say that there was and that there was a lot of confusion about the 351 Cleveland. I know we stop campaigning the 351 in 74 and went to the 429 because of the difference blocks and the issue that were happening because of it. And from 74 till now is a long time to remember everything down to the smallest detail.

And for that want to know here is the list of 351 Cleveland blocks.

D0AE-A
D0AE-C
D0AE-E
D0AE-G
D0AE-J
D0AE-L
D2AE-DA
D2AE-CA 71-74 Cobra Jet
D6HM-L Australian No casting numbers but only Ford part number.
D0AE-B
D0AE-D
D0AE-F
D0AE-H
D1ZE-A
D1ZE-B 1971 Boss 351
D2AE-EA 1972 High Output
D3ZE-A