Holley carb is killing me!HEEEEEELP!!

[lulabelle]

OK,I re-built my 600 last week.This is my first carb undertaking.46 Mopar came over to help me get it set up.(thanks again man)The car started right up.John set the floats and so on.When he left it was fine.I then noticed that the linkage was cut off where the kickdown goes.So I proceeded to change the linkage and "shaft"that goes thru the throttle body.I put it all back together and it won't start.I checked 3 times to make sure the gasket was on right.(it is)I have fuel and spark.What am I missing?

[Fat Hack]

Did you get the arm for the accelerator pump back in position on the little plastic cam correctly? If not, you will have no accelerator pump and it will be a bitch to start or drive!

[lulabelle]

Yes.However it is now leaking at a good pace.It was fine before I messed with it. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Fat Hack]

What is leaking and where exactly?

[jalopy43]

What style of fuel inlets? Does it have a single fuel inlet,with a transfer tube to the secondary side? The small "o" rings could be chewed up and causing a leak there. Glenn

[lulabelle]

It has a steady drip from the center of the accel pump.whitch is new.The o rings are new also.Thanks so far for the help!

[jalopy43]

You may have a ruptured accelerator pump diaphram.Even new ones can be easily damaged,when installed. The screws on the acc. pump cover can "grab"the diaphram,and tear it. I always put a little white grease on the screws,and tighten them gently. Glenn

[Detonator]

It would be interesting to do a Holley vs Edelbrock poll here on the HAMB

[Tony]

[ QUOTE ]
It would be interesting to do a Holley vs Edlebrock poll here on the HAMB

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking that as i was reading this.
I had a lot of holley's, and the only time i was happy with them is when the're on a race motor.
They are fairly easily tuned, and have a ton of jets/ valves etc...
But for streetability and reliability, i switched to Carters/ Edelbrocks (made by Weber http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif)..

NO problems at all.

Lulabelle, sorry nothing's coming to mind off hand to help ya man.
All i can say is to start over. Check all the stuff you did..disassemble it and check everything.
It might be right under your nose, but because we get pissed, we may miss it.
Good luck Bro..

Tony.

[Missing Link]

I am sort of confused with the shaft replacement situation. Did you replace the shaft at the carb to intake plenum? The main butterfly shaft? Not quite sure what you did there...
Not to start an argument but your first mistake, imo, was using a Holley. IMO, they suck humungous richard. I will not use a holley carb again. EVER. I went the Carter AFB route (Edlebrock) and the sumbich was 99% out of the box. I have never dealt with a carb finer than that offering. Plain and simple, if you make the correct purchase based on your motor, the Edlebrock offerings are as good as they get. It isn't really answering your question, just kind of stating my past experience. I dealt with many Holley carbs in the past and every one of them has exuded gayness. I'm sure some here will argue my point, but that's cool. It's just my opinion anyway. I just don't dig Holleys (hollies?) I mean they were cool "At the Bus Stop" hanging out with "Carrie Ann" while wearing a black dress, but other than that, IMO they lick camel taint. Paper weights. Sorry I can't help much. Just giving my opinion of Holley carbs. They blow dead dogs... they are a pain in the ass to tune, and a pain in the ass to rebuild. Did I mention that I don't like Holley carbs? The only good Holley died in '59...(r.i.p.)
I'm with PakRat, the Carter carbs are just a better design for the street. Holley carbs are o.k. at WOT but even there I question them.

[Fat Hack]

Replace the accelerator pump diaphram and make sure it is adjusted properly when you put it back together. You'll notice that there is a screw and nut with a spring in the middle that allows you to adjust the height of the actuator on the accelerator pump. At idle, it should barely be touching the pump lever...no tension on the arm at all. If you have it set up so that the accelerator pump is halfway depressed just sitting at idle, you'll surely rupture the fragile diaphram soon!

Holley vs Edelbrock? THose opinions have been expressed here many times. I've run both and could live with either one, but for performance, the Holley wins every time. The Edelbrock is more "idiot proof" and works well on a daily driver where performance isn't the primary goal.

Bring your car to the track with your best tune on an Edelbrock carb...and I'll bolt on and tune a Holley for it. It will be faster with the Holley. I'd leave the Holley on and drive the car home...but the average "not a Holley guy" may fear it and slow the car down to more manageable levels with their comfy Edelbrock. Freedom of choice, man!

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[lulabelle]

Thanks so far guys!I'm going to get back to it soon.I'll keep you posted.

[Fat Hack]

For more info, I dug this old post up for ya...

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=276142&Forum=U BB1&Words=discharge&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpa ge=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=276142&Search=true #Post276142

[Flat Ernie]

As usual, I'm with Hack on this issue - the Holley is a better carb for power & they're usually dependable. Most problems come with "experts" tinkering with them. And contrary to popular opinion, they are very simple carbs.

Another reason it's not apples & apples w/Holley & Edelbrock, they're not flowed at the same rate, so a 600 Holley does not equal a 600 Edelbrock - the Holley is bigger. So folks with small mild engines pop on a 600 Holley & it's too much carb & switch to 600 Edelbrock & it runs sweet - go figure, it's actually a smaller carb (I've hear equivalent of 470 using Holleys flow method). Just one more variable in the argument over which is best - be sure you're talking apples & apples.

Now for your problem - I dont' know what shaft you replaced - if you replaced a throttle shaft you could have all kinds of problems depending on the shaft & the throttle blades.

As for your leaking diaphragm - go to a known good setting. You've got all the right info - put on a known good diaphragm, a dab of grease on the cover screws + a little more on the "button" & adjust it correctly. As Hack mentioned, you want the pump arm to move immediately, but you don't want any pressure on the arm. You lose volume & run the risk of bending your pump arm. Another important check is at WOT, the spring is not coil bound - else it defeats its purpose of protecting the diaphragm & linkage. The pump arms are easily bent.

The Holley is indeed race-bred. The carter/edelbrock/weber is more adjustable, but personally, I don't like messing with expensive metering rods and jets (another reason I don't care for quadra-bogs - they're a fine carb, I just prefer the simplicity of a Holley). I've run both Holley & Edelbrock - both good carbs, but I prefer the Holley any day of the week & twice on Sunday. Simpler & rugged + tuning parts are inexpensive & plentiful.

Just another opinion...

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[lulabelle]

The diaphram looks to be good.It did have constant preassure.Is that why it was leaking?I'm gonna put it back together and adjust it.We'll see. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Flat Ernie]

I've seen 'em go bad right around the button where it's hard to see. If you get it back together & adjusted & it's not leaking - stroke the pump a few times to see if it's going to leak - sometimes it's the movement of the button that does it.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[lulabelle]

I have a parts carb,so I just put another bowl on it.That killed the leak problem.It still won't start.Could it be not enough spark?The timing was set and left alone.

[Dat Dirty Rat]

You didnt get pissed and throw your beer at it did you?? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

XO

Dirty

[scarylarry]

Luckly I'm an idiot, I'll stick with the Edelbrock. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif 240 bucks and youd be drivin' now! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Flat Ernie]

[ QUOTE ]
The car started right up.John set the floats and so on.When he left it was fine.I then noticed that the linkage was cut off where the kickdown goes.So I proceeded to change the linkage and "shaft"that goes thru the throttle body.I put it all back together and it won't start

[/ QUOTE ]

So the carb was fine until you changed out the throttle shaft. How far did you disassemble the carb? You can take the baseplate off w/o getting into the carb.

It should run fine if it was running before. Hard to diagnose w/o seeing it...

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[BigDdy31]

Let me try to address your question first and the hijack question second.

If you changed the shaft along with the linkage that will probably be your problem. (in addition to the ruptured diaphragm) If the shaft is smaller, installed incorrectly, or slightly 'wrong', it's gonna vacuum leak around it and/or cause other problems.

I am surprised that there are people who don't like Holleys. There is nothing wrong with a Carter or Rochester either but if one is mechanically adept enough to first choose the correct Holley for the application, do the initial setup (accel pump, power valve, jets), then fine tune it and leave it alone, it'll work great. Now that works unless you're a guy who messes with his timing all the time and ends up making it backfire through the carb and blowing the power valve once a week. That can be a drag. LOL

[lulabelle]

[ QUOTE ]
Luckly I'm an idiot, I'll stick with the Edelbrock. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif 240 bucks and youd be drivin' now! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]Why didn't you say that in the first place? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[lulabelle]

[ QUOTE ]
If you changed the shaft along with the linkage that will probably be your problem. (in addition to the ruptured diaphragm) If the shaft is smaller, installed incorrectly, or slightly 'wrong', it's gonna vacuum leak around it and/or cause other problems.

[/ QUOTE ]It seemed like an exact fit.

[Mojo]

I wish I could get a q-jet on my ford 302. I really like the way they dump, and they get good milage. I had a eldy-carter on a sbc350, it didn't come in as good as the q-jet, but got much better milage.

I had a q-jet from a olds, it had a three-step secondary linkage. It opened the seconds way too quick, so I filed down the steps a bit, to delay the transition while opening... basically slowed it down. On that sbc, it didn't dump so violently, but my acceleration was seriously improved.

I have a holley 600 on my 302 right now. Seriously needs a rebuild! I'm getting really bad milage right now, i'm certain the carb is pouring down while parked.

[Fat Hack]

Mojo...you can run a q-jet on your Ford...Hell, some early 70s Fords with 429 engines came from the FACTORY with Quadrajets on them!!!

To put one on a 302, you need one of those Q-jet to Holley adapters...most folks buy 'em to put a Holley on a Q-jet intake, but you can flip it over and go the other way in most cases. Knew a guy who ran a tricked Q-jet on a 351W in a Cougar years ago!

[lulabelle]

Allright,I'm gonna change the timing chain-gear to see if that is the problem.If that doesn't do it I'm buying a Honda and taking up basket weaving as a hobby!

[Mojo]

[ QUOTE ]

To put one on a 302, you need one of those Q-jet to Holley adapters...most folks buy 'em to put a Holley on a Q-jet intake, but you can flip it over and go the other way in most cases. Knew a guy who ran a tricked Q-jet on a 351W in a Cougar years ago!



[/ QUOTE ]

Say, you wouldn't have a guesstimate on how thick it is do you? That little mustang i'm driving has a low hood, but i'm betting that q-jets are shorter than holley 4bbls... thanks for the info!

[Flat Ernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Allright,I'm gonna change the timing chain-gear to see if that is the problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK - I'm lost now. You had everything running fine and then took the carb off to change the throttle shaft. Now the car won't start, so you think it's the timing chain? Sorry, but I'm not following your troubleshooting here. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I'd like to help, but there's obviously more going on here than you're telling us if the timing chain is now suspect.... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[lulabelle]

I have fuel-spark at all plugs.I was told that the chain could have jumped a bit due to wear on the gear.I'm willing to try anything at this point.

[Fat Hack]

Mojo...most of those adapter plates are pretty thin...1/2" to 1" usually. Might have to run a short filter or an air cleaner base that is dished to drop down over the carb.

[loudpedal]

[ QUOTE ]
I have fuel-spark at all plugs.I was told that the chain could have jumped a bit due to wear on the gear.I'm willing to try anything at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt it. Look for something else... You said it was running just before you removed the carb., Maybe it's flooded???

I can't resist as long as we are giving carb opinions:

Anyone who commands the theory of the carburator will tell you that any make carb properly chosen for size, and set-up correctly will run fine. However, you have to choose the correct carb for the application. Don't use a Carter on a 4x4 (one that gets used in the mountains) for example. On any sort of an incline, the float bowls will spill fuel into the engine and cause a stalling problem. Use a Holley for the drag strip or street.. I've had good luck with both. For the street, I prefer to use the Qudrajet. It is the most sophisticated and underated PERFORMANCE carburator in the world. David Visord's book on the Q-jet contains mods that will turn a stock Q-jet into a 1050 cfm monster if you need it. I've read his book and tried the mods he suggests, and let me tell you: they work. Talk about a sleeper carb, almost nobody thinks a Q-jet is worth anything....WRONG!

LP

[Flat Ernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I have fuel-spark at all plugs.I was told that the chain could have jumped a bit due to wear on the gear.I'm willing to try anything at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doubtful, very doubtful. Everything was running fine until you pulled the carb apart - I'm betting your problem will be in the carb.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[lulabelle]

Chain and gears are ok.I'm done working on it for a while!Thanks alot for all the help everyone.

[jerry]

do you have another carb you could try on the motor?

couls eliminate alot of questions about the rest of the system.


jerry

[Missing Link]

[ QUOTE ]
they're not flowed at the same rate, so a 600 Holley does not equal a 600 Edelbrock

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting to say the least...I thought 600 cfm was 600 cfm no matter who manufactured the carb. Maybe it is that fuckingly dubious and tremendously floppy metric system going into effect. Yo know, Double it and add thirty... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Next time I buy a carb I will have to axe if it is a metric CFM or a real CFM... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif what the...?...

[jerry]

the cfm ratings advertised are at a certain amount of vacuum. i think holley uses 6 inches of mercury and 3 inches on the 2 bbls they build. ather manufacturers use different vacuum amounts.


jerry

[Hot Rod To Hell]

Actually, it comes down to if it's flowed as just the carb, or with an air horn or velocity stack on it. It also depends on what's BELOW the carb when they do the flow test. The only 2 that I know the process of are the Holleys and the Demons. Holleys are a dry flow, so a 600 cfm carb flows 600 cfm TOTAL, air AND fuel... A Demon is wet flow, so a 600 at Max flows 600 cfm of AIR, and so many cfm of FUEL. The holley doesn't take into account that the fuel will take up some of the available space. I was told by the Demon tech that my 825 cfm Race Demon flows about 1000 cfm by Holleys testing methods! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Too bad I didn't know that BEFORE I spent $700 on a carburetor that's too big! http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Flat Ernie]

[ QUOTE ]
the cfm ratings advertised are at a certain amount of vacuum. i think holley uses 6 inches of mercury and 3 inches on the 2 bbls they build. ather manufacturers use different vacuum amounts.


[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, it comes down to if it's flowed as just the carb, or with an air horn or velocity stack on it. It also depends on what's BELOW the carb when they do the flow test.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're both right & both of those are some of the differences between Holley & Edelbrock. I believe Edelbrock flows theirs at 4" so it's roughly 2/3 the rating of a Holley (there's not a direct relationship, but it's ballpark).

So, no - it's not metric, but your sarcasm is appreciated http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif